Nov-14-2017 11:01 PM
RS suggested 3-4 movies that would come in through the back door to alien. being 2 down, I just cant see him wrapping the prequels up in a way that does alien justice in less than 2 more movies. theres so much to cover that if he squashes it into a single movie, it WILL bomb imo. I doubt wer going to get a prequel to AC as tbh, I don't think Noomi would want to come back n who could blame her after the trashing Prometheus and AC got. I certainly would want nothing to do with it. I agree we need to see the deacon or at least find out its fate and im guessing the last film will see David returning to that area for whatever reason but I do see RS taking us back there. I see awakening catching upto David some years after AC as we follow a human expedition sent by the company to bring back his research but all hell breaks loose between the humans and engineers who have hunted down David. David will inevitably leave that planet and the next film will be near lv223/ lv426. that's what I see coming but it may differ towards its David in the covenant heading towards those moons or even earth
Nov-15-2017 1:34 AM
RS has said many things including that the beast was cooked. I am starting to think an RS Alien movie beyond Awakening could render the franchise cooked.
Nov-15-2017 1:56 AM
imo I would give David and the xenomorph a break in the next movie and focus on the engineer backstory. theres no reason they cant go back to the time when they decided to wipe out mankind.
for example, say the wise men were infact engineers sent to protect jesus? they help raise him as a last chance for man to save himself. they fail and thus the engineers decide to eradicate us. the engineers on earth leave with a handful of humans they deem worthy of 'sacrifice' and head to lv223 and test the goo on the humans. it gets loose etc. now we have a tie in to the hologram in Prometheus and an answer as to what happened at the facility.
maybe something along those lines as im more interested in these questions than seeing a mad android hell bent on taking over the galaxy
Nov-15-2017 6:58 AM
I agree ali81, less than two sequels and it fails. But I don't think he will get funding for two more films because I think these movies are cooked to the general public and will not make the returns Fox needs to justify them...
Nov-15-2017 8:34 AM
ali81 - I mentioned something like this a while back.. I always thought they could make an entire movie out of the LV 223 incident. It would even fit into the whole Alien franchise movie type. It would provide tons of info and detials on the Engineers, while also still maintaining the whole franchise theme of a group of "characters" in a confined area being hunted down by something after some sort of outbreak. Prometheus set it up perfectly, and it would allow so much to be explored with the Engineer side of everything. That could even be used to give their history and where the LV 223 Engineers came from and how they relate to the others.
Nov-15-2017 9:36 AM
Yea Drucea that would have been cool and fresh with the Deacon vs Xenomorph
Nov-15-2017 6:05 PM
Alien Awakening (which was actually Blomkamps Alien 5 title) will most likely be the next movie, RS even let slip that the next movie would be Alien Awakening, and that the order would be Alien Covenant, Alien Awakening and a 3rd movie.
This puts Alien Awakening at a point after Alien Covenant, if they are sticking to this Name, and RS now intends to cut the Xeno down or out, they would be in for some trouble because Awakening would be to do with the Xenomorph, we assume... if its about Awakening as in something else, AI or Engineers then it could wind some fans up.
But they need to understand the ALIEN Prefix is just to suggest the movie ties in with the Franchise, for example ALIEN Covenant was never about Xenomorphs making a Pact/Agreement with anyone. In fact the Title does not seem to even suggest any Covenant had been made at all, aside from a Pact between David and Shaw that David broke... which the movie only shows us the aftermath, and The Crossing Prologue shows us a Covenant had been made between them.
Sadly i dont think we will ever see what happened between Prometheus and Alien Covenant as far as Dr Shaw and the Engineers and David, clues in AC and the extras do suggest not all the Engineers died after Davids Bombardment. But we wont see this explored.... We did hold up hope that the AC Prequel novel would cover this... but the AC Prequel just covers a bit about the Yutani Company, and the Preparations for the Covenant Mission and how someone is trying to sabotage it.. But i have yet to read this... but while its a prequel to Alien Covenant, its only as far as the Covenant Mission and has nothing to do with Aliens (as far as i am aware).
It would be nice to have a Book that explores the events prior to AC surrounded Dr Shaw etc, but i dont think we would see such a thing, But i would be Happy to work on a 10pg plus Synopsis for someone to evolve into a Story ;) I was going to do so, but i never bothered as i thought the ADF Prequel would cover it, but alas it never and at this point i have had some problems that limited my ability to commit to such things.
