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David Did Not Create the Xenomorph

David Did Not Create the Xenomorph

chli

Jul-01-2017 3:56 AM

As for myself, I could not put up with the idea that David created the xenomorph. To me, the spacejockey and the eggs on LV-426 were thousands of years old (the spacejockey being fossilised). To me, the logical scenario would be that what happened on LV-426 coincided with the outbreak on LV-223 (the spacejockey leaving LV-223 with the deadly cargo but himself falling prey to it).

Luckily, Foster gives us this opening in his novelization as he clearly states that David didn't create the xenomorph. He's just dabbling in biology in order to have something to do in his Robinson Crusoe situation. Tragically, he abuses Shaw to create life (children) which, being a synthetic, he cannot create himself. This is his only way. He thinks that he loves her but doesn't really understand (or feel) that concept (He discusses this with Walter).

In the novelisation, David shows Oram his laboratory. He tells him about what he’s been doing the last 10 years. Apart from exterminating the engineers on the planet, the mutagen eradicated all life - except plant life. David has learnt that this is also the purpose - "To create one must first destroy". So, in his dabbling in creation, David uses what he can on the planet, insects, birds, animals of different kinds - and Shaw.

What he lacks, though, in order to create the perfect being, is living specimens of humanoids. So, a distress signal is sent and eventually, The Covenant makes an entrance with perfect specimens - Oram for example. As David shows Oram his laboratory, he shows him a petrified egg. In it, there is a dead facehugger. David tells Oram that this has been perfected by the engineers through millennia of experimentation (thus the mural). He wants to recreate it!

But, how to make the connection to the original Alien movie? David gives the information to WY, Ash and Mother about the existence of these creatures. David and everything else (the facilities on LV-223, the colonisation on Origae-6 etc) are destroyed.

But, about 2000 years ago, a juggernaut hastily left LV-223 with a deadly cargo - even too deadly for the pilot . . .

44 Responses to David Did Not Create the Xenomorph

Michelle Johnston

Jul-01-2017 10:02 AM

On the AVP podcast Alan is asked the question by Aaron and Alan's response is that he is aiming to create ambiguity it could be David it could be the Engineers. I actually read it as David dissembling to Oram to make him comfortable with an active Egg. Alan Dean Foster wrote the novel off the screen play (he has not seen the film yet) and in the version of the screen play he received it was ambiguous. So the intent of the author and the original screen play is to create ambiguity. 

The reality is the Engineers are probably responsible for the ALIEN PATHOGEN discovered by the Prometheus crew on LV223 and also for the Deacon immortalised in the mural. Certainly we "Know" a Deacon which Ridley describes as a fore runner was created before we reach the XXX121.

Ridley in honing the movie and in his movie support remarks credits David with the creation but that is only the XXX121.

My simple point is the much bigger issue is the origin of the ALIEN PATHOGEN which leads to all kinds of Xeno outcomes. 

That David reflects and is seen to be the perfect example of the real "survivor unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality," and so is the Alien which pays homage to him on birth is connective cinema or at least it would be if it was not undermined by everything he places before Walter about his feelings for Elizabeth.

The problem with asserting that the Engineers created the Egg based life cycle is that in the original screen play and 12 minutes filmed to make the links with Prometheus David lies about the cause of the destruction of Paradise and then tells Walter the truth and he does the same in the unseen sections regarding Shaw why we should then believe he was telling the truth about the Egg "a small dramatic matter' in the story feels once again speculative. 

I really enjoyed the novelisation and am fascinated about a novel called Alien Origins.

 

  

BigDave

Jul-01-2017 4:33 PM

I still have not read the Novel yet so i cant comment on Word for Word what it says... from what i have heard David informs Oram when he points out the Xenomorph Egg with Dead Face Hugger that it was not his doing and he found it as it was.

So yes very ambiguous for sure if we take the Route David did not create it, then we have to ask where David came across this Egg...  Surely the Engineers never had one on Paradise?

