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Why I Believe The Derelict is still Ancient

Why I Believe The Derelict is still Ancient

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ninXeno426

Mar-16-2017 4:03 AM

On a separate thread of mine,I elaborated on why I believe the Derelict on LV-426 is still ancient,but I believe it warrants it's own thread.One thing I've always believed when i watch Alien is that the Derelict must have been sitting there for 1000's of years,but recently with the revelation that The Covenant Carrie roughly 2000 passengers(to their doom most likely)it's spawned quite a few debates on whether they could be the 1000's of eggs in the Derelict's holds.The reason I don't believe this is one:How hell did an engineer end with 2000 human passengers.We also know he's likely the father of whatever may have produced all those eggs(maybe a queen,maybe not.)It would be pretty farfetched to think he birthed a drone and it eggmorphed 2000 people.Secondly,now i have no idea how far Paradise is from LV-426,but i think it's unlikely that he would have taken all those people their,though the general belief is that it crashed on LV-426.It's also worth noting that LV-426 is of course orbiting the same planet as LV-223,a planet(moon actually) we know for a fact to be testing grounds for the engineers and the black goo.It wouldn't be too hard to imagine that LV-426 could also be the same.After all it appears that the Derelict has been sitting there for 1000's of years,the space jockey looks pretty fossilized right?To go along with that,we also know that what happened to engineers on LV-223 occurred roughly 2000 years before the events of Prometheus,so if anything then the Derelict is quite possibly a ship that escaped LV-223 only for a previously impregnated engineer to give birth to a chestburster and crash on LV-426.It's also worth noting in the Peter Weyland files,that both Peter Weyland and David 8 we're aware of the signal broadcasting from LV-426 prior to the launch of the Prometheus mission.I believe this is regarded as Canon.So i don't think there is any reason to believe the Covenant passengers are the eggs in the Derelict.Only time will tell i suppose.What do you guys think?

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

21 Responses to Why I Believe The Derelict is still Ancient

PerfectOrganism937

Mar-16-2017 5:04 AM

I hope you're correct, but..............

In my searching, I have come to find that the Peter Weyland Files on the Prometheus Blue-Ray are not to be considered canon. So, with Ridley having "retconned" to Space Jockey from a mysterious alien creature to a giant humanoid Engineer, we can no longer say for sure that the pilot on the derelict is thousands of years old. The crew only assumes "it's been dead along time."

So, technically it could go either way.

Grinning & Dropping Linen

Mar-16-2017 5:40 AM

I hope the orginal derelict remains ancient and leaves a little of that old as time mystery to this franchise, i really hope you are right, i really really do....BUT

as @PerfectOrganism937 points out Ridley did do a bit of Retconning with the Space Jockey to make it a giant humanoid. If you look at the scenes from Prometheus where the engineer is in the chair and the original Alien movie, there is no way that is the same, but now Ridley wants us to believe the Space Jockey is the same?? i wish it had remained an ancient mystery, and he never gave us true answers, just little clues, just enough to create discussion and start the imagination running but it looks like he is going to explain everything....

I feel in my gut that somehow David infects the 2000 cryo colonists and somehow he transports them onto a Juggernaut. As David being a robot would have the patience to do such a thing, moving all of those colonists in mutating stages. That makes much more sense than as you mentioned a single drone birthing and mutating all 2000 colonists by himself. Ridley wont use the queen concept, i am almost certain of it, so it will be egg morphing or mutation...im almost certain of it. Even though i want the derelict to remain ancient , it just feels to line up in some ways and i think thats the direction they are going....he retconned or twekaed what we were to believe the Space Jockey is so perhaps he will retconn the age of the Derelict as well....

i prefer ancient evil sitting on a planet dormant waiting to be found idea myself but hey thats me

 

Shasta cyclone

Mar-16-2017 5:54 AM

I agree with you. As far as what Ridley said it could be that he is just throwing us off. He wants mystery and depth with a path of horror. I don't think he would take the easy way out not to have the derelict be ancient. I think there are a lot more pieces the puzzle and there is another race perhaps more that are part of it that has yet to be revealed.

FenGiddel

Mar-16-2017 5:55 AM

Hmmm...I have not seen that argument about the colonists becoming the eggs of Alien.  I'm not sure I would enjoy it, if that's the route they take with the story continuity.  Locks the whole universe into a much smaller continuum of possibility.  I do like the "ancient derelict" concept.  It's creepy, somewhat threatening, and mostly oh-so alien.  :)

Grinning & Dropping Linen

Mar-16-2017 7:44 AM

I hope they keep the ancient concept i just looking at what David is doing on Paradise, mixed with some of the leaks i accidentally read and just the simplest path, using logic and what not, i think David turning all the colonists into eggs is a considerate possibility. I mean why does the screenplay even include the 2000 colonists if they arent going to be a plot device of some sort? Just makes sense they will serve a distinct purpose....i dont think they will all be turned into xeno's on film as thousands of xeno's on film is very Michael Bay or AVP and not very scary, its more akin to Resident Evil type films and this is Ridley Scott, he wont do that, nor will he introduce a Queen...he will stick with mutation . I do know that in interviews Ridley has indicated that their is another being a higher level race than the Engineers at play here...so i hope the story works them in using an ancient haunting atmosphere, hopefully leaving some things unexplained because i feel the unanswered mysteries from Alien has served this film franchise better than answering everything and tying it up with a bow.