Likewise LV-223 and the Outbreak, i have a good theory on this, and indeed i am sure many would like to know what was the Purpose of this place, and what went down.. My Prometheus 2 i abandoned did begin to cover this. I am sure we would love to know what happened, but again i am not sure we would find out about this.
HOWEVER... at present.. we can assume that LV-223 is still there, and we have to ask why the Company has never been back after Aliens or indeed after Prometheus, and so surely the reason that this place must have NOTHING to be gained... has to be covered in the next TWO movies.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-15-2017 6:35 PM
I am going to go out on a Limb here...
And i think the next Installment, be it called Alien Awakening or what ever... i think for the most part this would be a movie that would be set in the year 2112-2115, it logically has to be for a number of reasons.
1) David appears to be off to Origae-6 in the Covenant Ship, which will take 7.5 years to arrive there and so we are talking about 2112.
2) David appears to be going there for a reason, why would he need to go there, if all he wants to do is create Thousands of Eggs from the Crew, he could do this on the Ship, so why not go back to Planet 4 and do this and give the company some excuse that he has discovered Paradise. And the Colonist are setting up home? David could turn up at Origae-6 and then One by One try and awaken Colonist and Sedate them and take them down to then be experimented on to create his Eggs (less risky than on the Ship).
3) RS has pondered what kind of World would David create, and regarding becoming a Ruler of, i am sure David on Origae-6 with a Army of Xenomorphs would be pretty lame.... David did also say to Daniels, if we are kind it would be a kind world... when she asked him about what kind of a world can they now build.
4) The movie has to have Human Characters, i doubt we will see David interacting on the Covenant all nice as pie with the crew on their way to Origae-6 for a lot of the movie, and also we have Daniels who knows who David is, and Tennessee would be suspicious if Daniels just happens to bit the dust... So chances are a Colony will be set up on Origae-6 but how they deal with Daniels and Tennessee is interesting as they have written themselves into a corner.
5) The Covenant mission (i have not read the Prequel novel) but clues in the movie and the Viral stuff, appear to suggest that Origae-6 is a Earth like World that is presently not inhabited by Humans.
6) RS has said and hinted that they will go to Origae-6 (David and the Covenant) but that there would be 3-4 other parties involved, and David has informed the company about his experiments and they would know where he is going, so we can assume a Military/Well Prepared Ship is on the way... unless the writing is poor and we get Dumber than Dumb Company Ship Crew in the Know.... Unless the company sends a Human Ship purely as Bait, Lambs to the Slaughter, but would they not expect David would use the Colonist for this?
7) One of the incoming parties will be the Engineers, who arrive at Planet 4 and discover the devastation that has happened, do these Engineers know of the Black Goo, where it came from? How can they be sure that David was behind it, as they would uncover dead Humans no doubt, do they know of Mankind on Earth?, are they aware of the LV-223 Outpost and Mission to destroy us?, did they assume this went ahead? surely if not the would (provided they are aware of the original intention 2000 years ago) surely want to stop us now.
But how do they know/find out David caused all this? We can safely assume Engineer Ships can Travel Faster than Human ones (why have Maps to other Galaxies) and so they cant arrive hot on the heels of the Covenant that has not long departed... as they would intercept this with ease.
So when considering all of this, it paints a Picture.
The Engineers must arrive at the very least long after the Covenant has left and even after the Covenant has arrived on Origae-6, they must find Walter and somehow from him or other clues found in the wreckage of the Covenant Lander, that David is off to Origae-6 and how to find the location. Otherwise we are talking massive Coincidences again... more so if they go the route that Origae-6 has Engineers (it cant do) but it could have done, or other Humanoids seeded by them but this would be a massive Coincidence again.
I would Safely Assume, that David takes the Covenant to Origae-6 he repairs himself (uses Walter Parts) or builds a Walter and Transfers his AI into it, and he does this so he can Pass Off as Walter, and have the other Colonist not be aware of the events of Alien Covenant. He would have to cook a Elaborate Excuse for what happened to the Fallen Crew.
I would assume that piece by piece David helps them to establish a Colony, piece by piece, maybe he even changes his mind about using the Xenomorph? I think we will either see these events, or arrive in a aftermath... but along this path, David will try and establish himself as a Leader and Superior to the Humans, and i think we could see some Rebellion by them as some fail to take David as Leader/King.
