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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel by Ridley Scott

Alien: Covenant

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So... about the Derelict

So... about the Derelict

Burke, Carter J.

Member

3

Posted Jun-16-2017 10:55 PM

I'm sure this topic has been discussed dozens of times already, but here goes again.

I just get get my head around how the prequels would ultimately connect to the derelict on LV 426, especially since there's now only 18 years left till it's discovery by the crew of the Nostromo. It's beginning to dawn on me, that they've written themselves into a corner here and that Ridley might not even intend to connect it properly to the rest, so we may never get a real answer to that.

But maybe you know something I don't, or even have a good idea, how it might be done, so please feel free to submit any and all theories you might have.

I'm really an ok guy.

Replies

Nathan Adler

Member

8

Posted Jun-16-2017 11:24 PM

@Burke: I suspect if Ridley had been able to deliver his prequels as planned, the Derelict would be a ship knocked off its original direction and was part of a fleet launched to bombard Earth in a space invasion scenario.  One of the films would likely end up a space war.

Burke, Carter J.

Member

3

Posted Jun-16-2017 11:53 PM

It would have to have experienced trouble in flight due to an infection by a facehugger, since there's the exploded chest of the Space Jockey. But that could have also happened after it crashed on that desolate rock. Yeah, I can see that being the case.

Here's my take on the Jockey:

As a kid, long before Prometheus, I always liked to think that the Space Jockey was a lone explorer of space on a scientific vessel who happened upon the eggs on it's journey, not knowing exactly what it had stowed away in it's cargo bay.

Another idea I had was that the derelict might have had a bigger crew and the Jockey was the designated pilot, fixed into place on that chair, or as Dallas remarked, grown out of it. Maybe the rest of the crew didn't even look like the Pilot. And when the cargo got loose, the pilot was simply unable to flee with the rest of them.

I'm really an ok guy.

Necronom IV

Member

11

Posted Jun-17-2017 6:59 AM

As the "cargo hold" is so vast it is impossible it is inside the derelict. This is due to the fact that the eggsilo and derelict originally were two separate entities, but for budget reasons they had to do away with the eggsilo idea and the vast chamber became part of the derelict vessel. 

I've never liked this idea and clearly as the view above show, the chamber is vast. It goes on forever... 

So, my idea is that the entire planet has these chambers and they have been built by the same race as the space jockey as clearly the have the same biomechanics design. The chambers produce the eggs as per according to HR Gigers ideas, or if you will the space jockey race engineered them or is basically the same lifeform, but the space jockey is in a later stage of evolution.

Anyway, the derelict sits on top of this chamber and something has gone terribly wrong.

I also always imagined the Space Jockey to be a fixed part of the ship, they are one and the same. The rest of the crew being matured xenos or something. Remember HR Gigers name for the original xeno painting Necronom IV...:

Necronom I = Egg

Necronom II = Facehugger

Necronom III = Larvae aka chestburster

Necronom IV = classic Xeno (sort of juvenile)

Necronom V = something we haven't seen yet, but could be a non violent and intelligent lifeform capable of interstellar travel i.e. space jockey

Above are of course all my thoughts, but I think if done properly they could make a nice connections. If they always analyse Gigers work and the original Dan O Bannon and Ron Sushetts script and mythos if you so will.

The Engineers being matured xenos and David stumbling onto something that has to do with their race procreation that they since then have discarded in favour of the much more versatile and advanced black goo. The cave painting left by ancient tribes on eaerth are not invitations, but warnings since these beings come to earth and harvest genetic material (classic UFO myth) which they take back to their sciencelabs i.e LV223 and LV426.

I feel I am babbling now so I hold here, but in essence there are numerous ways to tie everything together :)

"Kane's son"

BigDave

Moderator

262

Posted Jun-17-2017 7:05 AM

@Burke

Originally this was the case, the Space Jockey and his Derelict was just some Giant Race who explored a World and encounter those Eggs on it and attempted to take them to the Ship.

Originally after this Plot was changed, it was though the Space Jockey was connected to the Chair too.

Things have evolved along the way, prior to Prometheus even many years prior RS had confirmed the Space Jockey was a Space Suit. The Derelict a Bio-Weapon Carrying Warship.

Prometheus gave us a extension on this to give us the Engineers but then HR Gigers Concepts showed us Bald Humanoids in Space Suits.

A thing to remember is a lot to do with the Franchise and Especially movies that Ridley Scott has worked on, is there is a lot of OVERSIGHTS...

*Two Different Space Jockey Sizes (13-15ft/20-23ft)

*Cargo Hold much Larger than the Derelict.

These came from Alien.

Prometheus gave us a ship that looked different and Space Suits that was slightly different but a Smaller SJ Race

Alien Covenant then expanded on the Oversights to a greater level.. some parts of the Juggernaught looked close to the Derelict but then some parts matched the one from Prometheus.

