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Engineer Classes From Prometheus to Planet 4

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sherris

Jul-12-2017 4:03 AM

 Hi All !!

Ive been giving a lot of thought to the beings on Planet 4 and the potential links to other Engineer types we have seen.

So the first thing we noticed in Prometheus was the Elders looked different from the Engineers on 223 and the sacrificial Engineer again appeared different.

The beings on Planet 4 are different again. Their main difference is the eyes. All 3 Engineer types in Prometheus had black eyes. None of the beings on Planet 4 have the same eyes.

Now for this to work this difference has to be on purpose which I think it is.

The Elders - The Gods so far. These beings have the enhanced technology and these have "The Sacrificial Engineers" seed worlds.

Engineers 223 - The bio mech suits. Now I thought for a long time these were CREATIONS of The Elders for the purpose of making contact with seeded worlds so they can report back to The Elders letting them know if things were progressing as planned or if not they needed to cleanse the planet with the black goo.

Sacrificial Engineers - Again I thought CREATIONS of The Elders who were similar to the 223s genetically enhanced as the ultimate designer baby, have no sexual orientation as they have no need to reproduce. They were made to seed worlds as in the opening of Prometheus.

We could even say The Engineers 223 and Sacrificial Engineers are the same. IF the bio-mech on the Engineer 223 is a suit and not part of their body. I thought they were made with the suit part of the biology to protect when cleansing and using the Black goo. But who knows....

So that brings us to Planet 4 Engineers. I hated the thought this was their home world. My hopes were that it was the closest seeded Engineer planet to the Covenant mission so David could distract the Covenant. Or it was another world seeded like Prometheus intro.

Now E.Shaw said she "wanted to go where they came from"

The "They" are the Engineers 223.

Now what if they werent creations? But "chosen ones"?

Chosen ones from Planet 4 which contains the best of the best. The Elders favoured students. Those most loyal end up there. It is possibly an after life or promised land. It was hidden from scans for a reason. Maybe the Elders promised eternal life on Planet 4. 

AND maybe....

Every time a Planet was ready for seeding, the Elders chose the most worthy being from Planet 4 and genetically enhanced them. Gave them the ability to breathe on any atmosphere with a suit (bio-mech) virtually stopped their ageing process. Basically we might say "Treated as a king" but in their ideology not Earths materialistic world.

They get almost eternal life with the enhancements and when called upon they give the ultimate sacrifice to seed a world.

The enhancements cause the eyes to change color for better vision. The body becomes a muscle mass of perfection. Then their faces etched into the mountains of Planet 4.

This would mean the Sacrificial Engineers AND Engineers 223 are chosen ones from Planet 4 or "Paradise"  ?????

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

19 Responses to Engineer Classes From Prometheus to Planet 4

Gralen

Jul-12-2017 5:09 AM

The biggest inconsistency are the eyes.

I would not care much if the Engineers had slightly different body shapes but this detail makes it questionable if these beings on planet 4 are actually part of the Engineer species.

My idea would be that the species on planet 4 are the most successful experiment of the Engineers to be integrated into their society. They just need some more time to be fully integrated (like 200-300k years).

Leeta

Jul-12-2017 6:20 AM

I think because of their eyes they are mainly Engineer but with our DNA mixed in. I think some of their faces also had a more human appearance to them. So maybe they might of done some laboratory DNA mixing with human DNA, or took human females for creating children more to their liking....

Or perhaps certain 'castes' of their species already had more white in their eyes than other 'castes'. So, this may have been something that was already normal for them and not original to just humans. 

It's also possible because the scene was fast that Ridley simply thought no one notice any 'flaws' on the makeup of the actors. :)

sherris

Jul-12-2017 7:56 AM

I have to believe that in the Alien Franchise with all the millions that goes into making film in 2017 that the beings on Planet 4 look the way that they should.

So having more human eyes instead of the black eyes the Engineers from Prometheus had is something that was purposely done. Please no over sight.

If this is the case then there is a reason for this and that is one of my possible theories - the Enhancements were made which allow them to see more. Possibly things humans can not see - like in Prometheus the walls looked plain but with further investigation there was detail.