Maybe David then introduces kinds of Punishments, so he can subjugate the colonist? or maybe not?
I feel at some point the Colonist, would maybe find out about what David has done or get suspicious and David then uses the Xenomorphs? Or maybe he plans this but he has to allow for a Colony to be set up first.. so he is buying his time?
Maybe i feel David could have some place on Origae-6 a Cave or someplace he will indeed had been subjecting some Colonist to his experiments and some Colonist discover this place?
We will see maybe 1-2 Company Ships arrive, and i would wonder does all these things i suggest happen in real time? or would they been events that have past, and the Company Ships arrive at a aftermath, just as the few remaining Colonist are fighting for their Lives, the Company Ships land... So this could get a bit ALIENS all over again.... but then prior events could be a bit ALIEN 3 again.
I would assume we get some Flash Backs where David explains certain things and events...
I would assume the movie would go back and forth a few times maybe showing when the Engineers turn up at Planet 4? discover what happened and find out WHO DID IT and WHERE THEY ARE but certainly i feel the Engineers turn up on Origae-6 towards the End... which would lead us to the Next Movie.
Where i assume the Engineers and Davids Experiments head towards LV-223. Or David and his creations dispatch the Engineers and he steals their Ship and heads to LV-223 which would set up the 3rd Movie.
THIS.. is what i have read into the clues so far, and its certainly the kind of route i would take.. HOWEVER.. The Question is what route are they taking now? And we also have to take into account when RS mentioned Alien Awakening he was pretty excited about the sequels and even suggesting the Franchise has to be about HIM (Xenomorph).
The Backlash for Alien Covenant could indeed have him and FOX reconsider what plans they had at the time of Alien Covenants Release.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-15-2017 10:28 PM
i think they may have screwed up with the ending to AC a bit bigdave. from what I gathered from the ending of the film was David would go to origae6 for a few reasons. the humans have done their investigations and have chosen the planet because they believe it best suits humanity. I don't see David taking his 200 test subjects to a toxic planet where he couldn't let them out of the ship. secondly, I believe that he feels he would be left alone to do his works. the ships crew was killed off as reported but im sure amongst the colonists there are plenty of people who can carry out the terraforming mission and establish the colony just fine so WY may not send anyone out as the mission isn't a disaster yet. the fact David pretends to be Walter in the transmission is what leads me to this yet why have David send the olive branch message aswell? surely the company will send someone. unless he wants them to send people but I don't see why he would need anyone to come to origae6
Nov-16-2017 6:12 AM
Bigdave, 2 face huggers for Tennesse and Daniels?
Nov-16-2017 6:31 AM
Indeed they have written themselves into a bit of a corner with the ending... a complaint with the Prequels was lack of Character Depth, and then the only TWO Surviving Characters from Prometheus and the TWO with any real depth to their Characters, were David and Dr Shaw... they killed Shaw off screen, and so Alien Covenant came along and apart from David/Walter they again had TWO Characters in Daniels and Tennessee and once again, by revealing that Daniels is aware Walter is David, it means things dont bold well for the chances of these Characters Surviving.
Especially if they are going to introduce us to more Humans, how are these going to interact with Daniels and Tennessee surely once Daniels is with Tennessee she will reveal to him who Walter really is.
Indeed we have to try and think about Davids Agenda, i pointed out i think in this Topic if not then another about the set up points for the sequel, and indeed Origae-6 is a Habitable World, but so is Planet 4, however the risk is there of those Spores... If David wants to Pursue and Evolve his Xenomorphs, without contamination with Neomorphs (having Human's get themselves infected) then indeed setting up Shop on a World that has no Neomorph Spores would be ideal for his plans. The Xenomorph is a Creation that can be better controlled that a Neomorph one, Neomorph Spores can be hidden away and so unintentional infections could arise.
With the Xenomorph David could contain the Eggs within a area of his choosing.. so it makes more logical choice to set up any Egg Colony on Origae-6 rather than on-board the ship.