The not-so Engineers on Paradise, and even the Altered Gestation and Growth rate of the Xenomorph.

Are all Oversights we are expected to not notice and just ignore.

The route they are going now is interesting because it now certainly means the Derelict was on LV-426 for a Maximum of 18 years and potentially much less.... due to David creating those Eggs...  and maybe when we get the Space Jockey Story we could end up seeing a 8ft Space Suit worn by a Human or Synthetic and a Derelict that looks like a Juggernaught.

And we just have to accept these things are the Space Jockey/Derelict in Alien despite the differences.

I hope that the only AWAKENING we are in for is FOX/RS wake up and learn from their mistakes.

Tiwaz

Member

16

Posted Jun-17-2017 7:06 AM

Here's my take:

1.) The SJ wasn't alone (Alien: River of Pain)

2.) The Derelict crashed/landed roughly at the time of the 223-breakout (R. Scott, take it with big grain of salt)

3.) It is unlikely the SJ is fossilized, the conditions don't meet the requirements for fossilization. In theory fossilization can occur within months, given the right circumstances. Therefor it is not suited for age determination.

4.) Peter Weyland knew of the 426-signal before the Prometheus-mission (Weyland-Files).

5.) The signal contained a brief description of the organism (Weyland-Files or WY-Report, Im not sure wich).

6.) Capt. Marlow of the Inisidora deactivated the signal roughly 15 yrs after the Nostromo-incident (Alien: Isolation, yes, that game is canon).

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

BigDave

Moderator

262

Posted Jun-17-2017 7:12 AM

I doubt that RS may change his Mind again about the Xenomorph Origins.... as originally indeed it was created by the Engineers well they played a key Role (yet Source i had 2.5 years ago claimed that actually the Engineers did not create the said Xenomorph but Mankind played a bigger role).

But now we have it as David creates it using a Human in the Process, and with the Engineers Black Goo Bio-Weapon.

There are a few Flaws from Alien to Prometheus/Alien Covenant.

*The Difference in Aesthetics between Juggernaught/Derelict

*The Difference in Size between the Space Jockey and Engineers.

*The Cargo Hold being to large for the Derelict.

And so these things can be changed as far as what has already been established, we could have for example.

*Derelict/Space Jockey are a Ancient Race and those Engineers Re-Engineered the Technology.

*The Cargo Hold in Alien is actually a underground Silo.

*The Engineers Re-weaponized Black Goo off those Eggs, and David merely Re-Created and Evolved those Eggs.

So it still can be changed, FOX/RS did take onboard some critics with Prometheus and thus gave us Alien Covenant, they could maybe change things again... but i think a lot was to do with how they FELT that a Prometheus 2 would not do well because people wanted Xenomorphs and was more interested in Blomkamps Alien 5

I hope that the only AWAKENING we are in for is FOX/RS wake up and learn from their mistakes.

BigDave

Moderator

262

Posted Jun-17-2017 7:21 AM

@Tiwaz

Indeed they could explore any route really, i think Ultimately However..... what is on Film is Canon and anything else can be De-canonized.  Even as far as any W-Y Report Books, the Viral Marketing for Prometheus etc etc.

So i think once RS has made his 1-2 other Prequels we should then have a clear answer and then we can look at other works and finally see which has to be scrapped from Canon.

Right Now.... RS has a certain Vision and AI plays a Large role in this, and i think he wants to make 1-2 more Prequels and then 2-3 Sequels to his ALIEN movie... which means by the time he is done we could even see ALIENS and the Queen De-Canonized we just cant be 100% sure.

I think we have to accept and overlook some Oversights, and we also have to maybe not take anything else as 100% Canon, we can consider them but not 100% be sure we can use them to determine a Theory.

One thing thats maybe not a Oversight... but could be... and hopefully is not because that would be Totally Lazy.. well actually Potentially 3 Things.

*The Hole Kane went down into the Egg Chamber, was made via Acid Leak... its a Pretty Large and Deep Hole through the Bulkhead.   How did this Happen?  surely a Xenomorph did not cut his Finger lol.

*The Chest Buster in Alien Covenant, this could be a Oversight if we are never shown another different Chest Buster by the time we get to the Link to Alien.. but if they do show us a Final Stage Xenomorph then surely they would have to go back to the Original Alien Chest Buster Design.

*Another maybe potential Oversight we may have to accept but also maybe something that would be covered and so will not be a Oversight.. could be seeing the Final Piece of the Puzzle that gives us a Bio-Mechanical 1979 Xenomorph.

I hope that the only AWAKENING we are in for is FOX/RS wake up and learn from their mistakes.

Tiwaz

Member

16

Posted Jun-17-2017 7:33 AM

Noted, til it actually IS de-canonized by released material. 

