Posted Dec-25-2016 9:15 AM
Will the uncharted paradise be LV-426 or not??
|79 Responses to LV-426 or NOT?|
That certainly looks like the Derelict in the trailer doesn't it. Looks to be in the same position and everything too.
I would say no.
LV-426 is a rocky moon with no indigenous life forms while the planet where the AC is taking place is full of forests,lakes,rivers etc.
And those derelict ships have different shapes.
The derelict on LV-426 is more U shaped while the other one from AC trailer is C shaped,and has hypersleep chambers next to the pilot chair.
Planet from AC
"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.
Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"
I don't know the subtleties of the two ships and figured someone who knows better would point out some differences. As for the obvious difference in terrains I was thinking some drastic events in this movie or the next could effect the planet in such away. Just giving out random ideas. What were your thoughts on why this could possibly be LV-426 123Engineer ?
As Nebula pointed out the landscapes don't match up. However, there is a way it could be LV-426. I will be covering it in one of my next analysis posts which will be going live soon. I've got a lot to post this week haha. But basically oneverything way it could work is if the planet is nuked in some way which forces the planets landscape and atmosphere to change drastically. But I'll be covering this in more detail soon.
So basically the temples would be destroyed as well....
and the huge mountains in that area.
i don't know. I highly doubt it's lv 426
LV-426 is in the Zeta 2 Reticuli system. So is LV-223. The planet David and Shaw were going to was NOT in the same system as the engineer planet that they just left.
Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!
I really don't think it's LV-426 based on the fact that the company will, 40 or so years after the events of this movie, go send Terraformers to LV-426 to process the atmosphere and colonize. They do this without any knowledge of the juggernaut or aliens being there.
No one checks out the derelict in Aliens until after Ripley's debriefing. And when they do it isn't on company orders, Burke acted alone out of his own greed for exclusive rights on any salvage formed from this directive. Ripley calls him on it and threatens his career basically in Aliens. He retaliates by locking her and Newt in medlab with a couple friendly facehuggers.
But anyway, what I'm getting at is that the company sends colonists to LV-426 without any suspect of anything goofy going on there. I'd think things would go differently if they'd already sent a colonizing expedition that way several decades earlier and lost contact. If they had they wouldn't have brushed Ripley's report off. They would have acted, not giving Burke his chance at greedily acting independently. It just doesn't add up to me.
None of this includes the fact that this planet in Covenant is lush with temperate climate and breathable atmospher. LV-426 shared none of these qualities until 20 years after Alien, and even then, was still not lush.
If the company had sent the covenant to LV-426, lost contact. Then years later an old space trucker woke up from hypersleep saying "hey, we picked up a distress call from that same planet decades ago before I fell asleep, then checked it out... and.. aliens... awful murdering aliens"
I'd think the company would go... "whoa whoa whoa, maybe there's something to this. We sent another expedition that way like, a long ass time ago, and never heard from them again. Now this chick says murdering aliens. Maybe we should check that out."
But they dont. They tell her she's a nut and close the file.
Burke tho, he goes..." man I believe this old bird... maybe I can get ahead if I'm responsible for this salvage... I'll instruct a family to just go check it out and see. If nothings there, no harm done"
I would say based on the terrain alone, it's not likely that the planet in Covenant is LV-426. I could be wrong though.
But, as is often the case in the Alien franchise, we can't say for sure at the moment!
LV-223 and LV-426 orbit the same gas giant. It's more than likely they are a long way from there in this film.
Check it out:
First: remember this? http://imgur.com/r/LV426/hm4SP
Some suggested that A:C might actually take place on lv-426, and that the derelict crashed there is the same one from Alien. I think they are probably different, and here's why.
Look what happened when I typed in "planet test" (from the infographic) into Mother:
So lv-426 could be a site where the engineers tested their black goo, recording the results in their manual, which then was discovered by Weyland, translated, etc. In this case, lv-426 is a different planet than the one in A:C.
LV-426 was a wasteland. This place looks like Montana.
