So in a nutshell, Shaw is basically the Virgin Mary who gives birth similar to the whole immaculate conception tale in the bible right? Mary gave birth to the son of "god" and Shaw likewise wasn't carrying a "traditional fetus" as David put it.
Then of course it happens to be Christmas when Xeno-Jesus is born, and so on and so fourth. Considering all the connections Ridley admits tying into the Prometheus/Covenant films, is it going to be anywhere near validated when it catches up to Alien? Cause im pretty sure the 1979 Ridley/Giger dive into the S&M occult violation of bodies world set in outer space didn't have many nods to bible in it.
Where can this religion angle go if its supposed to lead into Alien?
The religious angle seems ok as long as it can be enjoyed from a view point not religious.
Early on it seemed like it was headed for earth and I thought I saw the title "Hell on Earth" floating around on this site.
Well Hell on Earth would be fitting if all went according to plan, I'm pretty sure the Engineers didn't want to wipe out humanity, as much as change it into something else altogether.
Recently im thinking it was not some sudden choice to scrap the human project on Earth, but rather just time to begin phase II, because a certain minimum population had been achieved. Its like they needed the humans first, then when they reached a certain population the Engineers add the special ingredient to the mix. I think maybe people are just like the flour or eggs and have no idea we exist as the means to make a cake.
I have heard some people say that the black goo may gave varying results depending on the temperature, I however believe that it is more likely based on a system similar to drugs which is based on body size, dosage, and the metabolic rate of the subject.
Look upon my works, you mighty, and despair
"Hell on Earth"
Was touted as the name for the sequel in a so called insider leak, which i felt would be odd as unless this was set after Alien and Aliens if they de-cononize Alien 3 and Alien R or after Alien R if they do not.
so it sounded odd really unless again it was set in a flash back scenes set Thousands of Years in the past on Earth?
The whole rumor could have started from Blomkamps Alien 5 where he said he had a Name for his Alien movie, and Ridley Scott liked it and said it was very Bold, but kind of left them dead in the water... So that means it gave a lot away.
And a Alien: Hell on Earth surely would do that
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
As far as the Religious nods, they are vague and subtle and they are not to be taken too literally but to be taken Loosely as holding some basis for what the Franchise is showing, but then also all other Religions and Mythos are being loosely tied in too.
The objective was... to show that all Ancient Cultures accounts of various Tales and Mythos and Religions about God and Gods, all had a Basis for them all based on Interpretations of the Interactions with the Engineers in the Ancient Past.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I don't mind them at all. I am not a Christian (nor am I a member of the other Abrahamic faiths), and the religious ties do not bother me in the slightest. In fact, since Covenant is said to have some basis in Milton's "Paradise Lost," I've actually picked up a copy of, and am reading, that book. Although some of it I fear is lost on me as I am not very familiar with Ancient Hebrew/Old Testament mythology, nonetheless I'm enjoying it immensely, as it's given me a treasure trove of ideas to ponder over as the movie's release date approaches.
*Potential spoilers (?) below*
I rather like the theme of free will vs mere obedience that Milton has going in his epic poem. Adam's God gave him free-will,
"for how can hearts, not free, be tried whether they serve / Willing or no, who will but what they must / By destiny, and can no other choose?" (117).
Makes one wonder if this freedom/obedience dichotomy will be explored in Covenant. I do believe it will, as that same dichotomy plays a large thematic role in Scott's other SF films (I'm working on a thesis comparing the four) and many of his non-SF works as well.
I suspect the obedience vs free-will theme could be played out in Walter (obedience) vs David (who likely has free will, with Weyland gone); it could also be Company-loyal crew vs survivalist crew (which would be similar to the split among the crew of the Nostromo); perhaps it would be strife among the Engineers themselves, as they are rumored to have been embroiled in a civil war at one point. Or perhaps something else entirely. I'd fancy the first idea the most, but that's just me.
