How to save the franchise

daliens

The fresco in the headroom turns into an Alien Egg held by Alien hands but you need to read the tie in material to see this with any clarity.

It is also on record that much of what is in the mural are easter eggs (unfortunate pun that). So take from it what you will until Awakening where David will be the Jockey something I am even clearer about after Advent. There his creatures and its his vocation to set aside the timidity and rejection of the ancient rituals of Sacrifice and bring his creations to the galaxy. 

chili

I think a Prometheus sequel rather than an Alien reposition would have probably sold the same number of tickets. Its just the feedback from monster centric fans would have been more vitriolic.

However heres the thing. If Prometheus Pandemonium had been a riveting psychological thriller with breath taking visuals which gave us the kind of depth of "Advent" and people began saying you gotta see this one its (Cool/sick/a great movie) depending on your vernacular it would have sold. Those second and third week audiences for a second movie (the first one is curiosity) come from a sense of wow go see this.

When I saw the double bill and the I max presentation on the very first days the cinema was half empty that tells me A L I E N is a limited brand now. 

Michelle

Well, the real money is probably from the home video market and streaming industry anyway . . .

But wasn't the short films a good solution to the tug-of-war?

Oh and lets talk about Conventions!

Remember when Sigourney stood up at XenoCon 2008 and gave her famous speech!?  Or Ridley showing the first reel from Prometheus  @ XenoCon 2011?!   Of course you don't, cause it never happened!

All other 'Big' franchises have their own conventions. Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek..

If this franchise is going to grow, I'd think having a convention would be a good start?

I think Michelle Johnston can save the franchise,  her comments are always unlocking the truth for the good readers here.

If only Fox would do some research on this forum.

There has been some good comments here..

And i think a lot of the disappointments has come down to each type of Alien/Prometheus Franchise Fan have their own expectations.

ALIENS Fans had maybe expected a bit more of a Action movie and RS and Co did not help themselves when they hinted the movie would have a blend of Alien and Aliens to it, and when they also said it would have a LOT of Aliens in it.

Alas the Actions Scenes were not that Large and it was even less a Action Flick than Alien R, we kind of got a in between Alien 3 and Alien R as far as Action (Aliens vs Humans), so indeed i think the more Action expecting fans would be let down.

ALIEN fans was expecting a more turn to the Original, as RS did say he intended to Scare the $"£% out of people, and they would Top the Chest Buster and even some scenes where basically trying to retread the Alien Trope..  

Sadly its hard to match what Alien did, as people have been introduced to the Xenomorph more and more over the years, that even keeping it in the shadows will not have the same affect as Alien did, but only replicate what Alien 3 did.  And we all know about Chest Buster and Face Hugger and Egg and so there is no surprise when Character A goes to a Egg, then we know there will be a Face Hugger and then we know Character A will Chest Bust latter.

For Alien Fans they expected a movie that would Return more to the Classic House of Horror/Maze like in Alien but only the 3rd Act touched upon this, mainly the Xenomorph on the Covenant and it simply did not compare to the Original or even as a whole the movie did not Live up to the Scares that ALIEN fans thought it would... RS said he was going for the Horror and to Scare the $£%^ out of people and even Cast Members claiming this is the Scariest of them all.... which it was not.

PROMETHEUS Fans... knew the movie would revolve around David and taking a Engineer ship to a Engineer Homeworld, and while they knew it would be taking us more to connect to ALIEN than the Journey intended for David and Shaw, the way the elements from Prometheus was dealt with proved to be a disappointment to Prometheus fans... most stuff was simply brushed under the carpet.

It never provided answers, they just seemed to come up with the quickest way to take out Shaw, the Engineers and Fast Forwards to a quick explanation of Davids experiments... but it did touch upon a Arc to Davids character and touched upon a bit of the philosophical/creation themes that Prometheus Started.

And so every Market of the Fans expected something different to what they got...  The movie was not quite a return to the ALIEN Horror element, it was not a Action movie like ALIENS and for PROMETHEUS fans it seemed like they was trying to brush these themes under the carpet so they can get back to ONE thing and thats the Xenomorph and WHO made it and WHY

Then the Curveball that was David created it, and hints to Why, are something that very much while interesting and fits with Davids Arc as far as his upbringing and experiences... is still something that certainly wont be accepted well by many ALIEN and ALIENS Fans and even some PROMETHEUS fans may find this U-Turn a disappointment.

I seem to get the impression Aliens fans and somewhat Alien fans see Alien Covenant as just a Prometheus Movie, going for what Prometheus was showing and not giving Alien and Aliens fans what they wanted.

Some are still not happy at the Juggernaught vs Derelict, the Space Jockey being these 7ft or so Humanoids...

And now they have been FED that David Created the Xenomorph and the more Quicker Infection/Gestation and different Chest Buster are all things Alien and Aliens fans may be disappointed about and the Blame gets laid at David and Prometheus.

Where actually Alien Covenant did not cater to the Prometheus fans, it covered some of it, but it appeared in a way that they cant ignore Prometheus and so left as little of Prometheus as they needed to Shut the Door on it and then go towards ALIEN.

