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For those of you who have seen it... (minor SPOILERS) the inhabitants of "Paradise"

3 Upvotes22 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
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Working Joe

May-13-2017 7:58 AM

Im letting my thoughts run wild so bear with me:

Did anyone else get the impression that the species that got wiped out by the black goo bombs on "paradise" actually wasnt the engineer species themselves, but rather a subspecies that perhaps the engineers created?
I think by the look of the city, the behaviours of the inhabitants as well as their look made me think this was not the same species as the Engineer in Prometheus. Maybe this was a more primitive form of the engineers and that the engineers on LV-223 were more advanced biomechanically enhanced form, or maybe simply the creators of these species like they created humanity. 
Thoughts?


Maybe there is even a space jockey race that the engineers themselves worshiped (by for example mimicking their technology and aestethics by making their suits look like them) that we get to see later? I know this sounds far fetched but it think anything of this kind is possible in this universe. 
Im also having this weird vision of David fusing himself with some of the alien pathogen to create this "biomechanoid" superior and perfect entity. This will probably not be the case but im pretty sure he will evolve the xenomorph by making it more "biomechanical" by probably merging some of his own parts in a way. 

22 Responses to For those of you who have seen it... (minor SPOILERS) the inhabitants of "Paradise"

Blackwinter-witch

May-13-2017 9:44 PM

Consider that Engineers share our DNA absolutely, thus are Human, one of the Five Versions.
Now, look at the variety of races just within terrestrial humanity, right?

It's also possible they have a gene -based Caste system, and there's a difference between the 'space' engineers and the 'civvie' engineers.

*Man's giant leap was just a stumble in the dark.*

dk

May-13-2017 9:48 PM

Sorry Joe, I am trying to avoid spoilers but I up voted since I like the Isolation nod in your avatar!

Phallic Jaw

May-14-2017 6:45 AM

I haven't seen AC because I am Stateside and am thus trying to avoid spoilers but since I already knew about this and it isn't a major spoiler to me,  I am wading in.  

I too want to know what everybody's thoughts are on the people that get bombed.  They certainly are NOT Engineers, at least not the type we saw in Prometheus.  As far as I am aware this isn't addressed in the movie (please correct me if I am wrong but please no heavy spoilers) so is this just bad writing, or something very deliberate that will be explained in future movies?  It would have made more sense to me if David had bombed Prometheus-looking Engineers if he was so angry with them. Maybe he THINKS he is at Paradise but that's not THE Paradise, but like a Paradise Jr./one of many planetary Paradises/Paradai, inhabited by other lifeforms and the actual Prometheus Engineers are on THE Paradise?  I mean we already have seen a bunch of planets since the beginning of the Alien franchise, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility.  Plus if the "Paradise" in AC was THE Paradise (as in quite literally "Heaven"), I would have expected a much grander looking place than what I saw in the trailers etc, as some others have also suggested on here.  

And if you think about it, if the real Paradise isn't in AC, that leaves the possibility for story treatments in future sequels WIDE OPEN, doesn't it?  Eventually the real Paradise could be visited and we Prometheus fans could eventually see the story that we wanted continued in some form.  Somebody mentioned a war type movie between species in later movies, so maybe the Engineers find out (why wouldn't they?) about the destruction on the planet in AC, and they go out looking for revenge.  Don't know about you but I think that sounds pretty cool and a natural progression. I don't believe the Engineer race is completely wiped out.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.  I watched Androids blow and finger each other's flutes.

KaliPrime

May-14-2017 9:18 AM

Yeah if it just simply is not addressed at all...then that seems just like a lack of confidence and direction on the part of Scott. I mean why spend all this time, effort and creativity crafting something intriguing like the engineers...only to wipe them out in such a careless manner? To just throw the entire concept into the garbage heap like it never happened would be a shame. I for one was deeply intrigued by the engineers in Prometheus. Granted my initial reaction was disappointment at how human they appeared in the first scene. But, over time I grew to love the design. The sacrificial engineer looks like a living statue...it's pretty incredible the quality and technique involved. Compare that with what appear to be AC engineers and it is just wimpy and lacks that attention to detail. Also why even bother with the holocaust scene? its obfuscation is incredibly frustrating. Was it intentionally mysterious or unintentionally muddled I wonder.

