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How to save the franchise

How to save the franchise

3 Upvotes85 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
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joylitt

Aug-04-2017 9:19 PM

This Youtuber seems to know how. In just 8 minutes, and with a side by side selection of footage from the different entries in the series that speaks for itself, he offers a very sensible analysis of what the franchise needs to do in order to move forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78w3fK9_2cQ

85 Responses to How to save the franchise

Seph7

Aug-05-2017 3:31 PM

Lawrence of Arabia

The Alien franchise needs saving from some of their fans. They do not grasp what Alien is but instead want cheap scares and action with no subtext unless it's full of hope. Alien has always been an nihilistic art film, it's a thinking man movie, and Covenant embraces that. 

Absolutely agreed. I'm tired of the gore-seekers... That's not entertainment.

joylitt

Aug-05-2017 3:45 PM

Precisely. Gratuitous, computer generated gore like the one in Covenant is not interesting nor entertaining. Provide suspense and an intelligent script and the masses will flock to see the next movie.

Starlogger

Aug-05-2017 4:47 PM

I agree, to a degree, that "Alien" required no prequel. No movie ever does...except those that have a fanbase that wants to know more. And "Alien" fans are those people. We DID want to know. We all were clamoring for the "why" about that big ol' "Star Beast Big Chap". Now, we might not be happy with the answers we have received, but who ever is? I am still going to my grave never believing that "David" the AI is the ultimate XX121 "creator". I will NEVER buy that...ever. No matter what they show me on film.

So, yes...A:C is "weak"...that I agree. But, it's still a wonderful movie; however, had the Prometheus story been told in the right way...right Director? I don't know...then we could've/would've had a fantastic "beginning" that everyone would've been interested in. Now, we simply have a confusing mesh of ideas from varying scriptwriters and a Movie House wanting "More Xeno" in order to try and push up the bottom line. None of that is "wrong", but the story...if there ever was one...has certainly suffered, IMHO.

Can it be saved? Yes, it can be. But the director is the LAST person that is to have that much effect on it. The writers and the movie house are going to be the final dictators of that.

Jay Johns

Aug-05-2017 5:56 PM

The zeno  is NOT cooked. If fox would have kept the original ending and killed Ripley they would have had a great franchise. The slow methodical movements of the alien itself and look of it were incredible and still cannot be beat. Aliens was a disappointment when it came out and I was 12 when it came out. The plot of Ripley going back was stupid. I think that plot was chosen to show off the fight scene at the end. Also stupid. The queen looked ridiculous. Hudson would not shut up. The rubber suits looked bad. And the same 2 idiots continued the alien design flaw thru 4. I can totally rip apart the stupid character decisions that were made during Aliens like trolls like to say about AC. Like the fact that even though marines sat through the "meeting" the 1 still climbs on the ship after noticing the "slime". The list goes on. Continue with the prequels and reboot with the alien and queen floating in space. Remember Cameron established that the aliens can breath in space. You know, the queen hitched a ride. NO MORE RIPLEY!!!! NO BLOMKAMP!!!!!

BigDave

Aug-05-2017 6:31 PM

@Michelle

Indeed i totally agree.. and i have noticed the AVPGalaxy contains a high % of Fanboys and they even dont mind Alien R and the AVP movies.

Give them a Tentpole, Popcorn Xeno + Queens and Ripley Flick and i think 40% of the AVP Galaxy site would love that.

If they continued with P2 and explored a different Plot with David and Shaw, where we would explore some of the Big themes about Creation and Rebellion and how the Xeno was just no more than what and how Gunpowder was a game changer to Mankinds Wars..  And so to step away from the Xenomorph and i think AVPGalaxy would have a 75% who would not like this.

Explore with Alien Franchise the AI being more a Key and even hint at AI actually running the company and mankind without us even being in the know... like the Matrix and again i dont think many on that site would aprove..

some would though....

[email protected]

Your reply to Michelle hit the nail on the head.... i can see Michelles point and maybe fustration and this is the same i share and why my kind of Rant....   but you make the BIG POINT.. and that is the Modern Audience... and things have changed and indeed the Super Hero movies do seem to do well.

