Lindelof:Hero or villain
Posted Jan-10-2017 9:38 PM
This is a FREE FOR ALL folks.In my brief time here so far,I've seen differing opinions about the Prometheus screen writer.Was he a genius who restored a sense of mystery to the series,or was he just a bad writer who left too many glaring plot holes and ruined John Sphait's origanal vision.The point of this forum is to turn the guy into either a punching bag,or defend the guy as a martyr of sorts for redeeming the franchise.I personally am a big Prometheus fan,but wasn't thrilled about Lindelof's involvement(I hate Lost),im also relieved he's not involved with Alien Covenant and hope the collective talents of John Logan,Michael Green,and Jack Paglen can answer some of the questions Prometheus left me with.So have at it,have fun(make it funny if possible)vent your frustrations or praise the guy or whatever,and most of all don't take it to seriously.
Posted Jan-10-2017 10:00 PM
to me, ridley always wanted more movies and he probably has so many ideas and so much detail to show us that he knew it couldn't just be told in one movie. he has an audience that includes a younger generation than to those who first saw his alien masterpiece so Prometheus gets them on board asking the same questions the original viewers have been asking for over 30 years. Prometheus was really good in my opinion but is set as a movie to lead on to others so if this is the case I think it has been well written.
Posted Jan-10-2017 10:27 PM
Never watched Lost so can't judge. I thought his work on Prometheus was lazy in that it asked 'Did we come from Engineers?', answered it by the 49 minute mark, then asked 'Why did they want to kill us?' and never answered it. Never even gave us enough hints to make the conclusion terribly satisfying.
In addition there's too much back and forth between ship and pyramid in the second half and we get the sense we're not progressing anywhere. We keep revisiting the same locations.
I wouldn't call Lindelof a villain though. I still like the film overall and I quite liked his commentary track.
Posted Jan-11-2017 1:02 AM
The engineers creating us and wanting to kill us is in my opinion the least essential part of the plot because it seems to me to have absolutely nothing to do with the xenomorph.When Ridley made Prometheus he intended on whole set of films focused soley on the engineers(there was also some pressure from fox to create a new franchise i think)but when alot of fans expressed disappointment over the film(insert your reason here).Ridley i think took hard look at what fans really(that and perhaps intimidation from Blomkamps proposed Alien 5)and has decided to give both Alien and Prometheus what they really want,a proper Alien film that delves deeper into the alien mythology while attempting to connect the dots from Prometheus.Which thankfully doesn't require Lindelof.I'll thank the guy for bringing us the pieces,but i'll leave it to others to put it together.
Posted Jan-11-2017 1:40 AM
They keep visiting us after that though, without wiping us out.
"The engineers creating us and wanting to kill us is in my opinion the least essential part of the plot because it seems to me to have absolutely nothing to do with the xenomorph."
They make it essential simply by asking the question.
Posted Jan-11-2017 2:04 AM
I was mainly questioning how essential it be due to the possibilities of xenomorph having been around much longer than we think therefore not being created for our destuction but something they found and destroyed them.Although it is possible that if they did find them and there not created than they intended them for our destruction anyway.
Posted Jan-11-2017 2:17 AM
I agree Prometheus was supposed to be a stand alone film of sorts but was also supposed to set up the Alien franchise as well.Although looking at it as an engineer film and not alien has been my way of defending it from those who don't like or get it for years.
Posted Jan-11-2017 2:23 AM
I agree with a lot of things said here, but I do not concieve Lindelof as a hero or villain, just a seemingly nice guy although a bad writer. Lost, Prometheus and Star Trek ID to name a few examples.
To me Prometheus wasn't a very good foundation because like I have stated many times the story was a badly blended soup of plot holes, continuity errors, illogical events, silly characters and bad acting (except David) topped with hilariously bad plot twists and half-hearted fanservice.
