David killing engineers. Didn't get it.
Posted Jul-09-2017 6:26 PM
Hi. I didn't understand at all the killing David did with that people (engineers?).
Didn't in Prometheus movie the engineers already gone? Is that the same planet? Why in the first movie the crew didn't find the engineers or citadel? As far as I remember the engineers in the first movie are long gone.
Didn't get that. Can some one explain it to me.
Posted Jul-09-2017 10:58 PM
man created david. engineers created man. david sees himself as perfect and the engineers/ man imperfect. he is the future and that as he is perfect, only his creations matter. plus an engineer ripped his head off so its pure revenge baby. but I don't buy into the idea the engineers r gone. it would be logical to assume that. being an ancient race and capable of long distance space travel, they have spread and colonized many worlds. as RS has said, the engineers will return to find out what happened on paradise and will probably be very, very pissed
Posted Jul-10-2017 5:21 AM
There are multiple reasons at play....
But first of all the Planets/Worlds are different, Prometheus takes place on a Moon LV-223 where the Engineers had set up some kind of Outpost that at some point in time they had used to experiment on and create the Black Goo. Most of these Engineers had died from a Outbreak about 2000 years ago... We dont know 100% if any escaped and left the surface at this time or not.
The Engineer in Prometheus at some point (likely deleted scenes) had informed David that he (Engineer) did not come from this place (LV-223) but a place we would call Paradise. Dr Shaw wanted David to take her to where the Engineer told him he was from... and so we have to assume the Planet in Alien: Covenant is Paradise and is where the Engineers had come from... but when we say come from, it could be as much as a African American saying he comes from the USA or a European American.... when actually African Americans originated from Africa and others from Europe.
So the Engineers may not originate from that Planet in Alien Covenant.
As far as Davids reasons..... he was created by Mankind, by Peter Weyland and created to be a Tool to serve his creator, his creation is what his creator had thought makes him (Weyland) like a GOD... Yet David sees that he is superior to Mankind in every way... apart from he does not have a Soul, while Mankind can create Androids in their own image, they are not GODs because Mankind are Mortal... yet David is somewhat Immortal.
David then discovers Mankinds creators in Prometheus and he sees that they are too, flawed and Mortal and so David does not see them as superior... they are only superior by virtue of the Advancements and Technology.
David has contempt for Mankind, especially how he felt treated by Humans and seen as just a Robot... when David is more advanced than Humans and he has started to get more Human Emotions and does not see himself as a Tool, a Servant for Mankind... with Weyland Dead... David is free.
From his upbringing he has noticed how Weyland sees himself as some kind of GOD because he created David, and David sees these Engineers was worshiped as Gods because they created Mankind... yet all of those Humanoids are Mortal and David would see himself as superior.
So David has got himself a Godlike Complex, he is interesting in what made these Engineers to Godlike... their Technology, and David knows that with their Technology he could become his own GOD.
So arriving a Planet of these Engineers, and knowing how they viewed Mankind and how he was treated too, David could not risk going down and welcoming those beings.. there is a chance they could see him as a threat and disable him again.
For David it is not important about meeting these beings, he already knows a bit about them, and he knows if he KILLED them off then they would pose no a THREAT to his existence and Dr Shaw (who David Loved). David knew that if those Engineers/Beings was killed off that David could then go down and be able to gather information on their Technology, Culture as he from the ruins of the Bombardment David could still read all their Information they had. Maybe he could get Shaw some Answers this way.
David views himself as Superior to Humanoids, both Mankind and Engineers and he sees them as a failed species, flawed, and imperfect and David has seen how the Engineers treat their creations with no care and how Mankind likewise does with its creations and so David does not see how they have a right to Survive.
David seeing himself as Superior he wishes to leave his own Legacy, he views himself more than a Robot and Tool but as his own individual Person... and so he wants to Survive and then become more powerful.... And the Engineers Technology would allow this... but those Engineers could pose a threat to Davids Agenda and how he wishes to LIVE and not end up in TWO Parts again.
so he chose to take them out for these reasons.
Thats how i interpret it all.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Posted Jul-10-2017 5:27 AM
I also agree the Engineers are not gone... well their Hierarchy is certainly not gone.
Paradise is just a world important to them as far as Humanoid Genetic Crop goes, the Engineers Technology shows us they have like Sat Navs that show other Galaxies and so traveling beyond our Galaxy must be within their Power.... and so some 2 years to LV-223 and some 7-9 years to Paradise means the TWO places we see Engineers in the Prequels are within a close Radius to Earth... which is maybe a bit of a Coincidence for a Race who can travel across Galaxies where the distances to Paradise and LV-223 are well like Inches to us then.