A lot of the current Generation of 16-25 year olds would maybe rather enjoy a Aliens and Alien R, and a bit of the AVP movies and AC compared to Alien, Alien 3 and Prometheus.
The 25-35 year olds do seem to be more inclined to Aliens

In general the 35-40 year olds may like the Apeal of Alien and Aliens and the over 40's seem to be interested more in Alien, this is in general though..

So FOX have to look at the Potential Audience and this is why AC had its problems...  if FOX made a Alien Movie that was set to be aimed only at the Alien Fans or those who liked Prometheus, then some who liked Aliens and others may not be interested so they had to try and please all these people.

But the Kicker is if every single Franchise Fan who owns the DVD's and Watches the movies say 5-10X more than the average person who has ever seen a Alien movie or knows what they are about.. and so people who take part in sites like this.

If we all went to see a Alien movie at the BOX Office and only we saw it then it would Sadly not make back its $$$$$$$ and so they have to cater for trying to get casual Alien fans and non real Alien Fans and get them to see the movie.

Hence the Marketing..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-05-2017 7:00 PM

"I have a feeling that the Alien franchise will become stale much like Terminator or Jaws"

As long as it does not get to be like the SHARKNADO'S LOL

Michelle some good Questions... and this is the great thing with the whole Prometheus Plot the Questions that connect to Prometheus that are not answered, not in Prometheus and those not answered in AC and those that are a bit but raise more Quesitions

The Ambiguity and scope and how we have not had no Answers, and how the Plot and Clues are mean every point you made as far as Questions.. we can come up with more than one potential answer for each point.

There was a wealth of information we have yet to uncover.. sadly its how do they fit it all in?  Even those from Covenant would need 2 movies to cover if we are also going to follow David the Covenant Ship to Oriage-6 where do we see what David does within the 7.5 years to Origae-6 or after.. and how do they then fit in 2-3 more Parties/Players coming in as well as the other which is the Engineers... its  a hard task to do this with ONE movie... but indeed its a case of will FOX want to set this up as a TWO Movie in case the next one is a Flop and they are left Hanging with a unfinished Two-Part Tie in to Alien where they cant leave it alone... but then what risk to carry on.

I think the safest choice is to unfortunately do what AC did...

Alien Covenant was a Aftermath to the Crossing Movie that never was... but we just get the Viral Short Video and Davids Flashback to cover what a Movie between Prometheus and Alien Covenant would cover.

And so i think now they have to do the same with the Next Movie, and so By-pass the whole 2105 to 2012 Timeline.. and have it where David has set up  a colony on Origae-6 with the colonist and they have part set this up... before David then goes about with his Agenda.

What happened on the Covenant from when David tucked Daniels into Cryo-sleep to when the Covenant made it and began to set up the Colony... have these as a few Flash Backs or Narrated by David.

Then have the incoming Engineers arrive at the end, we dont have to see them on Paradise and this saves money.. they could instead have a Juggernaught turn up to Davids Horror and then Walter walks down.... and then we see Engineers.

As Logically the Engineers would not know who did all that to Paradise, they would maybe know someone got to LV-223 and so they would likely be off to LV-223 and Earth... i cant see how they can find David because he is off on a Human Ship and we have to assume the Engineers arrive on Planet 4 way way after David has left, as it will take the Covenant over 7 years to Origae-6 and so if the Engineers arrive after 6 months they surely would catch David way before he gets to Origae-6

Also we dont know how far the Covenant had traveled when we see it in AC... it would be no more than 5 years away from Earth and i would say at least 18 Months as they had to make a Re-charge which is when disaster struck.

So in Space Terms the Covenant is not vastly far away and Mankind has a number of ships and so if the Engineers arrive on Planet 4 say 3, 4 or 5 years later and then go off what is to say they dont intercept other Human ships first, how would they know which ship to find.

So Logically they would have to get this information off Walter.

Also David has contacted the company, and it would take so many years i think for them to get the message so again the company would know what the Covenant was and its mission and maybe that it is heading to Origae-6 and so its Logical again the Company set off to Origae-6

The time a the company gets the message and then heads to Origae-6 if there ships are similar speed to the Covenant does then leave a Few Years after the Covenant would arrive.

