There is a certain subset of Alien fans that believe the only films that matter are Ridley Scotts aka Alien and Prometheus.Alien Covenant has obviously proved to be divisive yet again so how does Alien Covenant hold up for those of you who believe Scott's way is the only way?Did the film live up to what you expect from Ridley Scott's vision?This is just a simple question,I'm not trying to single out any one or attack any opinions.I personally enjoyed the movie but more so because I'm a fan of the franchise in general,not so much because I'm a Ridley Scott fan(which I am).I also feel what ever happens next the series needs a new director before Scott becomes like George Lucas,some one who does more harm than good to a beloved franchise.what say you guys,can Scott do no wrong?Or is it time for some one new?
Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for
keep RS.just bang him over the head with a hammer to make him see sense that he had a vision before this all started. he was suggesting a much more in depth universe in alien involving other species and their use of the eggs as told by himself multiple times before the prequel saga began so maybe a bash over the head with wake him up to the fact that he has wandered from that path and to get his a$$ back on track. tho I think covenant was rushed, with no character building with the pace of the movie off so badly, visually it was another masterpiece.
Im not fan of RS but i respect his imagination as he made big gap in my inagination lvls whem im child with his movie. Its not easy thing to create a different original universe with your imagination.
Todays sci si writers not that original mostly, they just copy few original ideas.
If FOX would hire decent scriptwriters, that's 90% of the problem, combined with the fetish FOX execs have for meddling.
*Man's giant leap was just a stumble in the dark.*
Ultimately we dont know what goes on behind the Scenes.
We have to remember a Original Idea was conceived by RS and passed onto FOX for a Alien Prequel and John Spaights came on to work on a number of drafts... which Prometheus was in part based off these ideas.
It was FOX who saw a lot of potential in the Curve-ball Plot of Alien Engineers as far as the Engineers are concerned, and decided maybe they can explore this and tone down the Xenomorphs so that they are now just experiments where we would be shown what kinds of experiments would lead to the Xenomorph and so Damien Lindeloff was brought in to tone down the actual Xenomorph Monsters and tidy up Spaights Draft to be more about the Engineers and Experiments.
Lindeloff got the Blame for Prometheus...
Then we had Prometheus 2 in the works, which would likely had explored the Engineers, David and Shaw but FOX got concerned over the interest more in Blomkamps Alien 5 and saw that Fans was disappointed that Prometheus was not about the Xenomorph, and saw the Xenomorph as being the Biggest Thing of the Franchise and in hindsight should not have toned this down... RS simply would have agreed yes in hindsight taking out the Xenomorph from a Prequel movie and not covering it enough was a major complaint.
And so John Logan and Dante Harper was brought in to practically re-write the the other drafts to tone down the Engineers and Shaw and give us aftermath movie that was to bring back in the Xenomorph but throw in a David Creation Curve-ball.
FOX who have the largest Influence, FOX control how long they wish the Movie Run Time to be, and Finance the Project as Ultimately they own the Franchise and Fund it and they want to do what makes more $$$
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
RS biggest problem for me is OVERSIGHT.... and a unwillingness to use Digital Technology for some aspects, just as in Hindsight Game of Thrones where our Engineer Ian Whyte was portrayed as the Giant
Similar Technology as used also in the LOTR/Hobbit could have gave us Engineers who were 10-12ft tall and not 7.5ft tall.
Its his oversights with the Space Jockey/Engineers that are my biggest gripe.... he has great attention to detail but then a lazy overlaps when it comes to some of the more important details.
The Alien Space Jockey appearing as 21-22ft and then 13-15ft in the same Scene due to change from Child Actors to Adults..
The way smaller Engineers in Prometheus to the even more Smaller ones in Alien Covenant.
It would not have cost much more to put more effort into the make up of the Engineers in AC, and then in the Actual Ruins Scenes have them build Taller Dead Engineer Props.. But we got Human sized Props and Not so Engineers.
Maybe there is no Oversight and indeed these beings are intended to look more Human for a Reason.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"visually it was another masterpiece"
Partially i agree.... i think RS should have been given a extra $40-50M and another 3-4 Months Production/Post Production and the Xenomorph/Neomorph Budget could have made them match the greatness of the other Scenes
I felt they was just like the Fifield from Prometheus where not much time and finances was used on them... while the Engineers, Trilobite and Hammerpedes looked the Part.
i feel a extra $20M devoted to the Neomorph/Xenomorph and more time to improve and use the Practical effects more up close would have made a big difference.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I don't see it as the writers who have made a boo boo. ridley has shown that he reads what they have then requests the changes he wants. lindelof got slammed for Prometheus which I thought was over the top as directors can take poor scripts and turn them into huge successes. I just feel the path ridley has taken is off. I def get the feeling this is not what ridley had in mind when he started out with this saga and he may live to regret the changes he has gone with. and theres no way its all down to fox. if it was me and id stated why I returned to the franchise, id have fought more to keep the story I wanted to tell alive
This is actually a pretty good discussion point. My thoughts are that there is some near-incestrous meddling by FOX Studios on storylines. They just can't leave well enough alone in their never ending pursuit of profit.