Maybe these enhanced eyes allow to see in the dark too. The Engineers 223 maybe  have the ability to breath on any atmosphere due to the changes. The neck part of the bio-suit look like gills - maybe for underwater too ? 

These beings need to visit baron wastelands prior to seeding or clean up after a re-start is commanded. It makes sense they can breath anywhere and see EVERYTHING without the limits of a typical human / humanoid eye. Another dimension

 

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

Kethol

Jul-12-2017 8:07 AM

@Leeta - Humans and Engineers have the same DNA, so they would not have to "mix" anything. The chromosomes in DNA can have slightly different instructions, which is why the Engineers clearly have biological differences from us even though they have the same DNA.

Since they are biological "engineers", I assumed the ones we see on LV-223 had been engineered for the specifics of their job -  such as the "bio mechanical suits" they wear and different eyes. The suits appear to be a part of their bodies - they blend into the flesh and the neck and wrists. The eyes may have been changed to see different wavelengths of light. We know from the scripts that they saw in different wavelengths.

The Engineers on the home world in Covenant are probably just the original, pure race.

Leeta

Jul-12-2017 8:07 AM

 These beings need to visit baron wastelands prior to seeding or clean up after a re-start is commanded. It makes sense they can breath anywhere and see EVERYTHING without the limits of a typical human / humanoid eye. Another dimension

 

I like this idea. It also made me remember of some photos during Prometheus of the Engineer walking outside among the wreckage after the crash without a helmet of any kind. 

 

IndyFront

Jul-12-2017 9:45 AM

Those last few paragraphs actually sound very similar to what Ridley Scott (or one of the writers of Prometheus) once said. About the chosen sacrifices living as kings for a year and then comitting themselves to be transformed via the accelerant/pathogen. Cool stuff I can't really disagree with any of it.

BigDave

Jul-12-2017 4:42 PM

"It's also possible because the scene was fast that Ridley simply thought no one notice any 'flaws' on the makeup of the actors. :)"

Maybe... its not the first Oversight RS has given us and i dont think it would be the last... and so indeed and when we consider the Budget which with Inflation was about  ONE 3RD less than Prometheus it really shows where a extra $50M would have helped and so maybe the Engineer Scene on such a large Scale would have taken a lot of Budget and so a Cheaper Make-up job was done and the screen time so small that we are not supposed to notice?

But then RS had mentioned, and maybe this is due to noticing the differences? or if its his intention from the start who knows...  (i do think it was due to what the Source i had informed me about 2.5 years ago).

Ridley Scott had said the Engineers are NOT A RACE.... they are a Civilization he also said to the effect that while there are many versions of Humans, and there may be many more, that the Engineers do share a Genetic Connection so why cant there be many versions of them.

So if we go with this then its interesting as we have a Multi-layered Order of Creation and Evolution, which means these beings on Paradise could be Evolution's or they could be earlier versions, now RS had called them Original Engineers

And yet the Head Statues are the Hierarchy, Superior Beings, Wise Men and Apostles and so these beings in the Cathedral  most likely Predate those beings on Paradise and also they looked more like Engineers.

The beings on Paradise looked different, they seemed to have a more varied appearance, but then if we take some versions/races of Humans on Earth, even ones like Africans, Asians or Middle Eastern... while they do not look as diverse feature wise as some other races of Humans.. They still do not look all identical.

And so some of these beings for that reason could have more traditional Engineer features, while others do not have so predominant ones, they also vary in Height a bit.  But so do Humans.

They do however lack the Marble like Looks of the Prometheus Engineers, and those Eyes, but again is this a Oversight?  Who knows.

So we can speculate if these beings on Paradise are a mixed Race, where different versions of Humanoids have interbred to give us a more diverse Civilization.

The Prometheus Engineers could be older versions, they could be the ones whom these beings on Paradise share their Origins from... much like Mankind does.

Or these Prometheus Engineers could be a Faction that have Genetically tried to play GOD and Evolved themselves.

So this Topic is one that is HUGE and one that i hope we see covered and not brushed under the Carpet.   We see these beings have Females... and so we have to ask.. WHY CREATE us?  Or WHY we are created in the first place.

Jon Spaights idea, and he was the one to work on the very first ideas regarding these Engineers, are they was a Race very Ancient who at one time could Procreate but overtime had Evolved and Engineered themselves to the point they lost this ability and then had to come up with other ways to Create.

