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The Mural in Prometheus

The Mural in Prometheus

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Lawrence of Arabia

ChestbursterMember936 XPJun-30-2017 6:15 PM

The Mural in Prometheus is The Deacon. In "The Furious Gods: The Making of Prometheus" it states it as so. When watching chapter 6 "Demons in the Dark" there is an Enhancement video that details this. Apparently David did and did not create the Xenomorphs, he replicated and perfected what the Engineers have already done with their biochemical weapon The Deacon. When wiping out a planetoid, an Engineer would sacrifice himself to a Trilobite and The Deacon would be born to eradicate all non-botanical life. This act echoes when an Engineer would sacrifice himself to create life. The Deacon is a purer form of the Xenovirus/Black Goo/Accelerant as opposed to the "diluted" Xenomorph. The Engineers would worship these creatures of death. Also, The Deacon was the missing link that would tie Prometheus and Alien. What do you guys think? 

"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

50 Responses to The Mural in Prometheus

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPOct-10-2018 9:38 AM

"How did David make the Ovomorphs in Covenant? With Shaw's eggs and manipulation of the black goo, correct?"

I think its evident that David had Created the Xenomorph via experimenting and cross Hybridization with the Black Goo and its effects on various forms of Native Life on Planet 4.   The Black Goo has the ability to be used as  a Hybrid Tool, the Concept was easier originally (Jon Spaights Nano-Scarabs).

Engineer consumes Sacrificial Goo/Scarabs, this breaks him down Molecule by Molecule and the resulting Material is infected with some kind of Mutagenic Pathogen, the Mutagen consumes the DNA/Traits of the Engineer, it then carries this DNA/Traits and passes it onto whatever LIFE it comes into contact with... Passing on the Engineers DNA to said Organisms while also Keeping/Evolving the Organisms best Traits.

Engineer broken down by Sacrificial Substance, becomes a Mutagenic Substance that passes his DNA/Traits on to create a Hybrid....   This Substance + Primate would create a Primate/Engineer Hybrid and THUS our Ancestors.

I can assume the Sacrificial Substance + Wolf would make a ****tail that would pass on Wolf DNA/Traits which if this infects a HUMAN we would get like a WEREWOLF!

Replace WOLF at Sacrificial Stage with a Cat and we end up with THUNDERCATS, replace Wolf with a Turtle and we end up with TMNT!

Bare this in mind..... and we can see the Mural is the Tribute to something they Created/Came into contact with, that they then SACRIFICED to create the Black Goo that then passes on the DNA/Traits of the Organism in the Mural.

Bare all the above in MIND and see the GOO as a Tool to Manipulate/Cross Hybrid Organic DNA.   Sacrificing a Wolf/Human Hybrid  and the resulting ****tail infects a Turtle/Human Hybrid and what we end up with is... IN THEORY..  

A Organism that is 50% Human, 25 Wolf and 25% Turtle.  If we then Sacrifice this Organism with the GOO and its broken down ****tail is applied to a CAT then the Cat would be 50% Cat, 25% Human, 12.5% Wolf and 12.5% Turtle.. IN THEORY...

Now if we look at this and ASSUME i am correct, we can see David can use the Goo to create a all manner of Hybrids and then Mix/Experiment with those Hybrids, trying to Merge/Obtain what ever Traits he wants in Engineering a Perfect Organism.

We NOW need to go back to Basics... what does David know about the Black Goo prior to getting his HEAD Torn off?  He had noticed in context to the Xenomorph... that via the GOO given to Holloway, it had allowed Dr Shaw to Create LIFE and what we got was the TRILOBITE which was basically a kind of Face-Hugger, a Human/Face Huger like Hybrid.

IF we had David wanting to discover the outcome of this (if we assume he never got to witness the Deacon) then he would know in ORDER to replicate the Trilobite, he has to ponder HOW it made Dr Shaw create it. 

Which means.. EITHER

1) Holloways infected Sperm, impregnates Dr Shaws Dormant Eggs to produce the Hybrid Fetus.

2) Holloway acted only as a Vessel to pass on the Black Goo Pathogen like a Sexually Transmitted Disease, and the Pathogen traveled from Holloway to Dr Shaws Dormant Eggs to produce the Hybrid Fetus.

3) As Above... (Sexually Transmitted) but the Pathogen/Mutagen does-not infect any Eggs, but a single component or merging components (Eye-Worms) arrive in Dr Shaws Womb... and uses her Womb to incubate..

By Virtue of the Umbilical Cord and Embryonic Sack i think we can RULE-OUT Option 3

So David... if he wanted to replicate the Trilobite would consider trying WHAT the Goo does when directly infecting Dr Shaws Egg Cells, and also he may need some Humanoid Sperm (Engineers) to infect and then try that on Dr Shaws Egg Cells... we can assume BOTH of these may produce something similar to the Trilobite.