Another kind of Bad Writing Choice was the Advent Prologue, with David and the Olive Branch, i feel this now allows some at he company who intercept this to be aware of what David is up to.... so it would not pass as like Aliens or Alien or even Prometheus and Alien Covenant, where the incoming Humans for the most part had no idea of what was going on. So this as well as Daniels finding out who David is, have kind of put them into a corner a bit.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-16-2017 6:36 AM
Bigdave so true about the character development issues. How does RS let that happen being such a veteran director?
Nov-16-2017 7:48 AM
That is an interesting topic, thanks for posting this. I am interested to see what people think of the Alien prequels even though I don't agree with everyone and everything that they say.
Hopefully it won't be a prequel to AC that covers what David and Shaw did. I don't care for Shaw since I don't like her character. I have written before why I don't like Shaw so I won't repeat that here.
The Deacon was just a part of the series so I don't think that it makes sense to go back and see what happened to it. Some people might be interested in that part of the story but I would rather see it move forward.
It seems that RS says a lot of things about it but I think that he should direct it but he should not write the story. A Scott story would probably give us a new boring AI/David movie.
Yes I would rather see a story about the Engineers and their connection to the Xeno. I am not interested in another movie about David because AC was too much about David and that was boring.
Unfortunately both Prometheus and AC have been underwhelming and I am worried that the next one will be crap if they focus too much on David and less on the human characters.
Give us some human characters that we can connect with that are not just two-sided or else it will be a crappy movie.
Nov-16-2017 7:57 AM
Ridley Scott is only as good as the Script he is given to work with, a lot of people had been looking forwards to Logans work as they rate him as a writer and were revealed they never followed a Micheal Green Draft.. It appears some themes from Greens P2 made it into Blade Runner 2049
So the Prometheus Sequel had gone through a long development, having 4 writers brought in over a period of nearly 2 years until we ended up with a Script that RS and FOX felt was RIGHT...
A thing to remember is a lot of stuff can get changed and cut from a Draft to a Actual Shooting Script and what we get in the Movie and even then a lot can get cut in the Editing Process... AC has flaws, but the Novel seems to better explain some flaws... The same is with Prometheus a number of fans blasted Lindeloff for the mess that this was, as far as some of the movie... However if they read Lindeloffs Drafts they are actually more Tidy and Explain things better and are not as Silly.
Sadly a Draft has to be cut down to translate to a certain running time on the Screen, and it appears both AC and Prometheus suffered from a few things being cut that left some scenes in the movies appearing as very Dumb and Stupid.
I think they need to get a Draft for the Next movie thats much improved and has better use of Characters, but looking at the Set-up the movie has backed itself into a limited corner... the only way out is if most of the Movie is done as a Actual Aftermath event like AC was.
We arrived in AC with the Covenant intercepting a Signal of Human Origin, the Covenant Crew arrive almost 10 years after what David had done to the Engineers and Proceeded to do to them and Dr Shaw in the following years.... its only a bit of Narrative from David and Flash Back that we get to see some remnants of what happened.
I have a feeling the next movie would be similar, we wont really see the events of from after David walks down the corridor listening to Wagner, to when we arrive seeing no doubt a Origae-6 Human Colony up and Running. Much like we did not see any events from when Dr Shaw and David discovered a Engineer ship apart from the scene of a Engineer Ship leaving LV-223, right until when the Covenant Arrived.. we did not see what transpired in those 10 years really.
The Crossing Prologue did cover some part of this...
I feel this could be the way that Alien Awakening or what ever it would be called, could be handled.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-16-2017 8:04 AM
I can understand Thoughts_Dreams and i feel many feel the same..
Sadly i do think we are going to be thrown into a World, where David has lied to the Colonist, where he has allowed them to set up a Colony (despite him saying he cant allow Mankind to start again) i think we will then see David try and announce himself as King, and Subjugate the Colonist, where he may have the Xenomorph as a Punishment. I have a funny feeling we will see David set up and lead a New Human Civilization that while it has Technology would be made to pretty much become a Culture like many Ancient ones, where David would be setting up some kind of worship to himself and maybe his Creation.
I think we will see some Colonist Rebel, and Question why they should serve David after all he is a Creation of Mankind, and then they find out what David really had been up to in Alien Covenant.... Que David unleashing his Xenomorphs on them... Que a Company Military Ship arrive.
Que some inside conspiracy at the company that revolves around AI being the ones Pulling the Strings..
