My theory on Shaw [potential spoilers]
Posted Apr-17-2017 6:18 AM
I've just joined but have been lurking for about a year now.
Just a theory from myself on the latest Empire pic with David watching the black goo being dropped on the people/engineers below. One thing which I thought odd was him watching the stuff being dropped from what looks like the bomb/cargo hold? I would have thought that dropping such a weapon would be carried out via the 'bridge' and not the bomb hold? So that led me to think that David may not have dropped the black goo...it is in fact Shaw who will drop the stuff with David simply powerless and observing, knowing that all he can do is watch.
I just think it's way too obvious to be David who carried out such action, especially with them showing a pic which would lead one to believe that he dropped the black goo on the people below.
I may be way off base here, but from what I can gather, out of Shaw and David, it would be Shaw who has the biggest axe to grind in that 1) one of the Engineers tried to kill her and 2) it's her species that they wanted wipe out. May be they arrived and Shaw got an answer which put her into a rage?
Once Shaw had wiped them out, David is then disgusted with humanity and so decides that they must not spread through the galaxy...effectively, he takes the side of the Engineers.
Just a theory, but not long to go to find out either way.
Posted Apr-17-2017 8:31 PM
i think this might be the way they go....i also feel that he cant stand there and watch the canisters drop AND pilot the ship, autopilot just seems silly in this essense...i fee either she is working with him and holding the ship steady/piloting it in this moment for him ...or exact,y what you describe above
perhaps the answer she got was horrifying and just pushed her over the edge and as you said she had the ax to grind not him....they wanted humanity dead, they tried killing her, their work (with a little help from David) essentially killed her lover Holloway..... i think this would be the cool way to go with how it all goes down, i hope your guess or theory happens...it would be a cool twist and many wouldnt expect it
Posted Apr-18-2017 10:39 AM
But David wants the Engineers and Humans dead. Shaw wanted answers, not revenge on an alien race before getting any information.
Shaw has faith, David has the axe to grind and already knows nothing good will come upon landing and trying to ask questions he considers irrelevant. David is standing in the Cargo hold for a simple and obvious reason. To observe first hand what happens when the goo canisters hit some Engineers in the forehead and people get drenched in that stuff.
David cant resist seeing that for himself in my opinion. I bet he's come as close to excitement as possible right before dropping the WMD's on the inferior people who created the more inferior people who created himself, who he considers to be superior to both.
It would be a good theory, had the foundation for the opposite not been so firmly laid already.
Just my opinion though, great post in any case. =]
Posted Apr-18-2017 10:58 AM
David never stated anything remotely aggressive in regards to his thoughts about the Engineers, nor has he ever said anything threatening in regards to the Engineers in Prometheus or in any leaks or trailers for Alien Covenant. In fact the only item in regards to this he has ever stated was his speech against humanity that was reported from the CinemaCon footage that was shown. He has never said anything about hating the engineers at all, even with his head ripped off, never said anything like that any time. i would say that Shaw has the bigger ax to grind.
Not saying it could go this route but i could easily see him trying to override it all and stop it from the bay doors while Shaw releases everything from the pilots chair. ...although i could also see him wanting to witness the outcome of dropping the goo as well....but i do not feel autopilot is in play here as it seems too easy and lazy to write this scene that way....he is either working with Shaw in this moment or against her but both are on the ship together. Perhaps if she does drop the goo, what she does causes him to see mankind in a different light thus being the inception point of him seeing mankind as something not worthy of existence.
The voice over from the CinemaCon footage has him saying this "
“The gods have rejected mankind as cruel, weak and full of greed,” David then says in a voiceover. “They are a dying species, grasping for resurrection. So they are leaving the earth forever.”He continues, “But their power is an illusion. They don’t deserve to start again, and I’m not going to let them.”
I feel this is later in the movie, probably during an exchange with Walter where he explains his hatred of mankind.
Shaw going against Faith and what she essentially was all through Prometheus to be a killer and destroyer could cause an epiphany with David. After all how she was in Prometheus clearly interested and if nothing else amused David but having her flip a switch i could see causing David to see humans as not worthy of existence....really anyything is possible i just hope whatever it is is done well and in a well written way....after they do it, they cant redo it so please do Alien Covenant well...pretty please!!!!
Posted Apr-18-2017 11:00 AM
I agree. But I think the marketing may be leading us up the wrong path. We have two plot theories 1) David kills the Engineer-like beings and 2) David decides that humans must not spread throughout the galaxy. So is David declaring war on two species? And if so, why?
So far, the we're being led to believe that David is the bad guy. One picture which shows him observing black goo being dropped does not really lead to "David dropped black goo" on those folk. Although it may do. However, I just think it's way too obvious.
