Alien: Covenant
One major thing that Cameron left out in ALIENS

One major thing that Cameron left out in ALIENS

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cmutt

OvomorphMember50 XPMar-24-2017 8:25 AM

There's one particular point of the original story that I have always felt was left out, or untouched upon in James Cameron's ALIENS film. And I honestly feel like it's an extremely important matter.

When Ripley is rescued from drifting in space in hypersleep, she is summoned to an inquisition by some form of Weyland-Yutani commission. 

Ripley is questioned about the whole Nostromo incident, her account of the events is recorded, and she argues with the committee over the presence of the xenomorph, the derelict ship, and the eggs that Kane saw.

And that's all! Nothing more than that.

She doesn't bring up anything about Ash, or the fact that the company themselves were the ones who were behind the whole conspiracy. She never challenges Weyland-Yutani for knowingly sending them there with specific intentions to bring back the life form, nor the fact that the companies secret order also made the whole Nostromo crew expendable.

That should have been a major battle for Ripley once she was brought back. When they were questioning her judgement and her whole story, she should have have easily snapped back with, "Hey, YOU should know... YOU are the ones who sent us there, and YOU are the ones who programmed Ash with secret orders to bring back the alien, and ordered our crew expendable."

But none of that was even mentioned at that point in the film. Only later on, when Burke sabotages everyone, does she begin indicting the company again.

Personally, I've always felt that this was a huge omission in that movie. And now considering the prequels, there is probably even more that Weyland-Yutani knew by that time. So I think it's gonna be very interesting to see just how much the company really did know, and also learn what was behind Weyland-Yutani's later decision to send just a simple commercial mining and towing ship, with only a simple crew, and the robot Ash... to investigate that original derelict ship.  

56 Responses to One major thing that Cameron left out in ALIENS

Sparkz

OvomorphMember44 XPMar-26-2017 4:18 PM

@cmutt  -- This is my favourite part on Aliens, yes Ripley want to explain what happen etc. but she not had proof. But most import thing, compony members do-not-want and don't believe that. And Ripley says, "what happened, why i was not here, your IQ's is drop!..." 

Also this sequence is a forward for Ripley angers and make-believe them and she went to Hadley's Hope. Also she left drive licence too.

I think it is just a sequence for more forward to begin action.

Nobody interesting about how much W-Y know about Alien etc. And W-Y is hard bastard, still says lies "W-Y make better worlds... incl. a alien for you"

 

Batchpool

FacehuggerMember357 XPMar-26-2017 4:21 PM

I have a theory based on Newt being found without a personal data transmitter. This might seem like an odd point to bring up, but please bear with me and I will elaborate.

What we appear to get is the summation of the ICC hearing. Ripley tells us that she has gone over her story several times. Who is to say that during all that time she did not try to defend herself tooth and nail and demand questions about what happened on the Nostromo. It is at the end of the hearing that Van Leuwen declares the case closed.

It would make sense that when the Nostromo disappeared, there would have been some sort of enquiry, and perhaps Ripley’s daughter may have fought to get answers. That is something we don’t know, but Burke certainly had the time to trace her. I think that once the case was officially closed this could have greenlit W-Y to assume their previous occupation of getting a Xeno. With the case closed why would any further investigation be needed ?

Meanwhile, back on LV 426 we have a shake and bake colony, the Derelict and no mention of any beacons. This could suggest that W-Y already knew the Derelict was there, and turned off the beacon. This brings me to Newts personal data transmitter. Perhaps Newt was not meant to be offsite with her parents, and perhaps left it at the colony base to give the impression she was still there along with Timmy. The site where the Derelict was may have been out of bounds, or referenced in such a way, that no one would really want to explore that area. We have no idea why Newts parents went to look in that area but they did. We can pretty much take a good guess as to what events followed. One thing that is for sure is that contact was lost with that colony, which I personally put down to sabotage. I’m guessing here, but my money would be on an android.