Unless Paradise was a Sacrificial Set up place not to use those beings for Sacrificial Seeding (Prometheus opening Scene) but maybe they was used to Gestate Xenomorphs... this is something Star Beast touched upon and HR Gigers Mural too.

But then we have to ask if this place was used for this purpose, why has David only found the One Egg (i assume) surely there would be others or the remains of such.

So another option would be if David found the Egg on LV-223 before he departed and after he put Shaw in Cryo-sleep or indeed after that he went to LV-426 and obtained a Egg.

But then we have to wonder why David had experimented on all those Life Forms to Hybrid Something, i can see him experimenting with the Black Goo to create various Organisms.

But it seemed like he was hand picking certain traits of certain Organisms and combining them over and over until he created those EGGS.

If he had found a Egg, then it defeats that purpose as surely he could Engineer from this Egg.

So indeed what Michelle has said is a good explanation that David was using this to Lure Oram into a False sense of Security well he may had been lying about finding the Egg.

Until we actually see the Screen-Play or we see any of Logan/Harpers Drafts then who knows what elements Alan-Dean had added in this regards.

I think Ultimately we have to go with the Movies as Direct Canon, but i think its all been done again in a ambiguous way so RS can indeed U-Turn and have it that David was Re-Engineering those Eggs.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

airshaft_surprise

Jul-01-2017 5:13 PM

I am gunna stick to chli's argument that david is recreating what the engineers have done before, if it go's the opposite way then the mystery of the derelict and the hatchery on 426 is dead and buried. 

IndyFront

Jul-01-2017 5:30 PM

From some of the deciphered text from David's sketches, it heavily seems that he was mechanically (as a robot would) putting together the Xenomorph from traits and biologies of the life on Paradise. The way it fit together like a puzzle seems to imply that the life on Paradise (and likely other Engineer worlds including Earth) were distilled from a 'perfect organism'. I.E. - the Alien. The idea that humans are unimportant and that nature itself is supreme would fit nicely with the idea that organic life was at one point not so diverse and distilled into a perfect organism that could survive any environemtn on ANY world at ANY time. I.E. - the Xenomorph or Ultramorph from which the Engineers distilled the pathogen.

BigDave

Jul-01-2017 5:54 PM

I think indeed he has been cross mixing traits from various Organic Life...  This is the Purpose of the Sacrificial Goo IMO

SG = Sacrificial Goo

So SG plus Wolf and then resulting Material comes into contact with a Human and we get like a WEREWOLF

SG plus a Cat and then resulting Material comes into contact with a Human and we get like a THUNDERCAT lol

THUNDERCAT plus SG then resulting Material comes into contact with a  Wolf/Human Hybrid and the Result would be 50% Humanoid 25% Cat and 25% Wolf

And so you could experiment in this way over and over and then come up with some pretty unique creations... the Sacrificial Goo being a Tool to Mix Organic Traits of a Organism into Hybridizing with other Organic Life.

Davids uses the Black Goo as a the basis.. where the Process would be the same but every account would contain Xeno-strain DNA Regardless as for the Majority of the DNA so all his Experiments would thus be at least 50% Xeno-strain DNA and by cross mixing he could eventually create something much Higher % Xeno-strain

I think the Juggernaughts and Urns was actually just a Evolved way to Seed worlds with Humanoid DNA rather than Sacrifice a Engineer as we see in Prometheus, they Sacrifice a Number of them collecting the results into those Urns with other Components to then use as a more better way to Seed Worlds.

Hence the Reaction from those Beings in Paradise, until they saw the Black Goo being dropped..

So those LV-223 Engineers had decided to use some Parasitic Ancestor to the Xeno-strain as a basis for DNA in those Urns as opposed to Humanoid...   Those LV-223 Engineers had became obsessed with the Xeno-Ancestor Parasite and saw the Mural Deacon as more Perfect than even their own Engineer DNA.

