Alien Movie Universe

Concept artists Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton were told not to use HR Giger art in Alien Covenant

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joylitt

MemberNeomorphJul-29-2017 3:42 AM

In another great podcast by AVPgalaxy, guests Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton admit being instructed by Fox to avoid using many concepts by HR Giger due to fears of not getting permission from the late artist's state. The illustrators seem frustrated they were not able to use elements everybody associates with Alien, suggesting that was the reason why there are not too many hoses and biomechanic paraphernalia in their designs, all of which is replaced by a more organic look.

IMO, if we want to see more of the Giger's influence in future Alien movies, we need to let 20th Fox know that it would be of their best interest to reach an agreement with Giger's state asap. Personally, if I had to choose between hiring an A lister and purchasing full rights for the use Necronomicon IV, I would go with the latter. What do you think?

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/podcasts/avpg_pc_episode52.mp3

 

25 Replies

Kethol

MemberChestbursterJul-29-2017 8:50 AM

I think you misunderstand. It wasn't concepts Giger designed for Alien they were told not to use. If you look at the art Matt and Dane have posted online, you will see that in a few instances they exactly copied Giger paintings that had nothing to do with Alien, including Necronomicon 4, and in a few other drawings they did there were strong similarities to some non-Alien Giger paintings.

Anything Giger designed or painted for the production belongs to Fox. Anything outside of that belongs to the Giger estate and would have to be negotiated and approved for use with the estate.

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-29-2017 9:01 AM

I dont think purchasing the full rights to Necronom IV is a problem,  at the early stages they was indeed planning on using this design as the basis for one of the creature designs.

I think FOX/RS have looked at the Xenomorph and maybe felt the 1979 version was a bit Mechanical Looking, and decided to tone it down a little.

One thing a lot of people seem to forget with the Xenomorph and the Necronomicon designs..... that is only ALIEN really has this kind of Design, Aliens the design was less Mechanical as far as the Xenomorph, and the Queen much more so.

The movies after these Original TWO and so Alien 3 and Alien R and even AVP Movies the Xenomorphs look more a mix between the Covenants Organic look and Alien movie Synthetic.

No Doubt RS has plans to eventually bring about the more HR Giger Look, but he said we are not quite there yet... which implies by the time they Tie in to ALIEN we will see a more Bio-Mechanical Look.

I am not sure how close it would be to the 1979 version, but i would SAFELY ASSUME the Final Look by the time they Finish (if they ever do) the last Prequel would look just like the Alien Isolation Games version.

I have not listen to the Podcast, and will be busy and so i will do Monday, but i do recall that Wayne Haag had said the design was to not quite be HR Giger, but some elements would be kept closer to how Prometheus handled that Aesthetic

but of course Wayne was not working on Creature Design.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-29-2017 9:16 AM

The Alien 3, Alien Resurrection Designs are not to far off the Alien Covenant design and the Covenant Xenomorph is more closer to those than the Alien/Aliens versions.

The Queen within the Franchise again does not look no where near as Bio-Mechanical as the Xenomorphs in Aliens... the Queen looks more Armored/Exoskeleton like... 

I think FOX are maybe looking overall at the Original Design and when looking at this, it clearly looks like this Beast is some kind of Machine more than a Organism... yet its birthed from a very Organic Looking Egg/Face Hugger and from Organic Human Hosts and indeed the Classic Chest Busters also do not look as Mechanical.

So it may seem a little out of place for a truly Bio-Mechanical 1979 ALIEN Xenomorph to be birthed from a Organic Process.

Maybe this is why they are toning this element down, there are a few rumors that the reasons the Xenomorph got toned down in previous movies was to distance itself away from HR Gigers Designs so they did not have to pay him royalties etc.. but i dont know how much these are true.. if they are.

I understand there was some conflict with HR Giger over the designs process in Alien 3, so who knows.

I know a lot of Fans Typically like either or both the ALIEN 1979 Xenomorph and how it was handled or the 1986 ALIENS.