But then we have another scene with David wearing the cloak. OK...so why would one kill folk but then wear their clothes?
Agreed that it's all so simple and does seem like David did the deed. But, what if it were Shaw? Hell...what if they arrived there and the ship then took over thinking it was on a bombing run?
To arrive and then drop the canisters doesn't make sense - to just drop them, and for no reason?
Of course, all just speculation...roll on May 12th!!!!
Posted Apr-18-2017 11:39 AM
I think david sees all mammal/humanoid life as 'species' which serve his programming from weyland, obtain all intelligence on alien organisms and its capabilities, if david gets destroyed, weyland still have the data and can develop new weapons, send more ships etc.
i think shaw and david are either intent on getting the engineers back for lv223, or learnt something on the way that swerved them to bomb them away.
i also consider the cave drawings in prometheus, pointing to lv223, so the 'good' engineers were letting us know about a hell planet where they are developing an atrocious weapon to use on us??!! Id bomb them to hell!!
Posted Apr-18-2017 12:58 PM
I just thought of something that is obvious but i dont think has been touched on before....just dawned one me....now i am actually thinking the story may really go this route or something similar to what MrLahey suggested in the original message on this thread.
Shaw would have had the entire time they were traveling in space to learn her answers....think about it David can access their controls, speak their language ( along the lines of Lex Luthor learning about the universe by accessing the Kryptonian ships data banks in BVS) he could probably access all the data the juggernaut's data banks can hold thus he would be able to show or give Shaw her answers just by possibly accessing the ship long before they arrive at this planet. I feel this works much better than any sort of attempt at conversation with the beings on Paradise, as i feel that would be futile and a waste of time. They would not probably engage her as they see humanity not worthy of existence, hence their plan to bomb Earth, just like we could care less about the roaches, they would see her as beneath them. So her and David gaining the desired knowledge or background of "the why of the engineers" from the ship's data banks works better from a story telling point of view IMO. Perhaps what they learn or get a glimpse of is horrific and unimaginable and she or they see no other way after what they learn.
Posted Apr-18-2017 1:36 PM
I'm not convinced that all what is said in the voice over is addressing mankind. Apart from the obvious.
“The gods have rejected mankind as cruel, weak and full of greed” - Mankind alright.
“They are a dying species, grasping for resurrection. So they are leaving the earth forever.” - Humans, dying species? Doesn't sit right with me. Leaving and resurrection? There are still humans on earth, this passage makes more sense with the Engineers to me.
“But their power is an illusion. They don’t deserve to start again, and I’m not going to let them.” - Again? For me colonizing is spreading rather than a restart. But that depends on how you see it. Here it is 50/50 mankind or engineers.
As far as I'm aware we don't know the full context of these sentences. They could be cut together to lead us astray.
Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.
Posted Apr-18-2017 2:59 PM
Spoiler. After docking the juggernaut, David goes down to the cargo bay to unleash the black goo. From the docking station Engineers board the juggernaut unknowingly causing shaw and David to lose control of it. My guess is this is how the juggernaut crashes and David gets fresh engineer corpses to study.
Posted Apr-18-2017 3:06 PM
Indeed we dont know who 100% that statement by David was aimed at, until we here the footage for ourselves then who knows if there was more to this and what we had in the Cinemacon Footage was a Mash-up, where there is more dialog than this that fits between a Statement aimed and Mankind and the other that could apply to the Engineers.
It could have a Dual meaning....
I think we need to maybe wonder what was the creation of Mankind for, The Sacrificial Scene did not have to be on Earth, as Ridley Scott had said. He also said that this was not the only way these Engineers could create life but just the way they chosen to do so.
And so the Sacrificial Scene could have been a scene repeated over and over on Many Worlds, or even the First Attempt to Resurrect a Dying Race.
The Extended Engineer Scene that had dialog (we have not yet seen the full one), only a edited Elder Scene exists and also one slightly extended by virtue of Dialog by the Elder.
where he informs the Sacrificial Engineer "Let your body become the dirt! Your blood become the waters. May your soul become their way back to us."
We then have to try and fit in the Biblical Connections and other Mythos to why Mankind was created. You then come to a few of these.
*Companionship - The Gods Wanted to create something to watch over and also be worshiped by in return.
*To replace a previous Rebellious Creation - kind of like a 2nd attempt.
*To Perform some Task/Labor for the Benefit of the Creators.
The Paradise Lost Connection can not be overlooked, even if this is toned down.
Paradise was the Garden of Eden the Place the First Man and Woman was created who was led Astray by the Fallen Angel Satan who had been kicked out of the Kingdom of Heaven for his Rebellion against God. Satan then Managed to get Adam and Eve to Forbid Gods instructions/rules and this resulted in THEM also being kicked out of Paradise.