One thing I have wondered is whether the Sulaco was at LV 426 prior to picking up the marines and Ripley. I’m referring here to Bishops comments about the facehuggers being with them all the way. All the way from where exactly? From a previous trip to LV 426? We know there must have been a fair bit of time elapsed from the ICC hearing and Burke turning up on Ripleys doorstep since he reveals what she was now doing for a job and her psyche evaluation reports. Perhaps W-Y’s plan was to send Ripley out on a doomed mission to keep her quiet for good.

Rick

XenomorphMember1261 XPMar-26-2017 4:54 PM

Snorkelbottom, didn't we get into a arguement/debate about 5 years ago on one of my posts that you didn't buy into the whole ship shadowing the Sulaco?

S.M

XenomorphMember1234 XPMar-26-2017 5:09 PM

"We have no idea why Newts parents went to look in that area but they did. "

Yes we do.  Burke sent a directive to Hadley for them to check out a grid reference and the Jordens got tapped to do it.

"All the way from where exactly?"

LV-426.  It came with them after they escaped.

"We know there must have been a fair bit of time elapsed from the ICC hearing and Burke turning up on Ripleys doorstep since he reveals what she was now doing for a job and her psyche evaluation reports. "

It's about 3 and a half weeks.

"Perhaps Newt was not meant to be offsite with her parents, and perhaps left it at the colony base to give the impression she was still there along with Timmy."

PDTs are surgically implanted.

 

"But what I'm getting at, is that I think the company certainly knew what they were doing, and why they were doing it."

Yeah they knew about a transmission that detailed a potentially hostile organism.  Not much beyond that.

 

Another thing with these grand conspiracies regarding the colony - it was co-financed by the ECA.  If they really wanted an Alien, they wouldn't pair up with a government authority they'd have to share the find with.

Rick

XenomorphMember1261 XPMar-26-2017 5:27 PM

S.M - Newt could have been born at Hadley's Hope and thus no PDT implanted

Batchpool

FacehuggerMember357 XPMar-26-2017 5:33 PM

@ S.M

"All the way from where exactly?"

The bit I question here is whether there was a chance, I know I might be stretching it a bit, but was something on board prior to them escaping.

PDTs are surgically implanted.

This is something I have trouble with because, why should Ripley really need to give Newt a locator if a PDT had already been implanted?

If they really wanted an Alien, they wouldn't pair up with a government authority they'd have to share the find with.

Was'nt there something about respecting finding rights regarding the Jordans?

S.M

XenomorphMember1234 XPMar-26-2017 6:15 PM

"S.M - Newt could have been born at Hadley's Hope and thus no PDT implanted"

She was born at Hadley.  Why would she not have a PDT though?

"This is something I have trouble with because, why should Ripley really need to give Newt a locator if a PDT had already been implanted?"

So she could find her with the hand held locator and not have to use the desk bound computer that Hudson used.

"Was'nt there something about respecting finding rights regarding the Jordans?"

There was, but there would've no doubt been clauses in their employment contracts that would determine the Company, ECA, who knows who else, could make a legitimate claim to the Derelict and it's contents (with the Jordens getting a finders fee), since they financed the whole operation in the first place.

Some jurisdictions are setup that the government has certain rights to whats in the ground even on property you own.

chadsbrothermatt

OvomorphMember31 XPMar-26-2017 7:52 PM

Brego: thanks for the quote. The big thing to consider with that, though, is that that quote is not the original text from the Alien film. There was no indication in the film itself (that I am aware of) that the Nostromo crew were specifically tasked with bringing back a sample of some kind. It's also worth pointing out that the Nostromo being rerouted to investigate a lifeform and to bring back a sample still doesn't really demonstrate that the company knew about the existence of the xenomorph in particular, only that they were expecting lifeform - which they should, as what else would be emitting a signal out in deep space? 

To me, watching Aliens as if the company had known about the Xeno all along just causes more problems for the plot than it does to just ignore Ripley's line about "being sent there on company orders to get this thing". Of course, my mere opinion :)

 

chadsbrothermatt

OvomorphMember31 XPMar-26-2017 7:52 PM

Brego: thanks for the quote. The big thing to consider with that, though, is that that quote is not the original text from the Alien film. There was no indication in the film itself (that I am aware of) that the Nostromo crew were specifically tasked with bringing back the xeno from the start. It's also worth pointing out that the Nostromo being rerouted to investigate a lifeform and to bring back a sample still doesn't really demonstrate that the company knew about the existence of the xenomorph in particular, only that they were expecting lifeform - which they should, as what else would be emitting a signal out in deep space? 

