Stan Winston (deceased)
Apr-21-2017 12:15 AM
Yes, I agree with you. If Von Daniken inspired ideas in Prometheus, then Elijah Mohammad could have inspired this idea of a mad scientist who created the evil xenomorph, which henceforth terrorises humans.
Personally, I don't buy the idea of an 'artificial person' -- by their own volition -- deciding that creating the 'perfect organism' should be their life's work.
But I guess origin stories are a double-edged sword: with every revelation, the mystery and awe turns to mundane and ordinary.
Apr-21-2017 2:21 AM
Well, if true, the whole idea of David genetically engineering multiple versions of the creature to get the Xeno we're accustomed to can open many doors.
The android definition of 'the perfect organism' may vary from everyone else's. Everyone has a different name for 'Paradise,' according to Dr. Shaw's father. Are we even sure we can call the group on this planet Engineers? It probably wouldn't be how they refer to themselves in their own language.
Becoming biomechanical isn't necessarily part of the "natural order of things." Who's to say the Engineers ever intended the bioweapon to end up that way? Perhaps they have a fear of what happens when the bioweapon mixes with machines, and they usually avoid creating artificial intelligence such as David. Maybe their ideal version is more like the one pictured in the mural on LV-223, which David strives to re-create in his image.
Apr-21-2017 2:23 AM
ugh! just seem like some people just wanna throw more petrol on the fire!
Apr-21-2017 5:14 AM
At this point I’m only playing devil’s advocate, since it seems David (and/or Shaw) brought the fire of Hell to the planet. It was once a Paradise to some, but not no more.
By mixing the ALIEN with Walter's organic biomechanical parts, David might think it'll allow him to control the fire.
Attempting to control the ALIEN would, of course, backfire on every group who has tried to genetically modify or domesticate a 'wild' form of the species in the past: this type of fire would be able to retain its purity after machines & oil meld with it…
Apr-21-2017 6:37 AM
The "origin"-part doesn't fit. Neither to the mural on LV-223, the ancient "city" on LV-178 nor to the derelict on LV-426. Ridley himself stated that the derelict and the 223-installation are roughly 2000 yrs old.
At least on LV-178 and LV-426 the lifeforms involved are XX121. The mural on LV-223 could also be a deacon.
Of course Ridley could go and change that but that could render Fox's recent "canonical" merchandise pointless, don't think they'd go for that.
But you never know, right?
Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.
Apr-21-2017 8:23 AM
Ridley is prone to change his mind, seems he and John Logan had sat down and come up with a different plan, hence Ridleys Comments about Re-inventing. (the idea).
The only 100% Canon is the Movies everything else can be changed and swept under the Carpet.
Indeed there is the Mural in Prometheus but this could related to a Earlier Organism that the Black Goo is related to, the Deacon and the Mural do not look Bio-Mechanical.
The Fresco did show a Organism holding a Egg, but if you only saw the Movie then you would be hard pushed to see it as this Fresco was only partially viable and for less than a second and so they could completely ignore this as from what we see it offers 0 Proof they knew of the Eggs.
Its only when we see the Full Frescos that was used that we see the Egg Connection, but the movie does not show the Egg Fresco completely.
So indeed Ridley can choose to change how the Xenomorph was created, but i think this is a bad bad idea, but if its what Ridley and Logan have come up with then we have to accept it.
Despite it now being that events after Alien Covenant may now have to lead to a Evolution of the Organism to become Bio-Mechanical and then within the next 18 years end up on LV-426.
The whole thing is a set up for disappointment and Plot Holes..
But we dont know yet if Ridley is setting us up for a Red Herring. I will still hold onto hope with the COMMING into Alien from the Back Door and how Alien Awakens is in some way a Prequel to Alien Covenant.
THE BIG THING TO REMEMBER....
When Ridley talked about AI, he said that AI can not create or invent things to a degree, such as like write a book or do a Poem etc.
so this is maybe a Hint that David is ordered or helped to create the Xenomorph, or he is just following a previous Blue-print.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Apr-21-2017 9:06 AM
The xenomorph mural means the engineers knew of it or could create it before david.
i think david may learn of the xenomorph and create it as he gets twisted and bitter on the planet hes marooned on. The xeno in alien seems to be a modified version of the covenant aliens specifically for spaceships and wrecking the crew (humans)
david doesnt really make anything, the black goo does. He has to learn somehow to manipulate that substance, how can an ai do this so well and the human that creates him doesnt? AI is a tired concept, i would have preferred david as a mutated human who turns into an engineer.