So if we asked every Alien Franchise Fan, i think we can expect a Higher % would like to see the more Bio-Mechanical Alien/Aliens look of the Xenomorph compared to say Alien 3, Alien Resurrection and Alien Covenant versions.

IF FOX still decide to continue with the next movie or two linking directly to ALIEN in that from the Experiments conducted on Planet 4 by David lead to the Eggs on the Derelict, then i am pretty sure FOX will have to go the more ALIEN 1979 Aesthetic and FOX do have people check on Social Media how their Franchise is being received and so i think there is a good chance that if they are listening to Fans, they would see that a Majority would indeed like to see the introduction of a more Bio-Mechanical Design again.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ati

MemberPraetorianJul-29-2017 10:22 AM

'I think you misunderstand.' -- by Kethol

Kethol - I think your choice of words is very careful and polite! :D

joylitt

MemberNeomorphJul-29-2017 3:58 PM

BigDave The xenomorph was not the problem. It seems the problem was the depiction of Elizabeth Shaw's cadaver. And another thing, sometimes these type of arrangements expire with time. Who knows if Fox is still able to use designs from old movies.

joylitt

MemberNeomorphJul-29-2017 4:01 PM

Kethol I don't think I misunderstood anything. This is word for word what they said (minute 30):

"But yeah, for the alien we were told exactly to stay away from this and that which is sort of confusing because... man, that is what the Alien is, so how do you not do that, how you not make it like Giger. But I think that's why things were a little more organic looking and not not so many hoses and that sort of stuff"

Thoughts_Dreams

MemberNeomorphJul-31-2017 1:28 AM

The lack of the bio-mechanical look was not that much of a deal for me, there were other things that were annoying. To me the bio-mechanical look is something that they should keep until we have come closer to Alien IMO.

Kethol

MemberChestbursterJul-31-2017 9:17 AM

@joylitt

If you are going to quote, it may be helpful to pull the quotes where they clearly say they are just speculating about not being allowed to use Giger's designs and don't know.

"I'm just speculating here, but I do understand it can be a bit fuzzy"

"Yeah, it's a little fuzzy to me"

"I don't know, it's all pretty murky to me...we're not in exactly the rights spots to know exactly what went on between Fox and the Giger estate"

"Even though Necronomicon 4 was was what pricked Ridley's ears up and, and that sort of thing, and brought him on, by the same token, Giger did the xenomorph in its final state and everything and all of that sort of language for the production".

If you read Dane's Facebook page he talks about superimposing his art over Giger originals to show how they may appear. One was Necronomicon 4, which Fox does not own. Dane also said in the art book that Ridley had a bunch of Giger artworks that he wanted them to adhere to and capture the spirit of.  Matt shows some drawings on his instagram page that were copies of, or very close to Giger paintings NOT created for Alien. He says something like 'these didn't get past approval of Giger's estate and weren't used'.

 

Lawrence of Arabia

MemberChestbursterJul-31-2017 9:28 AM

In the Art and Making of Covenant, Ridley instructed Dane and Matt to emulate Giger as much as they can. You can see the similarities through David's drawings. As for the biomechanical look, I think they are purposefully trying to stay organic right now to show the growth of the Alien and his origins considering the ancestor is an organic Deacon. I'm sure in the next film we'll see a more biomechanoid Alien.

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

ali81

MemberNeomorphJul-31-2017 9:29 AM

without changing the entire look of the protomorph enough that it doesn't resemble the original design fox will be coughing up dough to the giger family anyway.

Kethol

MemberChestbursterJul-31-2017 9:40 AM

No, Fox owns the original Alien design.

If we are talking about the proto xeno in Covenant, it was not supposed to look exactly like the one in Alien. The production artists made dozens of proto xeno designs that Ridley was not happy with. He told them to go BACK to Giger's design and mix that with a waxwork figure of a man he saw in the La Specola Anatomical collection if Florence Italy. That is where the thinner look of the limbs-with-muscles-stretched-across-them aesthetic came from.

joylitt

MemberNeomorphJul-31-2017 4:18 PM

Kethol Of course they don't know know exactly what happened behind the scenes between the production and Giger's state. But all the previous information we have about Giger's participation in the Alien saga seems to indicate that the last time that Fox paid a considerable amount for Giger's services was in 1979. I have seen documentaries where Giger states that he was not wanted for Aliens, for instance. Fox probably is just recycling designs for which they already own the rights. The fact that the citadel doesn't look very gigeresque, the look of Shaw's corpse and the organic look of the new creatures seem to indicate they were not able to use much of Giger's catalogue.