Thats how i interpret it all... but its a subject thats very open to interpretation.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Jul-01-2017 10:39 PM

@Big Dave

With the interview with the editor Pietro and the Pod Cast with Alan Dean Foster there is new information to discuss. I look at two issues :-

1) My initial reaction .. and why I had it.

2) The author of the matter Ridley,Pietro and Alan which explain why I had it.

Black Goo

You and I have been involved in detailed conversations on the matter of the "Black Goo" verses the Prologue scene and we interpret it the same. There was an uncorrupted (humanoid) creation origin of the catalyser and then a corrupted Paradise Lost use which created the ALIEN pathogen. Pietro actually talks (in the iv) about how Milton's Paradise Lost and its fallen angels were discussed when they were considering the Prometheus Engineers at the time of Prom. When I have been referring to "Paradise Lost already" that makes sense, the creation of the mutagen was the moment when Paradise was lost in the philosophical sense (it is the eating of the forbidden fruit moment). Micro analysis of the Goo (which I see on here) overlooks this there was a big change between the catalyser and the pathogen which is much bigger than biology and all about the philosophy of the mythos.       

Unsurprisingly the questions over the Alien Pathogen have rather like the virus itself infected conversations about Covenant. My sense is all of the outcomes on Paradise (the planet) are the result of David's release of the payload. Paradise was the Valhalla where the acolyte's lived in a state of eco purity and are the seeding population. Janek was right LV 223 was where all the s... was kept. This for others reading is an interpretation it is not a FACT. However based on this supposition I come back to all your questions you offer about the Egg. Why would David find one pre existing Egg in amongst the civilisation of Paradise surely if we accept the Paradise Monk Engineers were engaged in Xeno production why have LV223, why are they a "simple folk" with a natural look and why did Wayne Haag's design instructions not include any sense of as he calls "Xeno tech". Incidentally he like Alan Dean Foster would hope the Xeno tech was something ancient the Engineers came across, none of this movement suggests Egg laying was going on on Paradise, if it was as you say would not our Tibetan Monks in their Paradise react differently to the arrival of the Juggernaut and it is way to pat as storytelling to say I just came across this little chap lying around that is lazy but not if its a lie.

One of the thread contributors has also reminded us that all the dramatic artefacts in the laboratory point in one direction David is the creator of this variant of the ALIEN pathogen. So for me the circumstantial evidence, like you, is that the Egg conversation with Oram is another dissembling of three that were in the original screen play.

Now for people to want the Xenomorph to be an ancient evil force is well known and Ridley will know that and will leave fans their ambiguity but for the purposes of this backing into, David kickstarted the critters in the cave which presumably are still there when the Engineers return (Ridley) and can be added into the story telling. 

Personally now that Covenant has done no better than Prometheus with the Alien strap line and central motive I wish they had stuck to making the Prometheus Pandemonium follow up because many of the concerns that you had about the route they have taken, which I was relaxed about because of the Martian and John Logan, have come home to roost (unintended pun). We have a formulaic first and third act structure though the first is much better than the third and a muddled incomplete second act. I also know why I reacted so positively to the Crossing, after investing so much in Prometheus and the outcome for D & L I wanted that story told not an Alien re run.

Chili is within his rights to want an ancient alien but the creator of the book is on record as replicating (from the original screen play) AMBIGUITY. 

IndyFront

Jul-01-2017 11:42 PM

@Michelle Johnston

I hope you are right about Scott taking note of the appeal of the Aliens being an ancient evil, and takes note vociferously. I also hope that Scott is trolling us with this David stuff. Either way, I believe the mythos of the Alien are so ... well... 'Alien'... that mass-interpretation will remain a theme regardless of what Scott asserts. The Alien Universe is SO much bigger than David-8.

Michelle Johnston

Jul-02-2017 3:31 AM

@Indyfront

The reason that "David made the Alien" is due to John Logan who said if your going to reintroduce the life cycle creature you have to deal with its origin to make the story fresh. That  was what informed the way he developed the screen play.

