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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

Alien: Covenant

The Alien: Covenant, Alien: Awakening & Prometheus Movie Community

IRaptus

Moderator

160

Posted Jun-13-2017 4:11 PM

Across a number of threads have been discussions about how and why A:C has been received with such mixed reviews by fans.

A lot it seems to come down to the division of fans and the expectations and desires for the direction of the franchise. To pinch BigDave break-down from this topic http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/45548

The division stems from

1. Alien (Giger, Eggmorph, Ridley Scott, O'Bannon script)

2. Aliens (James Cameron, action-oriented, Queen)

3. Prometheus (Engineers, Origins, Black Goo, mututions. Lindolof/Spaights script)

 

So let's see what the actual breakdown of members are here. Straight up, no judging others. Lets just see what the actual break-down is.

Yes, you have to pick just one.

 

42 Responses to Division of Fans (number crunch)

IRaptus

Jun-13-2017 4:14 PM

Myself, I am fan of the original Alien direction.

Dark and Mysterious. Brooding and Godless.  

 

joylitt

Jun-13-2017 4:17 PM

I pick the first division, but no eggmorph.

IRaptus

Jun-13-2017 4:21 PM

fair call joylitt. Thoughts on the Queen? yes/no?

 

Tdby

Jun-13-2017 4:22 PM

Fans divided because after firt two movie scenario and atmosphere of movie just ruined. It was core sci fi with first 2 movie.

With alien 3 its turned to kinda drama.

Avp series just for make money from teens.

Resurrection good try and close real alien stuff but still different. Not same at all.

Promethes, exolained engineers by wrong way. No need life creators stuff at all. Just tech advanced another race who encountered same shit was enouf.

AC tryed clear up mess after prometheus but just leaved much mire black spots and unexplained stuff like they made scenario in pub within few hours.

My opinion alien 1 and 2. Rest of them just same universe in much different ways.

joylitt

Jun-13-2017 4:24 PM

I am not against the queen, but  I would be careful not to portrait her as if she was a giant ant. A little bit of mystery is always welcome.

joylitt

Jun-13-2017 4:28 PM

I wouldn't discard the stuff from Prometheus neither, it has potential. 

IRaptus

Jun-13-2017 4:29 PM

I agree with all comments Tdby. And the mess has created these camps/division of fans. A3 follows the original direction closely imo. Resurrection is so far removed in time and direction it is its own unique little bubble. Prometheus had a vision that a lot people thoroughly enjoyed before being railroaded by Covenant. The least said about the AVPs the better lol.

That leaves us 3 camps.

 

IRaptus

Jun-13-2017 4:37 PM

joylitt agreed. exactly what they did wrong in the original AVP. Paul W.S Anderson chucked in a Queen because he thought it would be cool. She sat in a giant open chamber, full of light then ran around in the snow like a big T-rex chase scene. No mystery, suspense, horror at all. If you are going to use a Queen do it well. She is suppose to be the climax, end-game big mother, everything is f%$ked now of the aliens species. James Cameron used his Queen well. Despite being a subscriber to the eggmorph vision I can appreciate and respect that.

 

 

joylitt

Jun-13-2017 4:38 PM

But I should note I am up for innovation and expansion. Covenant for instance make the franchise seem stagnant. And the only direction it points at is the wrong direction.

Batchpool

Jun-13-2017 5:45 PM

I’m a fan of the original Alien and have been consistent in that. Aliens on the other hand I like, but my feelings towards it have varied over time like a pendulum.

Prometheus I find is as far removed from Alien as it gets. It might as well be another Sci-fi movie inspired by Giger’s art work like Species (seems to get rarely mentioned these days).  Although I like Prometheus, I found that having it marketed as an Alien prequel was misleading in some respects to some. Remove the name Peter Weyland and the Engineers juggernaut, and look at what’s left to compare with Alien.