Lone

May-14-2017 9:27 AM

That whole scene was a showstopper, just wish it could have lasted for more than a minute!

They are neither discussed nor explained in the film, so we are left to make up our own minds about them! Judging by their clothing they appear more benign and monk like. Although there were definitely females present.

The impression given was one of welcoming the Juggernaut, but when the mutagen urns began dropping they panicked and fled.

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

Working Joe

May-14-2017 9:48 AM

Dk: Lol thanks! Great game Isnt it?

Phallic Jaw

May-14-2017 10:00 AM

Then that is disappointing, guys (or gals...or both!).  Like I said I haven't seen the movie and this may sound arrogant but based on what I know I am just going to flat out say again that I don't believe they are Engineers or at least not Prometheus Engineers (we could call those Type A, or something?), and I don't believe the whole race is now extinct just because David bombed a bunch of them.  I believe whatever and whoever died on that planet died, and that's it.  Even if they WERE "Type A" Engineers, I find it hard to believe they would be all in the same place at the same time and not ONE of them was off exploring other galaxies, delivering payloads to some planet, or whatever.  What, did it just happen to be Thanksgiving Day or Life Day that day?  Lol.  How convenient, I guess David was able to access their holiday calendar too!  OK I jest, but you know what I am getting at.

Furthermore, is their race THAT minuscule that every single one of them can fit into one single arena in one city on an ENTIRE planet?  I mean, I know there are more people living in Manhattan than there are in North and South Dakota combined (for example) but c'mon!  There must be others of their kind living 50 miles away, or "down under".  That's another reason why I don't think they are Type A Engineers, if I needed another one.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.  I watched Androids blow and finger each other's flutes.

EWATYAMORPH

May-14-2017 11:46 PM

It seems the Engineer like humanoids on the paradise planet are one of a series of Humanoid like species with the same matching DNA as humans like us and the advanced warrior like Engineers on LV-223. They seem someewhere in between on the creation scale. Closer to Engineer form than us, but not quite there.

Is it possible they worship the Elders and the other LV-223 type Engineers?, as they are lower down on the creation chain perhaps and thought that a higher race of Engineers had finally returned to check in on them. Of course they were wrong and David unleashed hell on them.

I believe we haven't seen the last of those awesome type Engineers on LV-223 and they will learn of what happened on the "paradise" planet in Covenant and investigate. I believe there are more Engineers like that out there.

I think they will find out that humanity's android creation David has been looking to recreate the Xenomorph and they will wish to continue their mission to wipe out humans. The extra scenes in Prometheus that show Weyland and David talking to the Engineer reveal that the Engineer was appalled at how Weyland was claiming that he was now God like and deserved to live forever because he too had created "life" (David). The Engineer then destroys David and proceeds to kill the humans and finish the mission of destroying humans on Earth.

I don't think the LV-223 type Engineers are going to forget about this mission, especially when they see what humans creation has done on the "paradise" planet. 

Im wondering if the next film will bridge the gap with the Engineers wishing to use Davids new recreated Egg/Xeno type weapons to finally finish the mission to kill humans on Earth but the Space jockey has to put down on LV-426 due to some serious chest pain.

Phallic Jaw

May-15-2017 5:20 AM

Mods, member "Ronn" above appears to be a spambot.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.  I watched Androids blow and finger each other's flutes.

Denz1l

May-15-2017 10:47 AM

The first impression I had when the covenant crew arrived was that the planet looked incredibly similar to the planet at the beginning of Prometheus. This lead me to the impression that the occupants were the evolutionary result of the engineer's sacrifice from that film. Perhaps the engineers were protecting this planet (hence it's location being hidden). The feeling I had when the craft arrived and the expression on the gathered population was one of 'our gods have returned'.