Kethol

MemberChestbursterJul-31-2017 7:42 PM

The Citadel is not supposed to look Gigeresque. The architecture was supposed to subliminally referenced ancient human civilizations.

Shaw's corpse actually did look somewhat Gigeresque. It was a riff off of Giger's Li paintings.

The new creatures were supposed to look organic, not Gigeresque, with the exception of the proto xenomorph.

The proto xeno designs were not Giger enough. Ridley had to tell the designers to make it more Gigerish, and actually told them to look at Necronomicon IV!

Matt and Dane could use any of Giger's catalogue - as long as that catalogue was the work he created for Alien. They used stuff Fox did not have rights to and the Giger estate said no.

I think if you read through The Art of Alien Covenant you will get a better picture of things. You will also find this. "Ridley had a bunch of original Giger artworks he wanted us to adhere to. He wanted us to capture the spirit of that...we were beholden to that aestetic, but in a way that we totally loved because we wanted to honor the original film" - Dane Hallett.

joylitt

MemberNeomorphJul-31-2017 7:54 PM

Kethol I don't mind the citadel not being too gigeresque. Actually, this leaves the door open to explore different posibilities. For instance: Why do the juggernaut and the temple in Prometheus look gigeresque but not the citadel. Is this due to a clash or mutual assimilation of two different cultures? Did the Engineers acquire their technology from another civilization? Are the people on Paradise not the actual engineers? I hope whoever writes the next movie give all this questions some thought. At this point there seems to be too much improvisation in these prequels, with not a clear sense of purpose or unifying direction.

Kethol

MemberChestbursterJul-31-2017 8:18 PM

I think the fact that the ships and the architecture of the Engineer buildings looks completely different clearly implies those are either different civilizations, or completely different factions of the Engineers race.

I did not see much about the temple in Prometheus that looked very Gigeresque to me, with the exception of the mural. The walls were not very biomechanical. They had a more mechanical look that was similar to Giger's "New York City" period. The interior of the juggernaut in Prometheus was not very biomechanical either, for that matter.

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-31-2017 8:28 PM

Thanks for clearing a few things up Kethol... indeed i think people can get a bit confused with the Giger connections, it appears they (creature design team) was asked to reference HR Gigers Xenomorph and related Concepts for ALIEN as well as referring back to pieces like Necronom 4 

And so people can forget that while the Xenomorph designs evolved and changed over the movies, even those in AVP Movies and Alien Insurrection you can still see they are based off the Original Designs... but are a little less Bio-Mechanical

Giger was a fan of the more feminine elements of his designs the more sleek, slender Atheistic which he had opted for his design for Alien 3 which was never used by FOX.  We can see with Alien Covenant the Design seems to indeed contain these more slender looks to it.   Apart from the Mouth and a little tone down of the none Organic Looking Pipes, there is a lot in HR Gigers Alien 3 design, that we can see has passed over to the Alien Covenant one.

I did hear 2.5 years ago there was TWO Xeno related Monsters this was before anything was known about the Sequel to Prometheus and one of these was to be based off Necronom 4 and Ultramorph unused concepts.

So its interesting to see that the Giger Estate had objected, however i find the Prometheus Concepts for Ultramorph as below

As being very similar to Necronom 4 and cant think why they could not have used similar, and not get into a dispute with the Giger Estate?

They did use Gigers Necronom 4 on the Production Clapper Boards.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-31-2017 8:34 PM

I think again though, RS has said the next movie would not directly link to Alien, and so Alien Covenant was the start of the Process to link to Alien, it would introduce the Xenomorph but as RS had hinted at, we would not get the Full Connection in this movie.