I vote...not lv-426
Yeah, I think comparing the vegetation or atmosphere is irrelevant. LV-426 could have quite easily been lush with a viable atmosphere in the past. The Engineers were terraforming LV-223 - they could have quite easily done the same with 426. Given there is a major theme of 'creating and destroying' and 'history repeating' running through Prometheus, and likely, it's sequels, it is quite feasible that LV-426 was once terraformed (or naturally viable for life), and was at some point 'destroyed' (or nuked as @Chris says). It would also then be apt, and history repeating, for it to be terraformed again by humans.
I'm sure the decision to terraform a moon or planet is partly based on the right base conditions. LV-426 obviously met these conditions.
As for whether the planet we've seen in the AC trailer is LV-426.....probably not - however, the symbolism (the way it's positioned, the hole in the side) suggest that it's more than just coincidence.
Well, the juggernaut on "Paradise" can't be the same as on LV-426 since the space jockey is "fossilised". It's been there since about the time of the outbreak on LV-223 (2000 years). Must have been another juggernaut from LV-223 (there were more there as David points out). There might also have been other research facilities there (perhaps with xeno-eggs?).
More important facts: LV-426 is a planetoid only 1200km in diameter. It has a 2 hr rotation. there is no liquid water on the surface.. That's an incredibly short day/night cycle. There's no way life could ever have evolved under those conditions.
What about some apocalyptic catastrophe? It has an atmosphere. It's a shitty atmosphere but an atmosphere all the same with weather patterns and everything. Why is that relevant? Any event catastrophic enough to only leave 1200km worth of rock and boil all the water off INTO SPACE wouldn't have left any atmosphere behind. Nor would the derelict or egg chamber have survived such an event as it probably melted the crust. How can I believe it melted the crust? Because there isn't even any evidence that life was EVER there naturally. "It's a rock. No indigenous life."
Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!
Trying to think how to tackle this Topic.... the MUTHUR Viral site is flawed and has bugs and so as some questions the answer changes and sometimes random.. who knows if we can take it as 100%
So we go onto the clues from AC.... and we need to remember Ridley Scott could be setting us up for a Red Herring... a lot of fans was left disappointed that Prometheus never gave clear clues. And left us wandering does the Black Goo lead to the Xeno, does the Hammerpede or does the Deacon and how do they conflict with the Space Jockey and Ridleys comments on it.
Alien Covenant could be more the same really, maybe less Vague.. but still wont give clear answers to those questions... i would bet by the end we would not be able to confirm or rule out
*Paradise is LV-426
*The Eggs was created after the year 2094 or prior
*The Juggernaught is the Derelict
I think these will be left ambiguous. No clues to say definite NO and none to say definite YES to the above.
I think FOX will gauge the reactions to the movie and then can tailor the next movie to fit in with the AC events led to LV-426 and Derelict or are separate events.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Your argument about catastrophic events has one issue. It's not giving full consideration to the idea that the event may have been one that would transform the surface (and atmosphere) but not the juggernaut or it's contents.
Take for example a geological event. If at some point the lush planet we see in AC experiences an event where the entire outer crust suffers a network of breaches (leading to the release of magma across it's surface) you'd have the requirements filled for all vegetation to become encapsulated in rock. We know that if a caldera erupts (Yellow Stone for example) a nuclear winter is expected to accompany that event. If anything, this kind of event is perhaps the best candidate for turning a planet from the conditions we see in the AC planet to the conditions we see on LV-426.
Furthermore, if such an event were to occur, is it really that impossible that the external material the juggernaut is made of would able to withstand the temperatures? Even human ships would need to be able to withstand extreme radiation in space. If the engineers are as far ahead of us as is implied, they would certainly have materials that can withstand far more than human ships can.
I'm not proposing this is what happened. Just tossing it out there as a scenario that wouldn't necessarily destroy what's inside the juggernaut (or the ship itself.)
At the end of the day, there are available options to make the idea work. It may not actually be the case but it's going overboard to say there's no sensible way it could be done.
If we ignore MUTHUR....