So i think this makes sense.. but it may appear a bit more of a Aliens Remake...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-05-2017 7:33 PM

I think a Problem with AC, was indeed it was trying to please Alien Fans, Trying to Please Aliens Fans, trying to please Prometheus Fans but all in such a small way... it tried to give these Fans a little something..

While then throwing in something Fresh (Neomorphs) the U-Turn/Curveball David created the Xenomorph.

But in trying to please them all, it ended up disappointing them all for the a lot anyway.  I think Aliens fans can pick a few Good Points, and pick some Bad... and have some more Wants (more Xenos and a Queen maybe).   Prometheus fans can pick a few Good Points and some Bad and have more wants (more about the Engineers) and some of the more Purist Alien Fans would be left going WTF! and their Treat would be the Xenomorph on the Covenant Rushed Scenes.

Each New movie did add something a bit different but each new movie also split the fanbase up.

A quick Summary of a few of these...

ALIEN a near Flawless movie... that Aliens gave a decent sequel to, that may have spit some Alien Purist, in how it was a Popcorn Action flick but a decent one at that... that seemed to for some Alien Fans weaken the iconic Xenomorph.

ALIEN 3 continued on from Aliens, where it appeared the Xenomorph was no more and the only route to it was via Ripley as she had a Queen.. decent attempt a few raises questions (how the Eggs got to the Sulaco)

But for Alien Fans it was a bit of a return to Alien, but for Aliens fans it lacked the Action of the First Movie, for some it killed off Newt and Hicks off Screen... and then it Killed Ripley off.

ALIEN R with Alien 3 Ripley had met her End, but miss Weaver wanted to return despite wanting to be killed off in Alien 3 and so they had to come up with a interesting way to bring her back with a flawed way it would lead to a Queen... The movie really made the Xenomorphs more fodder again, the Queen was also made to be a bit dumb.. being pregnant and giving birth to a Newborn Hybrid Blah Blah..

This Split Fans again, as some Alien fans would not like it, some Aliens fans too... it kind of was not the best movie, it was not as serious as the others and touched more of a Hellboy kind of Comic book Character kind of flick...  The Beast was Ba"$%^dized 

Then came FOX who having decided not to touch the Franchise, as Alien R did get a bit of criticism, leading to a Plot where Ripley 8 would be on Earth and maybe then have to explore how the Xeno had got off the Crashed Space Station or a company used its DNA to introduce the Xeno and Ripley again but i think FOX was a bit uncertain about doing a Alien 5

And so we got the AVP movie which offered a back ground for the company and the Xeno being known for thousands of years.. while the Plot should be considered a alternative Time Line and Universe the movie was not to bad... as far as a Popcorn Flick was... it was like a Aliens meets Alien 3 meets Alien R with no Ripley.. to a degree.

But it made the Xenomorph look weak again, and while it gave us another Queen Battle since we saw Ripley vs the Queen . overall it seemed to damage the  Xenomorph a bit.. and the Predator a bit.. and seemed to show well Humans are not so much Fodder.

They should have gone for a AVP set in the Computer Games and Comics Timeline..

Then we got AVPR which had a decent follow on Plot, that was then not expanded into a good movie due to a shocking script and acting and it seemed a very much Low Budget, Cheesy Horror meets Action flick where again the Xenomorph was just Fodder..

And became Cooked..

so at this Point the Franchise Fanbase was Split they all had different likes and dislikes....  there really was not much they could do with a Alien R sequel... i guess they could have done.. but then it would just be like what AVPR had kind of done to a very poor level it had...

They could not surely do a AVP 3 even a Reboot because again AVPR had damaged that Cross-over and its a risk another movie would fail.

so the only thing left (apart from a Parallel movie set between Aliens and Alien R)  was to explore the Xenomorph Origin and Space Jockey.

This brings us to PROMTHEUS.. at first it was a more direct kind of prequel.. but FOX did like the Curveball about the Space Jockey/Engineers and decided maybe tone down the Xeno as it had been done over and over, and maybe something new would be best.