Ridley Scott also confirmed that Earth is not the only place these beings have created life, so there are many Worlds they have seeded and evolved life upon.
And so i think the Engineers or some race related to them would surely not have Paradise as their Home-world.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Posted Jul-10-2017 6:28 AM
Planet 4 (Paradise) is an outpost.
It's obvious, judging that there was only one big town on the surface and no orbital structures.
Another thing is: These beings seem to live on a recreation planet considering which clothes they wear and that they manually grow crops for making bread,beer.
I mean this place would be the ideal location for meeting humans in a friendly way to share their history.
This planet is without a doubt in some kind a giant monastery where these beings live a traditional way, outside of their usual super-advanced-high-tech environment.
I bet when the Engineers come back and see their lovely planet contaminated on a global scale they will pull off their big machinery and some not yet-explored weird super-high-tech bio-engineered weaponary.
Posted Jul-10-2017 6:36 AM
@Gralen Indeed ;)
I made this reply in another thread. I think it can add up to what we was being shown.
PARADISE for the most part is a Special Place reserved for only the Loyal/Chosen and Deserved, many cultures its seen as the After-life, where only those who Live a Certain way who keep to all of the GODS wishes and rules will eventually be allowed entry... In some Cultures its where only those who Die in Battle are allowed to enter, or those who Died in the name of GOD.
This Could apply ^^^ if we look at those beings on Paradise as Humanoid, and maybe a intermix of other Creations that came from the Engineers DNA... But unlike Humans on Earth these beings had kept to ways of the Engineers, they had not became Fallen and Against GOD like we on Earth had... And so they are not Forsaken/Abandoned like Mankind. They are instead allowed entrance to Paradise and then further Engineered or inter-breeded with to become more closer to the Engineers.
The other context for PARADISE is the Biblical one which Miltons Paradise Lost Poem is based on... In both of these.
PARADISE is NOT where GOD comes from.
PARADISE is NOT where the ANGELS come from.
PARADISE is WHERE the Garden of Eden is.
PARADISE is WHERE the Cradle of Civilization began.
PARADISE is WATCHED Over by Cherubim Angels.
If we look at Paradise in both these Contexts then i think it makes a bit more sense to what we are actually seeing.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Posted Jul-10-2017 6:50 AM
Well spoken you guys! Engineers make us and a super weapon of amazing power. Like is our biggest hydrogen bomb more dangerous, I don't think so but our whole arsenal could destroy a planet. We also create David but I just don't see him as that dangerous because a good m40 pulse rifle would annihilate him. But he is on the loose so I can see some parallels with either bad angels/biosuit military engees. I definitely would like a follow up I just have no faith in Ridley to tell a decent story with believable characters. Give somebody else a try, jesus
Posted Jul-10-2017 12:13 PM
I think that David is stupid and flawed. He think that he is immortal but immortal just mean than he doesn't age and/or can't get ill not that he can't be destroyed. The Engineers have very long life and are perhaps even immortal. The fact that they can be destroyed or killed doesn't mean that they are not immortal. They just are not Eternal.
If he is so superior what does he need their tech to wipe out the beings on Planet 4 ? He should have built his own technology, his own ship more advanced than the Juggernaut and use it to wipe out both humans and Engineers.
If he is so superior what does he need Black goo to create or more likely stimulate the appareance of new species ? He should have created new species from raw inorganic material to prove that he is truly a god.
Moreover his definition of perfection is flawed to say the least. In the great order of things, humans are more perfect than xenomorph and are clearly superior to them as they are sentient with the ability to create things. The Xenomorph, moreover as a creation from David, are mere killing machines with nothing essential to bring in the great order of things. However it will be a pleasure to see them do something very useful by turning against their flawed creator and wipe him out.
Posted Jul-10-2017 1:42 PM
Thanks for the replies. I understand now. Is just that both planet 4 and moon lv-223 look alike. Both have storms, communication interference problems... etc....
But why David didn't take that half ring ship and traveled to earth and released the alien spore?