As far as Prometheus 2 goes... it would be interesting to see if Paglen and Greens drafts every see the day of light, because when i look at what the Source told me over 2.5 years ago and then i see some of the Concept ideas for Alien Covenant both stuff that was not used and the various works in Davids Lab, it does seem to hint at what i was told.

The ADF Novel seems to give hints to what the route that Prometheus 2 was going to be.

In a nutshell the Sources clues was hinting to David Re-Creating either the Xenomorph or Deacon and showing with these Experiments we could get a IDEA of how the Xenomorph in Alien came to be... And poor Dr Shaw would be used to allow David to create his MONSTERS and Her Fate was more closer to the Concepts, in that She was incapacitated and harvested for Davids Agenda.... every time she would be changing into something else.

Fox "We spent how much on a set that wasn't in the movie?!!?"

Fox "Ridley do you really need these large set pieces?!","Can't we just film this scene in a abandoned warehouse?" 

@BigDave , How about if David planted the Egg aboard the Sulaco? He was mad that they ruined his LV426 experiment, killed all his Xeno's(nuked em' even!!)! ....So He has Mother route the Sulaco to a prison planet and does the crew in...Must of felt good to get his revenge.

Oh and David hand picked Gorman. Knowing this would be a disaster mission.

?

MonsterZero - Your lines about the SW Universe are gold. You mention 7 movies not counting Rogue One?

As for me, Empire is the best SW movie, I like Jedi as well, but Rogue One's space battle scene is the best.

I think Episode 7 is a disaster! And I think 8 will copy Empire!

Your point about the cons is true, no doubt.

Ati - I forgot about Rogue one! might say 3 out of 8?

Also forgot about the Ewoks....

Could you imagine a small band of tiny furry creature defeating a hive of Xeno's? ......Don't think that would fly in the Alien verse.

Critters vs Aliens is a more remarkable possibility... :)

Lawrence of Arabia

This. Ridley has planned for several films so of course he wasn't going to answer everything at once because then it would defeat the purpose and allure of the prequels. A lot of the answers from Prometheus are in the film for those willing to look too.

I agree. I think there are a few more answers than perhaps people realise, and it takes a repeat viewing to really capture the whole of the film...

It certainly helps that the extra material has been made available on the Blu Ray, and I love all the promo/post film stuff!

Seph7 - Thoughts added by Lawrence of Arabia are loved by me. :) His comments are my guiding light.

Michelle Johnston

Your conjecture that Ridley is trying to mediate the needs of those who want an action tentpole movie more akin to A L I E N S verses those who want something thoughtful and intellectually challenging where we are not spoon fed like Prometheus is actually the entire point of this thread and the danger for the franchise so we are constantly repeating the key theme and not recognising the reason we are here which is that Covenant undersold Prometheus.

Ironically this shows that exposition can reveal huge amounts of story in very short order when executed in a creative way. The notion that thoughtful exposition kills off momentum was never an issue in the 20th century cinema its just in this hyper knowledge saturated age where people have the attention spans of a gnat have made studios nervous. But I put it to you those shorts full of all types of different content show that 5 minutes can achieve a huge amount in cinema without killing the narrative.   

That said as Dave has said like me when he left viewings of Covenant he heard people say it was OK but wow it was far to slow and took to long to get going. They are there for their breaking bones fix whilst they much on Popcorn and nothing else and unfortunately in the more general publics mind that what an Alien prefix movie is all about. I  have a number of friends who are surprised that I would go and see Covenant knowing I like a thoughtful film that again demonstrates the problem with the brand. If you want bigger audiences you need to break out and ensure that if the fan boys go you explain why they are not wearing helmets.

I don't really think it did undersell Prometheus... If we take the story at face-value, most of the crew weren't aware of the Prometheus, or if they were, they simply didn't care. That wasn't their bag. We also have to remember that, without Shaw around to stop David, he was never going to divulge everything to anyone, not even Walter.

Let's look at the facts; if Shaw had survived, David wouldn't have been able to kill the Engineers on Planet 4, and he would have been no match for them. No signal would have been sent, and the Covenant would never have diverted away from their course...

I'm not sure why you think exposition is a problem for the 21st century movie-goer... I've never heard anyone complain about a film being too long. If anything, there are often complaints that a film is too short. It's why people love the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit extended editions. They're all over three hours long.

I'm also not sure why anyone would say that Covenant is slow to start... There's action from the get-go, and it takes only 20-25 minutes for the first big action to hit. I remember thinking that it was incredibly fast-paced, and seemed to be over before I'd realised!

I hate to say this, but Ridley Scott is painting himself into a corner. The original 'Alien' movie (plus the deleted scenes) included all the information we needed to know about the xenomorph. Even the life cycle of the alien was covered. That's why many fans were shocked when the alien queen showed up, literally out of nowhere. That fact started the complication of the franchise. Had he stuck to the original movie, there would be no queen to try to explain now with these prequels. And now RS says that David created the xenomorph! How can he claim that if the Space Jockey has been on LV-426 for about 2,000 years sending the warning signal??? It just doesn't follow! I've attached a link to prove that the xenomorph existed long before the "Prometheus" mission was even started. You can watch the video at https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JY9MZpktwwQ/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEWCMQBEG5IWvKriqkDCQgBFQAAiEIYAQ==&rs=AOn4CLApnt0fBk8O5tCeUTdOca1YIbITpw .

leramos2010 unfortunately the link didn't work. Can you fix it?

leramos2010 unfortunately the link didn't work. Can you fix it?

