It would seem that a lot of our community and the fans at large believe that the Engineers introduced in 2012's Prometheus created mankind. While there is enough ambiguous inference in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant to suggest this possibility, I believe there is much more in-universe evidence that proves that we are, as Sir Peter Weyland refused to believe, just a random by-product of molecular circumstance; the result of mere biological chance. I also hope to reveal through examining the Engineers their unique relationship to us and the Xenomorph. I expect many may find the suggestions contained within this supposition initially jarring, but I hope in time, and through cross-examination and debate that you will become open to the possibilities discussed.
Be assured that this will not get heady with references to religious scripture and left-wing theories based upon controversial real-world evidence; everything suggested here forward is already known by most, if not all of you. All I ask is that you consider looking at the evidence from a perspective other than which you have done so until now. The lazy readers can skip to the summary at the end, but for the rest of you let us begin...
The Engineers did not create humankind, as to do so would be impossible given that they are themselves human. A bold statement, with no uncertainty; and here's why - The Engineers speak a proto Indo-European dialect and use a cuneiform hieroglyph writing system mirroring those used by the first human Indo-Europeans circa/pre 3,000 BCE. Humans of this period though mostly civilized were technologically primitive compared to modern humans, being as they were within the Neolithic/Bronze age of human technological development. With the exception of biomechanical technology (the Juggernauts and augmentation of the pilot Engineers), it would appear that the Engineers have not advanced past this point in human technological development, as evidenced by the flute used to activate the Juggernaut and the masonry, attire, and technology of the Engineers seen on Paradise and in Prometheus' opening scene. The genetic evidence gathered by Dr. Elizabeth Shaw and crewmate Ford (pictured above), which showed that Engineer DNA is a match to, but predates our own, together with the dating of the Sumerian tablet, the oldest artifact discovered by Shaw and Dr. Charlie Holloway (pictured below), would seem to suggest that the Engineers are in fact ancient Neolithic-age humans taken from Earth prior to the Sumerian tablets creation in 3590 BCE.
However, the Sacrificial Engineer and those that inhabited Planet 4 while likely being humans from Neolithic-age Earth each share an Apollonian physical appearance that differs to humans from that period. Pale skinned, dark-eyed, hairless and muscular, their chiseled appearance is also shared with the Pilot Engineers, who with the aid of biomechanical augmentations are capable of accessing technology the Juggernauts (Horseshoes, Mother, and Disc-shaped) that the other engineers cannot, technology far more advanced than that of Neolithic-age humans and thus not of Engineer design, most likely being alien in origin.
The artifacts discovered by Shaw and Holloway together with the vast population of the Engineer city on Planet 4 relates the possibility that the Pilot Engineers frequently returned to Earth to collect more of their kind. Together with the LV-223 Pilot Engineers plans to decimate Earths population 2000 years ago with the Black Pathogen this suggests that in return for asylum on Planet 4 and evolutionary augmentation that presumably granted them immunity to disease and prolonged their lifespans, the Human Engineers sold out Earth to whoever created the Juggernauts, so that Earth could be terraformed by the Black Pathogen; a virus that reconstructs certain DNA markers of whatever it contaminates to emulate the genetic template of the Xenomorph, a parasitoid creature designed to subjugate the indigenous population of an ecosystem - the perfect organism for terrofrmation.
The terraformation domes on LV-223 were used to store the ampules of the Black Pathogen. The ampules were sealed in isolated chambers that only activated when exposed to the atmosphere of the rest of the dome, atmosphere meant to simulate that of Earth. These domes were maintained and guarded by the Pilot Engineers, Engineers that were biomechanically augmented to be able to access the Juggernaut technology, ultimately for the purpose of delivering the Black Pathogen to Earth, their former homeworld.
In short, what I postulate is that the Engineers are primitive humans. There are not two warring factions, but instead, the main populace that has been granted refuge on Planet 4, refuge from the intended terraformation of Earth using the Black Pathogen, to be instigated by a select chosen few that have been 'blessed' with access to the technology of the Juggernauts. I speculate the alien creators of this technology sent Juggernauts remotely to planets harboring life with the intent of using a sample of the native, intelligent, dominant race of each planet to adapt the Black Pathogen for use on their homeworld in return for the promise of paradise. Presumably, these aliens are biomechanical humanoids, one of which may have been the Space Jockey who died on LV-426.