My hope is they keep the derelict being ancient, that somehow the "work" that David has been doing has awoken some far greater evil or controlling species of beings in the Universe with unimaginable power that brings some yet unknown horror to this world. They arrive because of what David has been doing and step in either to destroy or get control of the situation, either way i think they do this with ghastly results and thus expanding the universe and horrors while still keeping the existing terrors at play.

dk

Mar-16-2017 12:14 PM

nin

I actually like the idea of the juggernaut becoming the derelict with the crew as eggs- it just works for me and I don't care to follow the time lines. Your reference to the Weyland Files makes sense though if it is indeed canon. I know we have all discussed canon on several threads with canon being almost everything to only the original movie being canon.

BigDave

Mar-16-2017 1:28 PM

Well indeed the Evidence looks in favor of a Ancient event and you covered some of those points..... indeed Weyland was aware of the Signal to a degree.

Ridley Scott even made it clear of a few things.

*Engineer and Juggernaught are brothers to the Space Jockey and Derelict

*The Space Jockey was a Engineer

*The Derelict had been there for thousands of years

*The Derelict was a Bomber or at least a Cargo Ship that carried Biological Warfare and the Juggernaught had the same purpose.

He had then gone further.. over the last few years.

*The Derelict and Space Jockey had left for a undisclosed location.

*It did not get far, before the Pilot was infected

*Something in the Cargo Hold had evolved and got to the Pilot

*The Space Jockey Quarantined the Cargo by setting down on LV-426 and set off a SOS Warning to his fellow Race, but during the Landing he was Chest Busted.

*The event happened within a few hundred years of the events that wiped out all those Engineers on LV-223... and thus 1800-2200 years ago ... give or take.

When announcing Alien Covenant he even mentioned that they (Shaw and David) are off to the Planet of the Engineers, with another group incoming (Covenant) 

They discover David as the only inhabitant but there is something evolving on Paradise that They Created (assume Engineers) and we would find out who would create such Evil Biology.

Then again they could now be doing a U-Turn and they may refer to...

Engineers as far as the Black Goo, and it caused something evolving or David creates something evolving with the use of the Engineers Evil Biology.

Or They as in David and someone else? Shaw?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Mar-16-2017 1:32 PM

For every piece of clues that point to how David leads to the Derelict...

I can find in Prometheus many more that completely go against this, which indeed still applies even if we ONLY go by what the Movies show... so throw out Ridleys Comments.

*Mural shows the Engineers was aware of a similar Organism, either tried to create or created from it.

*Fresco did show a Egg, but this was not clearly shown on Film so maybe we can throw this out...

*The Space Jockey is much larger than David or any Human.

*If David created this and it ended up being a David/Walter or a Human in the Space Jockey Chair... then why would the SOS in Alien be something that is not a Earth Language?

*Then indeed we have the Viral sites but we need throw them out if we just go by the movies.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Grinning & Dropping Linen

Mar-17-2017 3:20 PM

i really hope they leave the derelict and the original Space Jockey being ancient....i didnt even like the Engineers being the Space Jockey as they are even too small and the original Space Jockey looked more skeletal than a suit but Ridley tweaked  that a bit

BULL ALIEN

Mar-18-2017 12:20 AM

you sure its 2000 and not 200? IMO I hope the Space Jockey ship is from LV-223 and has nothing to do with covenant. Turning that many people into eggs seems goofy to me as well.

We saw the crew but the passengers are another story. This timeline is too close to Alien for anything in this movie too effect the Space Jockey ship. With Ridley Scott making Alien Awakening plus a whole new trilogy after that we might get some answers then.

ali81

Mar-18-2017 12:21 AM

I for one truly hope ridley stays true to the original concept that the derelict and eggs r ancient. as said, it keeps mystery and many more possibilities for the alien universe open. having david be the cause lessens those possibilities and backs them into a corner. plus I don't believe it would be fitting to the original movie, which I believe deserves more than 'oh the android did it'. I for one, wouldn't be able to watch the derelict sequence in the same way ever again, would u?