So RS/FOX have been a bit clever in how they handled this Xenomorph, because the Design they have made does now ALLOW for either of these Outcomes should they choose to change things.

1) David Created the Xenomorph and his design has to go through some additional Evolution to reach the 1979 Alien.

2) David Re-created/Evolved the Engineers Design of the 1979 Xenomorph.

So the way they handled it, means its open to explore either of the above... If they had given us a more 1979 Xenomorph and still hinted that David created it... they would backed themselves more into a corner that DAVID indeed does CREATE IT

But with the design they have, they are left open to stick to this and showcase a Evolution to the AC Xenomorphs, or even do a U-Turn again and distance Davids involvement in the Derelict Cargo.

So its quite a wise move on their behalf.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

joylitt

MemberNeomorphJul-31-2017 8:38 PM

BigDave I don't think the Giger State objected anything. 20 Century Fox obviously has a legal department that supervises everything the artists are producing. Because of what the artists are saying in the interview, I infer they would block the use of props based on designs like the following, so they don't have to buy the rights.

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-31-2017 9:03 PM

As far as the Atheistic.... its a interesting one, a number of things had changed during the design and concept for the Original Alien Prequel that became Prometheus... Earlier ideas and concepts the Ships and interior and even Space Suits (Space Jockey) did look more in line with the Alien Version.

They changed this a little to make for a more Mechanical Looking Ships and Architecture, while on the other hand giving us a bit of a different look for the Sacrificial Engineers and indeed hints that the Engineers played a key role in Mankinds Evolution and knowledge/Technology so hints as if we learned to build Temples and the like from these Engineers.

Which indeed for a lot of the Atheistic on Paradise/Planet 4 is very connected to a number of Ancient Civilizations on Earth, so this was never done by pure accident.

There are elements of Paradise/Planet 4 that have that Prometheus Aesthetic, they are however limited and mainly comes from the Docking Ship.

Does it mean different Cultures? or Races? Who knows, i think its pretty open for debate and direction they finally choose to show.

Few Key Points to AC is RS and others working on the Project had hinted/claimed. (so here are a few points).

*Beings on Paradise/Planet 4 are Engineers... however RS said the Engineers are not a Race but a Civilization and added further that Mankind has many different versions/looks and so why cant the Engineers, they are Genetically connected after all.

*RS referred to the Engineers as predating Mankind and being the Forerunners in one comment after AC was announced (well Alien: Paradise Lost), where he asked if these guys are our forerunners then who designed/allowed for Worlds to be habitable in order to allow for Seeding... so where is the Big Guy... this hints the Engineers are not the guys at the Top of the Hierarchy

*In regards to the Big Head Room, RS had said these are the 10 apostles, wise men and Superior beings.. (superior to Humans? or other beings on that World?) someone else connected to Production referred the Hall of Heads as the Hierarchy

*RS had more recently or was it someone working on Production?  I cant 100% recall but only that they had said the beings on Paradise/Planet 4 are/was the Original Engineers... quite what this means who knows..

Prometheus had given us other clues... the Last Engineer claimed he was from Paradise well what mankind would refer to as Paradise.  Which is then the destination of Dr Shaw and David

In regards to Prometheus RS did say the Elders Scene was deleted because THEY did not want to meet GOD in the First Movie... This means the Engineers are not GODs.... RS then also said about how Shaw and David will meet these beings on Paradise who are not GOD's not in the tradition sense.

This does not mean to say the Engineers and those above them are not the same Race... a Hierarchy could imply something else.

In Egypt the Egyptian Pharaohs are considered Gods among Men, yet they was only Human. They where given a Special Hierarchy above Humans and treated as Gods. They are considered somewhat divine and carrying out the GODS Will.

These beings well Selected Elite of Mankind were awarded a lot of control and had Monuments and Buildings of Special Quality built for them... some Ancient Astronaut theories claim these Pharaohs are the Chosen Mortals of GOD, and so indeed much like how Jesus is considered in Christianity.

And so maybe a Selected Bunch of Engineers are allotted the same kind of Treatment which would explain the Hall of Heads.