You know what I think bout Ridley-Mumbles, BD. 

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

S1m0n

Member

3

Posted Jun-17-2017 7:43 AM

I just hope David was not the creator as such but has built on what has already been created.

I still think the engineers should play a bigger part ion the movie and possible another race we don't know about? maybe a more advanced race who have been at war with the engineers? maybe the black goo creators themselves. ?

Tiwaz

Member

16

Posted Jun-17-2017 7:53 AM

Agreed, S1m0n.

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

Kethol

Member

6

Posted Jun-17-2017 8:30 AM

"I just get get my head around how the prequels would ultimately connect to the derelict on LV 426"

There does not have to be any direct connection to that specific ship in Alien. The overall connection has already been made, in that we know who the Engineers are and what they do. That was just another Engineer ship in the same system. We don't need to know specifically what happened to cause it to crash and how the pilot got infected. I can guess, but would rather that one remain a mystery.

If Ridley and Fox decided they want to lead directly to that specific ship, there are all sort of ways they could do it with David's story.

BigDave

Moderator

262

Posted Jun-17-2017 8:33 AM

I still think Tiwaz that some elements from the Novels could be used as inspiration to how they would handle this... so they can bring the Engineers into it at a future time but one that deals with a Timeline closer to the event of Alien

I hope that the only AWAKENING we are in for is FOX/RS wake up and learn from their mistakes.

Kethol

Member

6

Posted Jun-17-2017 8:38 AM

If they do make a direct connection, I hope they factor in the fact that the chamber in the screen shot above could not fit inside that Juggernaut. That cavern would be well below the hull, and the way it twists and turns in the distance does not follow the Juggernaut shape either.

It has to be structure under the ship. Possibly a facility it was docked to.

Ripleys_Ghost

Member

28

Posted Jun-17-2017 9:01 AM

An idea that I've had is that The Engineers technology along with the black goo mutagen reaches a kind of "singularity".  They meld with with their machines and their world becomes the 'biomechanical' one hinted at in the original Alien movie.  So, you get space vessels wherein you can't tell where machinery ends and flesh begins.  You have Engineers that are in fact, part of their vessels and other technologies.

Yes, at this point it's hard to get from point 'A' to point 'B', but that is one of doing it.  Sir Ridely doesn't seem to be overy concerned with continuity between the films at this point, so he's probably not losing any sleep over it.  But, it would be nice to put it all together.

Burke, Carter J.

Member

3

Posted Jun-17-2017 9:41 AM

Those are all very interesting points/theories.

In regards to the cargo bay being to big to fit inside the vessel, I've been thinking:

So, the pilot's room is located at the very top of the vessel, as indicated by the dome on top of the ship and the shape of,the pilot's room with the light falling through the ceiling.

The egg chamber is located directly underneath the pilot's room. We know this, because this is where Kane enters the chamber from.

Now, as you can see in the shot above, the chamber has a slight right curve and the does a sharp left turn, as if following on into one of the protrusions or arms of the ship. This should also be the case for the other side of the chamber.

So, with a little stretch of the imagination, the chamber could potentially fit inside the ship, if we assume the vessel to be practically hollow.

I hope this makes any sense to you. Here are some pics for better understanding:

I'm really an ok guy.

Burke, Carter J.

Member

3

Posted Jun-17-2017 9:43 AM

I'm really an ok guy.

Ripleys_Ghost

Member

28

Posted Jun-17-2017 10:06 AM

I think that's a good explanation.  In the recent movies, the juggernaut has been proven to be a very large ship... 300 meters long/across... that's 1/3 of a kilometer.

 

Burke, Carter J.

Member

3

Posted Jun-17-2017 10:12 AM

@ Ripleys_Ghost

Exactly. Do you remember the shot in Alien, when Dallas, Kane and Lambert are walking up to the entrance of the derelict and we see the ship and three tiny little lights in front of it? It's huge!

I'm really an ok guy.

Kethol

Member

6

Posted Jun-17-2017 12:27 PM

Not huge enough. See below. This does not even account for the long shaft Kane travels down BEFORE he enters through the ceiling of the egg chamber. The Derelict was simply not deep enough to fit it all in. I think even Ridley acknowledged this at one point.

It's a production mistake, due the the way the script kept getting revised because of budget limitations, but it is still in the movie this way, so if they do go back to this ship in a future film, I hope they don't ignore it. 

Burke, Carter J.

Member

3

Posted Jun-17-2017 1:09 PM

@ Kethol

Yes, absolutely true. I think part of the size differences is also simply due to the egg chamber being a matt painting and them wanting to make the set look truly massive.

 

I'm really an ok guy.

