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About those ships

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BlackGooDrinker

Jun-03-2017 4:31 PM

So in Prometheus we see the teardrop ship take off. We have not seen it since. We know the Engineers pilot Juggernaut type spacecrafts. So I am assuming the teardrop ship belongs to the elders that we have yet to see (deleted scenes dont count). In Covenant the hall of heads possibly depicted these elders.

Also in Covenant we see a bigger juggernaut looking craft where the smaller Juggernaut docks. This ship is nowhere to be found afterwards just as the teardrop ship from prometheus.

What do you guys think about what those ships? Who pilots them? What are there purpose? Will they come back?

Is there an agenda the mods are not telling us about? ;)

20 Responses to About those ships

I Raptus

Jun-03-2017 5:11 PM

The more i think about it, the more i think the reason A:C tied up the Engineer parts so quick is because FOX demanded an Alien-heavy film to appease the whingers. So, they skipped forward a film. Alien: Awakening is hopefully the missing link for the engineer story.

Ridley stated A:C was the first of a trilogy sequel to Prometheus.

Perhaps we got the 2nd film in the trilogy. Awakening will answer the Engineers, Teardrop ship, Scorpion ship and Deacon questions, and the third film will bridge to ALIEN. We'll end up with a non-linear sequel release.

It's probably wishful thinking on my part though lol

AdamPD

Jun-03-2017 5:51 PM

I really do hope they don't skip over the Engineers

They were hinted at in Prometheus, we even got to meet a live one! But all we got out of him was a few grunts and angry glares and that was about it, which was so disappointing.

If they'd not cut the speaking scene, it would've made that film a lot better imo.

 

joylitt

Jun-03-2017 5:58 PM

I guess you see those round ships up in the sky and you say "yay we are being seeded today!" But you see the croissant shaped ones and you are like: "bummer! we are being erased from the universe today"

sherris

Jun-04-2017 4:16 AM

Both ships were fantastic additions to the franchise.   It seemed to open up the universe, we can only dream they will be back.

The Teardrop is my favourite of the two, the elders seem to have more advanced tech.

My theory is the elders created the engineers 223 as organic clones.

The Elders keep the more advanced tech to themselves incase of a war i would say.  Possibly with the engineers 223 who got sick of giving their lives for creation.

I love this part of the universe and was crushed with a:c lack of reveals. But i refuse to give up hope....

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

Lone

Jun-04-2017 4:28 AM

I'm with you sherris ;)

In the past, I made a couple of topics about those ships!

Let us hope IRaptus is correct. I do recall Ridley stating that Awakening was going to sit in-between Prometheus and Covenant.

Some people thought he had muddled his answer, but Katherine Waterston broke him off, saying that he was giving away too much! 

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

sherris

Jun-04-2017 5:02 AM

Hi Lone !!  

Are you a fan of the mythology behind the Engineers then?

Its currently (and has been since 2012) my favourite part of the whole franchise.  The possibilities are endless and even though we have had to debate with very little to go on, its still enjoyable.

The Elders and The fresco with the event which shows an Engineer and a Bird Faced creature are amazing to me. Even if we end up that it was just marketing and nothing to do with the franchise.  We shall see....

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

Lone

Jun-04-2017 5:15 AM

I am indeed sherris! :)

There is such potential there. 

Prometheus was filled with Giger riffs, some may have been no more than reference or reverence, but my God it was beautiful to see them!

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

Lone

Jun-04-2017 5:21 AM

For me, PROMETHEUS whilst not quite perfect, was a rich and engrossing experience. 

Five+ years later we are still discussing it!

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

sherris

Jun-04-2017 6:09 AM

Yes. Ive not known a film do that to me for a long long time.  

It had so many flaws but the expanding universe was so appealing to me.

I dont think Prometheus fans love it for the film itself. For me, its more about the mythology and the potential it opened in a universe i love.

Yes some supposedly clever people, scientists, make silly decisions in Prometheus and plenty more you could mention. However it didnt matter because what was on offer was mesmerising.

New beings, Engineers 223, The Elders, their Teardrop, The mural, Fresco and all of this in a Universe i adore.

I put the films dubious moments to one side for the greater good. because what was on offer was something more than i could of hoped for.