The Technological differences are important, indeed Paradise does have the Hanger that is used by Juggernauts, and we have the Docking Ship that are all very much Advanced Technology.

Yet most of those beings live in more Ancient Technology Buildings and Culture, we have to ask WHY?

Maybe as with the Egyptian Pharaohs only a selected few are allowed such privileges, in Ancient Egypt the Egyptian Pharaohs lived in Great Buildings, had very sophisticated and expensive clothing.  Only a Handful of Places was deemed more Advanced and Special in Egypt and their are many theories the Great Pyramids not only stood for a more Divine Purpose but was also some Ancient Technology, it is this similarity that Spaights Alien Engineers ideas was taking from.  Even as far as pondering the Engineers Seeding Ships as Pyramids.

Wayne Haagg had suggested and its only his interpretation, that the Engineers had Stolen or Found their Technology, by this he maybe means the Ships but also he could be on about the Sacrificial/Black Goo.

But again Stolen/Found... Borrowed from who?   it all comes to the Hierarchy and how they intend to show us....

It would appear the Engineers serve a greater purpose and Hierarchy but quite how many levels of Hierarchy there are is yet to be shown, and indeed if this Hierarchy directly above the Engineers are a different Race who create Engineers in their likeness.  Or if the Hierarchy are  just as the Egyptian Pharaohs and thus chosen of the GOD's maybe even having closer Genetic Ties to the GODs.... or maybe also just being the Same as the Engineers only they are a chosen Caste/Few who are allowed the knowledge and use of the True Hierarchy beings Technology.

Certainly would be interesting to eventually find out all this.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-31-2017 9:06 PM

@joylitt

Certainly, they did produce a number of Concepts that was very similar to HR Gigers Li works.... the final Dr Shaw we saw in the movie is very toned down but still a homage to Hr Gigers Li.

Yet i was informed of a different concept over 2.5 years ago, that since the last few months when Concepts have came out do seem to fit the description i was given back then, compared to the final Dr Shaw Fate we had.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

joylitt

MemberNeomorphJul-31-2017 9:26 PM

BigDave Certainly Hallett and Hatton sounded a little bit bummed out they had to be drawing all those insects...

Kethol

MemberChestbursterAug-01-2017 8:48 AM

Hallett actually said he was very proud of those. He said Matt and him insisted that every one of those drawings give an insight into David's darkness, regardless of how banal it was.

___________________________

Below is an example of one of Hallett's pieces that Fox legal told him they could not use. Pretty obvious why if you have seen the Giger original, which Fox has no rights to as it was done prior to Alien, not for Alien.

"A shameless re-jigging of a Giger original (below). This was done when early on in the production we thought we'd be legaly allowed to reference the master directly. Legal stepped in and informed us otherwise." - Dane Hallett Facebook

ali81

MemberNeomorphAug-01-2017 9:03 AM

I don't believe that fox own the works outright. I believe what usually happens is that fox will have negotiated with giger the sole production rights to his necromonicon iv catalogue but giger will have retained property rights of the catalogue. in actuality, giger would not be able to negotiate with other studios involving any works included within this catalogue. the original alien design is based off of his work and if fox want to use anything else directly or based off of these works within the catalogue, giger or his estate would have to be paid.  

Kethol

MemberChestbursterAug-01-2017 12:51 PM

Fox owns all rights to everything Giger created for the production of Alien. What we are talking about here are things Hatton and Hallett used that were not part of that, that Fox did NOT want to negotiate rights to, like the Giger copy that Hallett made shown above. That was based on a piece of Giger art than had nothing to do with Alien.

"Ridley had a very specific look he wanted and HGR's estate (rightfully) didn't want to suffer any plagiarism. But Plaguerism can be a bit of a blurry line in the art world, so we had to be super careful." - Dane Hallett Facebook

Below are a few other Giger copies that Hatton made for Covenant that he said Giger's estate would not approve.

ali81

MemberNeomorphAug-01-2017 12:55 PM

kethol, think wer saying the same thing but in 2 different ways

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