For me the big story is the Alien Pathogen out of which emerges unsympathetic over sexualised parasitical outcomes with only one objective survival. That the xxx121 is ancient or modern does not concern me. For me the creation story and the origins of the Alien Pathogen are much more fascinating.  

Standing back what disappoints me is the way the Prometheus elements were handled in Covenant and the third act which for me proves the "beast is cooked". Given that David has not built up any emotional capital and is capable of anything and reduced to the "curling moustachioed villain"  I think he is cooked to. What might save a final prequel is the elements he confronts and when for the first time (or second being headless) he does not have the upper hand. 

 

 

 

 

IndyFront

Jul-02-2017 3:33 AM

Well, I heavily disagree with Jodn Logan and 'David made the Alien theory'. So... yeah...

IndyFront

Jul-02-2017 3:34 AM

Also the beat is not cooked ANYTHING can be scary if filmed creatively enough just lok at CHILDREN lmao...

chli

Jul-02-2017 10:31 AM

Concerning the petrified egg in the laboratory (quotation). David to Oram:

"In case you are wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the engineers' skill. And also, I suppose, of their hubris. Would that I could create something so perfect in its function . . ."

There is nothing ambiguous about this, Michelle.

Lawrence of Arabia

Jul-02-2017 10:54 AM

The Engineers created the Deacon while David reverse engineered their process and perfected it with the Proto/Xenomorph.

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

Kethol

Jul-02-2017 4:28 PM

I found nothing in Foster's book that made it sound like this was ambiguous. In fact, it seemed he went out of his way to make it very unambiguous and imply that all David did was cross breed and hybridize to make his own version of the protomorph/ultramorph.

Even in the movie it seemed they went out of their way to indicate that cross breeding was all David could do. He had no advanced technology to work with. Everything in his lab looked primitive, like he made it all by hand. It was about as advanced as a biologist's lab from the 1700s or 1800s (Shelley's Frankenstein-The Modern Prometheus era). The only complex instruments I saw in the movie were his microscopes, and even those looked hand made. There was no indication at all that he had any complex equipment with which to do custom modifications at the genetic 'gene-splicing' level. 

In that AVP interview Foster said this when asked if David 'tinkered with material left behind by the Engineers' - "I just got the feeling that David was working with material that had been left behind by the Engineers, and he’s been playing around with it...It is possible that the Engineers developed the xenomorph, or it is possible that David developed a more advanced version of the xenomorph"

This is what he said when asked if he wrote David's line in the book saying the xeno was an "advanced model" -

"Yes… I felt that that line was necessary, and Fox left it in there. They did not object to it, so fans can make of that whatever they will."

BigDave

Jul-02-2017 5:46 PM

I think this is one of those things that sparks a different kind of debate depending on what Source we use... its like so Many of Prometheus clues and Ambiguity.

I had come to a conclusion that the Mural was a Organism they Sacrificed to create the Black Goo... a few Months after i had came to this conclusion, the Alien Engineers draft got leaked and then when i read it, then it seemed to point to my conclusion being correct.

But then its open to what clues you use, if i was to ignore and never point out things from Spaights Draft, or point out how the Altar had a Sacrificial Bowl instead of that Crystal then to a degree these was all clues i could use to back up my case as far as my Theory was concerned... if we never ever had Alien Engineers Draft or Lindeloffs Paradise and the Trailers had the Crystal and not the Sacrificial Bowl, then i would maybe be not 100% committed to the conclusion i had, as it would have a few doubts raised.

And so the case is the same with the Oram Egg Scene, regarding if we go by the Movie, or the Book,  the movie leaves it a bit open to interpretation but hints at David being the Creator.. The Book is a bit open to but hints much more to David Re-Engineering the Eggs.

Alan-Dean Fosters interview indeed adds that it could be either way and was meant to be a bit ambiguous but more on the side of it being more likely David Re-created the Xenomorph.

While Ridley Scott has came out and said that David indeed is the Creator of the Xenomorph...