David would also have witnessed what the Spores had create (Neomorph) and so ARMED with Neomorph like Organisms and Deacon like Organisms... David has a basis to then use the GOO to conduct various Hybrid Experiments, to combine those Organisms with Traits of various other Organisms on Planet 4 until he has Perfected his Creation.

IF we assume David has then created like Small Trilobite/Face Hugger like Organisms... maybe for Storage of these Organisms... he tries to Hybrid them with a Organism that has EGGS as in Eggs that are laid that can then suspend the Embryos inside.

In Davids workshop/Notes he has Studied Native Mermaids Purse's now these are Egg Cases that contain the Embryo's of certain Organisms like Sharks, Skates and Chimaeras (Ghost Sharks)  so Potentially David could have seen the Mermaids Purse as a Desired Trait to apply to his Creation to ALLOW it to have some Protective Case to Store the Fragile/Growing Embryo that becomes the Face Hugger.

And so using the GOO , David could utilize the Traits of the Mermaids Purse to provide a Casing/Egg Protection for his Face Hugger Type Stage.

I believe this is what Davids notes are showing, and that he uses the GOO as i have outlined above, to Mix/Evolve his Deacon/Neomorph Hybrids with Traits of other Life-forms until he has achieved his Perfect Xenomorph and Life-Cycle.

He could then use the GOO to obtain the Final Products Traits and then INFECT Dr Shaws Egg Cells to Produce his Xenomorphs.

 

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

TrilobiteMember8212 XPOct-10-2018 4:31 PM

I read somewhere that the mural really had no deep meaning at all and that it was little more than a prop. I will link if I can dig it up.

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPOct-11-2018 7:13 AM

Indeed DK  it was kind of a Easter Egg, a Nod to HR Giger and his Mural and also used as a DNA link to ALIEN.

So it maybe never had any Real Purpose...

Starbeast was the Original Idea and it had Murals that showed the Ritualistic Procreation and Life-Cycle of their Species.

I will have to go and read Jon Spaights works again, i think it mentions Murals but does not offer any descriptions, and i am certain that Lindeloff's works also do-not describe such a MURAL

So it leaves us with Potential Clues that are not intended as Clues, so many theories we work on could be all based on NOTHING!  But then such Clues help to make many Debates and Discussions.

If Prometheus had NO Mural or Fresco's then i think the Xenomorph Link would have been less obvious and also many of the debates about Prometheus would have been much more limited.

ONE thing that Bugs me is we have to QUESTION did they have any actual IDEA how they would explain/explore the Xenomorph Connection back from Inception of the Prequels... It appears with Alien Engineers there was clues to suggest that had a IDEA of where it came from, even if they never intend to SPOON Feed it.

A lot has changed as the years go by, that we had to wonder if they actually had any SOLID idea how to Explore/Explain it SHOULD they ever consider to do so....  but it appears they May-Not have any real Idea... not something they could STICK too......  which then led to the CURVE-BALL in Alien Covenant...   The GOO is now a McGuffin and likely wont get any information on its Origin, or indeed LV-223 and the Xenomorph is the Creation of a Crazy Robot who wants to be a Creator himself.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPOct-11-2018 7:52 AM

Welcome aboard yeoflittlefaith

A number of people have concluded the Engineers are running from something, due to the way they are running and the Deacon like Scream after the Hologram Recording is Activated.  But it is ambiguous, that sound could just be the Hologram Recording being activated and NOT a scream of any Organism.

The Engineer Bodies indeed have Holes that could look like Chest Busters... but due to inconsistencies/clues in the Bodies and comments made by Dr Shaw and others (Janek) it can paint a different picture... as those Space Jockey suits are HOLLOW... the only Logical Explanation is the same as what became of the HEAD, and what we see in the Sacrificial Scene.... those Engineers had been infected with the Black Goo somehow, and they are in the Process of this Spreading and then they break down like the Sacrificial Engineer, such a Violent Chemical Reaction that when contained within a Pressured Suit... its like adding a Mint to a Bottle of Cola and shaking it up and putting the Lid back no..

The reaction/gas build up will try and escape/explode out of the weakest point in the Bottle...  I think this is what happened to the Engineers.... the Reaction to the Infection caused them to turn into Soup... which then Exploded out of their Suits..  The BIG HEAD Room somehow had a Environment that would HALT the Infection and HENCE why those Engineers were running to this Room, and WHY there was a Head inside the Space Jockey Suit Helmet, yet his Body was HOLLOW.

This is just ONE conclusion though....

I can see WHY others come about though.... and the main reason for this is THOSE Props (Dead Engineers) are likely something that was being worked on, based off Alien Engineers (Jon Spaights Prequel) which Prometheus was a Re-Write that began while Production was already under way.