BigDave

Mar-18-2017 3:22 AM

Time will tell... some clues and comments could mean the route they are taking now is a misdirection which would lead us to assume its David etc... but then reveal its not the case.

We really need to wait and see...

From the clues and way Ridley set up Prometheus 2 it seemed they was not going to go the route that David created those Eggs on the Derelict... all clues prior point to this not being the case either.

The Source i had hinted the Space Jockey event was Ancient and very connected to LV-223 and the next TWO movies would have given more clues to why such a event happened but would not have directly shown us the Space Jockey.... they also claimed David would be RE-CREATING and not CREATING.

Which seemed to be logical... as all we needed was for them (Shaw and David) to find out why we was created, why the Engineers was created, why was LV-223 created and then we would have answers to push us to the right outcome without showing us the Derelict prior to it landing on LV-426

And if David was to experiment and create a Egg, a Face Hugger and then we see a Alien birthed that is closer to the Xeno in Alien but different which include different Egg and Face Hugger but we are shown how this DIFFERENT Version is created be that by David or shown in a Ancient event..

Then we could again be shown how those Eggs could have came to be without having to show us how they came to be.

It would be like doing the Origins of Beer.... where we want to know how the Hell did Budweiser come to be..  If we was shown how the Origins of Old Ale came to be invented.... then in this we would surely know the process that Bud was created.... without us actually seeing how this was done... but instead a different tasting Brew...

If you kind of get what i am saying?

To me this seemed to be the route they WAS taking, but who knows now...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ali81

Mar-18-2017 3:30 AM

true BD, I do sometimes have to remind myself there is still 2, or at the very least 1 more instalment to go. I honestly don't think the direct link is going to be AC. I think they will go back to lv223 in a later movie as the deacon has still to be utilised and we may get a flash back scene of what happened in a further sequel

BigDave

Mar-18-2017 3:43 AM

Well it seems the Original idea was Prometheus and then TWO Sequels that could actually be kind of Prequels to a degree.

It seems they had to change things a bit due to the reception that Blomkamps Alien 5 was getting, and i think FOX and Ridley may have thought... you know what... seems Fans are just going to want to see ALIENS and eventually exactly what led up to the Set-Up for Alien as far as the Derelict.

And as Ridley said in a recent interview... "The Fans Want Aliens ill give them F---ing Aliens...."

To me this seems they was hoping to give us answers down the line and they did not have to give us Xeno Flick or Show the Spoon Fed Space Jockey Event...

But its about MONEY and if they feel they need to Shoehorn these things in to then get Fans to want to know more about the Engineers, then it makes sense.

As far as the Deacon... we dont have to go back to LV-223 to find out about it....

The Deacon is a event that can be replicated..

Via...

*Black Goo + Human Eggs

*Black Goo + Infected Male Humanoid + Sex

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ali81

Mar-18-2017 3:59 AM

true it can be replicated, but I think a lot of fans will want to see what happens to that particular deacon.

Ingeniero

Mar-22-2017 10:19 PM

I believe the juggernaut down on LV-426 was tied to the event shown on LV-223 in the hologram.

The Engineers must have gotten at least one ship off LV-223 during the attack shown below in the hologram and then it went down on LV-426 when the chestbuster took out the space jockey. My thoughts as requested above ninXeno426.

dk

Mar-22-2017 10:57 PM

I think it is possible the Juggernaut and Derelict is the same ship. In AC, it is there with lush foliage around and in Alien, it looks much the same with more desolate surroundings. I could be wrong but I think it is possible.

Shasta cyclone

Mar-23-2017 2:37 AM

where would the space jokey have come from with that theory? and the landscape is drastically different, forget the foliage.

dk

Mar-23-2017 2:43 AM

The land may have been scorched in an event that destroyed Paradise but the ship was unharmed. The SJ may be a pilot who never took off. It is not a theory- a hypothesis.

BigDave

Mar-23-2017 4:30 AM

Indeed there are a number of clues that point to the event being Ancient but who knows what route they would take us now.

As far as Paradise, i would doubt it would be located really close to LV-223.  The Source i had claimed it was about 600LY away but maybe this could change and also i cant guarantee the source is in anyway 100% Legit but i think its 80% IMO

Reasons for Paradise not being LV-426 or that system?

*Holloway is showing his findings and the Star Map, he said they found ONE System that Matches the star Maps and this System had a Star with a Planet that had ONE Moon that may be  able to support life and they arrived their that morning. We have to assume he meant LV-223

*David told Shaw once he worked out the broad strokes then finding the path to Paradise would be relatively easy, i would assume if Paradise was within the same System then this would be a odd thing to mention...

*If Paradise is in that System (LV-223, LV-426) Shaw would not need to go into Cryo-sleep... but then we dont know 100% if she had done so at any point.

