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Did the Engineers create dinosaurs also - or just modern mammals?

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Wonder Boy

May-14-2017 12:25 PM

Something that has always bugged me. 

20 Responses to Did the Engineers create dinosaurs also - or just modern mammals?

Phallic Jaw

May-14-2017 1:39 PM

I think just humans.  Unless you are a bible nut (no offense to Bible Nuts, i promise!) who thinks the Earth is only a few thousand years old then no, it is unlikely Engineers created dinosaurs that were around millions (or billions?) of years ago.  Just my opinion though.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.  I watched Androids blow and finger each other's flutes.

Wonder Boy

May-14-2017 1:59 PM

So our deep DNA relationship to our ape cousins is just a coincidence? 

Phallic Jaw

May-14-2017 2:08 PM

Good question Wonder Boy.  Maybe Engineer's DNA could create apes and humans but nothing else (apes and humans are the closest looking animals to an Engineer).  Or maybe the Engineers DID create ALL life (including dinosaurs), who knows?  I think I do remember  reading that one draft of the script had the DNA forming in the water and cells splitting (as we see in the movie) but then a lizard/eel-type creature emerging from the water onto land like in that Fatboy Slim music video.  I forgot the reason why that scene was dropped, if a reason was even given in the article I read. 

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.  I watched Androids blow and finger each other's flutes.

Wonder Boy

May-14-2017 2:45 PM

Indeed. Put simply - there is no logical way we can share exact DNA with these Engineers and still believe in Darwin's theories of evolution and all the solid science which supports that.

The constant hints to Christmas during Prometheus and unsubtle nudges towards the idea Jesus was an Engineer (ship was primed to wipe out earth 2000 years in the past before the pathogen leaked) - this all points to the severely poor story telling techniques of Damon Lindelof (who also wrote Lost). What Lindelof constantly does is write himself into blind corners which he can't escape from without a Deus Ex Machina device. Prometheus's beginning and hints that the engineers were spawning life on earth can never make sense. On the plus - Lindelof was not asked to return for Alien Covenant - so it looks like the producers learnt from the mistake of letting their very own malfunctioning David compose a story. 

 

 

Stan Winston (deceased)

May-14-2017 2:46 PM

You have to remember that Prometheus is explicitly challenging evolution by means of natural selection.

SHAW: We call them Engineers.

FIFIELD: Engineers? You mind telling us what they engineered?

SHAW: They engineered us

FIFIELD: Bullshit.

MILLBURN: Okay, so uh, do you have anything to back that up? I mean, look, if you’re willing to discount three centuries of Darwinism, that’s woo! But how do you know? Hmm?

SHAW: I don’t. But it’s what I choose to believe.

Wonder Boy

May-14-2017 2:50 PM

Prometheus is also challenging the Earth's timeline. Science indicates life on earth began 3.8 billion years ago. Even if that was an Engineer - there is no way that would lead our DNA matching with their own. Again - I feel this massive mistake was made by Damon Lindelof who often writes himself into ridiculously juvenile blind alleys. 

Batchpool

May-14-2017 3:28 PM

“Put simply - there is no logical way we can share exact DNA with these Engineers and still believe in Darwin's theories of evolution and all the solid science which supports that.”

Ridley had previously stated that he believed the Engineers had visited Earth at different times to tinker with the evolutionary process.

Ridley Scott takes on Intelligent Design – and the Cambrian Explosion

 

Stan Winston (deceased)

May-14-2017 3:31 PM

Yes, Lindelhof's an idiot, but that can't be helped. The best science fiction picks up from where science fact left off -- rather than try to re-write known science.

It would have been better for Prometheus to imply that perhaps the engineers had exactly the same DNA/RNA structure and leave it at that.

Blackwinter-witch

May-14-2017 4:37 PM

Well, the Engineers didn't create Humanity as we've learned from interviews with R. Scott.

However, if they've been 'adjusting' our DNA over time then yeah, then there's congruency between our DNA and that of an Engineer.

We also know there's some Higher Powers above the Engineers they presumably serve, which created us. They're the ones calling the shots.

The opening scene in PROMETHEUS was not specifically stated as Earth and most likely wasn't.

 

*Man's giant leap was just a stumble in the dark.*

K-Theory

May-14-2017 4:39 PM

They would have had to create ALL life on Earth if we are to be so closely related to them. Of course, it is implied that the Engineer's sacrifice at the beginning of the movie represented the first life on Earth (replicating cells). Anything and everything that descended from that was therefore related to the Engineers. 

BigDave

May-14-2017 5:24 PM

@Batchpool

Indeed i mentioned this to a New Member asking Questions about Prometheus the other day...  Ridley confirmed they had came back over and over to Evolve us Genetically and Technologically.

Spaights Draft showed this due to Watts and Holloways findings on how in this draft... Genetic Changes happened every so many thousands of years that coincided with these Engineer Visitations

@Phallic Jaw

Concept works on Lindeloffs Draft did indeed show early stages of Evolution, with Amphibians    Here are the Story Boards

Spaights Draft showed a Direct Sacrificial DNA of the Engineer infects a Primate to hint at Human Origins... Engineer DNA + Primate = Humans .. but alas as with other things in Spaights Draft there are Flaws and Plot Holes (why are there no V Movie Reptilian Humanoids, or Wolf Men etc...) unless the Sacrificial Aftermath (infected Scarabs) only went so far and only infected by chance Primates... but the scene description makes this flawed. Unless the Sacrificial (Scarabs) are programed to only infect the Primates.

PROMETHEUS... actually shows us the Sacrificial Scene is a event that actually kick starts Evolution of complex Cells as opposed to Life in General, The Sacrifice is a Catalyst and not the Beginning of Creation.  Evidence for this is the Plant Life.