Apr-21-2017 10:02 AM
I am of the mind set that David 8 studied the aliens on paradise and found that they had the Xenomorph in their history at one point and tries to rebuild it using clues and the black goo.
It would make sense than for the alien in this film to be so different while still holding the ancient biomechanical horror feel of its ancestor/ inspiration. kind of like resurrecting a t rex in jurassic park, it's still awe inspiring even though its man made because its a resurrection of an ancient being.
I just would hate to see the alien universe shrink so fast that the alien has only existed for a few decades in universe.
Something that would be cool is for that mural poster we got would be found in the movie some place as a way to show david wasn't the sole creator.
Also I hope the title Alien:Awakening is a hint that the true origin will be revealed then and Alien:Covenant is just going to show us how it could be conceived or give us hints towards a darker past.
Apr-21-2017 10:54 AM
I would like to believe that Prometheus had more influence on Covenant. The mural, the fresco, the big head, the green stone(that was originally a cup in early trailers). The mural has facehuggers on hosts in the mural too. There must be something deeper!!! :)
Apr-21-2017 10:58 AM
Thats what im hoping to, beyond screwing up the aliens origin it would just make things more confusing in the series if ridley ignored the things shown in prometheus.
A L I E N 4 2 6
Apr-21-2017 11:35 AM
Let's just remember that the only people that have ever considered the organism "perfect" have been androids....
Apr-22-2017 5:23 PM
I think it depends if they intended the Face Huggers to be just Easter Eggs, but i hate it when a Movie is set up to give us clues to the Origin of the Xenomorph and the race behind it, and they choose to throw in Easter Eggs as these then make us think they are connected.
I hope they take that Mural on board because while the Fresco of the Egg can not be fully seen in the Movie, no matter how you freeze frame... Those Face Huggers can.
The Alien Covenant poster could also be a Easter Egg and no more, but i hope its actually relevant as its clearly not the results of the Event we see in Alien Covenant.
The thing to remember is only what is Shown in the MOVIES can be considered 100% Canon, and Alien in no way gave us how long the Space Jockey had been there.
Prometheus also never gave enough evidence to suggest how long it was there....
The only Clues we can take away is the Engineers had that Black Goo that is connected Genetically to the Xenomorph, either it comes from it, or it comes from the Black Goo via a series of events and evolution.
What is clear is the Deacon and Face Huggers show they had encountered a organism that is related to the Xenomorph in the past and either the Black Goo came from this, or the Black Goo eventually lead to this (Mural)
The Engineers had this Black Goo and was aware of the Deacon Thousands of Years ago..
And another thing to remember is the Chest Busted Engineers had happened way before Prometheus got there and maybe Thousands of Years too.. I hope they dont intend to use this shot as a Oversite we was never to consider (Chest Busted Cryo-Pods).
I would prefer it if David is Re-creating the Blue-print.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Apr-22-2017 9:18 PM
I really do hope that they remember the details of both the first Alien and Prometheus and expand upon them or atleast not contradict them.
I would like to see that the mural poster for Alien Covenant is found as like a piece of history in the temple on paradise or something seen in the some what engineer civilization or one of the ships as a warning or story of the horror they have dealt with or had a hand in finding/creating
Apr-23-2017 1:14 AM
On the same page here, folks. I think it would now seem reasonable to rule out Paradise being LV426 so hopefully the Juggernaut 'had' been there for a long time and the ALIEN is indeed an old creature/creation.
I'm all for David working out how to create this thing but having him being the original creator would really cheapen the whole franchise for me. As you say above, there would be too many contradictions. If that is the case then the engineers had a rather baffling foreknowledge of the ALIEN didn't they? They seemed to create/have goo that could make these things but never did . . . so what, they just randomly painted those murals? What were they running from? What busted out of their suits?
Na, I'm not buying it!
THe whole thing can only work, imo, is if these are an old creation used for a sinister purpose. David, as BD says, has found the blueprint and now has the materials . . .
I am wondering if one race/faction within the Engineer civilization tried to rule all of the others and attempted to use the alien for this - this then led to war etc and what we see on LV223? Might do a thread on this later.
Apr-23-2017 6:31 AM
My thought on the mural is that it may be part of a series of warnings about what happens if they play with fire or black goo.