Here are the clues that suggest Paradise could be LV-426 and also support the Derelict being there for thousands of years or not....
I would first like to negate the difference in sizes and shape, i know they are different which SM clearly point out.. but i am going to toss this out, because well Aesthetically Ridley could make mistakes and changes... We can argue the shape is different and size... but then the Egg Silo would also need a 4X bigger Derelict to hold it... and maybe over time the ships shape changes as well as how it appears.. maybe due to some Black Goo contamination who knows.... but i am not going to use shape or sizes at all...
So here are the supporting evidence for LV-426 being Paradise.
*The Juggernaught is in the same position as the Derelict (some event could cause mass destruction of Paradise including mountains within a short period we cant rule this out).... but such a event seems to leave the Ship intact... surely means even a Mass Nuke Event on LV-223 would not destroy the Juggernaughts there...
*Alien Covenant shows us the Eggs and Face Hugger, the Prop Hand had a tag "where it all begins" this is a tease that the events of AC as far as Xenomorph Origins is where it starts... but we still as of yet dont know if David created those Eggs or evolved something to get them.... or if they had been there prior or obtained from some place else.
*The Pot Luck chance the Covenant ends up there.... how can it detect a signal from David/Shaw or whoever if they detect this signal while they are on a different route and in-bound for a different place.. to then happen to be so close to then change destination... for example if the Covenant had been say 60LY into its journey and had 20LY left to its destination, then detect a signal that leads them to go to Paradise inside... its unlikely they would change route if Paradise was say another 80LY or so away... i would assume it would mean a detour of say 3-6 Months Tops... if not actually a lot less...
We dont know how the movie starts... the 4chan leaks claim they was heading too... and then actually land on LV-223 then change route to Paradise and arrive shortly...
So maybe having them head towards the Zeta 2 system then detect the signal thats close by could make sense.
Now here is the supporting evidence for LV-426 not being Paradise.
*If the Weyland Viral site for Prometheus is Canon, the company knew of the potential for that System to support life as early as 2039. Also a Easter Egg on the DVD/Blu-ray had it that the company had detected a Signal from LV-426 and that David 8 would be embedded to investigate it while on the Prometheus and no-one else not even Vickers is aware of this.
*The LV-223 Outpost, would be a bit on the Door Step of Paradise if this place was a Dangerous Bio-Weapons Facility but then maybe a separate World is good enough safety.
*When David informed Shaw that he could get to Paradise as he knows the broad stokes.. it seemed implied that maybe it was not as straight forwards as jumping from Moon to Moon... i mean otherwise he would have said... yes i think i can its not that far from here.
*Smoking Gun..... Different Pilot Chambers... the only image we have from Covenant (apart from leak Pilot seat only prop) of the Pilot Chamber is in the Trailer. And the ship they find on Paradise has the same layout as the Juggernaught in Prometheus with the Control Panel and Chair and Cryo-Pod clearly seen. Unless they are going to re-release Alien with CGI changes to include these in Alien... i fail to see how they can be the same Ship...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Indeed i think its a tricky one... but thats a explanation for sure, but i think for how serve the landscape has changed but no effects really to the Juggernaught is a problem... if such a event happens be it by Volcanic or other Geological Disaster or via a Nuke or something.... but the Juggernaught remains... it would leave a Plot Hole for LV-223 as surely what kind of event would be needed to get rid of all evidence of Juggernaughts on that World by the time of Alien or at least Aliens... unless its way more sevre
Yes something could effect the climate, the vegetation and make the moon baron but i think in order to get rid of the mountain ranges compared to LV-426 would require some pretty heavy event.
I think regardless... the interior of the ships are a Smoking Gun
This however can not rule out Paradise is LV-426 if the Derelict is located in a different part of the Moon. This is the same flaw that Spaights Draft had... that may had been a Red Herring too... while it was set on LV-426 and ended with a crashed Engineer Ship and Chest Buster... it never explained the Acid Burn Hole...but i guess the killed Xeno by the Engineer could caused it.