Que the Engineers to arrive, and join the other 3 Factions at play on Origae-6 and then Que, finding out what David has done, and attempting to do with the Colonist, Pronounce himself to be Worshiped by the Humans yet David is actually a Creation of Mankind... as Actually the Same thing the LV-223 Engineers had also done Thousands of Years ago... thus making David and the LV-223 Engineers similar.
I can as of now pretty much see this has being very very similar to the Plot we shall be shown.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-16-2017 8:05 AM
I agree with the running time needed, there is no way we will see him setup a colony and experiments. We will see the final result just in time for the 4 parties to arrive.
Nov-16-2017 9:19 AM
That sounds kind of boring but it could be saved by giving David limited screen time and have human characters that we can relate to. Right now I am sort of tired of the AI thing so if they don't change that in some way that brings more focus on the humans then I think that it will be boring. One way that they can do this is to write some parts that do not involve David so they can dedicate that to other things, that would be something new as far as the prequels are concerned.
What if the humans fight the aliens and then David is like the last boss in a computer game that they got to beat last? Maybe this is a dumb idea but it is something that occurred to me. I mean this loosely by the way. By doing this they could focus more on the humans and less on David even though he is important, this could be what you wrote about the AI pulling the strings so to speak. Let him be around a lot in the movie but don't have him a lot on the screen (keep him in the shadows or how ever to put it), I would be OK with that.
Hopefully they are smart enough to understand that not everyone is interested in the AI part. Do you think that the can reduce it in the next movie as opposed to their initial plans?
I hope that David will face a gruesome death as quick as possible if that is the case so they can focus on the monsters and the humans. Maybe the humans do to David what Oram should have done? The colony that you talk about makes me think of Hadley's Hope in Aliens.
Having the Engineers mad at David could be interesting. Maybe they will try to kill him? That would be interesting. Just imagine what kind of weapons that they might have.
“Que some inside conspiracy at the company that revolves around AI being the ones Pulling the Strings.. “
I hope not, the AI has had too much importance in the alien prequels this far already.
Nov-16-2017 3:44 PM
I find the route they could be taking interesting, but i know some may not feel that way, they did kill off Dr Shaw which some people felt she was not a good Character, but then some then thought killing her off without the answers she wanted was lame..
I think a lot of people felt David was interesting from Prometheus, but a number felt his Character changes in Alien Covenant and how he turned out and acted, was not done well, and some are now concerned about the Prequels being about DAVID. I however cant see them killing David off, if they do i feel he would stil have quite a lot of screen time.
They do have to bring in Human Characters, to give us some kind of Peril, as surely a repeat of Mercenaries or Marines vs Xenomorphs is something done a number of times, and a lot would feel a greater impact came from the Terror Faced by those who are not so well equipped to deal with a situation like that, such as the Nostromo Crew and the Prisoners in Alien 3
So Humans would be key, as far as not just being a bunch of Marines turning up with a few sneaky Human Characters with ulterior motives like Micheal Bishop in Alien 3 and Burke from Aliens.
The hole they have dug themselves into its they may have to start again from Scratch to build up new Characters, because it does not bold well for Daniels and Tennessee and if they survive its going to be a real tricky story telling to show how Daniels does not rumble Davids Plans, or how she does not inform Tennessee.
Unless David makes a Covenant with her, saying he wishes to start a New, and go on about the Errors of Mankinds ways, and on about the Biblical Punishments, and then on about the Engineers and how they had grown a disfavor to Mankind... all because Mankind are a Race who are selfish, cruel and the Engineers and Biblical God new this hence the attempted Punishments.
so David then suggests that on Origae-6 he is prepared to allow Mankind to get a New Start, he could go on about how he was treated by Mankind, apart from Dr Shaw.
And so Ultimately he could suggest he would let Daniels Survive allow her to build her Colony, and the Colonists have a New Start, a start to have a chance of being KIND and Not SINFUL and learn the lessons of Mankinds Path, As DAVID said to Daniels when she thought he was WALTER, "What kind of World can we Build" Walter/David replies "if we are kind, it will be a kind world"
I feel following through with this conversation is the only Logical way to have Daniels Survive, where she makes a Deal with David, where he will allow them to build this New World, but he would lay down some Ground Rules... i think eventually he will try to take over as KING, and warn Daniels if she tries to cross him or expose him, he has a means to destroy all they are attempting to Build, and then maybe he could threaten to wipe out all of Mankind.