In Alien Engineers, some of those Engineers had birthed Xenomorph related Organisms, other had suffered Death at the hands of such Organisms.  I believe those PROPS were based on Jon Spaights work... and as they had already been worked on by the time we got the Re-writes that then lead to Prometheus... FOX/RS decided to use those Props for Prometheus.

They are HOLLOW because its easier, makes them less work and lighter to move around... but as we can see they appear Hollow in the Movie, it does leave it as a Clue to the Theory i proposed in this reply...

But as the Props where likely from the previous Drafts, then they was created with the intention to SHOW some Chest Busting and also Damage suffered from attacks by Xenomorph related Organisms.

Which leaves either Theory open.....

We also have the Chest Busted Cryo-Pods... now we DONT ever get a clear shot in the Movie, but the Prop Engineers underneath have been Chest Busted...  AGAIN.. Chest Busted Cryo-Pod Engineers was in Alien Engineers draft.

Looking at HOW Dr Shaw had theorized what happened, and a theory like i proposed in this post.... does leave us to PONDER what about those Chest Busted Engineers in Cryo-sleep.

How can some Engineers just break down to NOTHING and others Produce a Chest Buster and HOW-COME those Engineers did not appear to had changed like Fifield?

I think it was RS if not then someone else on Production, mentioned that Fifield would have eventually broken down like the Sacrificial Engineer and Holloway too.  I still would have assumed a Mutation like Fifield inside a Space Jockey suit would maybe have left the infected Space Jockey Suited Engineers, not looking how they did (Space Suits seemed to maintain its Shape/Proportions).

So when looking at the Cryo-Pod Engineers, it could be what ever had Chest Busted from them could have Chased down some of those Engineers, but then HOW did they also get infected? 

This maybe rules out a Docking Infected Juggernaught that the other Engineers investigate and discover the Chest Buster Organisms and run off from them, maybe knocking over some of the Urns in the Process....  I would ASSUME the Space Jockey suits are there to Protect them from the Black Goo but also to Protect the Urns from being Activated. (i ponder if the Prometheus Crew had kept their Helmets on then those Urns may not have leaked.).

So back to the Cryo-Pod Engineers... i was being drawn to maybe they got infected by Hammerpedes.... if they ran into their Cryo-Pods while infected, or potentially and those Small worms had been infected too, then some of these could have got into the Cryo-Pods at some point, or had been stuck at the bottom of the Engineers Boots...

These then either GROW into Hammerpedes and they implant a Embryo inside the Engineers, or the Worms get into the Engineers Mouth and then Grow....

Maybe SABOTAGE is to blame?

Along comes Alien Covenant, that could give us insight when we look at Prometheus... the ONLY Deacon we saw was Birthed from Dr Shaw

Alien Covenant reveals there are FEMALE Engineers, this could mean that Infected FEMALE Engineers could have given Birth to some Deacon Related Organisms and maybe those Chest Busted Cryo-Pod Engineers are Females?

But also to consider is the Neomorphs... and so something related to the Black Goo infection could have in some Engineers created similar Organisms to them and maybe they had been what the Engineers in Prometheus had been running from.

This was the Beauty of Prometheus and its ambiguity in that you can come up with more than ONE theory, that is supported or discounted by the evidence just as much as the next theory would be.

"That’s why he was angry when he woke up and plotted his ship to earth."

The Last Engineer in Alien Engineers was ANGRY when he was awoken, because he was infected, and being awoken by the Humans had Sentenced him to his Inevitable Fate so he kicks off.... then gets into the Space Jockey Chair and set off to EARTH but gets Chest Busted as he is doing so and crashes on LV-426 and Chest Bursts the ULTRAMORPH

I will talk another time about our Angry Engineer in Prometheus and the Jesus Connection.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Freezerinos

OvomorphMember38 XPOct-11-2018 4:54 PM

I'm not trying to be negative or even shortsighted, but the only thing thing mural tells me is that Ridley effed up this entire Alien narrative. The mural depicts a xeno, with Covenant it is clear that David made the xeno's. How does this happen when David was created 2,000 +/- years after the last engineer died in Prometheus? It can't or Ridley, Damon and crew did a really poor job with the story arc. 

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPOct-12-2018 8:13 AM

Well Freezerinos

I will attempt in a short way possible, the route that was being taken and what we ended up with...

Originally the Prequels attempted to address a few things.

*Xenomorph Origin, WHERE/WHY and by Who!

*Space Jockey Race, WHO are they and WHAT is their Purpose.

The Derelict Event was alluded to, but there was so many inconsitancies from Alien Engineers (Earlier Prometheus Draft) that did-not add up to ALIEN

Alien Engineers actually gave quite a few clues to the Xenomorph Origin.  The Plot seemed to indicate the Engineers at some point had discovered a place where there was some Native Organism that had a Life-Cycle similar to that of the Xenomorph, this Organism was found (how i interpret it) in a Cave System.   The Engineers must have seen themselves infected by this Organism and became interested in the Result (maybe because at this period in the Plot, the Engineers could not Procreate/Give Birth to Life as they lost this ability).