*The Synopsis claims the Covenant is off to the far side of the Galaxy, which is a bit odd for a place 39LY away... then again Prometheus was off to the Darkest Parts of the Universe but i think this was in context to Sinister and not Distances.

*Daniels in the Last Supper said the Covenant is the Largest Scale and most Distant Colonization ever attempted but this could mean that never before has any such Large Scale (2000 Colonists) been attempted this far out.. which is as far as they was going... Original Destination is unknown.  And so even if this was far far far away, thats not to say Paradise is as far away.

*The Last Supper Prologue and some interviews seem to suggest once they reach their destination they would be saying Good Bye to Earths System for Good... where as LV-426 would take up to 2 years if the Covenant is as fast as Prometheus went or 10 weeks if its as fast as the Nostromo, and for a destination that would render it as too far to ever come back home (on a break etc) i would assume would have to be more than a years Travel.  Then again as with previous point, this could be regarding their Original Destination and not where they end up.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Grinning & Dropping Linen

Mar-23-2017 5:51 AM

@BigDave

While I agree with you that i dont believe Paradise will end up being LV426 for several reasons. I will play devils advocate using three of the points u placed above as reference, as its never certain what these screenwriters or Sir Ridley will throw at us:

*Holloway is showing his findings and the Star Map, he said they found ONE System that Matches the star Maps and this System had a Star with a Planet that had ONE Moon that may be  able to support life and they arrived their that morning. We have to assume he meant LV-223

 

On a related note, i feel that if they go this route, and i hope they do explore this, that the prime controlers and the beings higher than the Engineers and the instigators of it all are much further away in the darkest most remote and beyond study or analysis corners of the universe. 

*David told Shaw once he worked out the broad strokes then finding the path to Paradise would be relatively easy, i would assume if Paradise was within the same System then this would be a odd thing to mention...

*If Paradise is in that System (LV-223, LV-426) Shaw would not need to go into Cryo-sleep... but then we dont know 100% if she had done so at any point. 

$$$$-While they did find one system they thought matched the Star Maps found in the caves, its very possible that Paradise is the in that system, it just didnt fit the 5 planets configuration. That would be like us knowing for certain, from like a 1000 lightyears away that solar system the size of the Milky Way had no life on any any of its planets or moons. I actually feel that LV223, LV426, and Paradise are all either in the same system or fairly close to one another, for one why would the cave paintings point to just their military black goo testing facility on LV223?? Why wouldnt it point to their actual planet and place of origin? I feel that using the Cave Star Maps that Holloway and Shaw found the correct system or the correct vicinity of space but unluckily landed on LV223 where the black goo testing was taking place, it just doesnt make sense that the cave paintings indicated this location instead of the actual home planet of the Engineers or another similar faction of humanoid beings. And we already know due to the charred remains that Paradise was at least home to a faction of humanoid beings, so maybe Paradise is actually the location they intended to find in a nearby location rather than LV223, just makes the cave painting make more sense than saying "Hey come find us at our military outpost"

David probably did have to work out the broad strokes to locate Paradise because one all this is new, he is using data and information gleamed from using an ancient Alien dialog. For example when they leave the planet do they "turn right" and leave that solar system to go to the next one or the one after that or do they "turn left" and go deeper into that system to locate Paradise. It may not be super close like our Mars is to Earth but it may rest behind a larger planet at the outskirts of that system, much like Pluto sits at the edge behind Neptune and Uranus. Or perhaps there is a large gas giant like Jupiter hiding it and kept them from seeking it out instead when they becan their original journey from Earth on Prometheus? Remember this realm of the galaxy kind of was hinted at being unexplored in Prometheus, because Holloway stated "we found a system" if humans had already been in that system and were very familiar with it he would have indicated by name and announced it in another manner. I feel Paradise is far perhaps like Earth is to Pluto or perhaps this system is more vast than the Milky Way and its further away than that, but i feel that Paradise is in this system because they would have lucked on to LV223 otherwise as i still feel there is no reason the cave paintings would have indicated the Engineer military testing facility on LV223 insted of their homeworld or at least a location of their population or maybe the section of Engineers that were helpful. Because maybe their was different factions of Engineers, the ones on LV223 dont seem like the kind Earthlings would even know about because of what their purpose was, which was to destroy with the goo, so why would man paint cave paintings of these beings that destroy them, in actuality they wouldnt know if them as the Engineers on LV223 would just do their deed and kill everything, no one left to paint....now if there were a different type of Engineers a more helpful, peaceful type, less militaryish, as has been hinted at by rumor and speculation then perhaps these types did visit Earth and helped or assisted with ancient man in some way thus leading to the cave paintings, its just more logical in my mind.

Just possibilities and speculation, but after writing all of this out i think i just further convinced myself that the cave paintings did not indicate LV223 because why would they ...just sayin' 

 

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