Sometimes, studios can be there own worst enemies by their constant tinkering with a storyline (to achieve a state of nirvana in fans, I guess...) and the end result is such a bad mish-mash of the original script that it becomes nearly unwatchable. Case in point, Alien Resurrection...
On the other hand, listening to RS in recent interviews makes me either think a) he is well on his way to having dementia b) he is taking a lot of opiod painkillers 3) he is jacking with fans us big time. I sincerely hope it's none of the three...
Bottom line, I don't get the sense that he is operating on all cyclinders in directing this series. Alas, he is a proud old man with a ton of credentials under his belt. However, a change of leadership may not be a bad thing...My thought on this is that FOX simply insinuating a change in director may be enough for him to pull his head out of his ass and turn this ship around.
As for the screenwriters, I do not know what to say...I swear they "just Suck"...badly at that. They can do better, I know they can. As fans we have to hold them accountable for producing a good product or else we will get more of the same. If it is the studio or RS holding a gun to their heads and making them write inane drivel, then they get a pass...
I think the Problem has been Too Many Cooks in the Kitchen.
It seems they are changing things as they go along, so this it not a Set in Stone Story but one that evolves depending on what FOX feel is going to make the fans want to see the movies more.... but sometimes changes are so drastic that they contradict what prior movies had shown.
ULTIMATELY FOX call the most of the shots, they want a movie that will make them $$$$
If the choice was to Spend $150M each on TWO movies that tie into ALIEN that would carry on from Prometheus and really please Prometheus Fanbase, and lead up to somewhat pleasing Alien Fanbase in General
But then they are movies that dont draw in the Casual Audience, or gain interest from Prometheus Doubters/Haters or Popcorn Alien Action Romp Fanboys..
FOX would be willing to gamble more to please and attract the latter.... a more Prometheus Pleasing set of movies with a combined $250M-300M Budget that may struggle to break even but adored and seen in droves by Prometheus fans and half the Alien Franchise Fanbase... is not Financially what FOX would like to see.
so they would rather cater a movie that they feel would get more General Public and Aliens Popcorn Flick Fanbase to go watch in droves and make more $$$$ in return.
Why i do worry now the sequel would be turned into some Hadleys Hope on the Covenant Flick, and introduce a Young 12 year old Ripley... into the Saga.
Marines + Ripley + maybe a Queen is something i would not put past FOX if they feel these will make the sequels Money.
Otherwise i think instead they would cut back on Budget and the next movie could suffer like how AVPR did compared to AVP.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave I think you're totally right about too much meddling. Unfortunately, RS is too willing to always "play ball" with the Studio, and he has allowed FOX too much control in the Alien Universe. He should've fought for it from the very beginning and kept it guarded and protected. I'm afraid it might be too late to save now.
I think the problem is mainly from the Alien universe is changing a lot, and not coming from a completed storyline or multi book series. LOTR for example was already written. They could lay out the story over a set number of movies, knowing what content will go into each movie and how they will pace/space them and where the ending will be. With the Alien franchise, each movie they make is kind of going to be a wild card. There is no full storyline laid out, it's harder to foresee if fans and the audience as a whole will be happy with the number of sequels/prequels, their placement, and content.
the issue I have with RS is that even just after alien was released he had his thoughts on who/what the space jockey was and that the eggs onboard were a weapon. then he returned to the universe only to answer the questions no other director had addressed and I was so excited to see what he brought to the screen. the possibilities were endless. Prometheus, which I really like, was a great opening to give us the introduction to the engineers. he gave us the identity to the space jockey and teased the connection to the xeno/eggs with the mural. I def think RS got to start the way he wanted but with fan reaction, fox have stepped in. covenant is the result of fan reaction and its what those who moaned n bitched deserved. no engineers, no hint to what happened on lv223, no scent of a civil war etc etc etc...... saying this RS has dropped the ball. AC was poor. id say his worst film and I think more people r turning to Prometheus with more respect than before and realising WE the fans may have dumped on Prometheus too heavily. yes it had holes but even those who pick holes in movies now may realise it was just the first instalment in a saga and those holes couldv been filled had ridley just been allowed to go the way he wanted. its not too late, yet but if the next instalment doesn't rise to the occasion then I think the whole saga will have been a waste of time and it wouldv been better left alone for both RS and the original films sake
What evidence is there that Fox meddled with anything? Everything Ridley has said indicated that HE is the one who decided to change direction and give us a movie with more of the "cooked" aliens and less of the Engineer story line he already had going. He said he did this specifically because of the reaction from some fans after Prometheus. He has never once said that Fox told him to do or change anything in any interview I have read.