As a Race who took a interest in Genetic Manipulation and Pursuit of Perfection they took a Great Interest in this Organism and its Life-Cycle and Results and began to use their CREATION Tool (Sacrificial Goo/Scarabs) to Experiment and Engineer this Organism.. Resulting in a number of Variations of this Organism, that through the Experiments also represented the Xenomorph... Thus they Created the Xenomorph and 7 other Variants.

They had become upset/angry with how Mankind has turned out, and they had Engineered these Organisms to be used as a Weapon.  This is how i Interpret Alien Engineers Draft and the Concept Works.

So it appeared the Engineers are Creators of Life, they go around Experimenting with Life, Evolving it and they had encountered something they had NOT created, and they chose to Experiment with this to Create the Xenomorph which they intended to use as a Weapon to Cleanse the Earth.    The conclusion to how Alien Engineers connects to Alien has flaws and inconstancy... it kind of indicated the Space Jockey Event may have happened at the END of this Story.   For Starters this event happened in the year 2172 so 50 years after the events of ALIEN is this a Typo?

Anyway we then come along to PROMETHEUS well first Damien Lindeloff's Paradise...  the idea with this draft and Prometheus was that MAYBE its best to keep the Xenomorph Origin and Space Jockey Event a Mystery and just give clues to them... and to concentrate more on the Engineers and other Themes as the Xenomorph had been done over and over and over.

Prometheus was more ambiguous but showed there is a connection between the Xenomorph and the Experiments the Engineers had been Carrying out on LV-223 these connections seemed to show that MAYBE the Space Jockey Event was related to the Outbreak on LV-223 some 2000 years ago.

The clues allude us to conclude the Xenomorph was..

*A Organism that the Engineers either Discovered/Created and they had used its DNA to Produce the Black Goo and Experiments.

*A Related Organism they either Discovered/Created and they had used its DNA to Produce the Black Goo and Experiments and the Xenomorph was a eventual result of this.

*The Black Goo was obtained/created by some other means and the Xenomorph is the result of one of the Experiments of Accident regarding the Black Goo.

It was left ambiguous.... but likely the Xenomorph connects via one of those THREE options.

Ridley Scott after Prometheus CONFIRMS the Xenomorph Origins and Space Jockey Event by saying it was a Event Related to what was being experimented on LV-223.  The EVENT happened within a Few Hundred years of the Outbreak on LV-223 so happened a either 2200 years ago give or take or 1800 years ago give or take.  Something had EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold and then infected the Pilot, who then set a course to the near by Moon of LV-426 to Quarantine his Ship.

BUT ALAS.......

We got Alien Covenant were RS felt the Hubris of Mankinds Creation of Life trying to imitate GOD in the Creation of David and also seeking out our own Creators/Makers.   Leads us to this Place our would-be Creators had been experimenting with some Pretty Horrific Bio-Weapons... Intended for us...

The Horror of the Hubris of seeking out things we should not be seeking, and Creating things we should not be Creating comes back to HAUNT us as our Creation David, decides to Create/Perfect his own Creation from the Bio-Weapon Experiments the Engineers had been attempting to Create/Harness and that a Android who we created has now become Sentient, and sees itself as the Natural Evolution and Superior and that Mankind are NOT Worthy of our Existence.   And essentially also feels the Engineers were not worthy of their Secrets too...

Ridley Scott felt this Curve-ball was more a Horrific Realization to the Creation of the Xenomorph.  In that IF Weyland had NOT played GOD himself and then wanted to Seek his MAKERS for immortality then the Xenomorph would not be unleashed into the Galaxy.

So thats the EVOLUTION of the idea behind the Xenomorphs Origins that the Prequels had taken...

The Fans suffering the same Hubris that RS is trying to tell.... SOME THINGS are best left alone and Quest for Answers should not be attempted.

In that RS wanted to steer away from the Xenomorph and Alien and explore the Engineers and other Creation Philosophical Themes...   But he seemed upset that Fans did not like the route he wanted to go, and WANTED more Xenomorphs and the Answers to the Space Jockey and his Cargo...

Se we now end up with a Answer that is something most of us would NEVER had wanted.... but as RS said "they want Aliens, i will give them $£%£^ Aliens"  he does now seem to prioritize his AI and Creation Theme above the Xenomorph.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Freezerinos

OvomorphMember38 XPOct-12-2018 5:34 PM

Thx for your reply! I understand all this and I even have other thoughts about the "Alien" story. It still boils down to major story lines not matching up. Now I believe the story is so screwed up, we might not get another movie to bring us along. Movie houses I think may have had enough. I  guess I am very disappointed as a fan. Give the franchise to Blomkamp and see what he can do. That is my vote.

dk

TrilobiteMember8212 XPOct-12-2018 7:06 PM

Freezerinos The time tables are a problem for sure. I enjoy the movies way more just ignoring the time line honestly.