Prometheus got some bad reaction, the Plot was good and Bold, the execution flawed, but it did give something to think about it did expand the Universe... but this Split Fans, because some wanted more Xeno connections, some wished it had Xenomorphs in it... and so yes some thought this would be a Alien Prequel and expected it as much...

Then we get to Alien Covenant.. which i covered before its failings..

So yes its hard to please them all, so FOX have a hard task at hand. I think and hope they stick with RS Vision and dont crack into doing a kind of Blomkamps Alien 5

I think Alien 5 could be good, if it was done right and passed on the Torch from Ripley, i would hate to see a Alien 6, and Alien 7 with it being about Ripely.  A Alien 5 thats similar to Blomkamps that passes the Torch to Newt and sets up a Alien 6 that maybe covers other alternative Xenomorphs and Engineers i think could work.

The thing is FOX would not Fund and Back TWO movies at the same time... and IF they did or they was to appear near enough the same time..  Ridley Scott Felt his Prequels are whats more important, than resurrecting Ripley and the Queen and in doing so taking Alien 3 and Alien R from Canon.

Alien 5 had appeared to explore and touch upon some things that would conflict with things RS had planned with his Prometheus 2 and 3 and maybe how he wished to show the Xenomorph Origins and where any Engineer Technology is at the time of Aliens.

In addition... if RS made his Prometheus Sequel and Blomkamp his modified Alien 5 (remove bits that conflict) there is a risk that interest in Alien 5 could affect the Box Office Results of Prometheus 2

So logically they had to put Alien 5 on Hold.... but then after AC was in works, RS had wanted to do another 2-3 movies after Prometheus... and at least a Sequel (Alien Covenant) and then another after this... and so this would surely be a 5-6 year delay to even contemplating Alien 5 and so in effect put that movie to BED...

The Question FOX has now, is would a Alien 5 instead of a Prometheus sequel been better? maybe for $$$ but as for continuing the Story and the Franchise overall... then the Prequels had to come first.

its now after Alien Covenant, would FOX even consider leaving these Prequels alone and then do a Alien 5 to make $$$$ and get Miss Weaver in before she would be 100% too old?

If this was done and Alien 5 did not do well, then that would be Curtains for carrying on the Prequels...

So we can see why Alien 5 was canned...

The big Question now is where to they stand with Alien Covenants Sequels?  Maybe they now would feel they had to add a bit more the Original 3 movies had that AC did not and maybe add some of what Alien 5 was going to have?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

joylitt

Aug-05-2017 7:50 PM

BigDave Talking about Sharknado, Covenant has quite a few cringe worthy moments, like the birth of the chestburster, a scene that according to concept artists Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton was much longer in the test screenings. That was a truly laughable moment and a stab in the heart of the xenomorph reputation as a credible monster.

joylitt

Aug-05-2017 7:57 PM

Covenant has found a niche audience in those who appreciated the whimsical nature of Ridley Scott's vision, but it won't find a larger audience. Even the home video release is getting a second wave of backlash, with more bad reviews and a dropping score on imdb. At 6.6, soon to be on par with Alien 3.

hox

Aug-05-2017 10:07 PM

@joylitt, Nobody laughed in the (large) audience at the screening I attended. In my opinion, the scene is sheer brilliance. The baby Alien has glistening beauty in the destruction that it creates (hard to disagree with David's description of perfection). The music is rousing. David signals his presence, begging an acknowledgement, echoing the theme of Holloway's sacrifice. The limbs unfold and spread. The little monster, only seconds old, senses its power and superiority. It doesn't see, but it sees. It acknowledges its maker.

Michelle Johnston

Aug-05-2017 11:34 PM

[email protected]

I can see that there is a step missing in my point about the 15 to 34 generation which frankly I assumed everyone would connect.

When a studio underwrites a tentpole movie (100,000 million dollars plus) it does so believing it is going to capture the crucial segment of the audience to turn a profit. The crucial segment of the audience is 15 to 34 because it represents nearly half the audience.  