We were heading in the right direction i thought.

Shame i have to end this by saying a:c arrived and gave us little.

As i said though, i refuse to accept that this part of the franchise is over. If theres another film made, then thats another chance.

One worth taking(?)

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

Capt Torgo

Jun-04-2017 10:35 AM

Once again blaming the bug fans for the present abomination, real nice. How are you going to blame the general public for not supporting Ridleys pretentious robot show where everything is all about David now? The buck stops with Ridley since he is the story teller but keep blaming folks/fans that wanted something more. As I have said before I think people just wanted fleshed out smart characters in this universe but apparently the A5 voices made a ruckus but I don't blame them at all ever in a million year are they at fault. As far the ships, who knows. One would think they are on other planets way out there deep in some galaxy. Btw we still got dumb characters so not sure this film was ever gonna do well/mean something deeper than the androids. Just look at all the "super expensive" Walter viral videos, that had to take away budget and time from making covvy better on screen

sherris

Jun-04-2017 11:27 AM

I think there were a lot of poor decisions made during the time from Prometheus release to a:c release.

The script changes were massive to me

Going from the building blocks of Prometheus to the story of a:c is such a strange situation. P was obviously the start of something greater, then a:c arrives and might as well just be a stand alone action flick like thousands of others.

The inconsistencies and the politics were always going to hurt the film although with a few more reveals and both sets of Alien "fans" would of been happy.

The P haters got their action flick and the P fans got some answers. Win Win.

All the negative reviews (mainly) point to the lack of continuity and answers. Both solved with small dialogue.

To put in the work and make the film then to not include some reveals was senseless. Fox deserve a flop. Shame we deserve more :(

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

Capt Torgo

Jun-04-2017 12:20 PM

Sherris I agree. I'll learn to like Covenant it's just emotions are raw right now. I think Ridley gave it a shot but...he misread some tea leaves about David= he was really liked in Prometheus cause he was almost the only character that was fleshed out where as Noomi and even Waterston maybe never get that love cause their characters/dialogue were kinda lame in the overall story arc. And David was also reduced to semi villain which was more likeable vs now he's straight psycho and some don't find that too appealing. Anyways, lol, back to your great points on politics etc.......I just think Ridley is so deep in meddling with the writers etc that even if a character is written as a savvy astronaut , Ridley then has to reduce the amount of dialogue which then shows them to be dumb. Like all Millburn had to say to Fifield was "it can't hurt my suit". Boom , no problems. Unfortunately Mr Scott just can't see these fine details cause he's focused on the awesome shots he gets. Plus who is gonna say no to Ridley? ; Certainly not the editor, actor or writer. Although I think Lindelhof may have pushed back some but it is what is. What gets me is the focus on BladeRunner at the expense of the rest of the characters and story telling. But yeah, I think a semi perfect "successful ' merging of Prometheus 2 and adding Xenomorphs could have happened all while having intelligent characters who are still "1d meat bags" creating a coherent fun romp wether it was fast or a slow burner. I just feel now that Ridley has no intention of building a coalition of peers for equal input to create some kind of hybrid magic of A1+A2 with Shaw and Engineers. Like Michelle said you have to have a solid foundation to build on for Awakenings/covvy2. I certainly dont mind the Last Supper or The Crossing being like companion pieces not in the film but helping build on the side. What is all that stuff about Walter meant to build too? Is he gonna be the jockey on 426? It's just too much unlikable robot now with little tension. If one saw the trailers you basically saw the film, wow. Sherris that small dialogue you and many others desire is a bridge too far. Always gonna appreciate Sir Ridley but there is a reason there's only a few humanoids like James Cameron with the remarkable talent to write and direct an epically successful film catalog.

BigDave

Jun-04-2017 6:37 PM

@Capt Torgo

"Like all Millburn had to say to Fifield was "it can't hurt my suit". Boom , no problems"

The Drafts actually did explain exactly this...  it also explained why they Got Lost etc too... Sadly AC is the same with the Novel that has explanations for the Silly/Dumb ish moments. I guess they just cant fit everything from a Novel/Draft into a Movie and they (FOX) seem to set a Certain Run time for a Movie and so not everything from the Drafts gets shot.