I agree about giving Bloomkamp a shot.

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPOct-13-2018 7:32 PM

I think its just a case of a lot of changing of their minds as they go along instead of having a A-Z Plot and Explanation even if they dont reveal every aspect as long as those working on it have such ideas already discussed.

I am not sure what Blomkamp could bring to the Franchise if he was to tackle the Prequels...  His ideas in ALIEN 5 seemed interesting to a degree... i just think he could set such a Plot after the Events of ALIEN: Resurrection or certainly the time between Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection and NOT resurrect Ripley, Newt and Hicks!

Exploring a Evolving/Mutating Ripley 8 could be interesting or what happens to her after Alien Resurrection, does she DIE? Get Killed?  and if so WHAT becomes of her Remains...  has someone obtained her DNA and we then START off from this Perspective?

I actually had a ALIEN 5 Plot idea... where Call is revealed to have secretly been sent to OBTAIN the Evolved Ripley 8 for the Benefit her the AUTON CULT

We can CGI overlay Miss Weaver to get results like Image A, but only for a Short Scene, as we reveal she is starting to EVOLVE as the Xenomorph DNA starts to Re-write her Human DNA, we then progress to her Skin becoming Grey and like Holloways in Image B and she could be played like this for Longer where Make-Up can hide her AGE... she then has some other changes like Image C before she Progresses to a Cross Between Image D and E but more Organic, and having some Resemblance to Miss Weaver.

Autons Capture her and use her DNA to create a new version of Xenomorph...  she breaks loose EVOLVES, and prevents the Xenomorphs from getting a Foot-Hold and saves the Day....

Before she starts to Battle with her Xenomorph DNA and how it is changing her more than in Physical Appearance where she worries about what happens when all HUMANITY has been removed/rewritten from her.. 

Plus the Knowledge of WHAT happens if she is ever captured or a sample is once again OBTAINED...

She Sacrifices herself... giving her another Fitting End.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1602 XPOct-16-2018 7:54 AM

They should have used it in a better way and connected it closer with the Xeno and the engineers. It should have made more sense to the story. If something seems important then it must connect with the story in general and not be so vague so you can make up what ever answer that fits your purpose. Yes it can be fun to speculate but at some point it becomes so vague so it becomes ridiculous, as the example with the crucified Xeno/Xeno-ish monster shows.

“but it appears they May-Not have any real Idea... not something they could STICK too......”

That is a problem, you got to have some idea about what you want to say in your story or else it just becomes something that becomes vague so you might understand it but those that shall read it or watch it might have a very hard time to make sense of it. You got to have some A-Z that connects the dots so to speak.

“The GOO is now a McGuffin and likely wont get any information on its Origin, or indeed LV-223 and the Xenomorph is the Creation of a Crazy Robot who wants to be a Creator himself."

What a mess, I hoped that the goo would be something interesting and make sense. I still think that it is interesting in a way but they made it worse (as they did with many things) in Alien Covenant. Things got to make sense in movies although everything do not need to be obvious but it got to be thought out it doesn’t seem that they did so with the goo.

As far as the origin of the Xeno that just plain sucks. I have said this many times before but I do not like it to be so closely connected to humans. It would be better if the Engineers developed it and David made his own version of it or that the Engineers got it from another life-form and made their own thing and David did his. Right now it is just crappy but unfortunately we can not undo Covenant.

Freezerinos

OvomorphMember38 XPOct-27-2018 2:36 PM

Coming back to this a few weeks later. I still can't understand how Ridley, the man who was obviously one of the main cogs in creating this "Alien" universe, made such a mess of this story line from "Alien" to "Alien: Covenant". I enjoy all of the movies on their own (Except the 4th...trash). Loved the transition from 1 to 2 even to 3, even find myself watching the AvP's way more than I should. Then came Prometheus, and as we all know the narrative took a 90 degree turn. At first, I thought it was crap to be honest. But being such a huge fan of the franchise, I stuck with it and now view it as a highly underrated film. It took balls to go in the direction that film went, and only Ridley could have pulled it off at that point in time (Damon needs a ton of credit as well). Prometheus should and could have been a catalyst into an awesome "Alien" narrative, but Ridley suc***bed to Xeno fanboys who complained how there were not any in the film. And boom, Alien: Covenant. The film standing on it's own was pretty good. In the "Alien" arc, a total disaster. Oh what could have been. 