In the UK the over 55's love films like "Lady of The Van" which are made for a fraction of the cost and there are lots of lovely small films made for that age group. 

So your point is key and one which puts Alien Prequels in jeopardy as tent pole material. The crucial young audience are not naturally interested in the kind of sci fi that Alien represents.

There has to be a reason why Covenant did not do well at the box office and its not the early reviews, they were good certainly not negative, so it must be an Alien prefix movie is not a natural for the crucial audience. 

You then get those whom attend. 

Alien fans 

Aliens Fans 

Prometheus fans many of whom are original Alien films and thats when the highly fragmented feedback begins which you see on this forum and others. 

Finally

Whether you like him or not Damon Lindelof set up Prometheus to be speculative, which I loved, and intended those speculations would be answered in the follow up Prometheus movie. He has seen Covenant and said they have yet to reach the place where those answers would be found. So if the script writer feels we are in a holding pattern and thats how I see it then I am fairly clear  my response is correct. Meanwhile I can buy the Blu Ray and watch an homage to the first movie and a little of the second in the 1st and 3rd Act but because I know its familiar and I have been there before my interest is going to be to scrutinise the 2nd act and see if there is a coherent story about Elizabeth and anything remotely like answers on the Engineers that I missed in the cinema or Alan Dean Foster did not provide. I am expecting meagre fair. 

Michelle Johnston

Aug-05-2017 11:46 PM

Seph7

Thank you for responding. I have my own set of views some of which overlap with yours but they are views and interpretations not answers. 

Why is this important.

Because the entire point of a prequel series, and it is why some understandably do not like the notion of them, is to provide a coherent set of answers to the creation story in which the XXX121 came about. Not necessarily precisely how the creature was specifically created but the world into which it was created.

There is a very simple answer. The Alien Pathogen was created out of punishment for unauthorised sub creation by fallen angels who were turned into serpents metaphorically speaking the allegory of Paradise Lost but Ridley rather than pursue that has in his view gone for the much more interesting story which many people here are in denial over which is David is the creator of the creature utilising the pathogen in a specific way.

So rather than deal with creationism and a mechanical view of our origins he is simply pursuing the dynamic of immortality (synthetic) mortality (mankind) or as Marc Kermode has said Bladerunner has hijacked Alien.

It is most interesting that those who give Covenant gravitas say and all the questions will be answered in Awakening - that is a cop out. They were in the environment where every single question left open in Prometheus could have been answered and instead they made an A L I E N retread movie.    

ignorantGuy

Aug-05-2017 11:52 PM

BigDave

"Then have the incoming Engineers arrive at the end, we dont have to see them on Paradise and this saves money.. they could instead have a Juggernaught turn up to Davids Horror and then Walter walks down.... and then we see Engineers."

David's true horror would not be Walter you know, but if it was a resurrected (reanimated, maybe as in American Gods) Shaw would come out and possibly kill him as a compassionate thing for life in the Galaxy.

joylitt

Aug-05-2017 11:52 PM

I found this faux poster online. I bet this would have grabbed the attention of many Prometheus fans :-)

ignorantGuy

Aug-06-2017 12:05 AM

Michelle Johnston

I wish that the writers would only make it out to be only self perceived immortality.

Michelle Johnston

Aug-06-2017 1:20 AM

[email protected]

In one regard Covenant was audacious and ADF more so - the prologue. It really deals with this issue (as far as I am concerned) that Peter Weyland dazzled by his own creativity conjures up the notion that a mechanical being is immortal but he misses the vital point which could have been the basis for the most audacious and wonderful of stories that what makes mankind immortal is the soul.... which of course David when he is ignited does not have. 

In my vision the secret of Paradise should have been that the source of their power is mechanical (linking to the smaller theme of the Bio Mechanical creature). That David discovered the grace of humanity which is love in his feelings for Elizabeth and as a machine found his soul through infecting and destroying the source of their power. This with Elizabeths sacrifice would have brought the story in a majestic full circle from the acolyte of the new world to Shaw and David and reveal a truth which we all know that sacrifice small or large is an action of grace and goodness which years later Ripley pursues with the end of her story. 