So its all very open, the Elders in Prometheus looked like Older versions of the Sacrificial and LV-223 Engineers, but these were removed from the Movie and RS did not want to Meet GOD in the first movie.

So the Look of the Elders in Prometheus, can not be taken as the way they intend the Elders to Look now...

so the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 ones could indeed be either a Genetically Engineered Super Humanoids... or they could be used to Create those beings on Paradise.

its all very open and has multiple layers and is a fantastic thing to cover and one i hope they decide to cover in future as we have seen enough Xenomorphs and do not need no Ripley back;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-12-2017 4:46 PM

I am going to throw a BIG BONE.. here to Chew on ;)

We maybe cant consider these Canon.... but unless its the TWO different Concept Artiest letting their interpretation and imagination running wild, to give us these Humanoids...  We have to then ask that at some point this Design was maybe discussed with them prior to them creating the Concept Work.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

K-Theory

Jul-12-2017 5:27 PM

CONSIDER HEIGHT DISCREPANCIES: 

BigDave

Jul-12-2017 6:08 PM

I have lined them up and clearly the Engineer is taller, but then Billy Crudup is not that Tall, doing a calculation based on this shot then i worked out the Engineer is about 6ft 3 maybe 6ft 4" Tall.

But then Billy Crudup is standing a bit closer and so we cant be 100% accurate, someone did post a image of this Prop Engineer being worked on which i had estimated to about 7ft to 7ft 3" but then thats with out me knowing those in the Room working on the Props as far as their Height and then also discrepancies as far as how far away is the Prop to them.

But indeed some shots the Dead Engineers appear to only be a bit taller than Humans, and some of them seem Taller, from what i have studied it appears they vary from about 6ft to 7ft mark.

The Dead Bodies that is... The Actual Actors playing Engineers do seem to have a more varied height difference, between about 5ft 6" and 6ft 6" but then we do not know how tall the Engineers are intended.. and so the smaller Actors could be playing a 6.5ft Engineers which means the taller ones would be about 7ft 8"

So its hard to guess really, we can however confirm the Prometheus Engineers are 7.5" without the Space Jockey Suits because the Crossing Video clearly shows a Limit to Height of anyone fitting within the Cryo-Pod would be 7.5ft Maximum.  I will assume those Engineers are thus 7ft to 7.5ft Tall

But again it could be a Oversight by RS and Production as far as the Cryo-Pod Sizes in relation to how Tall the Engineers are.  Lindeloff had said the Prometheus Engineers are supposed to be 9-10ft tall.... his earlier drafts they was intended to be 12ft and Spaights Drafts 15ft.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

sherris

Jul-13-2017 2:18 AM

As i said above it is astonishing to think that such an important detail is an oversight. However there has been previous evidence of inconsistencies in the Franchise so it is possible.

I am still thinking that the "Engineer" slaughter in A:C shows the beings to be different.

Skin Colour - The Engineers223/Sacrificial seem to have different skin tone to beings on Planet 4 too.

The Hammerpede - That seemed to be the same colour as The Engineers 223/Sacrificial and so if these beings have been enhanced or created then for me that points to the Black Goo having something to do with the process.

There are other colours with relevance also. Take the green goo David touches between his fingers in Prometheus. Now that looks like the same green colour that is woven into the Jugganaut controls like an energy source. This same colour is present at the Alter too, where the Urn was replaced by a "Green Stone"  It is the one Holloway examines in Prometheus.

Any thoughts ????

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

BigDave

Jul-13-2017 8:33 AM

I think its open for debate... its either a oversight.

Or there is a reason for the differences, and Ridley Scotts comments could suggest that indeed as these are Humanoids they could all appear different.

But the differences are still quite a bit, and so the only way to explain them would be that the LV-223 and Sacrificial Engineers, Evolved on a different World/Environment that would account for the different eyes, and skin tone.

Or they are Engineered to have such Advancements..

Or those beings on Paradise are the result of the Engineers Seeding. Well they come from the Engineers.

As for the Green Stuff i think the slime, may indeed have some importance as far as Technology.   How it connects to the Crystal if it connects at all who knows.