That's a good theory. I myself thought about it. Unknown "alpha-race" abducted the primal humans (maybe even Neanderthals) and modernized they with black goo in Engineers. And black goo is patogen - yes, but more - it is the blood (or sub-product) of "alpha race". And alpha-race looks like as alien (on mural)... And they use the proto-facehuggers (on same mural) with humans for reproductive system. And Charley say: "it's just a grave". Grave - tomb for alpha-race who gave power to Engineers. In earlier trailers (and WY report) we can see not a strange green crystal, but a cup for black goo for sacriface (?), which was used an Engineer in Prometheus for create of life (mb planet 4).
I think, Engineers trying to ressurection of Alpha-race, but they failed and was be destroyed the madness monster. And David's xeno (and neo, and deacon, and other things) is just a monsters - pathetic copy of great alpha-race.
We will see living alpha-race? I hope for this.
Good theory. It works for me!
What I like about David/AI: They are immortal...no need for sleep chambers (like the Engineers seem to need).
Having a Biomechanical race makes sense. No need to sleep...Like David/Walter/AI they stay awake for every event. Maybe a recharge...but nothing like sleeping for centuries!
For humans to compete with synths(very tough task)they would have to somehow overcome the need for extended sleep OR they get good at cloning and passing on their traits to themselves.....and having to start life as a baby, is a problem.... Very vulnerable.
Immortality versus passing on your genes.
Interesting theory and who knows whats the deal they have decided on, from its inception the concept when working on a Prequel to Alien was to explore the Space Jockey Race, and showcase what connection they had with the Xenomorph.
Spaights worked on a number of drafts and his Alien Engineers introduced us to the Engineers as being the Space Jockey Race, a Race of Ancient Advanced and Powerful Humanoids, who stood 15ft tall.
some of the earlier concepts these beings looked different to what we ended up with. The idea however still being that this Ancient Race had for some reason Created the Human Race, by using their own DNA.
This links to a number of Creation Mythos. This was the idea, that the Space Jockey Race are a Ancient Alien 15ft Humanoids who are ancient cultures had interpreted and worshiped as GOD's and the basis for our many God Religions and Mythos.
FOX felt this Curve-ball was very interesting and decided to tone down the Xenomorph connections and concentrate on the Engineers and Human connections, our Engineers evolved to being more Human Looking and smaller now 12ft tall, that was revised again to 10ft tall as of Lindeloffs Final Paradise Drafts.
Sadly Prometheus Ridley Scott decided against Visual Trickery and Technology as used in LOTR and Hobbit and alas our Space Jockey/Engineers were no more than 7.5ft tall.
It appeared a lot of ideas was in place regarding the Engineers, RS even suggesting they are not GOD's and that RS would not be meeting the GOD in the first movie.. So those Engineers belong to a Hierarchy of Creation and this is why the Elder Scene was cut... the Elders could have been the GOD's or maybe RS had plans to re-design them.
It appears Originally we was to delve more into this Hierarchy in a Prometheus Sequel penned by Paglen/Green, of which a Source past on information to me in Late Feb 2015, based off the October 2014 Prometheus Sequel Draft... and some interesting things was mentioned, which seemed to match comments RS latter made in late 2015 regarding the potential for a sequel.
But it all went a bit quiet.... then the announcement of Alien Covenant which was a re-write and to a degree a near complete new draft for a Prometheus Sequel was penned in the Summer of 2015
Alien Covenant brought some interesting changes to the Engineers, it appeared the World David and Shaw traveled to inhabited by these beings was fundamentally very Ancient Looking almost like Mankind on Earth was some 2000-4000 years ago.... Yet they did have some Technology but this was mostly used for limited resources.
It appears these beings had chosen to instead live more primitive lives, despite being able to have technology and so they indeed are a culture much like the Buddhist Monks, who Shun most of the 20th century Technological Advances.
Yet these Engineers did seem to have a Hanger, that was meant to accept Juggernauts, they also had similar larger docking ships.
So this raised Questions to why this place had these, yet most of them shunned the Technology that the LV-223 Engineers had.
The Planet 4 Engineers also looked different, their skin for the most of them was not as Pale and Marble like the LV-223 and Sacrificial Engineers, the Planet 4 Engineers also had White Sclera also many of them their features seemed less Engineer than we saw in Prometheus.
Was this just a lazy/budget restraint error? or are these beings a Hybrid or a missing link between the Engineers and Mankind? The Planet 4 Engineers, had Females, they also varied in height from about 6ft-7.5ft
But RS had proposed that just as Mankind has various forms and heights why cant the Engineers...
The Females are a interesting addition, because the Background for these beings in Spaights ideas was that they had LONG LOST the ability to Procreate, and had to come up with other means to Procreate their Species.