I have found that there is something of an age factor involved, because I know younger fans of Prometheus who have never seen Alien, but have seen Covenant and enjoyed it.

BigDave

Jun-13-2017 6:16 PM

Well i dont think its as easy as those 3 groups as they can be further split up too.... and some fans like elements from different parts of each.

If i had to do a Order it would be

1) Prometheus (purely on the scope)

2) Alien as such a introduction to the very Alien World

3) Aliens.. which for most part is Popcorn flick

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-13-2017 6:20 PM

@Batchpool

Thats what i call HITTING A NAIL ON THE HEAD.

If Prometheus had a bit more Xenomorph connections then it maybe could have been a Classic Hit.

Or indeed if the Alien elements was totally moved... so same Plot only no connection to Alien Universe so no Weyland Company and no Alien Ships that look like Derelict and Space Suits that look like the Space Jockey and less Xeno looking clues.

And who knows if Prometheus may have gone down as a Classic Stand Alone Sci-Fi movie.

In either case i think the Story needed a bit more of a Tidy up though.

Some say Prometheus Jinxed the Franchise and put a Smear on it.... i would say that Prometheus Plot based in Alien Universe has Jinxed that movies potential success.

Taking out those Alien connections (Weyland, Derelict/Space Jockey) we would have had a more of a Remake of At the Mountains of Madness Movie

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

IRaptus

Jun-13-2017 7:03 PM

BigDave great points! It's hard to define the lines between the divisions as you say, some like bits and pieces from different films.

The fence-sitting in regards to Prometheus really hurt that film. I remember it was an Alien prequel at first, then it was a stand-alone film with nothing to do with Alien, then it was sort-of a prequel. I agree it jinxed itself and it had potential to lead to something great one way or the other. Covenant did not do Prometheus any justice.

Batchpool totally agree!!! I loved Aliens growing up, it was my favourite. Now however my taste has changed and I prefer A1 and A3 more. I still enjoy Aliens but as more of a popcorn flick in my favourite sci-fi universe.

 

 

Tiwaz

Jun-13-2017 7:12 PM

I can live with all three since they do not necessarily exclude each other, provided they're properly connected. Except David. He was an interesting character. Having him as the "creator" would ruin so much more than it would benefit the franchise.

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

IRaptus

Jun-13-2017 7:19 PM

Tiwaz agreed. David as the creator of the Xeno has limited the scope of the franchise to a self-righteous, jealous Android with a teenager-angry-at-my-dad /  Napoleon complex lol

 

Tiwaz

Jun-13-2017 7:28 PM

IRaptus, yep! ;)

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

ElectricAve

Jun-13-2017 8:23 PM

To the op:

I'm 1 and 3, and don't feel the need to choose between them. Taken together, they make the verse bigger, but Covenant is making it smaller. I understand what they're trying to accomplish by linking everything, but it doesn't work for me. I don't see the sense in linking Prometheus directly to Alien if the only way you can do it is by sucking all the mystery out of Alien (the better of the two = it resets everything to a lower bar). *edit big YES to the last few comments before me - u all said it much better :)

I'm open to one more sequel, but Ridley needs to start answering the questions he raised in Prometheus. No more filler material. 

   

joylitt

Jun-13-2017 8:35 PM

@ElectricAve You are right. We all need to remember that the main reason why we are still here making theories about a larger Alien universe is "Prometheus". With flaws and all, that movie kept the fanbase alive. Covenant only seem to have satisfied a few kids who cannot care less about the Alien lore.

I Moon Girl

Jun-13-2017 8:58 PM

This is tough.  I loved Alien and Prometheus.  I just wish Prometheus was more thought out and explained better.  Alien is perfect and Prometheus is not, but I LOVE how Prometheus is hardly connected to the Alien franchise at first glance, but as the story unfolds in Alien: Covenant, we see that it IS connected along with a how.  Prometheus opens the whole franchise to a COMPLETELY new story.  A nice refresher.  Still, I love the complete shock horror that made me uncontrollably scream at one part and kept me always trying to figure out WHAT THE [email protected]&* is going on!  I mean, Ash was a robot!!!!!  The facehugger hid and died!  I am left wondering if Ash was part of a secret, corporate operation! The characters were so relatable!  I am not going to go on, but the point I am making is Alien is perfect.  I want another Alien movie, but just done in a different way.  That is were Prometheus comes in, but, sadly, it is not perfect.

