'“You might have changed him” !?!??!!!
(This is David speaking as Walter btw)
I never thought this book would make my David x Daniels ship stronger…
Sure there was A LOT of Dalter and some fluffy Walter x Daniels but THIS I didn’t expect!'
dk - I'd vote for the possibility that he's telling the truth. He adds that he underestimated her, that seems to be convincing for me.
Ati I haven't read the novel but David has never been trustworthy for anything except to ruin/end lives. He is a proven liar. It might be interesting if he honestly tries to help out at some point but no one believes him because of his history. That would be a strange twist.
dk - Ok, but in this particular situation/conversation he has nothing to lose, everyone thinks that he is Walter, that's why I think that he is honest in these lines.
If Shaw had reciprocated David's feelings, I believe things would have turned out differently.
"[David] is looking for love but in all the wrong places." - Fassbender
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."
Shaw helped out David and that didn't get her very far. It got David really far though. I still am fascinated by his character though- keeps one always guessing.
I guess I have to quote Mr Joshua from Lethal Weapon regarding David- "I wish I could believe you. But unfortunately, I don't... "
Dig the Lethal Weapon quote XD
Shaw indeed helped David which made him fall for her harder. He wiped out the Engineers for her so they could begin a new Eden but she refused. David doesn't like things he loves leaving him so he incubated her. If Shaw had reciprocated his feelings I think he would have been a tab bit friendlier android but it's theoretical at this point.
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."
The danger with discussing the David/Shaw arc and interpreting it is we have three versions of it.
1) The film version.
2) The film version with the Crossing and Advent.
3) The book version.
To respond to this intriguing narrative which is part of much longer passage where Daniels questions "Walter" over what he made of David and his reaction and assert things from say the Crossing which does not necessarily exist in ADF treatment is to pile a supposition on top of another one.
Some would argue thats great, we can make up our own narrative out of all of this and project what we want on to it. We can make it both highly logical or entirely illogical. We can rationalise all of this conflicting information and make sense of it only to be left with one big question.
The real question is does David mean anything. The answer is no other than Weyland's reasons for creating him have been retconned to make him have an overwhelming desire to sub create.
Let me put to you a much more exciting and engaging vision.
When David and Shaw arrive at the Juggernaut they are in a plausible co dependent relationship.
The big leap forward is her repairing David and his response. We know in the imagined world he was given a programme which allowed him emotional cognition his reaction to Weyland, The Crew, Engineers and then Shaw all show an emotional back draft.
Its at that point it all goes wrong but could have gone very right.
He learns something about the Engineers in flight. Something really appalling. They view us as a biological construct from a mechanical foundation that can be redacted and improved entirely the opposite of a notion of a mind over matter creationism.
He wakes Elizabeth and of course she wants convincing and this is the answer, though an unpalatable one, that she sought, why did they create and then wish to destroy us.
Would they then bomb the s..t out of them or try and learn there secrets (and who made them) and out of that comes the most terrific story where David acts as the anchor for the action, facilitating everything and Shaw, as Noomi hoped for, becomes a much darker character. To extend their co dependency by David the ultimate butler always meeting Shaw's needs because he is infatuated with her and eventually that leads to her fall (Paradise Lost) could have been really compelling. To watch this wide eyed idealist come up against this horrific culture of consensual sacrifice with David finding in Shaw the only being that embraces him gives us logical character development, an expose of the Engineers and a deepening of the mythos. Not hey I was given a creative chip so I gotta make the beast and slaughter you guys and come up with something "better", which is self evidently not better at all because Ripley makes it toast.
In the real world the script was written without the Crossing, the Engineers were toast and Shaw was the first to be hugged. Bits have been added (The Crossing and the novelisation) but lets not kid ourselves, there was no plan for David, other than he is as mad as a box of frogs and that explains anything he says or does.
This beautifully written debrief in the book reminds me of how much richer the David/Shaw narrative would have been rather than essentially Walter taking Davids place and Daniels taking Shaw's, except that its really David and Daniels is toast.