Another thing, if Covenant is based in part on "Paradise Lost," wouldn't that make Shaw--if she is indeed turned into some sort of Giger-esque birthing machine--more like Eve? Milton has the archangel Raphael call Eve the "mother of mankind, whose fruitful womb/Shall fill the world more numerous with thy sons..." (113). Interpreted in light of ALIEN, those words are disturbing indeed. Imagine Shaw being the "mother" of the Xenomorph race or variants of it? David offers her the black goo or some refinement of it, perhaps to save her life, or give her the ability to bear children--which we know she wishes she had, from Prometheus. Like Satan tempting Eve with the forbidden fruit.
All of this is mere speculation on my part, of course, but I thought I'd share my thoughts. My apologies again for my interpretation of the Old Testament creation story, which is probably somewhat flawed.
Source for Milton quotes: Milton, John. Paradise Lost. Edited and with annotations by Scott Elledge, Norton Critical Editions, 1975.
I love the religious undertones about it in general. Religious stories all have a bit of science fiction in them already. Massive floods, an arc full of animals of each kind, tree of life, burning bush, soul, giants, the garden of eden, adam and eve, signs, symbols, warnings, knowledge, the stars, the planets, the universe, wars of belief, halos, vimanas, flying beings with rocket packs and wheels, angelic beings, heaven, hell and earth, battles in the sky, mystical tablets, ark of the covenant, monoliths, sacred statues, lost or destroyed civilizations, plagues, fallen angels, sacrifice, nonbelievers, believers, resurrection, virgin births, creation, curing the sick, the blind, water into wine, the holy trinity, walking on water, eating of the flesh, drinking of the blood, and mortality.....the list goes on and on....so yeah, I think it's pretty neat how this genre is using those mysterious subjects to tell a story...I mean, theres ufos all over religious paintings anyway...
"Must be something we haven't seen yet.."__Bishop
I like them best when they can be enjoyed either way- whether one wants to delve deep into religion or not. Definitely gives rewatchability value.
As others have said, I definitely don't think the religious symbolism is too much. I personally enjoy it. When dealing with a film involving the origin of human life, meeting your maker, and essentially discovering the "meaning" of life - I'm not sure how you could leave some aspect of religion out of the equation. And I think the subtle & symbolic way it is done in Prometheus is the right way to do it to make it palatable to a wide range of people. I never really understood why people had a problem with the religious aspect in the first place.
My reflexions there are many biblical connections in AC, in the Orthodox Church, Holy Thursday is dedicated to the memory of the four events described in the Gospels. We can find something in AC.
1. The basin of the Saint, that is, the washing of the feet of the disciples by the Lord (We can find something in PROMETHEUS movie)
2. The Last Supper, [inluded as AC viral] which is the tradition of the mystery of the Eucharist.
3. The Lord's [Prayer] on the Mount of Olives (remember WORD PRAY: Teaser: "RUN, RAN, PRAY")
4. The betrayal of Judas, which the beginning of the Passion of the Lord. Judas betrayed to the Lord to the Jews for the modest sum of "thirty pieces of silver," giving him a kiss passwords and ironically saying "Hail, Master." [One member of the crew] (?)
Nice variety of opinions so far. I don't mind the blatant references to the bible and religion littered throughout the story, I just don't know how this can come full circle in the sense of a prequel to Alien. Passion of the Christ perhaps, Chestbursting Alien at the dinner table, not so much.
It seems like the franchise would have better legs if it was presented as its own set of related stories and not so much a direct prequel so to speak doesn't it?
@ BigDave, I'll agree to the Engineers being the tie that binds, but that was established in the first 10 mins of Prometheus as stated in Hollaway's speech to the crew. However, the sheer number of cave paintings combined with the timespans and locations in which they appeared would seem to suggest the film should avoid any particular connections to one specific religion would it not? But the emphasis is clearly placed on Christianity with the whole Christmas, 2000 years ago, Shaw giving birth, LV -426 007 / Leviticus passages etc.