So David can use this as a Bargaining Chip, i feel something like this is the only really way to allow Daniels to be explored, because we have to logically think, she would certainly not want David to be allowed to be around the Colonist, she would certainly want to Warn them and Tennessee and so for David it would be that Daniels is a Serve Obstacle that he would have to eradicate first.
And killing off TWO Surviving Characters, means having to build new characters, and then these new Characters would have to have some survive and be used in the next movie, unless they make the same mistakes where Humans are just Plot Devices as they have done with Prometheus and Alien Covenant.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-16-2017 3:58 PM
I think a big thing RS is doing is looking into the Psyche of David... He is a Artificial Being made Superior to Mankind in every way, yet he was made to Serve these in-superior beings, he would notice how Mankind has been like a Cancer to the Planet, yes there is some Good but Mankind is also full of greed, war and bring about suffering (things that makes David Sad in the Prometheus Viral Marketing) he would thus see that Humans actually cause more harm and suffering. David has gained Free-will, Emotions, he can express himself, create Art, Music these are limitations that Walter has due to restricted Programing. David sees Walter as Superior to Humans, and indeed to himself, but sees due to Walters Programing he is actually a Great Potential that is simply restricted by his Programing.
RS would also be following the tail of Hubris... If Mankind had not made Synthetics like David, or for certain if they had more Restricted Programing then Mankind would not be in the potential Bother, they could now potentially be in, if David decides to unleash his Creations on Mankind.
The Themes are not so much AI, but Creation and Sub-Creation and Hubris, in that if the Engineers had not created Mankind or Evolved us so far, then they would not have had to attempt to eradicate them which became costly to those on LV-223, which the got further costly when we Sub-created David and he then ultimately wipes out those Engineers on Planet 4. The Hubris being if those Engineers never Sub-Created then David would not have existed to wipe those out on Planet 4
Themes explored are also what makes AI... its not showing us about AI, not much but its about how Mankind Sub-creates and we create our own Life in our Own Image, only our Creation is Synthetic, but then how Evolved David has become, what makes him AI compared to us, what separates us apart from Biology vs Synthetic....... THE SOUL? The Fact David when he dies/becomes dis-activated will never have a Spiritual Soul that goes to a Higher Place... a Higher Pane of Existence... David would simply become NOTHING
But the Flip side which RS was pushing us down is actually... do Humans have a Soul, do we go to Heaven or Hell or do we just simply become NOTHING.. in which case what separates David to Human? Flesh and Blood and the Ability to Procreate is all... Which is when Davids need to Create for himself comes in to Fill this Void..
Going back to THE SOUL... if Humans have none, and when we Die that is it... but David can upload his AI into systems then it is DAVID who Ultimately has a ever lasting SOUL that Transcends to a Higher Pane of Existence.
Its these kinds of Themes RS i think is attempting to explore, and not merely Humans Create a Robot who goes a bit Mad and then wants to kill all Humans.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-17-2017 8:46 AM
I hope Tennesse is killed off, I hated his shell of a character.
Nov-17-2017 8:48 AM
Those themes are interesting BigDave but we will likely only get a short second flute scene to touch on them.
Nov-20-2017 7:44 AM
Critters5: I didn't hate Tennesee I just think that he wasn't very well-written as far as character traits are concerned. Tennesee was just one of many characters that should have been written a lot better.
Nov-20-2017 7:47 AM
First, I just can't see that actor as much as I love him in comedy's in a serious role. Second, like you said there was just no character development other than he wears a cowboy hat.
Nov-20-2017 8:06 AM
Nov-20-2017 10:01 AM
Big Dave: Sorry but I disagree with you, I don't like the route that they are taking. We already have two failed prequels so I can not understand how anyone can think that the route that they take is interesting. I am just scratching my head at that like "huh?" but that is not to say that I find those that like the direction to be dumb or so. Prometheus is better than Covenant IMO because David is better and he has less of a role although he is important, but that is just my opinion though.
Don't take this like I am against new ideas, I think that the Engineers could have been alright if they are done well and if they make sense and I also like they they are trying new monsters and new environments. I don't like how they are trying to make David the creator of the Xeno and I don't think that they have made a lot of well-done human characters. There are parts where I agree with them and there are parts where I agree with you.