Working Joe

May-15-2017 11:21 AM

I agree Denz1l, when you mention it; it does look like it could be the same planet from the opening of Prometheus. I like your theory, sounds plausible. 

Denz1l

May-15-2017 11:38 AM

Thanks Working Joe. Also, if they were Engineers I'm sure they would have realized immediately what the viles were that David was releasing rather than looking up in bemusement.

This does lead to another question though- did David know that the planet wasn't the engineer's homeworld (if it indeed wasn't)?

Working Joe

May-15-2017 11:45 AM

Hm...according to Ridley in a new yahoo interview the planet is "paradise" and their inhabiants are engineers (or the same species). Lets hope they are a far more primitive subspecies, and not that they are supposed to represent the engineers from Prometheus, because that wouldnt make sense at all. 

Denz1l

May-15-2017 12:11 PM

Interesting. You don't happen to have a link to that interview? Wouldn't mind reading it.

Phallic Jaw

May-15-2017 3:13 PM

If that's true I think Ridley is confused yet again.  Lol.  No way are they Engineers (at least not "Type A" Prometheus Engineers, as I have recently christened them). They are either a less evolved Engineer species or something else.  They look more like halfway between human and Type A Engineers.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.  I watched Androids blow and finger each other's flutes.

John D.

May-15-2017 6:51 PM

Here's the interview:

https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/ridley-scott-spills-spoileriffic-secrets-alien-covenant-140021937.html

You're saying Ridley is "confused?" Confused about his own creation? Hmm. Yeah, actually I think he more or less gets the final say in everything, whether we like it or not, to be honest. And if he says they're engineers, then they're engineers. Just because they don't look exactly like the ones in Prometheus is kind of irrelevant. It's far from the first time there were visual inconsistencies from one "Alien" film to another.

Jeffomorph

May-15-2017 7:16 PM

My hope then is that they are a civilian subset of the Engineers.  In contrast the Prometheus version of the Engineer represented a technologically advanced warrior caste.  Possibly biogenetically and technologically enhanced.

In any event, I hope Ridley doesn't try to tell us that this was the last of them.  There could still be a army left sleeping on LV-223.  It's not that that place was even close to being explored.

Phallic Jaw

May-15-2017 7:33 PM

John D:  With the greatest respect to you AND Ridley, if you read what he's been saying recently (it's been documented on here) he frequently doesn't make sense and contradicts himself.  Some have suggested (not me!) that due to his advanced age he may be displaying symptoms of old age related illnesses, which isn't too difficult to believe if you think about it.  

You just gotta look at what he said initially about Awakening being set between Prometheus and Covenant, when we now know that isn't true.  What filmmaker in his right mind would jump BACK in time to Prometheus from Alien, then FORWARD to AC, and then BACK again to Awakening.  That would be crazy and I can't think of any franchise that has done that, apart from ones that specifically involve Time Travel like the joke of a franchise that The Terminator series has now become.  Either way, he has raised questions with many about his mental state.  And regardless of what he has said, no I do not think the lifeforms in AC are Engineers (at least not Type A ones) because um, they look nothing like them!  And actually I do consider it highly relevant because it is relevant to the entire plot (visiting what David believes to be Paradise and the destruction of what he believes are the Engineers he encountered 10 years prior).  If those weren't Engineers then that changes the course of any future stories immeasurably.  

Also I believe it to be important and not irrelevant because if they are truly supposed to be the same Engineers we saw in Prometheus then the whole makeup department needs to be swiftly fired and they should never work another day in Hollywood, and Ridley should get his head tested. Lol.  Talk about worst continuity error in history!

I refuse to believe it's the latter.  I do not think anybody, including Ridley, who worked on that movie is stupid.  I believe the very different appearance of the "Engineers" was very deliberate and not that they just forgot how they are supposed to look in the 5 or 6 years since Prometheus was filmed.  Everything is done for a reason, and therefore not irrelevant.  Just like the dish in Prometheus trailer that was replaced by a green crystal in the finished movie - why the F did they do that?  Was the prop department just high that day? Lol

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.  I watched Androids blow and finger each other's flutes.