We dont know if those Fallen Engineers where Kicked out and then decided to Create their Own Humanoids (Humans on Earth) or if they joined or even took some of the early Humanoids who was kicked out of Paradise with them, to then set up Shop on another World (Earth).
so finding out WHY and by WHOM Mankind was created is a Big Question and One of those that Shaw wished to ask.
I will assume that Davids Statement applies to Both Mankind, the Engineers and all Levels of Humanoids.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Posted Apr-18-2017 3:15 PM
That really fits nicely with the Cinemacon description on one site that said the two ships connect together and then once "docked" to the other ship, David releases the urns. The bombing pic is from the juggernaut deck but I think you can see part of the scorpion tail ship in the shot to the left of David so they are attached at this point (maybe). :)
Posted Apr-18-2017 3:40 PM
As far as the OT Goes and who's to blame... or at fault for this Bombardment we need to address the Agendas.
1) DR Shaw... She was a Religious yet Scientific Person who had devoted a lot of her life to the Many left over clues in Ancient Mankinds Past that point to a place where perhaps our Creators had came from.
She was hoping that finding this place that she ASSUMED was a Invitation, would allow Mankind to Meet these Creators who must have Good intentions as they clearly left us Star Maps to find them.
She was very religious and so she saw only the Good in Creation, and would in no way expect or be prepared to find out the Horrific Truth she did in Prometheus.
Having No Mother/Father, and not having any Children all she had was her Boyfriend (Holloway) and her work and faith, and so finding out her Work leads to a place where Death and Destruction was being prepared by these Godlike Engineers for use on Mankind, certainly was at odds to what she thought her WORK would have brought her too, and the Revelations she discovers could no doubt impact her Faith.
Having Lost her Boyfriend and found these beings are Mortal After all, and intended to Destroy us with a Horrific Bio-Weapon she decides their is Nothing Left for Her but to FIND THE REASONS.
Why was we Created, by Who, Who created those Engineers and what did we do that Warranted them to want to Destroy us.
2) David 8... We know more about him and his Agenda, he was a Synthetic who appeared to be allowed a more relaxed set of Programing Restrictions placed upon him as he was Weyland's own Personnel Android and the closest he had to a Son. It is likely David 8 the Prototype had his Memories and experienced carried over from previous Weylands own Personnel David Models from David 1P to David 7P and then David 8 P (Prototype). This in effect makes David Immortal and this is something his Creator Ultimately is aiming for, he wants to be Immortal himself, and he just could not be able to Transfer Human Experiences and Memories (Soul) into his Synthetics and So Dr Shaws findings gave Weyland his last hope of finding a way for extended Life.
David over the many years, realizes his is more Superior to Mankind, he has gained many Humanoid Emotions and so the way Weyland Parades David like some kind of Trophy to the Achievements and Greatness of himself (Peter Weyland) while on the other hand stating David is not a Real Boy, never have feelings and never have a Soul.... have had a effect on David and how he views Mankind.
He was still bound to following his Creators Agenda and wishes, but One Day he wishes that his Creator would Die, so that David would then be Free.
David was curious about these Creators of Mankind, and maybe wondered how more Superior are they to their creations, because David views his Creators as in-superior to himself.
David was in awe at the Technology the Creators of Mankind had, they were indeed Superior to Mankind but David can use their Technology and Understand their Language and when David finds out that our Creators are MORTAL After All.
David realizes that all these beings really had over Mankind was a Greater Life Span and Knowledge (Technology) and with the Engineers all Dead or so it seems, David would be able to Use their Technology and without those Engineers he would be GOD now.
Shaw just wants her Answers she has nothing to Loose and nothing to Fear, she would even maybe Face Death in the Face if it meant she could get her Answers.... She feels she is Entitled to know these Answers and wants to go to where THEY (Engineers) came from and hopes to find more of them or even THEIR Creators and Get her Answers.
David on the other hand may be interested in Shaws response and how despite what she found out in Prometheus, she still has some Faith left, she Questions Who created THEM (Engineers) and believes that GOD would never try and kill her, so she is in hope that who ever is the Top/Above the Engineers would maybe be more closer to her Faith.
I think David is in part Fascinated by Shaws approach and how she still holds on to Faith after all that happened.
David realizes the Engineers are Mortal, and that David can use their Technology and is maybe Immune to the Bio-Weapon that backfired on those Engineers. This makes David in effect More Godlike than those Engineers.
And so he would not doubt be interested in finding out What other Rewards and Technology those Engineers have, and he would wonder if they have Creators then are the Engineers Creators Also Mortal.
Because there is the Potential that David could realize that all the Technology and Knowledge the Engineers and their Creators have..... IN THE HANDS of Himself would make him GOD.