That's sarcasm from David. I mean he is spending now time with Daniels and knows it's not going to change him. He shows no emotion. He smiled at the thought of a society composed entirely of synthetics. He is has some plans on that and 2 facehuggers. Maybe he learned the final lesson from Shaw that humans cannot be trusted.
Don't underestimate David, nutcase as he became.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
Such a shame most of this appeared to be brushed under the carpet and only a bit kept, purely as they could not ignore everything regarding David and Shaw.
Its a shame as i think a Movie/Novel Set at the Period of the Crossing could have been very interesting, the clues we have are ambiguous and so there could be many ways this could have been explored.
I think some IMPORTANT things have to be considered regarding the Character of Dr Shaw and David and their Agendas.
David: I think it was set up to show that David had gained more free-will, certainly more than Androids would have been permitted and while he was their to serve Weyland, David realizes the flaws of Mankind and David sees himself as superior, yet we see David is treated as just a Tool by mankind, while he is very Emotionally Complex, he is just a Machine, and so i think he resents some of the actions and opinions aimed at him. Such as the treatment by Holloway.
I have the feeling that the Gift of Davids Free-will and programing to make him more Weylands Son, actually leads to David actually feeling he is more than just a Robot... he begins to feel the only difference between him and a Human is that one is a Biological Machine, the other a Synthetic and while David does not have a Soul... the Question is does Mankind have a Soul... because if there is NO SOUL as far as the Spirit that lives on in a After-Life, then indeed Mankind has nothing over David apart from being able to Re-Produce.
A Soul can be defined, by a persons Actions and Deeds, and Good Deeds could make someone have a Good, kind Soul.. which David had noted that Dr Shaw had.... where as Wicked and Selfish Deeds could show someone to have a Bad Soul... like Peter Weyland.. And so for David his actions and responses could govern what kind of a Soul David has.
We can also look at a Soul as being the collective Memories and Experiences that we have in Life, each Experience Shapes us as a Person, each Memory is what defines us. The Concept of a Soul is when we pass on then our Memories/Experiences Live on as they are our Spirit and not just a Storage of Memories/Experiences imprinted on our Brains.... for if it is the case of the latter, that there is NO SOUL as in The Spirit.. Then its our Memories and Experiences that are a SOUL and if this is the case then indeed David would have a SOUL and this is something Fassbender Pondered
And so Once Weyland was gone, David is free, as free as you and i are to make our own choices. Davids upbringing and interaction/treatment would certainly effect his Moral Compass, having been brought up by Weyland and how Weylands Pursuit of Immortality and Creation which leaves behind a Legacy so we can be Immortalized by our Creation or Great Deeds. This is very much where the Ozymandias Poem fits well, as its to show that when a Person has gone... what is left to remember them by is their Works and Monuments built in their name/image but in time these things can be forgotten and crumble to dust.
So i think this imprints on to David, and how he can not be Human because he can-not create... not how a Human can, and so he would from seeing how Weyland was, he would want to create his own Legacy and Works.
Dr Shaw: She had her faith tested, what she hoped to find in meeting our makers, ended up being totally different to what her Faith would have suggested... yet she still holds onto the Notion of a Higher Power and that someone/something must have Created the Engineers and who ever this being or what ever is, must have had some reason for Creating the Engineers, or if the Engineers have no Creator, then Dr Shaw would want to know why was we created, visited, taught things and then abandoned.
So for her Shes has NOTHING for her getting the change to meet these Beings in the slight hope she may get her answers at the risk she will get Not and Death, is all Elizabeth has to live for. For Her, her life no longer matters, she just wants Answers and wishes to Pursue those Answers even if the chances of getting any are remote and the chances that Death awaits is High.
DAVID... being Immortal to a degree however, would want to LIVE, he is free, and i think he does not see himself as a mass of Circuits, and Synthetic Mechanics... he would not want to go and RISK meeting these beings with the potential that he would more than likely ended up disembodied like he was the last time he came Face-Face with one of these Would be GODS.