I think a lot of Problems arise just as with Prometheus due to changes in how they wish to portray the story just before Shooting compared to the earlier Drafts/Screen Plays and so ADF had no doubt received a earlier Draft/Screen Play to Work off.

It would be like if he did Prometheus Novel and his ending would have shown the Engineer gets up (no Face Burn), leaves his Pilot Chair and walks across the surface of LV-223 and then arrives at the Life Boat, finds the Books and has a Read, admires the Violin Girl etc.... so basically the Deleted Engineer vs Shaw scene plus few bits that was shot but never shown.

Compared to the Movies ending where the Engineer just barges in with his Face Burnt and goes to push Shaw.

Also sometimes Production goes underway before the shooting takes place...  with Prometheus the Juggernaught was planned and Production underway and also the idea of the Chest Busted Engineers from Spaights Draft.. when Lindeloff came in to rewrite the movie some Production was underway and while Sets and Props had somewhat began work on... they remained instead of being changed. hence why Prometheus gave no indication or clues to the Chest Busted Engineers apart from those with keen eyes to spot the Cryo-Pods... which maybe why this raised a lot of Questions.

If indeed these props was for Alien Engineers then that draft clearly informs us the Engineers had been infected with Face Huggers.

And so another Example of this is with AC, where they may have designed the Xenomorph Suit/Props to take into account this is  a EVOLUTION  by David Re-Engineering if these Suits/Props was worked on at the same time ADF did his Novel.

But then they changed things for Shooting, so that maybe David actually now creates the Xenomorph but its too late to go and change all the work already being done..

So they would now go the route to explain the changes in Xenomorph appearance are because Davids creation has to go through some Evolution still to become the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph from ALIEN

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Lawrence of Arabia

Jul-02-2017 5:47 PM

The book isn't as canon as the film as proven by David delivering a different message to Mu-Th-Ur and Weyland-Yutani at the end of the film and by the previous Foster novels. He only works from the screenplay as opposed to the final product. Ridley also stated that originally it was the Engineers who created the Xenomorph but changed it to David because it was more interesting to which I agree.

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

BigDave

Jul-02-2017 5:57 PM

I think its interesting as it leaves it open for debate.. the Book gives some Fans something to point out and moan about or well just say like how they preferred what the Book was showing.

So FOX can then Gauge Fans Reaction, and they can just as easy show it in the next movie that David just indeed Re-created or Evolved the Xenomorph that the Engineers had created.

If they go this route, then its a bit odd how Paradise would have a EGG as Michelle pointed out too, if this was the case its more likely David got it from LV-223 or LV-426, than there just being a Egg on Paradise.

But we do-not know how much changed draft to draft and what Paradise was to actually be like prior to the re-writes that lead to Alien Covenant... maybe Originally those Beings had been wiped out for the most part by a Xenomorph infestation and David just comes across the remains of it?

I think some changes had happened between the Final Draft and Shooting, changes happened to Prometheus where Scenes planned was cut or even Shot Scenes was cut down or out.... 

Maybe they was going for David Re-creating/Evolving the Xenomorph... but then they had a IDEA.... like " WOW YOU KNOW WHAT... WHAT IF WE GO THE ROUTE THAT DAVID ACTUALLY WAS THE ORIGINAL CREATOR INSTEAD?"

I think at some point RS/FOX did come to a agreement that throwing a Curve-ball that David created the Eggs that end up on the Derelict is something interesting...  I know Prometheus had a lot of Criticism and this Forced FOX to bring back the Xenomorph and Tone down the Prometheus parts

The One Shining Light of Prometheus for Many was David, and RS was very interested in his Character and how it can Evolve and also a Huge Fan of Fassbender and so no wonder they decided to Focus on David and throwing that Curve-ball that he created the Xenomorph.

I think its left open so they can Change the Plot depending on Reaction... they could go and show us David created the Eggs which then are Evolved for Alien, or they can indeed lead us to the route that David just Re-engineers/Improves the Engineers Design.