Hopefully they will have the next movie as a survival movie. People getting into situations that they are not prepared for. They got to focus on the human characters, the AI should come after that. Not even the monsters would be effective if we don’t have credible human characters that we can identify with. For example in Alien 3 we get to know about some of the characters for example when the doctor tells us about his story, I really like that. Even one of the characters that had a small role said something about an explosive his line was “I saw one of these explode in a bunker once, great stuff”). Just some small things like that gives some sort of information about them.

I hope that they will have more action in the next movie. Alien 3 wasn’t a pure action movie but it wasn’t that far between the action scenes. Alien Covenant was too slow but they also had more interesting characters in Alien 3. The third movie is my favorite still, after many years.

I honestly don't see how people can think AC was slow... I just don't get it...

I don't think saving the franchise should be the focus. Making the best movie you can do should be the main thing. With a straight forward story with characters that have the smarts to walk around an alien world with  a protective suit or at least ear muffs.There's not enough Giger in the Neo/Proto/Xenos and it seems like too much of a tacked together script of than a proper story. There's too much ego around the Fox table to get a good Alien movie done.  How can AC cost 97 million and the story is half baked? did they lose the beat sheat? 

Space JOC has summed it up below.

"There is nothing wrong with the franchise, we're still waiting for Awakening which is obviously going to explain more!"

Great analysis Michelle!

I agree with all you say. It’s a shame that execs pay so much attention to fan pressure, or that a culture of belligerent ownership among so many fans has become commonplace. Many classics would not have found their final shape if fans had dictated the outcome, or producers had always compelled the director to play it safe. An auteur can’t function if he/she’s not given the space to take a story in an interesting, though not immediately multiplex crowd-pleasing direction.

Ridley’s first instinct, to follow a sideways route into the discovery and creation-myth of the monster, was correct, in my opinion, and the ‘compromise movie’ that Michelle so rightly calls it, and that we got with Covenant, is always going to be an awkward beast.

I can only hope that, if Fox reduces his budget, they give him full license with Awakening, and that Ridley follows his own star.

Seph7 - where have you seen a Prometheus workprint?

joylitt - the growing pessimism of these movies? they have been pessimistic/nihilistic from the start. respectfully, that is their appeal, in a world where so much of our culture is shiny, smiley and almost pathologically optimistic. so an Alien movie without the darkness would not work at all. Resurrection is not well liked because it is a comedy, although a dark comedy. Personally, I like a lot of things in AR, and if you search for Slavoj Zizek on the embryo discovery scene, that adds a lot of interest. but dark, atheistic, nihilistic, anxious, horrifying - that's why why love these movies!

(and yes, I wear a lot of black....)

Prometheus didn't need to be a prequel of Alien but its own stuff in the Alien universe.
Prometheus and its following didn't need to lead to the first Alien movie but could have just focused on the Engineers,their culture,their ways and their tie to the xenomorph.
In fact i would have prefered that Prometheus was closer to a story like in the mountain of madness from lovecraft or forbiden planet ! About an ancient race which try to play gods and gets wiped out by their creation which happen to still haunt the remaining of their civilisation.

This said, Ridley should have kept to his initial vision and not try to give people f..king Aliens as those so called Aliens are one of the main problem with Covenant !
At this point the best Ridley can do is close the circle with a last movie by finishing the David arc and stop making Alien movie or i fear that he will kill the franchise once and for all.

Regarding the xenomorph, i think that it is not cooked. The only thing which is cooked is the aspect of its lifecycle which has been rehashed since the first movie: Egg-> Facehugger-> chestbuster-> Xenomorph. This is boring and doesn't bring nothing new to the franchise. At least the movies Aliens and Alien 3 try to bring something new.
I think that a new Alien movie should make the economy of facehugging and chestbursting and try to focus on some aspect of xenomorph never seen before while still being consistent with the universe.

I would personnaly like to see:
* A single xenomorph either sentient or which did evolve to something way more sinister,smart and dangerous. As the Xenomorph is an alien creature, an inovative writer can develop other aspects of the Xenomorph never seen in a movie. Evolution toward sentience and/or continuous morphing to become more dangerous and adapted to its environment at each iteration would be amazing. How some human capable and SMART face such a foe ? Do they get wiped out or do they manage to make it run for its money ?

* A massive/overwhelming hive of xenomorph fighting mankind in all about war and winning despite man technology. Some exotic types of xenomorph could be introduced resulting from mutations/evolutions achieved in order to fight against marines weapon

@murnau

It was a fan edit that had all the deleted and extended scenes put back in. Essentially the same material you got on the Blu Ray, but put all in on. It was on YouTube, though I've no idea if it still is...