As far as the ALIENS Fanboys... there are a number of different Aliens fans, and we cant paint them all with the same Brush... when i saw AC i heard some fans asking "where is Ripley" and "so where was the Queen" The Franchise has different Fanbase views.. some Alien Fans find Camerons Aliens a Stain to RS Original.. some think Aliens was a good Sequel... some Loved Aliens more than Alien...

I think the Problem with AC was that FOX/RS had seen a lot of interest in Alien 5, and looking back at Prometheus maybe they felt in hindsight not showing the Xenomorph or similar and not having more clear connections to the Origins was a mistake.  There was a more Alieny Movie in Spaights Alien Engineers.

FOX however had seen the Beast as Cooked and RS to a degree too, no one ever covered who the Space Jockey was.. and it was not Rocket Science from the Franchise that the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon created and used by this Space Jockey Race.

So with the background story of these Space Jockey being Giant Humanoid who Mankinds Mythos and Religions was based off, and that the Xenomorph was a experiment they had conducted to use as Bio-Weapons..

FOX felt that the Space Jockey Curve-ball was interesting, and they got Lindeloff in to tone down the Xenomorphs by taking them out and to expand upon related Experiments and so the Scarabs became Goo sadly the clues was too vague... and it lacked any real Alien Feel... not like Alien Covenant with the Neomorph attacks..

FOX changed that idea to get rid of the Xenomorph.. they wanted to run with these Engineers and those experiments and how it expanded the universe.

News the Next movie would further go away from the Xenomorph and cover the Engineers Agenda, and Davids Agenda ... this was a disappointing route to be taken by a number of Fans who was expecting a Straight Up Answer to the Xenomorph and while some could pass by Prometheus, no way was they happy that a Sequel would still not cover this and so concerns we would not see no Eggs, and Face Huggers or Xenomorphs and see them killing people/Engineers....

Alien 5 offered a way to bring back Ripley, Newt and Hicks.. the Xenomorph and Queen and a Engineer Ship and Technology... it would explore different Face Huggers too, and even show some Human Mutations/Egg Morph... it seemed a Majority of Fans seemed to be more interested in Alien 5, than the Prometheus 2 that would not Answer Alien or the Xenomorph (but a 3rd movie would have gave more clues).

And so FOX felt that Alien 5 was getting more interest than Prometheus 2 and so they decided they had to bring the Xenomorph back and give us answers.

FOX Ultimately have the Final Say... RS has influence but he has to go with what FOX want and try and make his own stamp on it as much as he can..

For the Most Part if you took every Alien, Aliens and Prometheus Fans and the can we say Fanboys who loved the Xenomorph in action so much that a movie with them is something they look forwards to even AVP movies..  not that these Fans are bad... certainly the Comics and Games are great.. Facing the Xenomorph or being the Xenomorph is interesting.

I would say if you took every one of these fanbases, as far as Fans who have Seen Every Movie at least Once, and have a Favorite or Two they watch over and over... then ask how they feel and rate the Franchise.

You will find that Prometheus does not sit to well, with all its themes.. it got away from what a Majority of Fanbase thinks the Franchise is About...

XENOMORPH + RIPLEY

Prometheus was a Space Jockey Story not a ALIEN one but it would hint at the Xenomorph... Sadly a lot of Fans expected that a Alien Prequel has to be about the ALIEN.

This is what they tried to do with AC... but with a new Curve-ball... because well RS and FOX felt David was a interesting Character and ARC, the ONE thing to Salvage from Prometheus that most Fans had no Problem with...

The Thing to Remember is it appears earlier Drafts however had David RE-CREATE and EVOLVE the Xenomorph.. NOT CREATE IT.

Some Creative Decision was taken to now have David be the Creator, but who that is? is unknown... its either FOX or RS.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-04-2017 6:48 PM

@Sherris

"I dont think Prometheus fans love it for the film itself. For me, its more about the mythology and the potential it opened in a universe i love."

Same here... the scope was amazing.. but its a bit of a Poisoned Chalice, Tricky to do this Justice with such a Big Bold Reveal. I think its these themes that you mention as to why FOX had Spaights Alien Engineers tone down the Xenomorph because they saw the Engineers as a Bigger Picture that had never been covered before, while the Alien had been done over and over, even cooked in the AVP movies.