I don't hate Prometheus, I dislike it and actually wished it was a fan-made standalone film with even less connections to to Alien. But like we say, it is what it is.
I absolutely loved the opening of Prometheus, as we followed David and his activity through the interiors of the ship. This is fine ambiguity.
However, as soon as the crew woke up I began to notice that something was not quite right and my reasonable expectations of a convincing group of smart explorers and scientists were swiftly blown away. And this was before the ship even touched down on the surface, in which the script would soon crash as hard as the ship into the juggernaut.
New writers now, does that mean AC will automatically be great? No but I'm pretty sure it will be able to tell a fairly consistent story much better this time while maintaining ambiguity that doesn't collide with the narrative, as expertly shown in Alien.
Posted Jan-11-2017 2:34 AM
s.m. I understand what your saying.I remember being confused myself with the whole don't call it a prequel thing and i think a lot of fans would have been less disappointed if they remembered that.I would have been interested if they continued on that path.Ultimately i viewed it as a prequel(what else was anyone going to call it)because it seemed to me there were a lot of intentions to explore the origins of the xenomorph.We got engineer film instead which i think a lot us were interested in any ways,ever since we first saw the Space Jocky and wondered what role it played in all this.
Posted Jan-11-2017 2:47 AM
Neomorph i never said he was a bad guy but was questioning his abilities as a writer,just like nobody call George Lucas a bad guy,but he offended an entire fan base thanks to the decline of his abilities as a writer as evidenced by the Star Wars prequels so he kind of became a villain to the fans for ruining almost everything they love about Star Wars in the first place.Lindelof does have a rather imperfect track record(in Star Trek I'll bet revisiting Khan was his idea).I do feel he brought some interesting ideas to the Alien francise,but the things you point out aren't entirely without merit.Thats what this forum is for.
Posted Jan-11-2017 3:08 AM
I never said or implied that you stated whether he's a good or a bad guy, because that's out of the question, I merely stated that I concieve him as a seemingly nice guy to prove that I do not dislike him as a person but as a writer.
Speaking of merits; if actions define who you are, Lindelof's merits should speak their own language.
Posted Jan-11-2017 6:44 AM
I don't know what idiot wanted to make a prequel series about the Space Jockeys and make it move AWAY from Alien. How is that even possible??? For me, Alien: Covenant is the sort of film we should've gotten from the beginning. Or maybe something more akin to Spaights' Alien: Engineers (which is a stupid title by the way).
Posted Jan-11-2017 8:10 AM
I have read both the script to Prometheus by Lindelof and the one by Spaight's and Spaight's draft is by far better than Lindelof's because of better characters, less stupid things, and a better connection to alien. AC will probably benefit from the fact that he isn't involved. The shitty things that are in Prometheus probably wasn't just his fault but he didn't make the movie benefit from his involvement.
I saw one episode of Lost and it seemed kind of boring.
As far as the Jesus part and the engineers I am not sure if that was his idea but that thing seems boring to me. Alien was never about the idea of Jesus was an engineer so cut that out.
I hope that we will get less ambiguous answers this time and better characters.
Alien 426: Yes it was stupid to move away from the Xeno. That is like making a Superman movie, put Superman in the back and to focus on Louis Lane, silly shit.
Posted Jan-11-2017 8:20 AM
Spaiths script could potentially make for a fantastic Alien film that would make better sense in connection with the first Alien film.
As I've said before, the whole picture should make sense continuity-wise. Not necessarily regarding the story but the themes present in Prometheus but lacking in Alien. Spaiths script seems like it was made to fit the franchise better.
Posted Jan-11-2017 3:17 PM
I think many of the concerns here can be mitigated by removing the term 'prequel'. In reality, Prometheus is in the same universe as Alien - that's it. End of story.