David also grew fond of Dr Shaw, because how she treated him, he would have felt that at last someone is treating him more than a MACHINE.. so David would grow to Care for Dr Shaw, and he would not want to see her Die... he is fond of her and her Companionship.
And so for him, he would see the Chances of being accepted by the Engineers being slim, where as if he chose to Destroy them, he could Salvage Dr Shaw some Answers from the Ruins... and Guarantee his and Dr Shaws Survival.
David would not doubt be intrigued in the Bio-Weapon and Creation and the "Sometimes to Create One must First Destroy" comment could show us that there was more to the Engineers plans than just to Lay Mankind Waste... and so this is something i am sure David would be interesting to explore.
No Doubt... he discovers a bit more between the end of Prometheus and prior to arriving at Planet 4/Paradise about the Engineers, i think there is a lot that could be explored regarding Dr Shaw and David.
The starting a NEW EDEN is interesting and i feel a missed opportunity, when we saw the leaked Photos of Davids workshop and those Humanoid Skulls, and those Baby-Head Xeno/Neomorphs... it had me wondering how did David get these things?
At the time i did wonder, could they have been DR SHAWS Children? i feel this was a interesting thing they could have explored, that would fit with the COVENANT theme...
Dr Shaw... has NOTHING... if David also then lays waste to the Engineers then Dr Shaw has no way of getting her answers, only by what David can find out..
But what if David can offer Shaw some Solace?
What if he tells her he could find a way so she can be able to Bare Children? Something Dr Shaw thought she could never have... only Child Birth she had was the None-Traditional Demon Child that lead to the Deacon.
I feel that they could have explored that David could propose a way to allow her to create, this could have been explored in a number of ways.. Can David find a way to allow Dr Shaws Egg Cells to become Humanoid Off-Spring? Could David obtain some Engineer SEED?
I think the possibility could have been more Horrific, if David managed to Impregnate Dr Shaw to have a Child or Twins... a Male/Female Pair and then have it where it appears Dr Shaw now has a chance to start a New Eden in the confines of the Juggernaught until the outside is SAFE...
Then have it where one of her Children gets infected, maybe this happens after Dr Shaw has rejected Davids Advances? maybe this Child David keeps from Dr Shaw, not wanted to allow her to see what becomes of it.
David would then be fascinated at the Hybrid that the Child has become and Kick Start his infatuation with the Engineer Experiments..
David comforts Dr Shaw and makes it known he loves her and they can create another Child, she Rejects him and David reacts bad to this and goes off the Rails... and then decides to use Dr Shaw and her Egg Cells for his experiments...
This is something i was thinking about...
However the Concept Art etc now confirms that David managed to obtain Engineer Babies and Infants and this is how those Baby Skulls had arrived in his Workshop.
But alas... i feel a better story could have been told, i feel THE CROSSING deserved a deeper story, and we can only hope maybe ADF could do a book that covers the events from when Dr Shaw had recovered Davids Body/Head right to the Point that Dr Shaw had died and Davids experiments and leading up to when he Set off that Signal to attract more HOSTS.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Great post BD and the reason that I interjected in this quote from the book is you get a real sense of just where the enquiry (not between Daniels and David but between Shaw and David) could have gone. Two people, one an emotionally cognitive robot, the other a believer in the soul considering the Engineers and their behaviour and their beliefs. For Elizabeth believing in an after life to be brought up against her makers whose own view is of mechanistic Engineered creation would have been huge.
The conceit of Pandemonium which could have lead to a third film is the Engineers themselves as Ridley mentioned in 2015 were merely a superior species and therefore Shaw and Davids conversation about the notion of life and the soul remains unresolved and the subject of a third film.
Put simply listening to David who has fooled the wet Daniels doesn't compare with Davids admiration and love for Elizabeth particularly once he has got ahead from her needlework.
PS Why I would have arrived at a live Engineer planet is three fold :-
1) You can learn so much more about them.
2) The tension between a live Engineer and a live Elizabeth would have been riveting.