I will have to recap what the Source i had claimed about the Engineers in Late February 2015 to me, as it does seem to give a  lot of insight into these subjects... they are just as vague with clues as Ridley Scott is though, and as AC is a Re-write of the Paglen/Green Drafts which the Source said their information is from... i cant be sure if they are even remotely correct... as the only way to find out would be if a Paglen/Green Draft comes to light.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

sherris

Jul-13-2017 9:20 AM

BD - 

I would be interested in anything you have around this when you have time. It is still something I am interested in even after A:C. 

As long as we have the hope of an Engineer return I will be searching for something that leads to more as this is something i have still so much interest in.

Perhaps it would not be any fun if A:C answered our cravings and given us some gold....

No. I still want to know. A:A is fine. I dont need it all, just as much as you can fit  in to 123 mins film plz RS ;)

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

K-Theory

Jul-13-2017 1:19 PM

BigDave, thanks for correcting me. 

However, one thing which I recall reading about in university was the fact that living things cannot travel in space at FTL. Something would happen to their bodies at that speed. Therefore synthetics are needed. If RS really REALLY wanted the people in AC to be the Engineers, then I would assume the suited one we saw in Prometheus was simply an analogue to andriods, albeit much more complex and closer to the real thing. 

K-Theory

Jul-13-2017 1:19 PM

BigDave, thanks for correcting me. 

However, one thing which I recall reading about in university was the fact that living things cannot travel in space at FTL. Something would happen to their bodies at that speed. Therefore synthetics are needed. If RS really REALLY wanted the people in AC to be the Engineers, then I would assume the suited one we saw in Prometheus was simply an analogue to androids, albeit much more complex and closer to the real thing. 

BigDave

Jul-13-2017 4:20 PM

Yeah no worries ;)

I think going faster than Speed of Light holds a lot of Questions as to how can a human withstand that if we do manage to break the Speed Barrier....     I think as you get closer to the Speed of Light then Time for those traveling at this speed greatly slows down.

Who knows how the Engineers ships work, maybe they imply another trick like the Punch a Hole in Space/Bending Space (Warping Space) Theory or Created a Worm Hole etc.

@Sherris

The Source had hinted which is all they do, well they give clues and statements and not Spoon Fed Answers. So here are the ones regarding the Engineers, or connecting and i will try and put as many as i can... if i miss some and remember i will add them after.

*The Engineers are not Gods, and they answer to a higher power.

*The movie is about multiple layers of creation/sub creation which does not Start with the Engineers and does not end with David.

*There is a Hierarchy above the Engineers, but the way they mention it its as if there could even be more levels of Hierarchy above the Engineers Creators

*The Engineers have more in common with David than they do with Mankind.

*The Engineers are not really creators as such, but they are Genetically connected to Mankind and so they share our DNA and Predate us... as in Modern Mankind.

*Mankind as of now is like 4th/5th Generation of Mankind, and we did not evolve from Apes, but Engineers DNA is in our roots.

*The Engineers serve a higher purpose and Agenda, one which is very sinister and dark and is a even further step away from how Dr Shaw would have envisioned meeting our makers.  so what she found out in Prometheus that differs from what her beliefs are... is shown to be even further than what she found in Prometheus.

*They will meet some beings related to the Engineers.

*The Theme is about Forbidden Knowledge that is not intended for some and when gained/used can lead to down fall. 

*The Sacrificial Goo is in effect the Prometheus Fire, and Fruit from the Forbidden Tree and playing with Fire can get you burnt.

*The Hierarchy have Terra-forming Technology that can affect the climate of Worlds, they can affect not only Weather, but Seismic Activity and can turn worlds into habitable or even UN-habitble and this Technology is what caused the Many Great Disasters. (Great Flood) and can cause Ice Ages etc.

*The themes from Paradise Lost will loosely play in regards to what role the Engineers play, but its loosely but in context to Paradise Lost.  The Punishment that some of the Fallen Angels had suffered (Turned to Serpents) allowed the Engineers freedom from Bondage.

*The Agenda/Plot for Prometheus 2 is similar to that of The Matrix.