The way the Xenomorph looked and grew etc did suggest to me this Creation was Evolved compared to the Alien One, Faster more Agile, Faster Gestation and Growth and more Aggressive.... seemed a Evolution/Improvement of sorts.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-02-2017 6:01 PM

@Lawrence of Arabia

Again totally agree...  we are on the same page here.. again i was writing my reply while you had put yours... indeed RS feels the David Curve-ball is interesting.

I think some fans dont like it, but the same was for the Space Jockey being Humanoid and Creators of Mankind Curve-ball that came out when they worked on a Alien Prequel.

So i think most of us can accept Davids creation, as long as they show that a Engineer or Elder had become infected with Davids creation between now and Alien.

I worried we would be seeing a Human or Synthetic as the Space Jockey, but the interview comment by RS regarding the 3-4 incoming players/parties which the Engineers will be one of those... has given me HOPE ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Lawrence of Arabia

Jul-02-2017 6:10 PM

I wouldn't say the Proto/Xenomorph in Covenant was an improvement. David obviously sees flaws in his creation via the battle with Daniels. I think the faster gestation period results in a weaker product and that's why in later films it takes longer. To the movement we saw in Covenant I say it has more to do with what we can do with effects now as opposed to 1979. I really hope they stick with the Engineers creates The Deacon, David discovers this and reverse engineers it and modifies it into what we saw in Covenant and that it still needs work. That's my two cents.

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

BigDave

Jul-02-2017 6:24 PM

Indeed i am sure RS would have wanted the Original to be more Agile, its just limitations you have with a Man in a Suit.

I think indeed the way we have the Xeno Portrayed could be played out as a Evolution of a Engineers Egg, or indeed go the route that Davids Creation will go through some Evolution to get to the 1979 Xenomorph.

I think its kind of open for FOX to go either way still.  But i hope they have a Plan and dont do too many U-Turns again.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Lawrence of Arabia

Jul-02-2017 7:31 PM

@BigDave

Sorry I type too fast and I did not see your second comment lol As soon as I wrote my last comment I had just left work :P I totally agree with you, hopefully the Space Jockey is an Engineer. I'd be okay with a human but how would it work with a synth? And yes, please have a plan Fox and stick to your guns Ridley!

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

Michelle Johnston

Jul-02-2017 11:38 PM

@Chili

Concerning the petrified egg in the laboratory (quotation). David to Oram:

"In case you are wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the engineers' skill. And also, I suppose, of their hubris. Would that I could create something so perfect in its function . . ."

There is nothing ambiguous about this, Michelle.

Chili you and I rarely agree on anything you will remember our conversations about David being passive aggressive with Sir Peter which is actually the central point of his relationship and expanded in wonderful literary detail in the book. 

Kethol very kindly has taken a transcription from ADF and he to is not in agreement with me either I quoted this notion to him several days ago (His "not exactly" remarks on another thread) and yet quotes exactly the point I am making 

"It is possible that the Engineers developed the xenomorph, or it is possible that David developed a more advanced version of the xenomorph"

What could be clearer that ADF wants to leave it ambiguous.

What is interpretation is how we initially receive the book I instantly took it to be a lie you took it to be fact thats completely cool. I entirely see how you would do that it would be nice if you had the ability to see the other persons point of view.

I also, like others, take all the other narrative movements and circumstantial elements and move toward a David creation myth. However I must stress unlike many I see the XXX121 as simply a product of a much greater creation story the ALIEN pathogen. David merely synthesised its qualities with other elements to create the particular creatures we see in the third act. 

What we cannot be certain of at a mythological level is how was the Alien pathogen created (so far Ridley sees it as an Ebola like strain) nor its relationship to the life giving humanoid creation spark which is one interpretation of the teardrop incident.

Put simply the Alien life cycle is merely one bi product which David instigates a certain outcome from. It is only part of a much greater and much more terrifying creation story.  