Spaights draft would also have to explain how the Nostromo or Hadleys hope never detected the Lifeboat or wreckage of the Magellan ship.... and then the signal that was sent at the end came from Pyramids and not the Juggernaught/Derelict.
But that did not mean that Spaights story took part on a different part of the Moon LV-426
And so yes they could go the same route with Alien Covenant... tease a Red Herring the Juggernaught is the Derelict.... but then in latter movies reveal that David found the Derelict obtained a Specimen and then set off to another part of Paradise... maybe this could explain why the Ship Crashed (Davids Juggernaught)
And so yes Paradise could be LV-426 if they show us the Derelict is crashed on another part of this world.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
i really hope not. if it is then it seems the SJ in alien wont have been there as long as we were led to believe in the original and to me that is hugely disappointing. I would rather it had been there for thousands of years and add something historical and mysterious to the link between engineer and the xeno. I think if the derelict is there due to events in AC then that would be lazy and weak writing and id say ridley would be opening himself up for more criticism than he ever got from Prometheus. we have been waiting 3 decades for this story about the SJ and the eggs to be told. going by the murals, there is a connection, millennia old, between the 2 and they could give us a more interesting and intimate insight into it
I will further add... while the interior to the crashed Juggernaught looks like the one in Prometheus.... it does seem to have had vegetation overgrowing in it and maybe this with Black Goo could maybe cause some changes? But this cant be confirmed..
There is this shot though.
Which is different to the interior to the LV-223 Juggernaughts and is very similar to the interior of the Derelict... however it appears to be dirt on the floor and so its more like the Cave System in Prometheus but with a Alien Derelict Aesthetic.
But of note is that the Juggernaught also somehow had some dirt inside it too...
Maybe Storm Event brought it in, and also caused the degrading of the Temple and reason for broken doors etc.. (as discussed on another Topic not long ago). Such a event that brings dirt into the Ship could bring Worms too and hence why i think the Worms could have lead to the Xenomorph.
Fassbenders comment about "as far as we know" to David and Shaw being alone on the way to Paradise... is a hint at something else and i feel the only logical explanation would be Worms had got on the ship.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Dont worry i think it wont be that case, too many flaws and contradictions if they went that route, not to mention a U-Turn on Ridley Scotts final explanation for the Space Jockey.. which i will cover now... not word for word.. but i can get the word for word if you want.
*The Space Jockey is a brother to the Engineers, his ship is a brother to those on LV-223
*The Space Jockey was leaving his departure to a undisclosed location but he got infected with the Cargo and did not get far, he had to then attempt to land and Quarantine the Ship and let off a SOS warning to his comrades that the Cargo is compromised. The Space Jockey got Chest Busted during the final landing phase.
*This event happened within a few hundred years of the Outbreak that killed off nearly all those Engineers on LV-223 some 2000 years ago... thus 1800-2200 ball mark.
*Something had Evolved in the Cargo Hold and it got to the Pilot.
But saying this....
after Alien Covenant if Fan Reaction seems keen on a direct LV-426 connection and David and the events after Prometheus leading to the Derelict then maybe they can show us the event as being latter and go against what Ridley had said...
As the only Canon really is on screen... and so far there is no 100% evidence that can say the Space Jockey and Derelict as far as on screen are thousands of years old.... looks old... but who knows..
Same as the Egg Morph and Elder Engineers could all be taken as non-canon if they choose to not explore them... as only what is shown in the Theatrical and DVD releases are 100% Canon.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Ridleys Comments thus point towards...
*The Space Jockey left with a Bio-Weapon but got infected on route... if this was from LV-223 to LV-426 thats a short journey for sure... to get infected.... he likely would have been infected earlier... unless he landed the ship way before getting Chest Busted...
Then the Engineers went back to the drawing board over the next few hundred years to re-weaponize the Xeno for a more safer Weapon... The LV-223 Experiments.
*After the Outbreak some Engineers got to there ships, in a attempt to escape from some outbreak.... some sadly never made it and was Chest Busted... (The other 3 Engineers on the Juggernaught) but one survived in his Cryo-Pod unaffected. Only to be woken up by the Prometheus expedition 2000 years latter.