*The Engineers and Hierarchy connections will loosely tie with Religion and Mythos, but not too literally and it covers loosely many Mythos, including not only Biblical, and Greek but Egyptian, Sumerian and others. its a combination of a number of them.

*Biblical Events had actually happened in the past such as attempts to destroy Mankind/Wipe the Slate Clean but not directly connected to our Generation of Humanity.

*Paradise is loosely connected to the Biblical One, as the Cradle of Creation but while Biblical and other Mythos themes are connected they do not have to apply directly to Earth.  Such as how Paradise is not a place on Earth but a separate World.

*Paradise is not the Engineers Home-world, it is the Cradle of Humanity Creation and it is considered a Headquarters of the Hierarchy local to our are of the Galaxy but is not where THEY came from.

*Mankind plays a bigger role in the Xenomorph than the Engineers.

*The Hierarchy have created many Humanoids and the Engineers are not the only ones.

*The Sacrificial Goo is a Powerful tool, that is kind of Everything than how basic it was in Prometheus.  This Tool is intended for Benevolent reasons but like Nuclear Power can be used for Energy and can also be used as a Great Weapon.. so can the Forbidden Fruit/Fire in the wrong and unauthorized hands.

*Paradise is a World that looks like the Klingon Home-world from Space, it is 3X Larger than Earth and has 7 Moons, but they said some concepts it had 3.  Paradise is a Jungle/Forest kind of World.

*Paradise has Architecture that is more a combination of Ancient Sumerian/Babylonian and Egyptian but it also has some elements of Ancient Israel.

*There is a shot which looks like the Valley of Kings, and Luxor Temple where there is a Path that has by the side of it Pillars with Statues of Humanoids upon it, some look Engineer, some look different and some even dont look Humanoid.

*At the end of this path there is like Orchard but at the end of the path and in front of this Orchard there is a Black Obelisk that neither looks Rock or Metal, and it is growing out of the Ground and has Roots... it has a Green Glow at its Center

*This is the Source of their Power and is in effect the Tree of Life and Knowledge.

*The LV-223 Engineers had stolen a Shard of this Obelisk.

Thats it off my head... but my head does not work so well no more lol... i will have to take a look at my Older Posts from 2.5 years ago and see  what parts i missed.

There was further clues linking what may happened to the LV-223 Engineers, but its vague as they keep referring to the Prometheus Punishment at play, but also more so playing with Fire gets you Burnt.  And so a lot of Hubris which we ultimately see is the consequence of Weylands Agenda too.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

sherris

Jul-14-2017 1:52 AM

Hey BigDave !!

Thanks for taking the time out for that. It is a great list and it had so many connections with Prometheus and with what ended up being A:C  (rather than P2).

The green shard in the Obelisk reminds me of Jon.S A:E script. Also the mention of it being a loose link to "The Forbidden Fruit" or knowledge which when gained leads to their downfall seems to fit in rather well too.

Even Mankind being closer to the Xeno than the Engineers. We could say that is down to David. Even if it is only a refined version this still can fit.

The Engineers are closer to David than mankind could suggest that my opening theory on here where the "Engineers 223 / Sacrificial" are CREATIONS of The Elders or of The Hierarchy above them. This would mean that "The Elders" are nothing but CREATIONS themselves. Which again leans towards the multi-layers of the creation theme.

The Goo is a powerful tool for everything - Now considering the debates on how the goo works and what some called inconsistencies, this could explain it all away. 

The source mentions that there may of been statues of Engineers, those who look LIKE Engineers and some non humanoid looking statues. You never know maybe when the BR drops we can examine the screen further and we could look for such statues. I think it is very possible we could find something? 

Im not saying your source is 100% but it looks like a very credible source with insight on some level. Then we consider the changes which are made after the fact.

Either way it is a great list and something i will be examining further later !!

Thanks ;)

 

 

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

BigDave

Jul-14-2017 7:34 AM

Well this source had mentioned over 2.5 years ago about the next movie will have TWO Monsters, both related to the Xenomorph but different, and one with Transparent Skin to a degree.  They also implied more than One David. 

And that Dr Shaw plays a Small but important Role and Technically would not be dead.....     They also said Concept work showed a Human Figure connected to a Bio-Mechanical Machine of Sorts  and that it looked like a HR Giger Take on the Superman 3 Robot Girl Scene....   Low and behold 2.5 years latter and Concept works match this.