RS had expanded on this, at the time after Prometheus by saying that the Engineers could Procreate other ways, but the Sacrificial Ritual was just the way they CHOSE to do so.
RS had laid some good comments on the Engineers, after Prometheus he referred to them as Fallen Angels, even proposing that if the Engineers are the Forerunners of Mankind, then where is the Big Guy.
Proposing the Sacrificial Engineer was a Acolyte
After Alien Covenant had finished production, RS had mentioned in interviews that the Hall of Heads inside the Cathedral Dome, was the Wise Men among the Engineers, the Apostles and Superior Beings.. But Superior to who? Mankind? or those beings on Planet 4
Other members of Production referred to the Hall of Heads as the Hierarchy, and Ridley Scott had even called the Engineers in Alien Covenant the ORIGINAL Engineers, so could this mean there are differences to those on LV-223 and the Sacrificial Scene.
another Bombshell after the release on DVD of Alien Covenant is that the Engineers live for 150 years, this is in great contrast to the Original Ideas at the time of Spaights work where our Engineers lived for thousands of years.
So indeed it appears things may change as they go along, and it will be interesting to see WHO these Engineers Truly are, what is the Real Connection to Mankind and what role did/does the LV-223 and Sacrificial Engineers play?
The comments regarding the Engineers given to me late February/Early March 2015 could give some clues however..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
so indeed as of now... the OT is very Valid.
The Engineers could have came from Earth, they could be Earlier Humans, or maybe they could be latter Humans and we have a Ancestor we share?
The source did hint that Earth Mankind are 4th/5th Generation of our Kind and Engineers do Genetically fit within the Evolutionary Process of Humanoid Races, which Earth is not the only one in the Galaxy.
They also claim that the Engineers and David are actually pretty much more in common than Humans and Engineers, and claim that Humans play the Bigger Role in the Xenomorph and not Engineers. A lot of Emphasis was on earlier Stages of Mankind/Humans and that Biblical Events happened but not to the Generations of Man on Earth.
All sounded a bit puzzling when told in early 2015, based of the October 2014 Final Draft. (Paglen/Green)
But after AC was released i find these Concepts Fascinating.
Wayne Haagg and Steve Messing Concepts, so concepts of the Cathedral Doors by TWO separate Artist, both showing Human Females on the Doors and on the walls leading to those Doors, what look like very Biblical Humans on the one concept and very Sumerian Humanoids on the other.
I would love to ask them what was the process when designing these as clearly a Emphasis is on the Females, and why dont we see Bald Engineer looking Paintings on the Entrance?
Did these early concepts, showcase more Human Race, if not Humans and what then is the relationship between these and the Bald Engineers on Planet 4?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I don't think this fan theory passes the "Authorial intent" test. I see no evidence of the Engineers being humans in any of the scripts, or any pre or post production material for Prometheus or Covenant.
"The Engineers did not create humankind" <-- Of course they didn't. Humans are the product of billions of years of evolution, starting with microorganisms. If anything, all the Engineers did was seed Earth with bacteria and waited a long, long time for things to happen. Let's not forget the dinosaurs who were only wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago. Humans evolved only after that accidental disaster wiped out the big predatory dinosaurs, which were keeping the mammals down. If humans ended up looking a bit like the Engineers it would be an accident of evolution, or convergent evolution.
Also, what the heck do you mean "terraformation of Earth"? Earth is already terraformed, you idiot. That's what the word "Terra" means in Latin, planet Earth. The idea about terraforming other planets is to make them like Earth, so humans can live there. You can no more terraform Earth than you can make the sea wetter. Jeez some people are uneducated.
@ Yog Sothoth,
Personal insults, really? Not knowing were the creators of the Juggernauts came from I couldn't well replace the word Terra, could I? I could have used the term 'Xenoforming', but then many wouldn't have understood what I meant now would they?
There is plenty of evidence, of which I stated in the OP, that the Engineers are most likely primitive humans. But I am glad that you bring up the Sacrificial Engineer. That was not Earth in Prometheus' opening scene, and the life that the Engineer was seeding was not the beginnings of life on Earth, but that of Xenomorph Prime...
As Leto mentioned the crystal seen in the ampule room was originally a cup, the same cup used by the Sacrificial Engineer, inferring that both the contents of that cup and the contents of the ampules were the same; the Black Pathogen, and as the relief on the wall of the ampule room instructs that the Black Pathogen makes whatever it contaminates to become Xenomorph in nature, thus the life that was born from the scattered remains of the Sacrificial Engineer can only be Xenomorph in nature, else the Black Pathogen makes no logical sense.