To me, watching Aliens as if the company had known about the Xeno all along causes more problems for the plot than it does to just ignore Ripley's line about "being sent there on company orders to get this thing". Of course, my mere opinion :)

 

S.M

XenomorphMember1234 XPMar-26-2017 8:19 PM

"There was no indication in the film itself (that I am aware of) that the Nostromo crew were specifically tasked with bringing back a sample of some kind. "

Yep.  Ash was supposed to make sure it got back to Earth.  The others had no idea.

cmutt

OvomorphMember50 XPMar-27-2017 9:05 AM

"Yeah they knew about a transmission that detailed a potentially hostile organism.  Not much beyond that."

But we don't know that. We don't know what they knew, or how much they knew. If we go with just the ALIEN and ALIENS movies/scripts, then of course we will tend to lean on the side that they probably knew very little about whatever was out there on LV 426. But how can we say that absolutely? They could have known much more than they led on. Or they could have known just slightly more than they led on. 

Now that's not to say that they knew about xenos. My guess is that they didn't. But again, this was my thinking before the prequels came along.

Since Prometheus, we've all had to reevaluate our ideas and reexamine all of the possibilities. The prequels have now confirmed that at least some division within the company has known about some things for a very long time... prior to the events of the Nostromo and its crew. 

S.M

XenomorphMember1234 XPMar-27-2017 12:23 PM

Prometheus doesn't have anything to do with the Derelict on LV-426. If the Company knew more, they look stupid for not exploiting it.

Parkerparrot

FacehuggerMember205 XPMar-27-2017 1:43 PM

@Batchpool

"Meanwhile, back on LV 426 we have a shake and bake colony, the Derelict and no mention of any beacons. This could suggest that W-Y already knew the Derelict was there, and turned off the beacon."

In the "Alien-the illustrated story" from -79, wich contain some deleted scenes that never ended up in the film, someone in the Nostromo crew(probably Dallas) actually switch of the beacon when they leave the space jockey to investegate the hole in the floor.

I do not know what kind of material Cameron had access to when making Aliens, but maybe this could be an explenation to that the WY did not know about the derelict and that the beacon just stoped  transmitting. Maybe the only thing they knew was that the Nostromo was redirected and never heard of.

              "Bees have hives, man" 

S.M

XenomorphMember1234 XPMar-27-2017 2:19 PM

Cameron said the Derelict was damaged in a lava flow and that shut off the beacon.

Batchpool

FacehuggerMember357 XPMar-27-2017 2:25 PM

It seems to me that the most important components of proof for Ripley’s defence at the ICC hearing were not available. Lack of proof of the Xeno is certainly one important factor, but what I want to know is what happened to the beacon.

What exactly does a beacon do? What purpose does it serve? In Alien we saw it change from an SOS to a possible hazard warning. But it can also serve as a point of reference, a grid location, a means to locate something. At some point it would appear that the beacon was no longer detectable. Now that does not automatically mean it was turned off.

The Extrasolar Colonization Administration Rep was completely dismissive about Ripley’s claims. The ECA may be the governing body through which colonization of planets is overseen, but at the end of the day they are not W-Y. So from the ECA’s perspective, the Derelict on LV426 was completely off their radar.

"We have no idea why Newts parents went to look in that area but they did. "

Apologies for that statement, not really what I had in mind. A complete **** up. It was a bad call.

As rightly pointed out (S.M), Burke sent the Jordan’s to a specific grid reference. Now this is what I consider an important fact, because they were sent to a specific point, with no idea of what they might find. They were certainly not looking for a beacon, which if there was one there, would have made the job of locating the Derelict much easier.

I know there can be much debate as to what people consider canon, but I will just mention this as something of a side note. Alien: River of Pain, does mention that Newt’s birth was celebrated as the first newborn on LV426, and that the Jordan’s should have had an armed escort when looking for the Derelict, but ended up taking Timmy and Newt instead.