Shaw... at the end of Prometheus was pretty intend on getting her answers, she wants to go down to Paradise and Face these beings (If they find any) and get her Answers.
David... Realizes the Potential Dangers in this, he knows what those Engineers had planned for Mankind, he would be Cautious as to what Welcome they would get from More Engineers or even their Creators.
David realizes what just ONE of these beings was able to do to Him, and David is now Free, he has more he wants to learn from Life and Existence than to End up being a Headless Corpse.
David knows, he could easily learn how to use Technology, and Read any Records left behind by the Engineers Civilizations and so he would weigh up the Pros/Cons to trying to get information from a Civilization of Potentially Hostile or Unpredictable beings.
A Dead Engineer Civilization however would fit Davids Agenda and Pursuit to be the Supreme Creation, it would also allow him to maybe gain knowledge to some of the Questions Shaw wants Answered. Or so David could propose to her.
And so indeed it would make sense that David maybe lies to Shaw a bit and Persuades her that he can gain Answers she wants if they Destroy these beings, then he has a greater Chance to Answer Shaws Questions, he could even say he knows most of it already.
Leaving the only other Option to go down and attempt to Demand Answers from these beings and David can remind Shaw how that turned out for them on LV-223.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Posted Apr-18-2017 3:45 PM
Is this just a interpretation? because its the first i have heard of Engineers boarding the Juggernaught... not that it cant be ruled out.
This continues with SeanJohn's comment, indeed we dont know if that other Ship is some kind of Docking Device, and if David and Shaw attempt to land the Ship but then the Ship is then caught and brought over to that Docking Ship (like some kind of Tractor Beam) or other Automated Sequence.
David would then feel threatened knowing that they could be trapped by that Docking Device, and then be left with no option to unleash a Bombardment.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Posted Apr-18-2017 4:06 PM
@BigDave. Mostly going off what was said about the CinemaCon footage. It stated that the two ships connected and the Juggernaught was docked but still above ground. Im only guessing that some engineers didnt get doused in black goo because david had 2 fresh corpses to study. Im thinking these engineers boarded the juggernaut and crashed with David and Shaw. I doubt David overpowered them through other means or maybe they were already in that state? Cant wait to find out.
Posted Apr-18-2017 4:29 PM
I still feel that David would be able to learn all he needs about the Engineers from the ship he and Shaw are flying long before they arrive at Paradise... Through this he would give Shaw her answers she seeks. He can fly their ships, speak their language, surely reading data or accessing knowledge from the ship he is flying would not be beyond his capabilities...I feel they learn what they need prior to arriving and the plan with dropping the goo is formed after they make their discoveries from the ship
Posted Apr-18-2017 4:37 PM
"the gods have rejected mankind as cruel, weak and full of greed,” David then says in a voiceover. “They are a dying species, grasping for resurrection. So they are leaving the earth forever.”He continues, “But their power is an illusion. They don’t deserve to start again, and I’m not going to let them.”
i think ink this statement is not made in the movie during the bombing sequence but it's taken from a conversation later in the movie..... Perhaps David is telling Walter his plans for mankind right before he destroys Walter or uses him for his final stage experiments possibly. By this point in the movie David would have learned what the Covenant is and its plans to colonize. I feel he would infer that this is the inception of mankind searching for alternate home worlds planning for the day Earth no longer can support us.
i could see him delivering this dialog to Walter as he has poor Walter confined or trapped in his plan before he takes him over or shuts him down for his nefarious plans
Posted Apr-20-2017 11:11 PM
I agree that david may not be the instigator of an airstrike on the engineers, but david did knowingly infect holloway and did not care at all about the outcome, he is a proven deceiver. Using the black goo en masse is just the next step up the experiment ladder. As he is an android, why would he care about 'species' as a completely different form of sentience from living consciousness?
I think david does it, shaw buys into it because of something learnt along the way, and something causes their crash. Why david would leave shaw alone is anyones guess, maybe he doesnt as she has no defence against him.
the bigger question is, would an interplanetary species like the engineers have one planet as a homeworld? Would david and shaw have enough skill to sneak right up to them and would there not be an engineer retaliation from other bases or planets they occupy? One bombing and species over? Seems too easy.
Posted Apr-21-2017 12:07 PM
If David or Shaw did bomb the inhabitants below, why them are they all frozen in time like mannequins?
Is it possible a higher race 'nuked' them all from the Scorpion-Naught-ship with some sort of out-break controlling energy pulse?
IMHO - David bombing them all just to see what happens is a very lame idea. If David could just ride up on them & kill them all, how could they have survived as long as they have?
Sorry, but I am just not sold on the 'bombing' idea. To me, the screen shot of David in the bomb bay looks like a comic book drawing?
I just want to be amazed, again!!!
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