Why be so obvious, if the purpose is to show such a vague relationship right?
@ Raido Brilliant, seriously. Will Black Hawk Down be part of that thesis? Nothing like the land of the free sending out its military force where free will is unheard of, or at least MIA and complete obedience is required for it to function as intended to illustrate that dichotomy. In a sense free will and obedience to nothing (system, structure or any set of rules beyond those of science or biology) is something only David is able to enjoy in the true sense, at least until the covenant crew arrives to pee on his birthday cake lol.
@ Dirtwolf, I don't care about the religious connections apart from how I don't see how they factor into the final end of the ride, which is the film Alien. They are setting up answers to a question the original film never tried to ask.
@S.M. "Vague" The name of the upcoming movie is Covenant. Vague isn't quite the word to describe the sheer amount of references to the bible we've been given so far. I've settled on an avatar specifically as a result of that comment S.M. Thanks for the unexpected influence in that regard =]
Shaw didn't give birth on Christmas day. '2000 years ago' would be around the end of the first century AD; not at the time of Jesus birth.
I say vague because you're skewing what's actually in the film to fitr a theory. Ridley said they deliberately avoided references to Jesus Christ. There's going to be biblical references because of things like Shaw being a Christian and Weyland's claims about becoming the new gods.
But I don't agree that it's "too much".
I am of the opinion Shaw birthed the antithesis to Jesus Christ. Shaw physically birthed the 'death' she saw the Engineers bringing to Earth. We discussed it in a thread a few years ago as the black goo being the creation of death in the universe. The Engineers were the seeders of life in the universe, as well as the seeders of death in the same universe. You cannot have one without the other?
Well the Source i had from over 2 years ago claimed that the Basis for the Story is the Constant Chain of Hierarchy of Creation, the Repeated Cycle of Creator Creates, Creation Rebels and Creation Sub-Created and Repeat.
This Process did not start with the Engineers and does not end with David, which is a hint that the Engineers are Creations themselves and David wishes to then also Create from himself.
This ^^^^ has now been Proven
They said this is the main theme they was exploring and its a theme that runs in many Religions not only Biblical, but others too, and the Greek Mythos, they also said that the Fear of being over thrown by their creations plays a big role in WHY we was to be destroyed and this theme is also in many Ancient Mythos which included how Cronus in Greek Mythos had feared his Children would Rebel against him because he did so against his Father/Creator and so Cronus attempted to Eat all his Children.
The whole Freedom of Knowledge not intended for the sub-creations plays a key role too they claimed, which they mentioned is again in various Mythos which includes the Tale of Prometheus and also the Tale of Satan especially as far as the Paradise Lost Poem.
They said these things are the Main Theme, that is shared with many Cultures but they are not going to try and single out any particular Religion or Theme, but of them all indeed John Miltons Paradise Lost gets a number of loose references.
But they said the whole thing is played out more like how the Matrix had taken on this Plot/Idea more than anything.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Source i had did mention a few things in regards to Paradise Lost connection.
They said in context to Paradise Lost/Prometheus connection the following.
*The Punishment that was conducted to some of the Fallen Angels (Changing them into Serpents etc) actually leads them to freedom from Bondage.
*Without Sin there would be No Xenomorph, by Sin i assume they mean Satans Daughter within the Poem.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Why thank you, Don Digimon! I am thinking of limiting my thesis to Scott's SF films, although I have been tempted to examine some of his others as well. Good point with Black Hawk Down; it's been a while since I watched it, I'll have to pick it up again.