Michelle Johnston

Jul-03-2017 1:07 AM

@Big Dave 5.46 

I simply wanted to say I took a lot of pleasure from reading this post because you actually acknowledge in a very honest way the impact on fans of having so much of the speculative and developmental knowledge in the public arena. 

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that looking at these prequel stories is like turning over a many faceted prism shaped glass and looking at it from a number of angles. 

We also would learn something about ourselves if we as Katherine says "give ourselves permission" to own up to what we want from these films. We find answers which suit us. 

I know I needed the David/Shaw narrative to mean something which left David more emotionally aware, that was my need. The fact it is both vague and Davids reaction is less than clear lets down one of my requirements whereas whether the specific beast that always ends up blown to bits was created by the Engineers, David or Astro Zeneca makes no odds to me but I do see it really inhabits other peoples feelings.

Something else I learned from Covenant I was 23 when A was made and 57 when Prometheus was made both were right for me at those times Covenant is of little interest beyond the academic for this 62 year old. I am currently watching the  final season of "Person of Interest" its analysis of A I knocks the David narrative out of the park.    

chli

Jul-03-2017 1:29 AM

Michelle: As a matter of fact, I agree with most of what you write (and enjoy reading it). You are very skilled and has a lot of knowledge. However, there are some topics where we have differed somewhat. Is David really passive-aggressive? Isn’t he very actively aggressive (the fight scene with Walter, for example, and the extermination of the engineers)? I suppose it depends on how you define passive-aggressiveness?

As for the egg (and facehugger) in the laboratory and whether David created the xeno, it is, of course, ambiguous if we take all things into account - interviews with RS, the movie, script, the novel etc. I suppose it’s because I don’t like the idea that David created the xeno and that the spacejockey on LV-426 only has been dead for 20 years or so (not fossilised). That’s why I was glad that in the novel Foster points out that David didn’t create the xeno (or the egg with the facehugger). He could be lying to Oram of course (about the petrified egg being created by the engineers), but why would he? What would the point be? As they enter the hatchery, David tells Oram that he has made the eggs there. Why would he lie about the petrified egg in the lab?

The mural is also very interesting. I wonder if we should interpret it as some kind of worship of the god of destruction which they can create with the help of the mutagen when they need it (war e.g.). In order to create this perfect being, an engineer or a human needs to be sacrificed?

By the way, the petrified egg could have been brought from LV-223, by the engineers, to their homeworld, just to show the citizens what they have accomplished in their facilities on LV-223?

Michelle Johnston

Jul-03-2017 4:39 AM

@Chili

Thanks a very gracious reply and your points about both the mural and the egg are great possibilities.

I also understand entirely why you want the derelict SJ and cargo to be ancient. The fact that it was at the time of Prometheus and might not be if we back into it is in my view an error. 

Equally I understand how John Logan writing for a huge global audience and the exciting and burgeoning Asia market wanted something quite straight forward.

Kethol, who gives the impression the micro science is important to him, again understandable if you cognate that way makes the point as others have that the laboratory is a bit sparse on tech to take the vials and shaw and engineers and create Eggs from a kick starting position.

The dramatic element in the film which places David as the creator of the creature in the third act is the interaction between the new born and David its really difficult not to see that as a quasi parent child interaction aided by the absent mother Shaw David's great love.

So for me to come and say "This is it" has holes in it where as to say this is how I interpret it and I appreciate others see differently works better.

The real question is, is Ridley deliberately vague with all this or are we, as we always have been, dealing with endless changes to suit whatever is being done in a particular movie.     

Thoughts_Dreams

Jul-03-2017 7:36 AM

Chli: I totally agree with you since it would give David too much of an importance and I don’t like that idea. Unfortunately, the movie was too vague about this. Hopefully Scott doesn’t think that he created the original monster. Maybe I shall try to get the novelization of the movie.

chli

Jul-03-2017 7:13 PM

Michelle: “All’s well, that ends well”, not just when it comes to movies and prequels :) I actually liked the story in AC very much, particularly the relationship between Shaw and David (which is developed beautifully in “The Crossing”). The AI-problem (can synthetics feel - love for example?). David and Walter discuss this in the movie where Walter says that he saved Daniels not because of love but because of duty, which he is programmed for. David says he loves Shaw (but tortures and murders her . . .). In Foster’s novel, this is developed more and Walter is beginning to think that he actually loves Daniels (where he watches her sleep).