About David reconstructing the steps to recreate the alien yep, he's intelligent enough to piece together how they did it from the available remains and his breaking of the covenant permits him to go to this dark place and carry the recreation through.
I think the spores are a natural accident rather than David's direct creation but can't wait to see if my guesses are proven right or wrong.
Apr-23-2017 8:31 AM
Look at the newest trailer. What do you think of the arena walls.? These are walls to protect. But protect from what or who. Look at the set photo, where are mumified beings by the lattices, that could be transpassed only by human sized beings, not the bigger ones. Is it alien arena, or arena for something else or bigger that we havent seen yet and more than landing of ships? Is the cruelty represented by the arena some reason, why david decided to destroy all inhabitants of the city?
Apr-24-2017 3:34 AM
I am open to many ideas/explanations. If executed right, I'm fine with this.
Apr-24-2017 6:40 AM
Yes indeed! The chestbusted sleep chambers on the Juggernaut in Prometheus also were an indicator. Many people did overlook that, but I remember years ago when we all were speculating Prometheus leaked photos we saw clear and present holes in the sleep chambers. I watched Prometheus again last night and still am curious as to what the green goo was that David ha between his fingers and was intrigued by it. You are correct about the fresco on the ceiling not really clearly showing the Xeno hands and egg changing. I only picked up on that from the Prometheus art book :)
Apr-24-2017 7:18 AM
As for the green goo ...
I have theorized that the green goo was their form of electricity. David is "impressed" by the form it is in ... a gel that "contains" electricity. I believe this because he immediately starts turning things on .... as if he said "ok good, there's still power"
As for the Engineer's knowledge of the xenos ...
Obviously, the Engineers are quite familiar with the xeno plague and life stages. They went as far as to show it on the walls of their sacrifice temple! I think this info is super important, not something that will be left out.
David is building on what the Engineers were discovering. Likely, Covenant will show us what David "did/does", but the movie AFTER Covenant will show us what he learned about them before he did all this.
I'm guessing the green stone contains amber-fossil DNA of an ancient and powerful race of aggressive beings discovered in the Engineers' journeys. Maybe they only showed interest in it after one of their ant farms (Earth) starts "going bad". They got so worried about humans behavior that they created something to wipe them out (or perhaps we are just experimental food?)
Regardless of their motive, the Engineers were planning to drop the bombs on us. The bombs themselves are intriguing. My guess is that inside the glass ampules is the mutagen that they use to accelerate DNA recombination. It can be used on anything to break its parts down into a recipe or soup. This can then mix with other ingredients to make localized life.
However, some jerk of an Engineer along the way had the bright idea of "hey, why not mix in other beings traits as we go, to make NEW life. Maybe without even having to SACRIFICE OURSELVES"
Bad idea. So .... oh yeah .... the bombs. I think the black slime on the outside of the ampules is evil dark xeno being DNA melted down from the mutagen, captured, then contained in this slime to act as a reactant. The bomb is dropped ... the ampules break .... the mutagen begins making xeno / host combos that are aggressive as hell and kill everything in sight.
My biggest mystery is whether we were just an experiment or if we actually worried the Engineers enough that they want to kill us? And will we find out that the cross / sacrifice / Jesus / deacon / crucifix thing are all symbolically related ... as are David's name and Shaw's immaculate conception?
Micro changes in air density
Apr-24-2017 2:58 PM
Remember the pile of engineer carouses on lv223 with their chest burst open. It would be a significant rewriting of everything RS has done thus far to change this now. My guess is that David just experiments further with the goo and produces other species or makes them more aggressive. I'd bet he is acting on orders from weyland who send the covenant crew to test his evolutionary theories!!
Apr-24-2017 4:22 PM
That's not a Mural on LV 223, it's an actual Xeno, the Ultramorph. It was in suspended animation. It defrosted. I'm pretty sure that's how the Juggernaut crashed and that's what laid the eggs. It was not a weapon, but the Engineers are recreAting their God and it's World, David robbed it. They removed the brain from the Equation. David knew what happened no one asked him. Humanity was created to bring forth this God, not create David.... It's truly Survival of the Fittest now.
That's why they started Terra forming worlds
Apr-24-2017 4:58 PM
could you elaborate further on your theory its very different from most people's theories on the mural.
Apr-24-2017 7:12 PM
Im confused as hell