Kongzilla

ChestbursterMember666 XPOct-28-2018 1:50 AM

Well, if Ridley want filmed Alien movie without alien FOR THE GREAT STORY, of course. Why he destroying Blomkamp project? Movie special for people who want saw Alien movie with alien.

 

And more! The "original" Engineers - primeval caveman race who living in Stone Age? Seriously? Where biomechanical MEGAPOLICE? Where living hi-tech technologies, what we see in Prometheus? Where the great design of bodies? Like as great Engineers from Prometheus (yeah, they modified for living in space and another blahblahblah). Where all cool stuff, what peoples expecting see after Prometheus? Why they kill Show (repeat Alien3 mistake), by the way?

We have ONLY TWO original stuff - magic flying glowing rocks and neomorphs.

 

I love AC so much, and this is really cool movie and Xenomorph is one of the few things who made this movie cool.

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPOct-31-2018 7:18 AM

@ Freezerinos

I will try and make another reply to your last post, one that is more straight to the point.  One i may have already covered though.

Indeed the Xenomorph was a more Ancient Event, One which as of between 2011-2013 at very least Ridley Scott had envisioned to have taken place around (give or take Few Hundred Years) the time of the OUTBREAK on LV-223, the Xenomorph (while still being a bit ambiguous) was thus a either a Result of those Experiments/Black Goo on LV-223 or the Xenomorph was the Origin that lead to those Experiments/Black Goo on LV-223 (RS hinted at the prior)

RS had a U-Turn where they felt having the Xenomorph become Created by David as being a sign of Ultimate Hubris on behalf of the Engineers (for Creating us/allowing us too much Freedom and knowledge) and then Mankind Repeating the same error with Creating David.

This does lead to a few Problems as far as there is NO Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict (likely No Derelict) on LV-426 some 17-18 years prior to the Events of ALIEN... more so we can assume those Eggs Do-Not get on the Derelict before David arrives at Origae-6 which means that there are NO Eggs on the Derelict 10 years before the events of ALIEN

How can they address how the Derelict and Space Jockey looked like they had been there for a VERY long time?

*Employ some kind of Time-Travel Aspect, ideally as the result of a Destructive Force that Tears a Hole in Space/Time.

*Reveal that David does-not create the XENOMORPH but reveal he just creates his own VERSION.

*Leave things how they are going and the age of HOW-LONG the Space Jockey looks like its been there as just a Oversight.

I think Option 1 would be the best way forwards, but add running up to this that the Engineers Re-Engineer Davids Xenomorph.  But if they was allowed to continue with the Prequels i think we would just get Option 3 were the Assumption Dallas made about how old it looked like its been there and Fossilized are WRONG!  But his Assumption it looked like it Grew out the Chair  as being CORRECT.

I agree that going the David as Creator route is a ERROR in Hindsight but its something that can be fixed. By him being revealed as the Middle-Man so to speak.

I will add that indeed while PROMETHEUS did not give us those Answers to ALIEN, it was setting up something interesting but it just never GAVE the Answers some wanted or Xenomorphs... and NOW its a case of sometimes its be Careful what you WISH for because the Answers you get may NEVER live up to the expectations you would have hoped for.

I think this in part played a role in WHY they Toned down the Xenomorphs and Connection from Alien Engineers, thinking some things are better left to MYSTERY it appears that prior to 2013 their was NO WAY David was planned as the Creator, it appears between 2013-2014 they had the idea that David would Create Something Similar in that the Process of how he does this would give us clues to how the Original Xenomorph had came to be.  Then in 2015 it appears they thought while that was interesting would it not be more Shocking a Reveal if David actually Created the Original Xenomorph.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPOct-31-2018 7:42 AM

@Leto

I dont think it was the case of RS destroying Blomkamps Project, its more a case of Blomkamp (guided by Miss Weaver) had attempted to Destroy/Undo the other Movies after ALIENS and undermine RS Prequel ideas.

Blomkamps ideas Originally never involved having to resurrect Hicks, Newt and Ripley.  I  think his ideas should be taken on board for another ALIEN movie but NOT have Ripley, Newt or Hicks in it at all, unless its SET after the events of ALIEN Resurrection which is where i think a ALIEN 5 should be set.

I agree we need to get back to the more Advanced Bio-Mechanical Technology Aspect of those Prometheus Engineers.

Back to the MURAL....

Contrary to what some interpret it Does-Not show a Xenomorph, it shows something related, and it was confirmed by some working on the Project that this was the DEACON and the Urns contained DEACON DNA in that under a set series of cir***stances those Urns would Produce a Deacon.

The MURAL had No Traditional Face Huggers, it depicts the TWO other Face Hugger Concepts that HR Giger had made and so it was simply a Mural in Honor of HR Giger.  and in part is just a EASTER EGG but in part a Confirmation that this place (LV-223) is connected to the Xenomorph as far as Experimentation goes.