BigDave

May-16-2017 5:08 PM

I covered this a few times on other Topics so i will try and be brief here...

For all intensive purposes this could be a Oversight... much like how the Space Jockey was 21ft then 13-15ft due to the change of using 4ft Children  when entering the Space Jockey Room and then 6ft Actors (in Space Suits) up close.  We was not supposed to notice this difference its a oversight.

The close up scene in AC where we see these beings faces, yes they look different but this was just a few seconds, the other shots from a distance they looked more like Engineers.. and so again its a Oversight.

Ridley did say a few weeks or months ago, that the Engineers are not so much a Race but a Civilization/Culture so who knows how we can read into this.

This Topic HERE is where i covered more details to how maybe these cant be Engineers, well certainly not the Hierarchy.

Few things to ponder....

*Why Create us, if they have Females... which those beings in AC do.

*Ridley did not want to meet GOD in the first movie, this is why the Elders Scene was dropped... The Hall of Heads in AC which Ridley called Superior Species and Apostles, Wise Men.. seems to hint at them being superior to who? The others on Paradise?  

These Hall of Heads look like the Elders and thus the Hierarchy

*Would a Home-world of these Advanced beings, have such little Technology compared to LV-223 and only have One Docking Ship on Paradise...

*Yet there was a Hanger for the Juggernaught, which must have been empty, otherwise why how come David is stranded.  This Hanger has Statues around it that are like the Buddha Offering ones.

So even if these are Engineers, its very likely and Logically that the beings on this Planet are kept here in one place so they can be watched over by other beings.  And its likely the Hierarchy comes back to this Place from time to time to collect Sacrifices (Hence Sacrificial Engineer).

We also have to remember the Navigation System on the Jugernaughts has other Galaxies.. now the closest to us is 2.5 Million light years away.... compare that to LV-223 at 39 LY away, and so we have to ask if these beings have Maps to other Galaxies, and their Technology on those ships is so Advanced.

What are the chances their Home-world is a place with No Ships, and only a Docking Station, and a apparent lack of the Advanced Technology on the Surface of Paradise that the Docking Ship and Engineers Ships and Outposts on LV-223 had.. never mind the Sacrificial Scene Pebble Ships.

THUS....

Even if these beings are Engineers, they clearly are not the top of the Hierarchy and as Shaw asked... Who created them?

There is a whole new layer left to be explored.

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-16-2017 5:14 PM

If we Tackle what PARADISE is then it becomes more clearer...

Ridley seems to be hinting at Biblical References more than others in the TWO movies, and Prometheus 2 was to be Paradise Lost and then Pandemonium prior to John Logans Re-writes to change it to a Alieny Movie.

Paradise in context of Paradise Lost and the Bible is... The Cradle of Civilization, its where Mankind was Created.

*Paradise is not where God comes from.

*Paradise is not where the Angels come from.

*Paradise is a place where Mankind was Created (Adam and Eve)

*Paradise was guarded by Watchers/Cherubim (Angels) who was tasked at watching over Gods Creation and making sure they obey Gods Will and that no one is allowed into Paradise, without Authorization of God.

If they are loosely going this route... then we can clearly see Paradise in AC fits this Perfectly, it explains all those confusing things and Questions..

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Denz1l

May-17-2017 11:34 AM

I've been thinking more on this subject and looking back to the events of AC. I'm coming around to the idea that perhaps this planet was the birthplace of the black goo— in AC we find out that the Neomorph is created from the fungi/ spores found on the planet. My assumption is that this fungi is native to the planet and it could be possible that this was harvested and manufactured into the goo. In reference to the biblical definition of Paradise (as Big Dave had posted); Paradise is where mankind was created. This planet was the genesis of the black goo and the population here are it's protectors. It could also explain why the planet was hidden from scanners and why the population seems confined to the one city. I've started a separate thread about this if anyone is interested.

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