Yes, David was lot better written in Prometheus but they sort of ruined his character in AC. I like that he was sort of gray in Prometheus. To me the character is almost dead, I hope that they will at least reduce his screen time in the next movie and spend more time on better human characters otherwise they haven't learned their lesson about making better human characters. Hopefully he will be better written in the next movie. Don't make the same mistake again.
I like they idea of a space colony to start a new life like Daniels said it was just too bad that they messed up the characters. They don't have to be scientists or marines or what ever they have had before in the franchise. Just write well done characters that feel natural (have more than two or three character traits) and that we can relate to, I don't think that is too much to ask for. You mention the marines, I think that a reason why I think that Alien and Alien 3 are better than Aliens is because those in prison and those at the Nostromo were civilians and not trained persons, therefore the odds were bigger. Alright now I think that I know a bit better why I think that the first one and Alien 3 are the best this far, I have never put it down on paper like that.
My guess from seeing the end of AC is that it will be difficult to keep Daniels and Tennessee alive. If David is not totally stupid or get a huge case of hubris then I don't see how they will survive but we have seen bad writing before.
"so David then suggests that on Origae-6 he is prepared to allow Mankind to get a New Start, he could go on about how he was treated by Mankind, apart from Dr Shaw."
I doubt that Daniels and Tennessee would trust him enough to keep him alive, I wouldn't. Since he is not a human I wouldn't hesitate for a second to blow his head off after all that he has done, but that is how I would have solved it. You wrote unless they make a covenant but I don't see that as likely.
"If we are kind", I don't think that David understands what that means in practice since he can not feel emotions he might understand them though but this is something that we have discussed before I think at least. To me that means that David says (implied) "if you do as I want it will be a kind world (I won't kill you) ".
Yes I agree with what you say about killing two main characters, that would be strange. I would be very annoyed if they do the same mistake for the third time in a row about the characters being some background material to push the David story, that would make me upset. Having humans as pieces to drive the story forward is just so lame because then you don't care to give them any depth, which honestly sucks.
Sure artificial intelligence and tales of creation could be interesting but they got to have interesting characters for the story to work otherwise I do not care what the topic is, it gets boring. Yes David's psyche could be interesting but it will not work if they don't get the humans right.
Tales of creation could be done in an interesting way but you got to get the characters right, at least some of them. If he would only care as much for the human characters as he does for the themes and David.
"The Fact David when he dies/becomes dis-activated will never have a Spiritual Soul that goes to a Higher Place... a Higher Pane of Existence... David would simply become NOTHING".
Well humans have a psyche and are made of different material than synthetics. To me that is obvious, even though we can make robots that could be as close to humans as possible they will never become human. I understand that David wants to create, that was obvious in AC.
I think that humans have a soul/psyche although that is not to say that there is an afterlife which maybe it is.
"Going back to THE SOUL... if Humans have none, and when we Die that is it... but David can upload his AI into systems then it is DAVID who Ultimately has a ever lasting SOUL that Transcends to a Higher Pane of Existence."
I see what you mean but I disagree, a soul requires a higher mental function which is tied to humans and not synthetics so he can be a machine that can upgrade like you do with computer software but that is not the same as a soul/psyche because if that would be the case then a robot in a factory could have potential soul also. Maybe I did not make myself clear on this one but I hope that it is not too bad.
"Its these kinds of Themes RS i think is attempting to explore, and not merely Humans Create a Robot who goes a bit Mad and then wants to kill all Humans."
Alright but he hasn't done so very well this far.
Nov-20-2017 1:54 PM
Totally agree Characters do help, and indeed it appears Characters that just seem to be there to drive along plot points has been Prometheus and more so Alien Covenants undoing.
Dr Shaw was a Character they could have expanded on, you have a religious person who finds out her Faith is flawed, and the Gods they went to find are just advanced Humanoids who have a far worse Agenda and View on Mankind then she ever could have hoped... but she still holds on to her faith... CLAIMING God would never try and hurt her and suggesting that so what if Holloway was right.... WHO created the Engineers then? So she was still holding on to the chance that their is a GOD so she can somehow salvage her FAITH
Some fans was not interested in pursuing this, or finding out more about the Engineers and so hence the way they was both killed off. HOWEVER.... if Dr Shaw found out the Agenda and Truth and it proved that the God she was brought up to believe in is totally further from the TRUTH then Dr Shaw has NOTHING.. this means she could be become a very Broken Character, and potentially Go Mad, be Angry it left a lot to explore how such things would totally change her as a Character... But alas...