The other civilized alien would be the Predator? lol
Posted Jul-10-2017 10:52 PM
timiteh, it really depends on ur definition of the term immortal. my understanding, and an explination I would accept, is a being that will not die of old age or illness, which would basically be any natural means. I wouldn't include man made devices such as pulse rifles, as I don't think they had them when life was created. tho, if u take immortal as simply cannot die by any means then no, david is not immortal, but id say for arguments sake, by definition, he is considered immortal
Posted Jul-11-2017 3:23 AM
ali81, yes he is immortal to a certain point just like the Engineers are immortal to a certain point as i doubt that he can live as long as them. He is disapointed by the Engineers because they can get killed and consider himself superior to them as if he can't get killed. However the mere fact that the Engineer beheaded him with ease is a proof that he can get killed and/or destroyed. Thus he is not superior to the Engineer on this aspect. Moreover he needs both human and Engineer made technology to reach his goal. Thus he can barely be considered superior to human, and he can't be considered superior to Engineers. He has an inflated ego which blind him to some very basic truths. What is ironic, is that Walter which lack human emotions and feelings can clearly see how flawed he is when him which is suppodedly superior can't even acknowledge his flaws and the flaws of his logic.
Posted Jul-11-2017 9:12 AM
I think its Davids Flawed Logic that he believes he is superior.
David is Smarter, Faster and Stronger than a Human, David will be able to live a Vast amount of time provided he is maintained, he will never grow old. He will never Die (of Natural Causes).
When David finds Mankinds Creators, he realizes they are not Immortal or very God like the only Advancements that have is they have achieved a way to make themselves Life for Longer than Humans and be immune to many of of illnesses, with the Genetic Advancements Mankind has been making who knows how FAR we would come in say 1000's of years, i think there is a good chance we would be free from Cancer, and other Organ Problems... we would surely be able to Live for Longer... and even Be IMMORTAL if we master what Science did in the Movie THE 6TH DAY where we can keep Clones of ourselves and just upload our Mind/Soul into New Bodies when our current one has failed.
So David finds out these Engineers are Far from GOD's and they only have their Advanced Technology and Advanced Genetics (longer life, Strength and Speed) that separates them over Mankind.
The Engineers had failed to contain the experiments they was conducting, and so we could see a Army of 200 Androids would be able to use and not suffer as serve consequences with the Engineers Experiments and Technology as the Engineers had done.
We dont know yet if the Engineers had even created this Technology or in part had Stolen/Found it.
The Biggest Advantage a Engineer has over David is simply Brute Strength, the LV-223 Engineers at least are way more powerful than David, and even a Predator too.
But in a Possible Scenario like Terminator.. if say the World had been over taken by Androids i am sure they could create more Advanced Ships than Humans, and build more Advanced Machines/ Mech suits or Larger Robots that would be a Match for the Engineers in Hand-to-hand combat.
If Androids overtook Earth and then all our outposts and Enslaved Mankind, i am sure in 500 years after the events of Alien Covenant, that the AI/Androids would have very much more Advanced Technology and Weapons than Mankind could create.
And then also we have to consider these Androids can use and control the Engineers Technology and use that against them.
So while David is using Human Technology and Engineer Technology it appears he is able to use and experiment with these to greater levels than the creators of this Technology.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Posted Jul-11-2017 11:29 AM
Well, i am not too sure that David is smarter than a human in every way. He is able to process data faster, has almost flawless memory,assuming he doesn't distort it,to remember what he want to remember but he doesn't seem able to create something as advanced as himself. Or at least his flawed logic make him unable to understand that a more advanced version of himself would be a more impressive and interesting achievement than his so called perfect organism. Weyland has correctly acknowledged that he needs a being like David, more advanced in some keys points, to help him with his work.
Regarding Engineers, sure they made mistakes and some of these mistakes are hard to believe from a supposedly advanced race, but i think that they are superior to David in any single way besides being vulnerable to Black goo because of their organic nature.
The mere fact that they are physically way more powerful than him, and from his fight with walter we can acknowledge that he is quite powerful, despite being living being is a tribute to their genetic engineering capabilities. And i don't think that they have only enhanced their brute force and durability. They have certainly enhanced their cognitive capabilities as well. It is even possible that they can process data faster than David and outsmart him in possibly any way. According to me,the only thing that has enabled David to apparently go further than them in his experiments, is his invulnerability to black goo. And even with that what he has achieved is relatively limited. Moreover we don't know enough of them, to even be sure that they have not gone much further than David. We still do not know what wipe them out on LV 223. Whatever it is, it is certainly way more dangerous and powerful than either Xenomorph or Neomorph.