Of course, you're free to believe Shaw and Weyland's supposition over the evidence seen in the movies, and yes there is a chance I too have misinterpreted everything. But taking into account I formed this theory before the release of AC, which only added evidence to support my theory, my money is that this theory is probably close to whatever Ridley and co. have imagined for the prequel series.
its obvious the intent within the film was that the engineers seed worlds with their dna and a humanoid life form will evolve from that seed. but whats unclear is when they do this on earth.
"Au Revoir Shoshanna"
Holloway studied ancient civilizations from Earth and that green crystal and the murals reminded him of a tomb, ancient rituals implying military activity/conquest. It does not necessarily have to be some relic of the creature in the mural.
"Right outside of Teotihuacan, the largest indigenous metropolis in the Americas, is a town/mine called Pachuca. The obsidian out of this mine comes in a very unique shade of green that has appealed to human civilizations dating back to before the Olmecs (4000 years plus).
The main scientific reason why this Green Obsidian is so important is that when found at an ancient tomb or archaeological site, it indicates ancient Teotihuacano presence in the area. The geography of where this mineral shows up allows scientists to piece together long-lost traderoutes, and in arrowhead form, it implies military activity/conquest."
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
I agree there are no need for Insults so lets first address the counter arguments..
It would appear some do-not fully understand Prometheus, yes you could say Engineers are not Humans because we evolved via Bacteria and Evolution... but this is Sci-Fi.... yes maybe we Evolved from Bacteria, maybe the Big Bang is what created the Universe.
But Religious people would argue against those claims, and that GOD created the Heavens and Earth, and Mankind...
WHAT Ridley Scott was doing or attempting was that actually neither of these are CORRECT but they kind of have roots to what actually happened within context of SCI-FI you only have to pay attention to all of RS comments prior to the U-Turn Mash up/Mess that is Alien Covenant.
The idea is that indeed WE Evolved from Basic Lifeforms, well that either one of TWO Things happened.
1) Engineer Sacrifice, leads to the Building Blocks/Bacteria that kick started life THUS the Sacrificial Scene is actually the Panspermia Event
2) That basic Life/Bacteria was on Earth, (evidence in Prometheus suggests this) and the Sacrifice actually was the Catalyst that Evolved Basic Single Cell Life into Complex Life... (Full understanding of the Sacrificial Goo) answers this.
People need to then look at RS comments, as he answers quite a lot, he had claimed and said after Prometheus Release, that these Engineers came back over many thousands of years and Evolved us both Genetically and Technologically.
Upon Denouncing a Sequel plans, and few months before announcing Alien Covenant.. Ridley Scott had given us more clues... He suggested that if the Engineers are the Fore-runners of Mankind... then WHO and WHAT allowed for Worlds to be able to support life in the first place... where is the BIG GUY
He then even Questioned, that the Big Bang may have not been a Accident, even suggesting Steven Hawkings thinks it may have been more than accidental.
This was RS suggesting to us that Worlds had to go through some kind of Terra-forming before they could be suitable to be able to Seed Worlds. He seems to point to the possibility that there is a greater Power above the Engineers who have the ability to actually Create/Mold Worlds themselves.
Yes all this sounds stupid if you try and look at it compared to reality, but then ALIENS is completely Dumb if you look at it in reality. Xenomorphs DONT EXISTS..
But the point is they do as far as Sci-Fi movies...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
As far as theories Go, i totally respect Gavins theory, its a interesting and sinister one... but mine is different but maybe the total Agenda could be more sinister.
Indeed the Green Crystal was actually the Sacrificial Cup Originally, and so the Sacrificial Cup was on the altar in front of the Mural. This Cup was Larger than the Sacrificial One... well it would thus imply the Sacrificial Engineer was indeed very Large (10ft+) maybe this is why it was changed? As RS showcase of our Engineers revealed them to be no more than 7.5ft tall.... in Hindsight he should have used Technology that was used in Game of Thrones, The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and thus could have made the Engineers appear 10ft or greater.
This is where my theory differs, well what i am drawn to and what i was from the start, that Months latter after Prometheus i came across Spaights Alien Engineers which to me backed up what i was thinking.
The Sacrificial Goo, was Sacrificial Scarabs, which Ate the Engineer Molecule by Molecule and then one of these Scarabs flew off and bitten a Female Primate... injecting the Engineer DNA it consumed, and thus causing the Primate to Evolve and become a Engineer/Primate Hybrid... thus HUMAN.