I have no problem with David becoming the villain and tampering with biology. It would be sad though if the ancientness of the derelict would be thrown out the window. There are still ways of saving this, although I suppose I could live with it. David, as a synthetic, sitting in the pilot chair of the derelict with a chestburster hole would perhaps be too much, though.

Thoughts_Dreams: Do read the novel. As always, a novel has the opportunity to delve into things more deeply.

IndyFront

Jul-06-2017 5:12 AM

They should have it where David just found the Egg on LV-426 (which is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to Lv-223), and go with Dan O'Bannon's original Xeno backstory and call it a freaking day.

BigDave

Jul-06-2017 8:01 AM

I think FOX/RS are watching in some way the criticism that the movie gets, they have more implied David creates it... as the Novel may not be taken as 100% Canon.

If we look at the Novel maybe indeed as Michelle had said, David could be misleading Oram with the Egg and its Origin... if not then i find it a bit odd that it was found on Paradise, but it could fit in with a story but i find it brings more Questions than Answers.

so if David did not create that Petrified Egg, it would be more likely David either acquired it from LV-223, or LV-426 (Derelict) or indeed it was on the Juggernaught... i dont buy the last one as it would seem Dr Shaw spent some time on this ship before she put David back together.

looking at the Weyland Files and Viral Site etc... i would assume if we take what David said to Oram in the Novel as Canon... and True... that he investigated LV-426 and recovered a Egg and took this with him to Paradise

But the movie makes it seem different, and a bit more drawn to David creating these, or evolving them from Organisms that was created via the Bombardment.   Ridley Scotts comments seem to back up that David created it.

But as the Novel is a bit different, and its a bit ambiguous in the Movie, i think it allows FOX/RS to change which way they will tackle the Origin of the Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict.

I think they have left it open so they can explore a number of ways to show how those Eggs on the Derelict came to be.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

IndyFront

Jul-06-2017 11:37 AM

@BigDave : Perhaps we should start a petition. :P

chli

Jul-07-2017 12:45 AM

BigDave: You’re probably right, as usual. :) Let’s hope that Fox/RS listen to criticism (they seem to have done so in the turning back to xenomorph-horror in AC?). Foster's novel might not be considered canon, but Fox must have approved it, I suppose?

Interestingly, when David shows Oram the petrified egg (and the facehugger) in the lab (in Foster’s novel), he says that “It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the engineers’ skill”. But, it was also alive when he found it: “Sadly, it became aggressive, so I had to euthanize it”.

There are many possibilities here, I suppose. David could be lying (perhaps to make Oram feel secure). But, what’s the point in lying about who created the egg in the lab, when he tells Oram that he did create the eggs in the hatchery? To be honest, Oram is exceedingly stupid (but I suppose we can look at it as curiosity, which killed the cat, took over?).

Furthermore, (as you suggest BigDave) David could have brought the egg from LV-223 or LV-426, or from the juggernaut (but then it wouldn’t have lain as he found it). Another possibility is that the engineers brought it from the facilities on LV-223 to “paradise” to show the citizens (not so wise if it was still alive)?

But, the novel shows us that David did create creatures stemming from the spores (motes) and with the help of the mutagen/pathogen. He shows Oram dead and preserved specimens lined up (like the skinned engineer) as on Madame Tussaud's:  small mutated insects, neomorphs, xenomorphs/protomorphs etc.

But when it comes to who created the xeno (We have the mutagen/pathogen, the mural with a xeno/deacon, eggs and facehuggers etc - and the suggestion from the movie and other sources that David created the xeno), it might be as you suggest, BigDave - they deliberately left it open?

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