So she was killed off, and now i think the set up for the next movie does not bold well for Daniels at all, i was offering a few potential ideas of how Daniels can play a role in the next movie, by having a deal reached between her and David.
Otherwise if we look at it from DAVIDS POV which is what we had to do with AC and the reasons he did what he did, then a Daniels would certainly hamper any plans of Davids and so Logically he would subject her to Experiments and Kill her off.... thats what makes sense because of how they ended ALIEN Covenant..
If Daniels was not aware Walter was David, then her Character could have gone on to develop, and then in future she finds out that David is Walter and reveal the shock and horror on her Face, but doing it in AC means they have written themselves into a corner with how she is to be used.
The themes of SOUL is something RS is touching upon, we need to not look at it being a case that WE DO, but as a Question of Do We? Everyone has their own opinions and Faith and what not when it comes down to Mankind, we could be no more than Biological Machines, Flesh and Blood and its our Memories, Emotions and Moral Compass that makes us what we are, these are all influenced by our experiences through life.
So when we die... we leave nothing...
This is something RS was trying to get to IMO, it was to raise things like is there or is there not a Soul... and can Robots have a Soul if indeed our Soul is just Memories, Experiences and Emotions. Which we could see to a good degree with CALL from Alien Resurrection.
Another thing RS was touching on is about Legacy..... if we have NO SOUL and when we Die thats it, then we only Live on in our Family/Next of kin (our Creations) other ways we live on is being remembered for our Deeds, and so you have Famous Leaders/Rulers like Past Kings and Queens, people who are remembered for their works be it ART, MUSIC, LITERATURE some Political and Heroic People will have a Legacy, some Dictators/Tyrants also be remembered for their Brutality. All of these things are a LEGACY.
This in Part is shown in the Prologue, Peter Weyland is leaving a Legacy, when he is gone he would be remembered for his Legacy, and also the creation of David is his greatest Legacy. Its why the Ozymandias Poem is in the movie, its to show that when Kings come and go, their Legacy is whats left behind, and great Monuments and Statues can be built to remember them by..... but eventually this disappears to dust, and then there is NOTHING... Which indeed is very true.. if we look back at Ancient Mankind around 1000 + years ago and some Disaster killed off all of Mankind... while the Buildings and Statues are left to remind anyone of who WE was.... many thousands of years time so say Half a Million years, there would be little or nothing left, Great Monuments like the Pyramids would look totally different in hundreds of thousands of years.
And so we see these things are setting up Davids thinking, and why he wishes to leave his own LEGACY
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-20-2017 2:00 PM
So a Big Problem is where do they take this?
The route they chosen has limited things... Prometheus was like a central movie... on one hand it was to show the Space Jockey are the Engineers and the LV-223 outpost they experimented on and created the Black Goo which is related to the Xenomorph. Prometheus left it open to go one of THREE ways.
1) Explore the Deacon and hope another Mission to LV-223 can reveal more about this place and how the Deacon connects to ALIEN
2) Go off to the Engineers Home World to explore their Agenda and History, are the Engineers at the top of the Hierarchy etc?
3) A movie set in Ancient Times to give the answers to either or both of those. Cover the LV-223 Outbreak or Space Jockey Event.
It appeared we was set for OPTION 2 but they had a U-Turn and now we have a movie set of prequels that will literally connect directly to ALIEN thus alternating the Time Line that was intended for a long time. They way AC handled the Engineers, Davids creation of the Xenomorph and how he is now on a 7.5 year journey to Origae-6 does leave a limited direction the prequels will go.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nov-21-2017 5:03 AM
Bigdave, that's a good point regarding Shaw's faith. I can't believe that was built up as a theme and Ridley never went further with it in AC he could have gotten real deep and had some scene wherein David says "where is your god now" as he begins his experiments and brings creation from Shaw's womb....
Nov-21-2017 5:05 AM
Bigdave, I think soul should be explored more as David did seem to react in Prometheus when Weiland was saying David had no soul...
Nov-21-2017 5:07 AM
Bigdave, I wish AC was split into options 1 and 2 and had a run time of 3.5 hours LOTR styles but alas that will never happen.