The Jesus like POSE is also interpreted as being a sign of GOD and Worship... the only Religion where the Cruciform Pose is recognized as GOD and Worship is Christianity based Faiths.   The REAL reason for this is to Remind People that it was via his SACRIFICE (God/Christ) that Humanity has been given a Chance of AFTERLIFE for those who Remember the Sacrifice he Gave as well as following the Gospels.

So the MURAL should be looked at something that requires SACRIFICE which means that it leads us to TWO things.

1) That in order to Create/Give Life to the Xenomorph/Deacon (and related) requires Sacrifice and so its shows us that the Organism is Birthed via the Sacrifice of its Host.  Which in Context to LV-223 and those Engineers must mean they Self Sacrifice to Produce these BEASTS and they intend to Sacrifice their Creation (Mankind) to give LIFE to the BEAST.

2) That the Black Goo in those Urns and Experiments relating from it, came from the Sacrifice of the Organism depicted in the Mural, or they had Experimented to obtain such a Organism and then Sacrificed it to obtain the DNA that is in those Urns.

Regardless of which... the Engineers Admire and have some Worship to the Creation of Such BEASTS

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1602 XPOct-31-2018 11:15 AM

Leto:

I agree that how they did the Engineers in Alien Covenant was lame. I imagined an advanced culture with science, military, buildings and so on... not how they were made in AC. My guess is that the studio thought that we as an audience were not interested in them after Prometheus so maybe they thought “get rid of them and focus on David”, which was the totally wrong response IMO.

Killing off Shaw was not a problem to me, she was annoying and naive. She was better in the Crossing (I think that was what the short clip before Covenant was titled) than in Prometheus by the way.

Having said this I am not interested in another Ripley movie. She has had four movies this far and we have had marines and so on so I can not see how they can make another exciting Ripley movie. At least the prequels have given us new characters that have been flat OK but at least they tried.

You like Alien Covenant? I think that it had mostly lame characters so I disagree.

Now, I was never very interested in another Ripley movie but what made me even more against it was to retcon (is that the word?) Alien 3, which is my favorite movie in the franchise and one of my favorites in general. Because of this I am totally OK that it never got made at least not with how they planned it. Having new characters that are well written would have been alright without writing out Alien 3 but having Ripley and Hicks back (and/or) Newt? No thanks

Let Scott direct and make landscapes and that but keep him far away from the story or else will get another ****ing David movie.

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPNov-01-2018 6:29 PM

I think what we need to remember is the Prequels are showing us that there are certain WAYS of Life to Live, that are appeasing to the Ways of the Gods.  We have people on Earth who have adopted more Primitive Ways of Living to keep themselves as close to their Religion/Culture as possible.

The AMISH people are one Example, they live by the ways that their Culture/Religion interprets from the Source Material for their Culture (The Bible) choosing to live in a way that many had done before the Industrial Period and Period of what Civilization had changed to that could be consider at times to be against the Ways of God.

It could be those Engineers are living the same kind of existence to a degree, where the more Technologically Advanced Equipment and Ships are only used for a Certain Purpose for some Greater Cause.  But where as for most Day to Day Survival of their Species they Do-Not need such Advanced Technologies.  It could be that due to Trouble Caused by having such Advanced Technologies and being involved in what ever they had used such Technology for... they had decided to SHUN the Technology and Gains it would have accept in Rare Cases.

When CHAOS comes from the Evolution of Society and all the Corruption, the Deceit and Unlawful behavior, you can see some people would just live to imagine being WHISKED off to a Far Away Island to seek out and Live a more Basic Life of Peace and Harmony, this could be what those Engineers are doing.

We also have to consider they could be just as ADAM/EVE were in the Bible, and thats a Humanoid Creation who are Given a Land (Garden of Eden) where they are contained within the Walls of this Place, Watched over by Gods Cherubim Angels were maybe these beings Live Out their Lives sticking to the Rituals and Ways of their Forefathers or Hierarchy and that every now and again a few are selected to SEED Life on other Worlds in their Image. 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

SuperAlien

XenomorphMember1303 XPNov-02-2018 12:44 PM

BigDave what do you make of Holloway's words that the head room was another tomb? With all the frescoes and mural and the urns it reminded me of an ancient Egyptian tomb. In this case could the altar be a sarcophagus? Was there a dead body (aside from the dead engineer) buried there? Was that actually a burial chamber belonging to a xenomorph? What if those engineers from LV223 were at first just passers-by,  like the Prometheus crew was later on? What if LV223 was the home planet of the Star Beast?

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPNov-03-2018 9:51 AM

Its interesting Remark by Holloway but he is NO Expert, however the Dialog in the Movie is there to offer hints and so it could be that indeed behind the Mural could be another Tomb, this would mean that the Ampoule/Urn Room was a Tomb and we see it had the Big Head Statue which Fifield had questioned... is that GOD?