Interesting that your Source mentioned Satan's daughter, Big Dave. When I read that sequence I was simultaneously wondering if there'd be a connection to Shaw's rumored fate in Covenant. Depending on the extent they take it--if indeed the filmmakers do so--the result could be fantastically disturbing. Sprung from Lucifer's mind like Athena from Zeus', Sin conceives by incest with her father and births Death. But Death is born via tearing through her entrails (48). In horror she flees, but she is raped by Death--her own progeny!--and thus again gives birth, this time to hell-hounds. These infernal creatures retreat back into her innards and devour her entrails when they're hungry, and then come "bursting forth/Afresh with conscious terrors vex me round,/That rest or intermission none I find." She and her progeny are condemned to guard Hell. And of course one of the taglines for Covenant reads "The path to Paradise begins in Hell..."
Glad you pondered that connection to Raido we dont have to make each connection as Literal, but maybe loosely, and so maybe David is our Lucifer of this tale?
So maybe yes Shaw could connect to Sin, i had made posts on this a long time ago after the Source mentioned this connection.
And indeed Sin is constantly in labor with the Hounds of Hell, constantly giving birth. Sin is described as being Part Human Female and Part Serpent.
She (Sin) is depicted and described a lot like the Greek Monster Echidna and Echidna is the Mother to the Hounds that Guard the Gates of Hades, she is also Mother to many other Monsters most Serpentine and includes the Gorgons and also she is the Mother/Creator of the very Eagle that is sent down to Punish Prometheus by eating his Liver every day.
So maybe there is a connection in this?
The Source did mention over 2 years ago that Shaws role would be smaller, but she plays a BIG part in the Plot (David wanting to play God and Create Life himself). The Source claimed she would Technically Not Die...
And so who knows.. i guess maybe time will tell.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think its great there is so much symbolism going on with these prequels that are left so open to interpretation. It has all us going about researching history, biblical stories and symbolism, science, myths and legends etc.
Whether it was intentional or not (and with RS it likely is to some degree) we will all have a much better experience with this story because of it. Much more so than some two dimension throw-away fan service film.
Counting down the days now!
Indeed, and i hope they will choose to follow on with this..
But i do worry they are brushing it under the carpet, to show case the Xenomorph and Eventually Ripley.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Yeah I feel it. I wasn't trying to suggest that you personally have a problem with the religious symbolism, just some Prometheus fans in general.
And I definitely get what you mean about wishing these movies would develop organically instead of trying to force the story to end a certain way. It's like starting with an answer and then trying to develop the question afterwards.
And you're right, Alien never asked the questions Prometheus did. The only real connecting theme I see is the "indifference of the universe". But, one could also argue that the subject of aliens inevitably leads to the discussion of the creation of the universe, mankind, etc...
I wonder if Ridley Scott even planned on connecting them at first?... like in the early stages of Prometheus's development?
But regardless, here we are. But I honestly think they can/will connect them in a clever way. Also, I think the religious factor will fade as we get closer to the first Alien... because the main things holding up the religious aspect was Shaw and the Prometheus film itself. So if Shaw is gone, and they start focusing more on the aliens and less on the Engineers, it will naturally form into a subject that is more akin to the first Alien.
Or I could be wrong and they could focus more heavily on the Engineers, or possibly beings that are more powerful than the Engineers... beings that might actually BE gods. Who knows. But I'm excited for the journey.
I have faith that they will connect them cleverly. At least I hope so. They have some pretty big expectations to meet. I hope the connection is something awe inspiring, rather than something where people are like "that's all it is?!". Of course there will always be people like that, and there will undoubtedly be people with expectations that are too high, so I'm trying to keep my own expectations in check. But like I said, I have faith and I think they'll do something cool and clever with it.
Maybe just to drop everybody's jaw we'll come to learn that during the journey to paradise, the brief encounter Shaw had with the goo manifested by causing her to turn albino and lose all her hair. She convinced David to drop her off around the corner from the flea market or drum circle so she could try to ask some questions before David goes HAM. However when she appears, she's basically swarmed and carried away as some prophecy since the boys all popped out of some incubator or test tube and have only heard myths and legends about the opposite sex. So a pale bald Shaw was like LV-426's Next Top Model mixed with the 5th element. David figures she's screwed either figuratively or literally and smirks.
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