I think at this stage in Ridley's career he does whatever he wants. His only issues with a studio would be over budget.
iwould say its a safe bet to assume fox had a huge say in how AC turned out after the reaction to prometheus
How is that a safe bet? Ridley has huge clout with studios, has final cut on his films, and pretty much does what he wants.
even the best directors can be told which direction the studio wants them to go in. its not his money and they pay the wages. if ridley has been told a direction and he wouldn't get the budget if he didn't follow suit then he wouldn't get to make a movie. its pretty simple and straight forward. not hard to understand
@ali81 - Scott Free Productions and Ridley Scott have producing credit. A studio is not the only financial entity for a film.
On to the main topic -
While Covenant was in post-production, Scott was in pre-production for "All The Money in The World," starring Kevin Spacey and Mark Whalberg. And after his Spacey/Whalberg movie wraps up, Scott moves right into "Battle of Britain," for FOX. Scott is all over the place, and due to his scattered focus, the poor quality CGI of the Xeno in Covenant was ignored, at least it seems that way. The CGI of the Xeno should have been on a WETA/ILM level of quality, but it wasn't, and I don't know who is to blame for the clunky script, which is a whole other issue.
Where this all leads to, who knows. I am enjoying ADF's Covenant novel, and the prequel story does sound exciting, and I did enjoy watching Covenant despite its shortcomings.
I am in STRONG support of Nacho Vigalondo taking over as the new director.
that is true but fox own the rights and the majority of the funding comes from them
Plus the other producers involved.
We don't know the exact dollar amount that FOX had to pay out. Fox's biggest cost was probably from marketing the film.
at the end of the day its their ball, no one elses. if they don't feel like playing then theres no movie. they set budget and if they decide they want ridley to go in a different direction then he either goes with it or he leaves the project. I don't get whats so hard to understand about the fact that fox r the ones in control. its not rocket science after all just common sense that if the studio feel that the sequel may not get as many bums on seats as theyd like due to the reaction from Prometheus then they would most likely have a bigger say in how the next instalment goes. as ridley says, the xeno had been done to death and wasn't really looking to go back down that route but AC def doesn't fit that statement which leads me to believe that fox have had a large say on the direction of AC
PROMETHEUS script writer John Spaights divulged that it was the Fox execs who decided to dial back on the Alien aspects and focus on the Engineers, during production, not Ridley Scott.
I am assuming that COVENANT's original story suffered much the same fate and the change was not all down to Ridley reading fans negative comments about Prometheus. What can he say? He can hardly call them out if he wants to continue with the franchise!
Before making a final judgement, I think we should wait until we have all the facts.
However, there's no question that something is wrong and Ridley is the one who is in the firing line!
To me Ridley will always be a special, visionary, auteur, European director who has had to compromise in order to work within the confines and restrictions of the Hollyweird system. :(
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
whether the execs got involved or not, ridley accepted and went ahead with the project. for me he didn't give much character building and the pace of the film was off which is unlike him.
I'm in for RS, at least he would not bring up again the alien queen. If the eggs are bioweapons no giant ant queen can make them. I believe that was a wrong idea of JC. Better leave the source of eggs unexplained than to explain it in such a silly way. I do believe the only valid films of the franchise are RS's. I had always big difficulties trying to watch Aliens, being so praised by fans and critics, but seeing Newt screaming, the Marines space corps and that silly alien queen letting go Ripley's foot in the end, that's too much to accept. I prefer the dumb crew of Prometheus, even the inmates from Alien3. My conclusion, RS is the one who created the alien universe, the rest is just debris orbiting his creation.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
I'd vote for Ridley. I want to see a direct prequel to Alien by him, and I'd like to see his Alien 2 (without Ripley), that would be fantastic.
And I think BigDave mentioned something important: Scott should have been given more money and time.
Sir Ridley will lead us all out of this dilemma & I feel he has another huge film, or three, in him! I think at this point he absolutely must have a huge film, or three in him, in order to save the franchise? I want the next two or three films to be great, I really do, but they must be sure to address the lingering questions that have been created by Prometheus & Alien-Covenant. I am hoping to not have wasted my energy here only to see another movie that hints at these big ideas with no explanations!
After Prometheus I decided I needed to stop getting hyped for movies and it worked, because of that I was able to enjoy Alien:Covenant. At this point I expect nothing from the franchise and i'll just see what comes next.
Lilly, that's a clever approach, beyond doubt - at the same time I think the months to come will serve as the most important period for the franchise/for Scott to receive our support and for the fans to express their expectations, ideas, dreams, etc...
I think The Predator is the one to watch....
It will be interesting to see what Story and Budget this got and how well this does, so we can gauge if FOX are backing Predator Franchise more than the Alien one.. If the Budget for The Predator is not great and it does not do well.
I think its a sign that FOX does not invest in its TWO Big Sci-Fi Hitters as well as they should be... they seemed to have lost Faith in the Franchises if you ask me.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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