"The P haters got their action flick and the P fans got some answers. Win Win."

I think that was the idea.... but for some Alien Franchise Fans the Prometheus/David connections was too much, the Trailers had covered near enough all the Alien parts.. especially all the Features/Interviews and TV Spots ... the only things not covered was the Start of the Movie (Cause for the Ships Sails to be Damaged) and the End of the Movie Twist.... and the only other parts not covered are about David and how Prometheus connects.

This would disappoint some fans...

But for Prometheus Fans it seemed not enough and a bit contradiction to Prometheus, and it appeared they was trying to just brush the whole Dr Shaw, Engineers and Black Goo under the carpet in a lazy way.... so Prometheus Fans got disappointed.

Aliens Fans felt this movie was advertised as a ALIEN movie, some would have welcomed the Neomorphs but i feel they was expecting more Action, more Xenomorphs and sadly not much time was devoted to them or the Neomorphs.. this movie sat between a Alien 3 and Alien R as far as Aliens vs Humans.

Alien fans was expecting something like the original in parts.. and a Horror Flick... but what they got was a Space Slasher. That did not Scare the S%£"^ out of us.

some Fans liked the movie more than others, and Fans who in general Love the Alien Xenomorph found it pretty decent, but then some of these like Alien R and AVP movies for the Action Scenes... but maybe not the Plot/Stories.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-04-2017 7:33 PM

Back to the OT

Indeed the Pebble Ship was interesting, this scene was showing that a Ship dropped off a Engineer to Sacrifice himself to create Life... for which purpose who knows... but it was for some greater purpose of the Elders..

The Elders was deleted scene, but AC we have the Hall of Heads which look like Elders that RS had said are Superior Beings, Wise Men and the Apostles.... and someone from Production called them the Hierarchy.

So we can assume the Hall of Heads was a tribute/worship to beings who are higher than those Humanoids on Paradise, be they Engineers or not.

We dont know how old the Sacrificial Scene was... It was intended to be Hundreds of Millions of years ago, or even Billions... but then flaws in Prometheus showed Plant Life and so it was after the Earth had Life on it in some form.. (Basic Single Celled)  Ridley Scott said it did not have to be Earth.

He even said the Scene is like when Ancient Mayan/Inca Tribes would choose a Sacrifice who would be treated as a Prince for a Year and then Sacrificed to the GODS for the Greater Good of the Tribe be it better Harvest etc.

The Scene even looked a bit like the Location of Paradise.

Now back to AC, we see the Hanger is the right size for the Juggernaught but it appears to Small for the Scorpion Ship and the Hanger has around it Statues that are like the Buddha Offering Statues.

I assume that these beings on Paradise, or in the Ancient past when they was Proper Engineers are maybe Ritually Collected from Paradise for the purpose of Sacrifice and thus Paradise is where the Sacrificial Engineer was taken from... there whole Culture is committed to Sacrifice... and doing so is a great Honor as it leaves them a Legacy... their Body will Create Life.

If it is not this... then the Sacrificial Scene happened on Paradise that leads to those Humanoids and they are in-turn used for Future Sacrifices to Seed Worlds... Or the Original Engineers Rebelled against this Purpose and was replaced by those beings on Paradise.

Maybe the Engineers was the Watchers over these beings on Paradise?

I question why Paradise would be the only place such a Ancient Race would come from, and then have them all assembled in on Location, with little Advanced Technology apart from a Hanger that accepts Juggernaught Ships.  And a Larger Docking Ship that floats above the City.

To me either the Elders or Original Engineers Watch over these Humanoids/Engineers on Paradise from the Scorpion Ship.

I would go further to say its logical that as time progressed they found better ways to Seed Worlds... why Drop off a Engineer and have him Sacrifice himself?

What if they had evolved a better way... and Sacrifice Engineers and collect the Resulting Material combined with a Catalyst for more Rapid Evolution and Store the Two components into Urns...