"This is something I have trouble with because, why should Ripley really need to give Newt a locator if a PDT had already been implanted?"

So she could find her with the hand held locator and not have to use the desk bound computer that Hudson used.

This I feel illustrates a very important point about transmitters, locators and beacons. They are only as good as the equipment used as a receiver. You are not going to find a signal unless you have the right equipment and know what bandwidth / frequency you are looking for. This is why I earlier stated that the beacon was no longer detectable. This also begs the question of how the Nostromo was able to pick it up. Someone or something, knew of the beacons existence, and that does not meant W-Y as a company knew, but possibly some faction within.

I know one assumption could be that the beacon was turned off, but I would prefer to think that it could possible be still on, just undetected because no one is really looking for it.(I'm deliberately ignoring Cameron on this point because i think AC could overturn some critical bits like this)

As a Mentat once said “ The first step in avoiding a trap is knowing of its existence”

Diz

FacehuggerMember127 XPMar-27-2017 2:26 PM

To answer the OP, I think that you have to ask yourself if just knowing "the truth" and blurting it out like a madman would have any affect against a mega corporation and/or the ICC.  The assumption being if you just stated what "really happened" the powers that be would have to sit up and take notice.  Perhaps this would be just jousting with windmills, and Ripley knew it.  Sometimes just knowing or telling the truth is not enough.  When the deck is stacked against you, do you fall on your sword, or do you cut your losses and move on.  If there is anything that I've learned in this life, it's that the rich and powerful write or re-write the history, according to their views.  Sometimes what really happened has nothing to do with it.

In this case, if Ripley had screamed her **** off, she would probably had been medicated, if not lobotomized, so I think she saw the writing on the wall and did a fade. 

Also I think there were secret factions within the company that may have been aware of the orders, but the vast majority did not.  So it was easy to play this off, and make Ripley look like looney tunes.  If she confirmed this accusation, by acting unhinged, she would have been toast.   

   

S.M

XenomorphMember1234 XPMar-27-2017 2:31 PM

There's three versions of the beacon being shut off.  Originally it was Dallas turning it off as per the script, novel and comic adaptation.

Then Cameron said the lava flow that damaged the Derelict shut it off.

Since none of these explanations was explicitly on screen, Isolation's version of events, where Marlow shut it off is the official explanation.

Parkerparrot

FacehuggerMember205 XPMar-27-2017 2:33 PM

@SM

Yes, Dallas switching of the beacon/signal was not in the final cut (and I don't know if this was a cut scene or "artistic freedom" when making the illustrated story) so Cameron could pretty much come up with anything that fitted his story.

              "Bees have hives, man" 

S.M

XenomorphMember1234 XPMar-27-2017 2:39 PM

The scene of Dallas turning off the beacon was written and I think it was storyboarded as well, but I don't believe it was ever shot.  There was other deleted material of Lambert using a tracking device on the planet to make sure they were going in the right direction (which was eventually used in Isolation).

cmutt

OvomorphMember50 XPMar-27-2017 2:54 PM

Like I said, many good and valid points from everyone here. That's what great about this, it gets everyone thinking a little deeper, and trying to come up with good, possible answers.

How about this as a possible scenario?

Pre - ALIEN

The Nostromo is chosen by a highly compartmentalized, secret division or department within the W-Y corporation to be sent to investigate LV 426. The company doesn't want to send full fledged science teams or military units because they don't want to draw any attention or notice. (For simplicity sake, I won't speculate on what W-Y knows or doesn't know about LV 426, let's just say it's only about the nature of the beacon. Although I believe they know more than that.)

The Nostromo crew members are cleared, but they're to be kept in the dark about the true nature of the mission. The cover story about intercepting the unidentified beacon is created to justify the reason for the rerouting of the Nostromo, and for gaining the participation of the crew. 

Most importantly, the company replaces the Nostromo's normal science officer at the last port before the mission... with ASH... a synthetic robot which has been programmed with all of their current data and instructions for the secret mission. 