Regarding the Xenomorph..... it was vague but they said that in order to RE-CREATE it all you needed was the Tools and Knowledge and David has both, now is this the Deacon? or Xenomorph?

They claimed that we will not see any Xenomorphs but clues would be there to show us how the Xenomorphs came to be, and the TWO Monsters... One is a Creation by David, and so the other is either a past event or from something David did not directly have his hands in...   Now its Ambiguous because the Sources way they put this was..  there are TWO Monsters, both related to the Xenomorph, both different and one David has a direct role in its creation.

One Monster is like the Ultramorph/Necronom 4 and the other is a Fresh Take on the Original Designs... now the Original Design was Necronom 4, so how can it be two of these, but they could have refereed to HR Gigers other designs for Alien.

They did say and they are ambiguous so only gave jigsaw pieces, that One Monster will have Translucent Pale Skin, the other would be more closer to the Traditional,  One Monster has the Xenomorph Pipe/Tubes and the other has Spikes, One Monster has a more Elongated Head compared to the Xenomorph and the other has a more Bulbous Head, One Monster will have similar jaw features to the Xenomorph and the other would be different.

They also mentioned that with regards to Paradise Lost, that without SIN there would be no Xenomorph... now is this Sin as in to go against the Will/Wishes of God and then resulting Punishment?  Or SIN as in Satans Daughter who was punished to constantly being in Labor giving Birth to the Hounds of Hell who daily are Born and Rip at her Entrails (similar to Prometheus Punishment) .. now SIN is depicted as Half Human and Half Serpent.

The source does seem to indicate the Prometheus Punishment is connected.

I cant figure out if they mean some Engineers were Punished with a Parasite or Similar Organism....   of if their Punishment is from Hubris of using Forbidden Knowledge or Stolen Knowledge.

It appears they hint the Green Crystal in Prometheus was Stolen from Paradise from the Obelisk which is where the Sacrificial Goo comes from and these Engineers who Stole it and used it against the wishes of those who created it or in a way not intended... Eventually become infected with some mishap.

Now the Source did mention the LV-223 Outbreak being similar to the Movie the FLY.... where a Benevolent Experiment can lead to disastrous Results.

This was the Fly getting into the Teleporter with the Human to make a Hybrid... now the only way this connects to LV-223 would be that something had contaminated the Sacrificial Goo, something had been in contact with it and its DNA then leads to a Hybrid.

They did prior to AC, well October 2016 spill some more beans regarding the Xeno Origin as a Parasitic Life Form which i can explain if you wish.

But indeed from the clues they give .. which they never gave direct answers only clues, it leads to me to think the Engineers took it upon themselves to Engineer themselves to the point of losing the ability to Procreate and had to then Clone themselves and Produce Genetically Modified Clones for a Purpose and so in effect the LV-223 Engineers are just Bio-Logical David 8's

They also seemed to point me in the direction that something happens to Dr Shaw where she is connected to something and used for her Eggs to create Hybrids that lead to Organisms similar to the Xenomorph.  Maybe even eventually becoming some kind of Hybrid.

Its funny enough some of the Concept team and done designs showing a more hybrid Dr Shaw... so these may had been ideas that was then abandoned.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

sherris

Jul-14-2017 12:12 PM

That was sure some cool source !!

There are far too many consistencies for it to be unreliable. Whoever it was shared some very trusted information with you. I have to take it all on board. Indeed if you do have the Xeno explanations I would love to read them when you have time.

The creations theme lead me to believe the Engineers were themselves a creation. I thought that the way the Engineer looks at David before ripping of his head was a major clue. The look he gives him, to me looks like symphathy and empathy. As if to say "I know I know how it is" then rips his head off.

Also my thoughts were that a factor of these creations grew tired of endless space travel and checking on planets for the elders. It maybe got to a point where these creations grew tired of giving their lives in order of creation and so a stand off or war began. It was these Engineers on LV223 who were a part of that.

This also fits with what you were told and about the Fallen Angels and stolen Green Shard. It could be these Engineers who were responsible ????

Im having a further look over these later as so much seems to be posed with these findings.

Thanks

 

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

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