I guess I have to choose Alien even though Prometheus was more a much more beautiful film.  I don't like my decision, but I am still going to say Alien.  I wish Covenant had the horror Alien had in it.  That is my problem with Covenant.  There was no point where I uncontrollably screamed or wanted to leave the theater!  Not a good horror film.  Prometheus had some scary parts, but not as good as Alien. 

Okay, this post is long enough....

SpellboundSynapses

Jun-13-2017 9:22 PM

I'm going with a hybrid of Alien/Alien 3/Alien: Resurrection/Prometheus (but mostly Alien) here. Yes, I know that's 4 out of 5 films (prior to Covenant). Let me explain why:

Alien for its oppressive, Alien atmosphere. When the crew first land on LV-426, that bleak landscape with the cold sun in the distance, that's pure art right there. And then there's the space-jockey we all know, and the iconic Giger biomechanical imagery. It's also noteworthy to point out how Ash, a robot, seems to be composed of tubes and fluids rather than cold-machinery. There's an intertwining of the biological and the mechanical throughout this whole movie

Alien 3 even though the prisoners in Alien 3 are unarmed, the Xenomorph still seems vastly stronger than it was in Aliens. It's extremely fast and agile, animalistic. Most importantly though, is the touching bursting scene set to the sermon. Alien 3 might've been a mess overall, but this particular scene is definitely kino.

Alien Resurrection has in my opinion one of the most important scenes in the franchise: the scene with the failed, deformed clones. Such an absolutely stunning scene, emphasizing the duality of beauty and horror of the franchise. 

Prometheus brought with it its own innovations and religious undertones. I generally LOATHE anything to do with Ancient Aliens, but they made it work, somehow. If only that movie didn't have the retard scientists... I think overall the concept of the engineer was done well. The beginning sacrifice scene was absolutely beautiful, although I cringed at the depiction of DNA, but I don't expect 100% scientific rigour from sci-fi movies.

This is why I loved Covenant so much. It had the religious undetones, the biomechanical horrors we all love, biological experimentation and a touching birth scene. 

tl;dr You can put me on Alien but I think these three categories are too simplistic.

Ripleys_Ghost

Jun-13-2017 9:41 PM

This is a great topic.  +1 to OP.

I'm a big fan of the franchise, and I'll take anything that I can get.  I even have some of the original model kits by Halcyon, some recent toys, and I've begun sculpting some of my own favorite pieces from the movies.

Now, the original movie, "Alien" is king in my opinion.  It fires on ALL cylinders.  Overall, there is such a lonely, cold, dark and helpless atmosphere to the movie.  It's just how you'd expect a long-distance space mission to be.  You can't run from the ship that's like a tiny cork on the ocean, and nobody is coming to rescue you.

It's really a haunted house/slasher flick, but it's staged in "space".  You never really get a good look at the antagonist: the Alien itself and that makes it more terrifying and larger than life.  The World Wide Web didn't exist at the time, so you couldn't look it up.  Ash was put aboard the ship by the very people that should have been most concerned for the welfare of the crew... The Company.  Chilling stuff.

The "used", industrial look of the Nostromo/refinery, and even the realistic characters made sense.

Furthermore, the questions as to what the Derelict really was has never been satisfactorily answered, nor has the questions of who the Space Jockey was and how the eggs got on board.  It's such an enduring enigma.

I think that Alien is akin to some first record albums that are put out by music acts.  They work at their craft from their youth, into young adulthood, and they get their big chance.  Sometimes, that first effort is never bested... because they spent their whole lives planning, practicing and creating for that one big chance...