I have a hard time to believe that David expect his Xenomorph to be an efficient weapon against mankind, the way they are. Their spreading method is way more inefficient than the neomorph spores and from what we see in the movie they are incredibly easy to kill. As a matter of fact Daniels seem more pissed off than frightened by the Xenomorph.I think that correctly used black goo is close to the perfect weapon to wipe out animal life on a planet. And i doubt that David could create something as advanced and as efficient as Black goo.
Posted Jul-11-2017 11:58 AM
David sees the Xenomorph as a "perfect organism" because its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. He admires its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality. The Xenomorph doesn't waste it's time contemplating life or who his creators are but surviving. To create, one must first destroy. It is a beautiful creature too. Now whether or not the spore is more effective then facehuggers is up to debate but the Neomorph is clearly the inferior species, there even was a deleted scene where the Xeno was gonna destroy it in a battle. I believe the Facehugger produces a stronger product as oppose to the weaker spores because it's more concentrated. The Xeno we saw in Covenant isn't perfected yet, as David was even disappointed with it. I feel like Timiteh just does not like David so I won't argue but this is how I see it. David was built to be a perfect being (he can process things faster, has eidetic memory, super-human strength) but because he hasn't had maintenance he is slowly becoming more flawed as pointed out by Walter but David doesn't acknowledge it of course because he has become obsessed and mad. He expresses disdain towards the Engineers because they were not what they were hyped to be by the their human products and they have fallen on LV-223 and now Planet 4. He even made better what the Engineers did with their Deacons/Ultramorphs/whatever the precursor to the Xeno was. I'm excited to see how David progresses with his work in the next installment. I like that the bad guy won.
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."
Posted Jul-11-2017 1:06 PM
IT IS IMPLIED THAT THE FOLKS ON PARADISE ARE CREATED!
Note what Scott said recently: "There will be three or four different players coming in to investigate. One of which will be the Engineers arriving back to find their planet decimated. I think those ships come and go on regular intervals. I see them as the gardeners of space."
Connect the dots between the last two sentences. Connect them!
David was "marooned on [Paradise] for these many years." And why? Well, because it was scant of highly advanced technology! Perhaps the only device that was somewhat impressive was the sensor that turned on the lights when one entered a room.
Consider for one that the Engineers have the ability to build spacecraft that are HOMOGENOUSLY structured (else how could the Juggernaut survive that crash landing)? This for one means that they have highly complex software systems that, for lack of better words, allow them to "grow" technology rather than manufacture it industrially like us (i.e., this part goes with this, and these parts go with these, etc.).
Then we have the fact the Engineers have GALAXIES (consisting possibly of trillions of stars and exponentially more planets) mapped out.
Finally, it is arguable that they are the damn creators of the black goo, allowing them to play God and seed worlds. How much more complex can a society yet?
Yet Paradise is an absolutely primitive society with CRUMBLING stone structures and people still farming for WHEAT!
THEREFORE, the only conclusion is that these are NOT the Engineers. As BigDave has been repeating himself over hundreds of times, those are NOT the damn Engineers. There is a hierarchy to this whole ordeal. It is the equivalent of calling chimpanzees humans (or humans Engineers). They are related to us, yes, but they are not us!
OF COURSE, there is the counter argument. If an alien civilization goes to Nairobi or some monastery in Tibet and judges the state of our society from that, it would be quite wrong. However, within the context of the film and the religous metaphor and what little Scott has said, I think it is safe to assume that these are not the Engineers.
Well, why did David do what he did? "Sometimes, to create, one must first destroy," David himself said in Prometheus.
Posted Jul-11-2017 1:38 PM
Lawrence of Arabia, Yes i don't like David as he is never likable nor relatable. He is a flawed creation built by an extremly arrogant man who failed to put the appropriate safeguards inside his creation to prevent that he become a threat for human race. Moreover if he needs outside maintenance to said healthy and functionnal than he is neither perfect nor immortal !
In fact i like Walter thus i can't like David !
Even the Xenomorph from Alien is far from a perfect organism as there are scifi species which are better survivor than this species. Calvin from the movie Life for example, is a better survivor than Xenomorph and is even smarter and apparently way harder to kill.
Posted Jul-16-2017 4:21 AM
The AVPGalaxy had a podcast about Alien Covenant where someone said something interesting. They said that AC reduced what was good about David by making him simply hating humanity for no reason. I don’t totally agree with them but I preferred David in Prometheus because he was sort of in a gray zone, we weren’t sure where we had him so to speak.
Timiteh: Maybe David is flawed because mankind created him and mankind is flawed. This is an explanation which I think makes sense.
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