The Space Jockey attempted the same, but he suffered the same fate as the other Cryo-sleep Chest Busted Engineers, he was not as lucky as the Last Engineer, but he did manage to put his event on hold.
Somehow after a 200 year or so slumber he awoke and then set off to carry on his mission.... only he was infected... Thus our Last Engineer simply never set his Alarm Clock...
The Outbreak could have led to the infections as something on LV-223 had got infected and Evolved.. Black Goo... or something had got aboard and infected the Cargo or the Cargo infected something that got aboard the Derelict and maybe LV-223 Juggernaught after the Engineers had gone into Cryo-Sleep but only enough to infect just 3 Engineers on the one ship and Space Jockey on his....
The last option seems to fit the bill more....
However there is still the discrepancy mainly in the Aesthetic of the Derelict and Juggernaught interior more than anything... yes they look different outside but internally they are very different.... which may support a 200 year prior to the LV-223 Outbreak event.
Which maybe would be if the Space Jockey had gone to use the Eggs on the Engineers of LV-223... or something and deployed his Pay-load... then left but got infected too.
The surviving other Engineer Faction... then re-weaponized the attempted Bio-Weapon attack and maybe then intended to use it on the other Engineers or their creators.
Those TWO right now are the most likely theories for the Space Jockey connection...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I honestly don't think Ridley cares about replicating the scenes and props to an exact t. I read somewhere he decided to make the engineer ships rounder than what was seen in Alien because he wanted it to roll to make the crash scene work.
If he's willing to do that, I don't expect him to make anything visually identical for the sake of continuity. I think he expects viewers to realize that's just not a type of continuity that needs to be strictly adhered to. He has many options these days for set design that he did not have in Alien. I'm sure he's excited to take advantage of the new tech and the bigger budget.
In regards to obliterating mountains, I actually had discussed this in another thread on a similar topic. I'm not convinced either Alien films show us a clear enough picture of the area behind the derelict to say with certainty there are no mountains or leftovers of mountains.
I made this image to demonstrate that there appears to be something behind the ship that resembles what we see in AC (though it is difficult still to say for sure because of all the fog)
In my previous post after sharing this image, it was then proposed that Aliens rules this out (based on the idea that the shot of the derelict in the Jordans scene shows no mountains) but I wasn't able to agree (again because the fog obscures far too much and then there are questions about perspective and angle.)
Outside of this, let's imagine that the appearance of mountains through the fog is just a visual illusion. That still doesn't rule out that mountains were once there. Let's assume there was an event where magma flooded the surface of the planetoid (a concept made even more interesting by Cameran's supposed claims that some ruptures to the derelict were damage from lava). If the derelict had been floating on the lava, the mountains in AC could have largely been encased in what would eventually become rock while the juggernaut (from floating) would be left at a higher altitude once the lava cooled to rock.
Really this is just playing with problem solving and again I can't say it's Ridley's intentions to go this route. My aim here is that if we are to rule the idea out, our reasoning should be impenetrable. So far I haven't seen an unshakable argument as to why they can't be the same planet.
yeah, I know ridley has stated the assumption we were given in alien, that the derelict had been there a very long time, was exactly what was meant, but im worried he changes for the flow of the trilogy. wev waited 30+ years for these answers and to go down the route that lv426 is paradise and the derelict crashes only 30 years prior would, imo, anger soooooo many of his loyal followers and I for one would never watch any subsequent alien films in future. its like the disappointment of discovering the secret to the most amazing magic trick uv ever seen as a child isn't full of any form of mystery (I know this is the case anyway but using it for an example), the waiting all these years, fans on these forums coming together just for it to be 'david caused it all 30 years ago'.WTF?????? I truly hope he goes deep into the history of the engineers/ xeno connection, I think he owes the die hard loyal fan that after all these years of waiting for the conclusion of the story to the derelict and SJ
It was foggy in Alien and hard to tell.... in Aliens was a bit clearer but only on the Directors cut...