3) David in response to Elizabeths treatment (the Engineers may wish to sacrifice her) would show his commitment to her and by "poisoning the machine" (the original idea) and rescuing Elizabeth their curious Bond is maintained. You are quite right to point out the jeopardy that David would consider in confronting the Engineers but this is where the multiple Davids come in. The original David would send in a cloned David created out of the Engineers technology. After all if mankind had robots would not the Engineers be found to have there own technology for duplication riffing to some extent the matrix vibe which you hinted was included.
At some point Shaw would have undergone a consensual fall and in third movie we would have seen her fall allowing David to provide her with offspring AND having fallen and then finding out her faith was right.
The problem with all of this is we are talking about a fascinating thought provoking allegorical tale where denture chops is absent.
Indeed there was so much that could have been done...
I abandoned my Prometheus 2 because i could not 100% narrow down a way to deal with what state the Engineer world was in, and what true Agenda would have been, i had narrowed it down to a few ideas.
But i always felt if this Race of beings was plentiful and their observation of Mankind and how we had created our own Creation would be a tricky subject as far as how would David and Shaw be accepted and then what are the consequences, be that they are accepted or shunned... if the World had a abundance of Engineers then down the line we have to ask why none come back to Earth in the Time-line should David and Dr Shaw turn up....
A lot depends how far Paradise would have been... i felt in AC it was a bit to much on our Door Step..
So i would feel arriving at a World that has seen Destruction and having a few Engineers surviving in some kind of Noahs Ark would have been the road i was going for, where the Engineers realized they could use Dr Shaw to Procreate their nearly extinct species.
I was tossed up to have them Enter a Agreement with Dr Shaw, as they could offer her Child Birth, or have her reject this and then used against her own will.... or have it that David offers her up. I would have gone for David eventually making a Covenant with Dr Shaw and breaking it..... making a Covenant with the Engineers which inc using/giving them Dr Shaw and then David breaking this too.
I was toying with these ideas before Alien Covenant was not even in any form of Draft... so no Covenant name came to mind.. i just felt David would use the Engineers and Shaw to his own Agenda.
And so yes there really was a lot that could have been explored...
I still felt arriving a a thriving Engineer World would lead to in-continuity errors, because even if these beings chose to ignore us and see us as not a threat... surely seeing a Creation of ours being able to use their Technology would be a concern and if these Engineers were aware of LV-223 and the Black Goo then surely they would see the threat and no doubt Send off a armada to deal with LV-223 and maybe then Earth.
Which was another sticking point for me, when i was working on a Prometheus 2... the Question of do those beings on Paradise know of the Black Goo and LV-223, at least as far as what the place had became.
Looking at Alien Covenant.. the Way David Bombarded the Planet and killed all those Engineers off, i had wondered from the Lead up to the Movie and more so when i saw the Movie... how could David had gained Hosts and Parts for his Experiments?
As those Char-grilled Bodies outside looked of No-Use..
I had speculated on this site, that its likely some Engineers ran into that Cathedral Dome for Sanctuary and it would cut itself off from the Infection outside. And if the Engineers are close to Human, then in times of Peril it would be to make sure the Woman and Children are Saved First.....
And so i felt a number of Engineers would have survived inside the Dome, but the Environment outside was Toxic and would have stayed this way for years, and so the Engineers inside would have had limited Food/Water which again the Females and Children would have been given priority.
And so David would only have to wait until Malnutrition had happened and then these Engineers beings would be more easy pickings... thats the only way i could explain HOW David managed to gain and subdue Engineers for his Experiments..
As we saw how David Fared against One Engineer in Prometheus... but i dont think those working on Alien Covenant paid attention to such details... in part it was very poorly written in places as far as Logic goes.
The Xenomorph related Organisms that David had on Display is another Error, they had been Cut in Half and Preserved, yet no real signs of Tools or Agents that would allow for this.. never mind the Acid Blood and then the Big One... How was David never seen as a threat of attacked by any of these Creatures?
The only logical way is if he controlled them or they merely had no interest in him and when some of them naturally died or he found a Poison he could use to kill some, thats how he was able to Cut them up for his Work Shop.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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