 As a final note, I'd like to say that I enjoyed Prometheus, especially the cinematography and effects.  But, it's a movie bogged down by a lot of religious mumbo-jumbo... it's as if Mel Gibson made an Alien prequel.

Falconer

Jun-13-2017 10:41 PM

Where is the Aliens love?! Colonial Marines. Her Majesty. The power-loader battle. That epic APC design. The M56 Smart-gun. All iconic elements of Aliens! 

 

EWATYAMORPH

Jun-13-2017 11:10 PM

At the moment and heading forward I'm firmly in the third camp. I am way more interested in seeing more of the Engineers and watching/reading a more in depth exploration of their story.

If RS were to introduce more Engineers, possibly some Elders and more 223 type, have them conflicting with David, brutally clashing with Xenos and have a batch of humans caught in the middle, all while offering us deeper insight into the Engineers, I think the next movie/s could have something everybody in the fanbase can find to satisfy their needs.

With all this in place, a brilliant script, a decent bunch of actors and a believable connect to the original ALIEN I think RS could score big.

Cant please everyone but I think he may get better reviews than Covenant with something like that.

Im Durp

Jun-13-2017 11:36 PM

I'd pick a combination of the first two, because those are really the only "good" movies in the alien franchise after those two it was just this desperate attempt to get back what you lost.

 

Not even against prometheus conceptwise, but the execution was poor.

IRaptus

Jun-14-2017 2:47 AM

Perhaps I should've gone with pick your least favourite. But this is good. It shows what mixed elements viewers liked or didn't like about the films.

I Moon Girl I know what you mean about Alien. That scene where they are looking for the facehugger still gives me goosebumps and im not arachnophobic or anything, it is just such a masterfully suspenseful scene. Same as Brett's death scene.

SpellboundSynapses Alien 3 is so underrated. It captures the feel and direction of the first film so well, they just made the mistake of showing the runner in full too often.  

Ripleys_Ghost brilliant post! I totally agree on your assessment of what made Alien work so well!! 

 

Ranting Xeno

Jun-14-2017 4:31 AM

Though it is like comparing an apple to an orange to a pineapple, my order would be:

1. Alien (Giger, Eggmorph, Ridley Scott, O'Bannon script)

2. Aliens (James Cameron, action-oriented, Queen)

3. Prometheus (Engineers, Origins, Black Goo, mututions)

As a psychological and suspense filled horror Alien is my top. As a balls-to-the-wall action Aliens is my top. But all things considered; I can't put Aliens above Alien...despite it being a great movie, within its genre.

Prometheus...meh...

A3 was bloody awful.

Alien Resurrection was bloody awful!

AvP & AvPR are, frankly, pish. Non-canon and not worth talking about (I'd not have bothered but someone else did lol).

SparklingAmbien

Jun-14-2017 5:20 AM

I of course loved all the Alien/Aliens/etc/etc/etc movies but the plot of Prometheus brought up the topic of their origin which i had never crossed my mind yet really interested and excited me. I was like "...what..? dude.....!" That's why i'm in here everyday... there is so much more potential heading in the Prometheus direction then concentrating on the older storylines without any cool alien/engineer history/lore stuff being revealed. however, was just thinking that Prometheus' marketing stuff shouldn't have released any pictures videos or anything else related to the Alien or derelict. i could have simply surprised everyone and sorta like a Cloverfield thang. 

MonsterZero

Jun-14-2017 5:52 AM

I'll take number 3.

Love the Xeno/MORB....but mutations and space zombies are what i'd like to see. Being the host and then turning into the space monster?! Sign me up!

The beast is cooked and if I never saw another Xeno...i'd be okay.

Darth Vader is dead...Death Star is gone.....Time for the franchise to move on.