Thematically all of that ties the big things from small beginnings of the entire series. Origin creationism, interfered fallen creationism and redemption through sacrifice. 

For those obsessed by the XXX121 all you need to know is it belongs to the second movement of the story.

chli

Aug-06-2017 2:23 AM

I don’t think the creature is cooked. It’s just that many fans are a bit disappointed in how AC was made, but I think many of us will come to like it, sufficiently, as time goes by.

How to save the franchise? In what way does it have to be saved? It did/does reasonably well in theaters (concerning money) and money will pour in from blu-rays/DVDs etc.

I think that the alien franchise will live on and that there will pop up new films every now and then, just like King Kong, Phantom of the Opera, Frankenstein etc . . .

The genre is sci-fi-horror so you must of course like that genre in order to appreciate these films. “The Crossing” was very nice, but it’s more of the drama genre? I think most of us here wants to see more films/stories centred in the alien universe, just as it’s fun to see the continuation of the Star Wars saga?

I’m looking forward to Alien: Awakening as well as Alien: Covenant - Origins. The show must go on . . .

SuperAlien

Aug-06-2017 3:44 AM

"Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if its appearance disturbs you, surely you can admire the skill that went into its design.  In case you are wondering,  I had nothing to do with it.  It lies as I found it,  a supreme example of the Engineers' skill.  And also, I suppose,  of their hubris." Those were the words of David while showing the Egg in his lab to Oram. The eggs were created by Engineers in thousands of years of practice at biological and genetic engineering. David only did reverse engineering re-creating small eggs like those on the table until he made the ones in the basement. So the meaning is that the eggs were created by biological and genetic engineering.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

SuperAlien

Aug-06-2017 3:56 AM

 With the words'in order to create one must first destroy' David describes his experiments on Holloway, Shaw, all Engineers and fauna of Paradise. He destroyed them all in his pursuit to create the perfect organism. He does not refer to the pathogen and my theory is that the catalyser ingested by the sacrificial engineer is totally different from the pathogen. 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

SuperAlien

Aug-06-2017 4:03 AM

The eggs from the derelict ship in Alien could not have been created by David because the chestburster looked different in both movies. The one from Alien looked more of Engineers ancient design.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Seph7

Aug-06-2017 4:43 AM

hox

@joylitt, Nobody laughed in the (large) audience at the screening I attended. In my opinion, the scene is sheer brilliance. The baby Alien has glistening beauty in the destruction that it creates (hard to disagree with David's description of perfection). The music is rousing. David signals his presence, begging an acknowledgement, echoing the theme of Holloway's sacrifice. The limbs unfold and spread. The little monster, only seconds old, senses its power and superiority. It doesn't see, but it sees. It acknowledges its maker.

Same here. No one laughed. The only snigger came from the predictable innuendo of David's like to Walter "I'll do the fingering"

Love it or hate it, the birth is an incredible use of CGI... Something so terrifying looks almost vulnerable with its spindly legs and tiny teeth... We of course know this to be a false sense of security...

Seph7

Aug-06-2017 4:50 AM

Michelle Johnston

There is a very simple answer. The Alien Pathogen was created out of punishment for unauthorised sub creation by fallen angels who were turned into serpents metaphorically speaking the allegory of Paradise Lost but Ridley rather than pursue that has in his view gone for the much more interesting story which many people here are in denial over which is David is the creator of the creature utilising the pathogen in a specific way.

So rather than deal with creationism and a mechanical view of our origins he is simply pursuing the dynamic of immorality (synthetic) mortality (mankind) or as Marc Kermode has said Bladerunner has hijacked Alien.

It is most interesting that those who give Covenant gravitas say and all the questions will be answered in Awakening - that is a cop out. They were in the environment where every single question left open in Prometheus could have been answered and instead they made an A L I E N retread movie.

The problem is, regardless of which movie we got, whether it was the Prometheus follow-up, or the modern Aliens for the Cameron die-hards, these answers were never going to be shoved into one movie.