The Derelict Prop on set had smaller rocks and no big mountains but then the back drop was to be painted in after and was a foggy environment and so yes there could be larger mountains obscured and not seen but there.
The Derelict is Fatter and Smaller though.. but again this could be a Aesthetic that can be ignored and we are to assume they are one and the same... or some event could cause the ship to change a bit over time... if we consider it to be kind of Plant Like rather than Mechanical.. or Bio-Mechanical.... HR Giger seemed to imply they are more Plant Like and Grown.
This could explain why it looked different over time... but surely 18 years is a short space..
I think Aesthetically internally as far as one ship being more Organic and the other Mechanical is a flaw, but maybe they can explain this away.
I still think the Biggest Flaw is the Pilot Chamber, and how the Derelict had no Chair, Control panel or Cryo-pods... yet the Juggernaughts do.
This is a serious oversight... but Ridley has done this a number of times as far as Space Jockey and Engineer size etc... but surely the different Pilot Chambers is a stretch to far unless Ridley is being Lazy, Stupid or thinks we are too lazy or stupid to notice..
Ideally he could have shown the Ship Shaw and David leave on has a different Pilot Chamber layout... thats more like the Derelict if he was going this route...
I think they are giving us a Red Herring... but one they could turn into the real connection if they feel this pleases the most Fans..
Right now i would bank on it the Juggernaught Shaw and David left on and we see in this movie is not the Derelict... Unless the one we see externally in the trailer is different to the one we see internally.
I cant rule out Paradise being LV-426 as i forget to mention Ridley did intend before AVP came out to do a prequel and cal LV-426 Paradise...
But i will think the Derelict and David and Shaws Juggernaught are in no way the same ship... i am 99.99% certain it would not be the case.
But who knows what Ridley would do and show... if they go this route then AC will be a bigger disservice as AVPR was to AVP.
Unless Ridley intends to Retcon Alien.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Is it really worth it? If Ridley did change his mind and go with a different idea, is that really worth dismissing the whole thing? Imagine everything else about these films is pretty great. Does one failed expectation have to ruin the whole thing?
Furthermore, IF Ridley did take us in the direction of the AC planet and juggernaut being LV-426 and the derelict, does that really lock him into the idea that the engineers/SJ and the xenos don't have an ancient history?
I for one prefer there is millions of years of history between engineers and xenos, but Ridley doesn't need to have the AC planet = LV-426 idea cancel out such a history. If he did that it would be silly.
I agree. id go as far to say if he goes down the 'paradise is lv426' and 'david caused it all' route then hel damage alien. for me hed do more damage than the avp crossover ever did. id never be able to watch the derelict scene in alien again with the same mystery and intrigue knowing just 18 or so years prior it was all because of a wayward android
The Source i had back in February 2015... who mentioned a lot of stuff based of Greens Draft (which i cant say is 100% Legit) but so much has came out that adds up, at a time when no other place had mentioned so much included multiple Davids and Two Monsters.
This source claimed the Derelict is a Ancient Event very related to Prometheus as it had the clues all over it but in a vague way.
They claimed P2 David would re-create something and in order to re-create the Xenomorph (or related Origin) all you needed was the Tools and Knowledge and David has both.
They also said Paradise was far away (600LY) and near the Serpens/Ophiuchus constellations.
AC mentions Paradise is on the far side of the Galaxy and well Zeta 2 at 39LY is not what i would call far... but then Prometheus LV-223 was the darkest parts of the universe lol but then it could mean as far as Sinister and not distance.
If the source was true or not who knows... if they was... things change... Logan has re-wrote that draft 3-4 times they claimed... and re-writes can change a lot..
See Spaights to Lindeloffs LV-426 to LV-223.
But i think Paradise is not located near LV-426
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
ok, one fact about LV-426 always stuck with me for some reason....in Alien, when they are analyzing the "planetoid" they say its tiny. Only 1200km across.....thats really small. How can you send colonists to that speck?
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