Secret orders are: investigate life form, ensure return of organism at all costs, and crew expendable.

And we know what happens from there.

Now... after the destruction of the Nostromo, the secret division goes over all of the information that they have. 

-whatever they knew from before

-whatever information ASH and MUTHER had transmitted to them during the entire affair (and this could be an extensive amount of information)

- the last mission logs from Ripley

- they now know that a derelict ship was discovered on LV 426 with dead life form, along with a chamber full of eggs containing aliens, one of which attached to Kane, which later produced a larger, more hostile alien which was responsible for the deaths of the crew.

- and that Ripley escaped and destroyed the Nostromo and the alien. The Narcissus shuttle went off grid... Ripley's whereabouts unknown. (or maybe not unknown, just left to drift and hopefully never be discovered)

So W-Y now has all of this information. They are now dealing with the enormous losses of expensive equipment, and having to answer to the families and other various investigative agencies.

They don't want any info about the mission getting out, and they're afraid of losing out on whatever may be found out there. Maybe there's too much heat and too many eyes on them in the wake of the whole Nostromo business, so they decide to put a lid on everything. Maybe if they wait long enough, all of the family members will be gone, the investigation will have lapsed, and they'll be free and clear to dive back into it.

Maybe that's a possibility... just throwing that out there.

Parkerparrot

FacehuggerMember205 XPMar-27-2017 2:57 PM

@SM

Ah! Nice! That I did'nt know. This is why I like this forum so much. There's allways something You can learn from other participants!

              "Bees have hives, man" 

Batchpool

FacehuggerMember357 XPMar-27-2017 3:09 PM

@ cmutt

I’m certainly prepared to believe that W-Y could have some form of Black-Ops division. When you look at Alien:Resurrection and have pirates hijacking cryo-chambers, and doing secret deals with secret research stations, who’s to say that the source of W-Y intel, was’nt from pirates looking for a place to hide, but instead they came across the Derelict.

S.M

XenomorphMember1234 XPMar-27-2017 4:24 PM

@cmutt - the issue, again, is if they had all that information why do the never do anything with it? They could've waited a few years for everything to die down after the loss of the Nostromo, then mount a mission to LV-426 and clean up.

The fact they didn't tells me the bio-weapons didn't have any information about what actually happened on the Nostromo.

Batchpool

FacehuggerMember357 XPMar-27-2017 5:40 PM

@ S.M

There are a couple possibilities I can think of at this moment in time.

1 W-Y did not know much about the fate of the Nostromo, and Ripley’s reappearance was the only info they got at that time. It was only Ripley’s reappearance that led to the discovery of the Derelict.

  1. The ICC and ECA had the power to prevent any plans W-Y to be put on ice until the case was closed. It was Van Leuwen’s declaration of case closed that removed possible legal restrictions that might have been in place.
  2. Possibly both

 

For the most part I would lean towards your idea that bio-weapons had very little or no info to go on, but I think it is worth exploring other options.  

Centauri

PraetorianMember2267 XPMar-27-2017 6:42 PM

actually going to watch 79alien and aliens right now ; D ..long day at work....this is my bowl of soup tonight!

 

 

****

 "Must be something we haven't seen yet.."__Bishop

http://www.alien-covenant.com/series/

            

Introtech

OvomorphMember11 XPSep-17-2022 7:26 PM

Cameron was trying to tell a different story and didn’t want to open that can. Although the question is vital and needs to be answered. I personally think it would’ve made a good plot line for the third movie but we got a bunch of off-the-wall junk instead.

 Truth is the only information that the company had about the real fate of the Nostromo was held with Burke (Head of special projects) He was in possession of the analysis teams (Introtech facility in Japan) original final report. Introtech was W-Y go to for Air/Space disaster reconstruction and inquiry. Burke later obtained the Narcissus flight recorder from Introtech. All operational and diagnostic logs from the mothership (USCSS Nostromo)  were downloaded to this shuttlecrafts (Narcissus) flight recorder box.

Burke just heavily redacted information before conveying it to his supervisors. Burke also saw the opportunity to make some $$$$ and was going to take it!

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