Ridley dis say in one interview that Batchpool linked the event was the Cambrian period but i see evidence to suggest it logically could be earlier like during or at the end of the Paleoproterozoic Era

so when single celled basic Life, Evolved to complex multiple celled due to the Engineers Sacrifice... However as Ridley said the Cambrian Era that could well be correct as this Era was when we saw the biggest spike in a short span of time of Evolution its a Era that does conflict a bit with Darwinism and indeed thus why Ridley Scott Proposes that somehow maybe something helped to Push Evolution at this time along.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-14-2017 5:51 PM

I think we do also need to remember its Science Fiction, and we cant really be picking to many holes at a small scale...

Every Alien Fan has not Problem with a Alien Life-form that has Acid Blood.

"Well, the Engineers didn't create Humanity as we've learned from interviews with R. Scott."

Interesting theory... but Ridley Scott as far as i know has never came out and said this, it contradicts what he said prior... i think this comes from his comments about the Hall of Heads, which was very ambiguous in a way and maybe easy to miss-quote him.

I think this comment was aimed at the Engineers creating the Xenomorph, but then he pointed out those guys as in the Big Heads, Superior beings so if we assume they are Engineers then yes they never created the Xenomorph.. but as we find out David seems to do so.

For us to have a Genetic Match (i know thats not 100% possible) but it showed us we are connected, we are closer to the Engineers than we are to Primates... that was the whole Set Up.

This does not indeed mean we was created from them, as indeed the Sacrificial Scene could have been on Paradise, and Mankind is just a Evolutionary Process from this... Regardless they Predate us Genetically.

I think it depends how we read into Ridleys Comments and we need to remember he can slip up quite a lot and his comments are baffling to be honest as they can set up one thing and lead to the next.

We’ve reinvented the idea of Alien, which is that Covenant gets us a step closer to who and why was this thing designed to make human beings. And if you think it’s them,” Scott said, gesturing to the monolithic figures of the Engineers surrounding us, “you’re dead wrong.” 

So this can be interpreted and some have done so, to suggest the Engineers did not create Mankind or Xenomorphs... its a miss-quote if you ask me.

Let me show how this can happen if i break this down.

We’ve reinvented the idea of Alien, which is that Covenant gets us a step closer to who and why was this thing designed to make human beings"

Thing as in the Xenomorph? So the Xenomorph is designed to make Human beings?

For Covenant to take us a step closer could be that a actual event/scene in this movie shows what this quote is on about.. now the movie does not show us the creation of Mankind.

Only the Xenomorph...

so i think what Ridley meant was.

We’ve reinvented the idea of Alien, which is that Covenant gets us a step closer to who and why was this thing (Black Goo) designed to make Xenomorphs"

But then it depends if we take Ridleys Comments at Face Value and assume he makes no mistakes, so i cant say my interpretation is wrong... so the debate about Engineers not creating us could indeed apply.. but something that Created the Engineers must have thus created us then, or a Curve-ball ... we created them?

Here is a earlier interview that can be miss-quoted or understood

"They’re going to go to the planet where the engineers came from, and come across the evolving creature that they had made. Why did they make it? Why would they make such a terrifying beast? It felt bio-mechanoid, it felt like a weapon. And so the movie will explain that, and reintroduce the alien back into it."

This seems to imply the Engineers Created it, because THEY (Covenant Crew) arrive where there is already a Evolving creature, but then it could mean They as in David and Shaw, but then this kind of dont make sense.. Unless the They’re going to go to is referenced to Shaw and David but then this contradicts with and come across the evolving creature that they had made how if they had come across it then it already exists

So with Ridley Scott sometimes his interviews can come across a bit hard to figure out and only when we see the Movie then we can kind of understand what he means and he simply worded it wrong.

So i think he meant those beings on Paradise did not create the Xenomorph... but then the last quote i put does kind of hint they did, which the movie shows us they did not...

Confusing... Certainly ;)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Blackwinter-witch

May-14-2017 6:01 PM

I dunno anymore...
To me it's starting to sound as if they're making it up as they go, and don't really have a clear idea what they're doing.

I'm really starting to lose faith in the franchise, to be honest.

*Man's giant leap was just a stumble in the dark.*

dk

May-14-2017 6:05 PM

If we evolved from apes, it would seem that the Engineers would start with them as Wonder Boy suggested.

Phallic Jaw

May-14-2017 8:59 PM

Thank you everyone for keeping my imagination going.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.  I watched Androids blow and finger each other's flutes.

BigDave

May-18-2017 9:27 AM

The Sacrificial Scene was intended to had been the Kick Start of the Cambrian Period so over 550 Million years ago.

But other concepts and ideas put it as being Earlier and so just over a Billion Years ago

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-18-2017 9:32 AM

"Yes, Lindelhof's an idiot, but that can't be helped. The best science fiction picks up from where science fact left off -- rather than try to re-write known science."

I think its a bit harsh to blame him for the Plot, he did not really come up with it, and he worked with Ridley Scott to change some of Spaights things...  Turning Nano-Scarabs to a Mutagen Substance,  Changing the Engineers simply came to Earth and Modified the DNA of a Primate to create Mankind (which rises a lot of Plot Holes) to the Engineers kick starting complex life from a event that proved the catalyst to allow multi celled life.

The Religious themes was more on the nose in Spaights Draft, Lindeloff actually toned them down... his problem was making it a bit more ambiguous with the aim to allow us to all have our own theories and debates... and also the Characters came across a bit goofy like you would expect in a Super Hero movie.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Wonder Boy

May-20-2017 3:16 PM

@Blackwinter-witch

 

So it seems the initial sacrifice seen was nothing to do with the Engineers engineering humans. Just them seeding some random planet with life.

 

Where has Scott said that the Engineers have some 'Higher Powers' calling the shots above them?

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