Prometheus shows us the Engineers Seeded DNA, Evolves Basic Life, to kick start evolution, well thats how i saw it, and so its a long path from this to Humans.... Not if the Engineers came back over certain periods and further Evolved Life until Humans was created (this is what LV-223 was which i will cover in reply to a related recent topic).
In Prometheus however the Black Goo turns Life into Xeno/Deacon related Lifeforms... why does Earth not have Xeno/Deacon related Life?
I feel the fact the Sacrificial Bowl was in front of the Mural in a Christ pose, which reflects the Sacrifice Jesus made to Save Mankind, i feel the Cruciform pose of the Mural suggests this Organism was Sacrificed to the Sacrificial Goo and the Broken Down Material was stored in those Urns... Thus the use of this would Evolve Life to take on the Deacons DNA.
If the Sacrificial Engineer consumed the Goo while he was in a shower Cubical and the broken down matter, then siphoned into the drainage and into Urns... would pouring these Urns into the Lake not Yield the same results?
The Sacrificial Engineer in Spaights draft took a Cruciform pose before he was consumed by the Scarabs... he was Sacrificing his Body to Create.
If we latter look at the Urns in Spaights draft, Fifield knocks one over and Scarabs swarm out and one burns into his Helmet and allows others in to BITE him... Fifield then convulses, pupils dilate, like the Primate from the opening Scene... Fifield does not get consumed like the Sacrificial Engineer, he gets Evolved like the Female Primate only Fifield evolves into something related to the Xenomorph with Acid Blood, thus those Urns must have contained Scarabs that had already consumed Xeno related DNA.
This however is just my interpretation...
There had been changes and so its a question of what changes and does RS and FOX actually have a Basic Clue or is it a make it up as they go along?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Green Crystal Change is interesting...
The Source i had from Feb 2015, claimed the Crystal was a Shard of a Obelisk that was on Paradise, this Obelisk is neither Rock/Metal but it is Black and appears to had grown from the ground and had roots, it shined Green at the Center, inscribed with Runes.
This Obelisk was in essence the Tree of Life/Knowledge from the Garden of Eden, this was the Source of Power of Creation a Tool/Knowledge and Power only Permitted to be used by certain beings and only on the Order of certain beings.
The incorrect or forbidden use of this Tool, has dire consequences, the Green Shard in Prometheus was a piece Stolen by the Engineers and the source of Power that was more than the Sacrificial Goo, the substance obtained from it was now the source of EVERYTHING
But alas... until Paglen/Green come out and say anything or we get a release of the earlier Drafts by them.... then the Source information is nothing more than just rumor and can not be confirmed.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
bigdave, I agree many don't fully understand proemetheus but that may be due to the lack of answers, whether RS says the answers r there or not. but that's the whole point of Prometheus, its the first in a trilogy and its not meant to be fully understood. I don't think AC was exactly as ridley wanted it. im betting the path of the film is different to his original plan and would probably have gone a long way if fox and RS not squirmed and relented to the haters and we would have got better answers to prometheus
@Gavin - Posts regarding the concepts presented by Prometheus are exactly why we are all here! I know of no other movie that has gotten me to think about what I believe & why I do. I think you make a good argument for your case. I do think we have all made, and continue to make, very good arguments for what we believe we have seen & why we believe it, regarding the events presented in Prometheus? After seeing Alien Covenant, I can honestly say I will continue to trust what I believe occurred in Prometheus, until a future installment of this prequel franchise makes it blatantly obvious to us all, what exactly was, & is now going on! HAHA!! I guess I would not mind it if Sir Ridley would indeed 'enlighten' us all? Great post!
Indeed it would appear that way...
It would be interesting to see his original plans, and it would be interesting to see Paglen/Green works..... i would also be interesting in this to purely see if the Source i had was correct or complete BS!
However much if not all what they said, does add up to the plans RS had and some of what was said, had made it into AC.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave - I am with you there! I am ready for Sir Ridley to come clean in the next installment/installments as to what he wants to be understood. I am beginning to believe we all do deserve to know?
just really read in full detail the OP and its a really interesting theory. don't agree with it one bit but still a very interesting theory. its too far fetched for me. RS answered the sacrificial scene. they seed worlds. we are them. that's supported by the DNA match. the more logical plot is what was suggested in prometheus. they continued to visit earth and help advance civilisation yet we did something to anger them so they chose to destroy us yet something prevented them from doing that. theres a hologram that supports this. and why return every so often to pick people up? just pick up the required number in one go no? and xeno prime? that's expanded universe material that most of the people who watched Prometheus wont have a clue about so I don't think RS would include it. I like the theory but I just think whats suggested and supported on screen is in fact what is intended to be. just my 2 cents lol
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