Its hard to tell IF that Door would have lead to any other such Tomb, looking at the MAP its hard to see it leading to anything but another Passage Way.

A = Big Head/Urn Rooms

B = The Center Part where Holloway takes off his Helmet

C = Passage way to the Juggernaught Hanger

So its hard to really see what lies behind it, i would speculate a Sacrificial Chamber as in my Re-write i did of Prometheus we get a Glimpse of this room and it is similar to the Star Beast Mural.  Its a Room that Humanoids are Sacrificed to incubate the Deacon.  But that was just my take on it all.

Its hard to connect to STARBEAST as so much has changed as far as what Prometheus Presented... but we can go by what Alien Engineers seemed to indicate which could be this WORLD was a place those Engineers had discovered a Organism similar to the Xenomorph (well its Ancestor) and they set up a Outpost to Experiment and Engineer new versions of this Organism.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

SuperAlien

XenomorphMember1303 XPNov-04-2018 6:37 AM

Holloway was an archeologist so he should have seen a lot of ancient tombs to recognize one when he sees it. A lot of lines were silly in Prometheus,  like the Martian piss one, but the one about another tomb came at a moment when what was being said should have had some significance, they were exploring the head room, with its mural and frescoes and the green crystal. It was like when the tomb of Tutankhamun was discovered. The entire scene and all that was said in that room, including the remark from Holloway, should have had the same weight as the remark from Dallas when he described the Space Jockey. 

Ridley Scott introduced in the 2 prequels some unused concepts from the time of the Alien, like the pyramid and a mural and eggs, now shown as a dome, a strange mural and the black goo urns. I think he used the engineers as a pretext because he stated the Space Jockey was a suit and he needed someone to wear the suit, if he planned a bigger role for them, then why finish them off in a flashback scene later? And the way he portrayed the engineers in Covenant,  were they truly that poor in spirit or this was just the way David saw them? They were no gods or godlike, that's for sure.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPNov-05-2018 3:51 PM

"Holloway was an archeologist so he should have seen a lot of ancient tombs to recognize one when he sees it"


I think thats a good point and maybe i had jumped the GUN a little, i would say indeed as a Archeologist then Holloway would no doubt have came across Tombs before.  The Scene does hold some ambiguity as he is looking at the Altar and Crystal/Rock when he makes the "just another Tomb" comment before he shines his Torch onto the Mural.

The Prequels have a number of such ambiguous comments like this, where we could interpret this was aimed at the Mural and what lies beyond, or indeed it could be in regards to the Big Head Room alone.  But as i said before i feel a number of the dialog comments are there to grant us clues, and so i would have thought the comment was there to indicate something lies behind that Mural which is in effect likely just another DOOR.

Looking at Prometheus Again, it does appear via the Maps that it leads directly to another Passage Way... which leads to another Room However....  I think Pondering what lies behind that Mural/Door is something interesting as a reveal that it leads to NOTHING i feel would be a disappointment.

We have to perhaps look at what we see in the Big Head Room and that Altar and Mural and the only conclusions that make sense for what could be behind that MURAL/DOOR has to be either.

1) A Place where they Sacrificed Hosts to Produce the Deacon/Xenomorph related Organisms.

2) A Continuation of that were they Sacrifice the then Said Deacon/Xenomorph related Organisms to obtain whatever is in those Urns.

The Prometheus Re-write (Edit) i worked on would have shown a Glimpse of behind this MURAL were it would have had more Clear Murals/Frescoes but also housed like Cryo-Stasis Pods standing upwards as well as other Smaller more Spherical Pods showing us this Room was where they Stored Hosts and Face Hugger like Organisms. 

I think with Dallas what he discovered was something he certainly would have not been any expert on, and so his ASSUMPTIONS have seemed to be just that... However....

I think there is scope that the ONE he made could indeed be correct (The it looks like its grown out of the Chair) because this would help to airbrush over the Size difference of the Engineers and Space Jockey.

But i do agree that maybe there should be something more to it than that because indeed we was introduced to our Engineers in Prometheus, and teased the connection between them and the Space Jockey race... that certainly it set up Sequels to explore these SPACE JOCKEYS in more detail, yet the Sequel we got a Race of Engineers who were so much further away from the Space Jockey Clad Folk in Prometheus and killed off in a Flash Back that it seemed just a shame to BRUSH them under the Carpet.

So indeed they were NO GODS.... but the reveal in a Comment that those Folk where the Original Engineers, now makes the whole Creation Hierarchy a bit LAME and certainly that there is NO Godlike Beings, just Advanced Knowledge and those in Control of this become the GODS.

But we can only hope that it left the Door Open to wonder who Originally had all this Knowledge, and introduce us to something more Godlike than our Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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