Engineers/Humanoids would Sacrifice themselves to create the Material that goes into the Urns and then these Ships (Juggernauts) leave Paradise and Seed Worlds via dropping the Urns of Engineers/Humanoid DNA instead of dropping off Engineers to be Sacrificed as in Prometheus.

A Logical Evolution? Better Seeding method.

And would explain why those beings was gathering around welcoming that Ship back and not having any fear.... Because they felt their GODs/Hierarchy had came back to select Sacrifices again.

This covers any Plot Holes..

The LV-223 Engineers are a Rebellious Faction who opposed this Purpose they was created for... and they had used the Juggernauts and Sacrificial Goo on something related to the Xenomorph or they had been punished by Xenomorph Origins for maybe either Sub-creating Mankind, or Interfering in Mankinds Development or even trying to act as the GODS over Mankind.

Paradise is thus not the Engineers or their Hierarchy Home-world it is the Place they seeded Humanity Origins, from where they then further collect Sacrifices to Seed the Galaxy.

The Engineers Navigation has Charts/Maps to other Galaxies and so why if they cant travel that far... so they can travel beyond our Galaxy... beyond the 39LY to Earth from LV-223... why the nearest Galaxy to ours is 2.5 Millions Light Years away... so vastly further than LV-223 and Paradise.

Therefor my interpretation is that the Hiearchy at the very least Span Galaxies... and Paradise is just a Starting point for Creation... where they take Sacrifices to Seed Worlds and then when they Seed Worlds they maybe set up individual Outposts near by to Watch over these Worlds and to take their Creations from these Worlds to the nearest Outpost to Evolve and upgrade and when they are pleased with the Results they then Seed them back to those Worlds/Garden

Thus LV-223 is a Nursery/Greenhouse where they Evolve us, and then drop us back down, and watch over us and then repeat...

Hence LV-223 was Terra-formed so Mankind could survive in those Outposts... as the LV-223 Engineers could survive outside.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

sherris

Jun-05-2017 5:31 AM

@CaptTorgo - 

Your Milburn/Fifield example is exactly what I mean, regarding the small dialogue nuggets that when included can transform the outlook of a film.

"It cant get in my suit" - Amazing and simple

Such a shame RS does not feel the need to have these peers you mention around him to guide him in these vague areas.

We would then have a beautiful film - RS its a given

That ALSO makes sense and gives credibility to both the scene and the franchise. I can only assume RS doesnt think he needs it or thinks he knows better.

Heres to hope!!!

@BigDave

I really enjoy reading your take on the Mythology, it differs slightly from mine although you always include possibilities depending on various outcomes to theories that we lack evidence on.  Everything is always well thought out and im glad we can still find it in us to keep debating and theorising

Do we think there will be a return of these beings, ships, etc.. or will we have to look back to the other parts of the Franchise to debate?

Everyone (most)is still a little flat or in shock from a:c im sure things will move on soon enough.

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

BlackGooDrinker

Jun-07-2017 9:44 AM

Another question I had was:

How was fast are the juggernaut ships?

In prometheus we see the engineers have a need for cryopods. That means if they do transverse galaxies it would take a very long time. Yet, i dont recall seeing any cryopods on the derelict in alien?

 

thoughts?

Is there an agenda the mods are not telling us about? ;)

BlackGooDrinker

Jun-10-2017 10:11 AM

Thats a large stretch. I think they are completely different

Is there an agenda the mods are not telling us about? ;)

Tom

Jun-11-2017 6:56 PM

The Engineers are all the same I guess, just separated by thousands of years from each other. Like humanity on earth, there was ancient Egypt, then a couple of thousand of years there was Ancient Rome, then a couple of thousand years there was astronauts. Civilizations rise and fall, and ancient Egypt was probably Amir more advanced than us today in a lot of ways we don't even know about. That's what I think they are going for with what they've done to the Engineers. They are as of A:C time, a civilization less advanced than they once were. Imagine if we as humans had spaceships on mars or something, then here on earth a nuclear way occured and 2000 years elapsed, then out of the blue, one of our ancient ships came back to earth. I think that's the idea they were trying to make, but it kind of sucked because anyone who liked the movie because of the Engineers got boned by that concept. 

http://www.bigpicturesmallworld.com/funstuff/images/timeline4_sm.gif

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