SpellboundSynapses

Member

0

Posted Jun-17-2017 5:00 PM

It's indeed quite a puzzle how we'll end up at the beginning of the original Alien. Clearly, the space-jockey has to be an engineer, and since David created the xenomorph (that we know, not the hybrid shock troop that spawns from the black goo), there are only two ways for an engineer to get ahold of eggs: Either from David's lab on Paradise, or from eggs that I assume David will create on Covenant/Origae-6.

Maybe the engineers seek revenge for what David did to their people on Paradise, and decide to give humans a taste of their own medicine, but during the journey with the eggs a facehugger attacks the engineer flying the ship and they crash on LV-426.

Kethol

Member

6

Posted Jun-17-2017 5:15 PM

According to the novel, the eggs already existed. David just modified them. If that is the case, the eggs were something the Engineers had been making for a long, long time.

Nathan Adler

Member

8

Posted Jun-19-2017 1:19 AM

@Kethol and Burke, Carter J.: The size of the ship's interior could be explained by it being a tesseract (after all RS does pinch other ideas from Doctor Who such as Elizabeth Shaw;)

Kethol

Member

6

Posted Jun-19-2017 6:32 AM

It could also be explained that the interior is Bugs Bunny's magic pocket that anything can fit into :)

It's just a goof up from the film makers at the time. The egg chamber was supposed to be in a pyramid/silo thing originally. Budget issues killed that, so they relocated it inside the derelict ship and re-used the pilot room set and used a matter painting to make the room look huge.

Most people did not look that hard at details like this back then. My friends and I picked up on it easily after repeated viewings of the VHS tape when we were kids. We just assumed there was a larger part of the ship underneath the surface that we could not see. The area must have been volcanically active in the past and covered it up.

Cerulean Blue

Member

10

Posted Jun-19-2017 10:25 AM

@Kethol - 'We just assumed there was a larger part of the ship underneath the surface that we could not see.'  I agree, as I had also felt this was the only way the egg chamber could have been so large!

Burke, Carter J.

Member

3

Posted Jun-19-2017 11:13 AM

I just found something really interesting in the novelization of Covenant (may contain spoilers!):

So when David leads Oram into his lab and shows him his specimens explaining to Oram what he's been up to during the ten years, he explains that the black goo atomizes to particles when exposed to air. It then reproduces in whatever host it can find, producing more goo, which then atomizes again and so on and so on.

This happened until there where no more hosts left. Ten years on, what remained of the original black goo was something that looked like black mold contained within a paper thin membrane. David tosses one of those things to Oram, who catches it instinctively, worried about what he's just done.

David then says: "Don't worry. It's fully ossified now. Complete inert and harmless."

So that right there might be the answer as to why the Jockey in Alien was carrying all those eggs, which were created/reproduced by David, but looked to be fossilized /ossified. This could still happen within the 18 years between covenant and Alien.

What do you think?

I'm really an ok guy.

sherris

Member

1

Posted Jun-19-2017 1:14 PM

I think Kethol has a point regarding the SJ story. It may of already been told.

The LV223 outbreak / Earth attack made the craft detour or crash on the next planet.

The Eggs are no longer an issue because the novel has stated the Engineers already had eggs. 

So if there was an outbreak on LV223 AND Engineers were already studying/using the eggs then there is every possibility that this story has been told and A:A may cover other ground.

How would we feel about that?

Burke, Carter J.

Member

3

Posted Jun-19-2017 1:28 PM

I guess I can live with that. I think it would be better to maybe just leave the hole derelict story stand on it's own, without bringing it into any future installments. I'd probably just be disappointed with whatever explanation they would come up with for the Jockey.

I'm really an ok guy.

Kethol

Member

6

Posted Jun-19-2017 1:37 PM

I'm torn because I would rather they leave the exact details of the Derelict in Alien a mystery, but I would also like to see the David storyline arc come full circle.

The problem is, Covenant established that the particular breed of the xeno we see in Alien was bred by David, so if a cargo hold of eggs for that breed were on the Derelict, it ties back to David somehow.

sherris

Member

1

Posted Jun-19-2017 1:46 PM

Really good point about 1979Xeno and the links to David i overlooked that one.

I would have to rethink that theory of the story already been told now:(

Clever Kethol! 

 

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About Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant Movie

Release Date:

May 19th, 2017

Plot Synopsis:

Ridley Scott returns to the universe he created in ALIEN with ALIEN: COVENANT, the second chapter in a prequel trilogy that began with PROMETHEUS -- and connects directly to Scott’s 1979 seminal work of science fiction. Bound for a remote planet on the far side of the galaxy, the crew of the colony ship Covenant discovers what they think is an uncharted paradise, but is actually a dark, dangerous world -- whose sole inhabitant is the "synthetic" David (Michael Fassbender), survivor of the doomed Prometheus expedition.

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