A L I E N  I I

 

BigDave

Jun-14-2017 6:29 AM

I think in Hindsight they may have now been considering leaving the Space Jockey and Eggs a Mystery?

However RS when making plans for another movie had concluded the Xenomorph had been cooked, doing a sequel to Alien Resurrection where Xenomorphs are on the loose again is not kind of the Flick RS was maybe interested in, as he calls movies like Aliens and Alien R Shoot-em-ups.

He could have gone for a distant future or even Parallel Plot to the Timeline where another Ship/Mission uncover more Xenomorph Eggs... but this would lead to just a Re-make of Alien or Aliens.

So the only thing never covered was the Xenomorph Origins, and also the Space Jockey Origins, who was this Alien what was his Purpose, his Race and Agenda.. where was he from and where was he going...  Why that Cargo of Eggs and where did they come from.  ETC ETC.

So they chose this route.... in Hindsight yes it should have been kept a Mystery.

But we need to Remember RS considers Alien his Baby.

Due to commitments he was not able to provide direct input onto a Alien Sequel and so Cameron's Aliens was Born..  Followed by its sequels and Spin Offs (AVP)

RS never had any real input in how the Story and Xenomorph Evolved from after Alien.   And so doing a Prequel to Alien would allow RS to have his hand/say in how the Xenomorph Originated and who the Space Jockey Race was.

While its great to keep it a Mystery, i feel RS really would rather cover the ORIGINS and SPACE JOCKEY Race in a way that he was happy with, because no doubt Eventually after any number of Alien Movies and AVP Movies etc...  there would always be that MYSTERY of ALIEN

EVENTUALLY... FOX would no doubt consider and maybe even had gone the Xenomorph Origins and who the Space Jockey was and what happened on LV-426 Route.... and for RIDLEY SCOTT... he would Kick himself if FOX did this in a way that would be against what RS would have wanted, and if RS had no input then not only has he LOST how the Alien Franchise Evolved after ALIEN he would have LOST any role in how the ALIEN came to be.. and who the SPACE JOCKEY was.

And so RS would have rather Answered those Mysteries than not done so, and someone else does in a way that would make RS Turn in his GRAVE

In Hindsight Prometheus did touch upon the Space Jockey, but explored more who this Race was and their Agenda and having some Bio-Logical Experiments/Black Goo that is connected to the Xenomorph.

Rather than actually showing us more how the Xenomorph came to be, BUT THIS was down to FOX taking interest in the whole Engineer Curve-ball.

The movie did not deliver for many Fans, Answers they wanted, even though eventually after another 2 movies it no doubt would have given those Answers... In Hindsight there was no Actual Alien Monsters like in Alien....

The Hammerpedes and Trillobites was connect, the Deacon at the End... but i think Fans would have wanted to see how they would connect to the Xenomorph a bit more and even see some related Monsters killing people....  some fans Straight up wanted Xenomorphs... but i think even having something more similar killing a few crew like the Neomorphs in AC would have been something to please those fans who ultimately was disappointed with the lack of Aliens in Prometheus.

This is when we then got to the Problems with AC.... they needed to give Xenomorphs to please the fans.. so they thought....

Its all up in the AIR now to how they proceed but i wonder if we went back 5 years ago... and Prometheus was never made and RS never made a return to the Franchise..

Then down the line when he is too old to work on movies, FOX come along and Explore the Space Jockey and Eggs as being a Synthetic who Created them, and maybe also the Space Jockey or the Space Jockey is a Human.

I wonder 5 years ago if this is something that would have UPSET RS... i would have to think this was in NO-WAY his Intention and Ideas 5 or even more years ago.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Starlogger

Jun-14-2017 8:06 AM

Original "Alien" only...NO EGGMORPH (stupid concept, sorry if that steps on toes...lazy explanation to work out plot holes) EVER!

"Aliens" doesn't exist, and should never have been made.

"Prometheus" was on the right track, just didn't check all the boxes...

BUT, ALIEN is where I lie.

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