Focusing the movie on the Engineers alone, as much as many of us would have loved it, would have put the franchise into Cardiac Arrest. Unfortunately, too many want the action of Aliens, which is why RS brought back the Xeno at all. It really is a case of trying to please as many as possible by giving the action fans the Xeno moments, and the exposition fans of Prometheus, a little insight into our so-called ancestors, something I am glad for, however small the nod was. It at least means that we will see more of them in the next film.

MonsterZero

Aug-06-2017 6:39 AM

Well...compared to Star Wars:

Alien series 6 films: 2 great, 4 mediocre.

The bad:questionable storylines, silly scenes. ?

Star Wars 7 films: 2 great, 5 mediocre.

The bad: Jar Jar, midichlorians, fighting yoda, questionable acting, child actors, questionable storylines, silly scenes, etc...So many cringe inducing scenes. I've probably forgotten another hundred....

I would think Star Wars should be the one who needs saving! Lol!

 

We've ducked the child actor trainwreck(Newt was excellent *whew*)

No Jamaican accented synths. "Yo mon, needs the servin'?, okey dokey....catchen' ya' later then mon"

 

Alien: Covenant could have introduced child actors(it's a colony ship)! Have a scene or two, where the children are threatened by a facehugger! Cool movies poster maybe? 

 

I think the series is really, really solid compared to Star Wars. Just doesn't have 1/4(?) of the fanbase.

 

 

King Of The Monsters

Aug-06-2017 11:52 AM

I think another reason why Covenant did not perform as well as expected was because it was marketed and tried to be a horror movie. 

The thing is, unlike watching Alien for the first time, we know what a xenomorph looks like. They have been seen in five movies now and the Giger design has lost alot of its fear factor because we know it is and how it works. 

Covenant tried to combat this by adding the Neomorph but it had barely any screen time and was pretty much a xenomorph lite.

Prometheus has showed us that there are different species in the Alien universe. I would prefer seeing different Giger monstrosities rather than constantly revisiting the xenomoroh

Lawrence of Arabia

Aug-06-2017 1:22 PM

I'm not against gore and I thought Covenant did it well but that's not all Alien should be about and it didn't start that way either. Alien is a deep and layered franchise and should continue as such. I liked what Covenant did in uniting all the films by following similar themes and I look forward to what Ridley has in store next.

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

Lawrence of Arabia

Aug-06-2017 1:25 PM

daliens While the novel does bring in a lot of much needed insight at times, it isn't canon. For all intents and purposes, David created the Xenomorph from scratch using what the Engineers have already done, the Deacon.

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

Lawrence of Arabia

Aug-06-2017 1:30 PM

Seph7 "The problem is, regardless of which movie we got, whether it was the Prometheus follow-up, or the modern Aliens for the Cameron die-hards, these answers were never going to be shoved into one movie.

Focusing the movie on the Engineers alone, as much as many of us would have loved it, would have put the franchise into Cardiac Arrest. Unfortunately, too many want the action of Aliens, which is why RS brought back the Xeno at all. It really is a case of trying to please as many as possible by giving the action fans the Xeno moments, and the exposition fans of Prometheus, a little insight into our so-called ancestors, something I am glad for, however small the nod was. It at least means that we will see more of them in the next film." 

This. Ridley has planned for several films so of course he wasn't going to answer everything at once because then it would defeat the purpose and allure of the prequels. A lot of the answers from Prometheus are in the film for those willing to look too.

 

"Nobody laughed in the (large) audience at the screening I attended. In my opinion, the scene is sheer brilliance. The baby Alien has glistening beauty in the destruction that it creates (hard to disagree with David's description of perfection). The music is rousing. David signals his presence, begging an acknowledgement, echoing the theme of Holloway's sacrifice. The limbs unfold and spread. The little monster, only seconds old, senses its power and superiority. It doesn't see, but it sees. It acknowledges its maker."