It would be very achievable (and I suspect, very well received) to explore the Space Jockey concept, moving away from Alien. There are connections between these things, but they do not exist to co-exist. Alien was about introducing the Xenomorphs, which happened to be found in a ship with the Space Jockey. Until Prometheus, that was the only connection. There are numerous paths/stories that could explain the Space Jockey, Derelict, eggs and how it got on LV-426 - from random bad luck through to the idea that Space Jockey = Engineers who made the Xeno.
Saying that every movie in this universe needs to be all about the Xenos/aliens is pretty blinkered. Who was the Space Jockey? Who are the Engineers? They are not defined by the Xeno, or the events of any film. That's like saying Weyland's story is only valid from the start of Prometheus onwards, given this is the earliest 'contact' with a potential Xeno connection. There's a massive back story there (the Company, Yutani, David's history, Vickers) that would be very interesting, irrespective of seeing any Engineer, Deacon,Neomorth, Facehugger or Xeno.
So rather than a Superman movie all about Lois Lane, it would be more like a movie about Krypton that may touch on aspects connected to Superman
Posted Jan-11-2017 3:51 PM
Spaights.... Spoon Fed Robotic Script..... basically read like reading a AVPR Draft.
Lindeloff == Genius.. great ideas... sometimes does not think how going for Clue A.. link with or contradict clue B, E or F etc... but to be fair the Alien Franchise Contradicted a number of things prior to Lindeloff... its maybe hard to have a movie carry on and connect and allow new Director and Writers to be expected to make sure every element will link together.. so a lot is oversight..
Lindeloffs draft also added a bit to many Goofy moments..
Lindeloffs draft needed someone else to come in and tidy it up and maybe add few elements from Spaights, make it have some ambiguity but add a bit more spoon fed clues of Spaights and we could have had a Winner..
I think anyone who reads Lindeloffs draft, then watches Prometheus would see his draft is actually not as bad as the movie turned out to be.
Wishing those around the World who finally get to see AC this week a very good weekend
Posted Jan-11-2017 3:55 PM
So Bottom Line....
Lindeloff is someone to go to get maybe some great ideas off... Maybe like FOX could do off Me lol
But then he is not the guy to then Pen the Final draft, it needed someone else.. but sure having Lindeloff to throw some ideas around is good.
Paglen seems to be kind of similar to a Lindeloff... were as Green seems to right more Robotic Spoon Fed Action Fodder... which is not far off Blomkamp to be honest.
Where as a Paglen and Lindeloff can throw you curve balls and ideas like Space 2001.... Blomkamp and Green give you a nice TMNT 3 or Gremlins 3 LOL
I think AC would be interesting because Logan is very good script writer....
I just felt they needed someone like him to had worked on Lindeloffs draft before we got to Prometheus.
As his draft has a habit of being a bit incoherent... where as a Spaights writing was more straight forwards and coherent.
So Spaights can give you a TMNT 3 movie thats straight forward and links up...... Lindeloff could give you a Space Oddesy 2001 with unnecessary goofy scenes and plot holes.
Wishing those around the World who finally get to see AC this week a very good weekend
Posted Jan-11-2017 8:13 PM
Don't forget he kind of blew Spectre.But for more redemption there's Hugo and The Aviator.I do trust Logan,as you pointed out,he's already worked well with Ridley Scott on Gladiator.Don't know much about Paglen.I know Green was responsible for the Green Lantern(never watched it myself,i haven't bothered with D.C. movies except for the Dark Knight Trilogy)but Ridley seems trust him since he's involved with Blade Runner 2049 and that seems to be on the right track.
Posted Jan-12-2017 12:27 AM
I preferred the spaights script but maybe his script gave too much away too soon for ridleys liking. I got the sense that lindeloff really felt unappreciated by the fans for his work and I cant say I blame him. ridley did what he could to get the die hard alien fan NOT to watch this film and start moaning it 'wasn't an alien movie' yet initially there was this huge backlash of disappointment for that very reason. I enjoyed Prometheus and putting the film into context of what ridley was trying to make it is a very good script and a good movie
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