Beautifully said hox :-)

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

Michelle Johnston

Aug-07-2017 12:00 AM

daliens

Quoting elements from ADF's excellent novelisation has already done the rounds here from those like Chli who reject entirely the notion that the specific XXX121 mutagen outcome is the result of David's painstaking work carried out over his many years on Paradise. That a Xeno like outcome (a wolf) had been created by the Engineers in Eons gone by is obvious from LV 223. ADF is on record as saying the answer is meant to be ambiguous so people can work through their own need. This issue of when did the first face hugger get made worries some people and the creators respectful of this view give them a door to walk through. 

Seph7

Your conjecture that Ridley is trying to mediate the needs of those who want an action tentpole movie more akin to A L I E N S verses those who want something thoughtful and intellectually challenging where we are not spoon fed like Prometheus is actually the entire point of this thread and the danger for the franchise so we are constantly repeating the key theme and not recognising the reason we are here which is that Covenant undersold Prometheus.

Prometheus brought back people like myself to the franchise who are not the slightest interested in an action monster movie and one centred on a monster designed in 1979. Fox/Ridley, Speights/Lindelof recognised this tug of war. Paglen,Green/Logan tussled with this tug of war and the result is Covenant with its tired troped 3rd act and shorts outside of the movie like The Last Supper, Advent and the Crossing and the "Meet Walter" offering far more interesting elements which have drama, real emotional engagement and oddly enough in the case of Advent answer every question you have of David from the moment he was repaired to the moment of the last page of Covenant. Ironically this shows that exposition can reveal huge amounts of story in very short order when executed in a creative way. The notion that thoughtful exposition kills off momentum was never an issue in the 20th century cinema its just in this hyper knowledge saturated age where people have the attention spans of a gnat have made studios nervous. But I put it to you those shorts full of all types of different content show that 5 minutes can achieve a huge amount in cinema without killing the narrative.   

That said as Dave has said like me when he left viewings of Covenant he heard people say it was OK but wow it was far to slow and took to long to get going. They are there for their breaking bones fix whilst they much on Popcorn and nothing else and unfortunately in the more general publics mind that what an Alien prefix movie is all about. I  have a number of friends who are surprised that I would go and see Covenant knowing I like a thoughtful film that again demonstrates the problem with the brand. If you want bigger audiences you need to break out and ensure that if the fan boys go you explain why they are not wearing helmets.   

SuperAlien

Aug-07-2017 12:23 AM

Michelle Johnston well, I want to believe the Juggernaut found on the derelict in Alien is not David in his attempt to set loose his creatures to rule the Galaxy.

And the mural from Prometheus clearly shows facehuggers, so they were on the market thousands of years before David or Weyland-Yutani. 

I choose to believe that David tried to replicate the alien morph and the eggs were the result of genetical engineering and intended as a biological weapon. By Engineers. 

So far I still have reasons to believe so, no matter some consider same as not being canon. The canon is continuously updated by Ridley Scott but some predictability is there, the puzzle gets some clarity.

 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

chli

Aug-07-2017 2:03 AM

@ Michelle

I agree with your description of the tug-of-war between satisfying a broader audience (so the production company will get its money back), that is between a straight forward sci-fi-horror-action movie, and a more drama-based story with emotional and philosophical depth. But would you have preferred that the movie flopped, and that just a bunch of intellectuals ravished in its depth?

There is also a gender issue here, I think, where women tend to be drawn to drama (emotional problems between the characters) and men who are more drawn to action (sci-fi, horror, and action are predominantly male movie genre preferences). So, from that point of view, in order to get a broader audience (women), it might have been even wiser to focus more on the relationship between David and Shaw (like in “The Crossing”)? James Cameron succeeded with just this in Titanic where you have a perfect blend of the love story between Rose and Jack, and the action filled catastrophe?

I don’t think I quite agree with you when you say killing off momentum wasn’t an issue in 20th-century cinema? In fact, that very aspect was the reason why they cut out the scene where Dallas is egg-morphed (Alien -1979). Interestingly, Ridley Scott put that scene back in the director’s cut (2003) so this must be considered as canon? So, there we have the egg which is consistent with Giger, the mural etc, and back to square one whether David could be the creator . . .

However, I have come to look at it as “the creator-issue” not being too important. All agree that the engineers created the pathogen/mutagen, and that is the real weapon of mass destruction.

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