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PARADISE

PARADISE

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BigDave

Oct-19-2016 10:04 AM

I would like to start a Topic to discus Paradise, as we are aware this is the Term that David said Ancient Mankind would have referred to the Homeworld the Engineer who spoke to David had said they are from.

Paradise

In context to David's conversation with Shaw is pointing towards many Ancient Cultures telling of a place of Creation, place of Gods sometimes the Place of Afterlife (for the Virtuous)...  but in almost every instance its depicted as a Place of Peace, Harmony and Visual Beauty a lush Green and thriving clean environment.

The Abrahamic Religions ( Judaism, Christianity and Islam) attribute Paradise to be the Garden of Eden and so the Cradle of Life as regards to the Origins of Mankind and a Tranquil Garden with various Plants, Crops and Trees.

I think as Ridley Scott had made Biblical Connections in Prometheus then the Garden of Eden plays a role in Context to the Plot... like wise the John Milton Paradise Lost Poem.

But we also have Greek Mythos that played a role in Prometheus and the Greek Equivalent of Paradise is the Fields of Elysium.

Both depictions if you look at many images are very similar and in context of the Alien Covenant movie, then the New Zealand and Western Australia Shooting Locations are just fitting.

The image above is a perfect representation of the area where Alien Covenant had been shot, and this image fits very much with the image i chose from the Garden of Eden and Elysian Fields

The image from Fjords New Zealand does represent the Paradise that the Covenant Crew was hoping to discover, a tranquil world with all the ingredients to start a New Life and Colonize without the need for any Tera-Forming a Perfect Paradise as Earth was prior to the Dawn of Mankind.

The first part of this Topic is to show how indeed Paradise Looks represented, not only from the context of how the Garden of Eden and Elysian Fields are depicted and how they fit in very much with the Landscape of New Zealand Fjords and this is the kind of Paradise World the Covenant Crew had hoped to arrive at, as detailed in the Synopis....

But of course this World is not Empty as maybe the Covenant Crew had maybe thought it would be.... Yes we have David as the Sole Occupant but i dont wish to dwell on David in this Topic, or the Evolving Creature.

I would like to imagine what this place was like many Thousands or Millions of Years ago.... This place was the Homeworld of Sorts of the Engineer Race and maybe there Ancestors and i think its no Coincidence that the name and connections to Paradise Lost have been made.

Paradise  was the proverbial interpretation of the Garden of Eden and Elysian Fields.... a Place that was the Cradle of Life, and a Vision of what awaits in the After Life.

But it is also the place where the Cradle of Life Originated from at least in context to our Galaxy and the Franchise.

But what else is Paradise Like?

It certainly was a Place where our Creation as far as Creators had held their maybe once Humble Roots, a Place surely where these Godlike Genetic Engineers and their Hierarchy had dwelled from and Plotted and Planned Creation from.

Where is Paradise? What does it look like now? and What did it look like before the Great Rebellion/Fall.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

40 Responses to PARADISE

BigDave

Oct-19-2016 10:34 AM

The Synopsis states Paradise as "a remote planet on the far side of the galaxy"

The Galaxy is a Large Place and we cant take the Synopsis as being Exact, as Prometheus was bound for a Planet the Darkest Reaches of the Universe (Dark could mean as in Ominous and not Far Reaches).  But back to the Synopsis and far side of the Galaxy which could put Paradise as being upto 75'000 or more Light Years away.... so surely  well over a thousand times further than LV-223 and LV-426 is where the Far Side of the Galaxy lies... surely too far from a Earth Ship to reach within less than 10 years especially if the ship is older than the Technology we see with the Sulaco...

Maybe not too far for Engineer Technology, unless Davids ship has left open a Worm Hole of Sorts?

So we dont know much about Paradise.... However the Source had passed on information Months prior to even the mention of Alien Paradise Lost, never mind Alien Covenant.

There claims as far as Paradise was interesting but something that i just had to take with a lot of Salt..... but then with the announcement of Alien Covenant maybe things add up?

I can not for certain be sure the Source is even 1% True... but they touched upon Paradise as a month after the first set of information and so it was first week in April i had found this information.

*Paradise is a Earth Like World, that is like 3-4 Times Larger than Earth.

*In the Concept (claimed) depicted a World that was very watery but also had lots of Green, it however looked very green as far as Atmosphere and they said pretty much looked similar to how the Klingon Homeworld Q'onoS looked like from Space.

*Paradise is located towards the Galactic Center... (at first i thought they meant Center of the Galaxy some 26'000 light years.. but latter comets put it much closer... so they must have meant near the Galactic Equator.

*Paradise is located in/near or past the Constellation of Ophiuchus (Serpent Bearer) and is about 600 Light Years away or 600 Parsecs but they said they are sure it was Light Years.

*On the way to Paradise,  there are many Nebula and in the background could also be seen The Pillars of Creation
Nebula (Eagle Nebula) which is in Serpens which is the Top of Ophiuchus

*They claim that Paradise is actually not the Engineers Homeworld but just the Headquarters if you would for our Galaxy which points to the Engineers being more than bound to our Galaxy (the Juggernaught Navigation Map displayed other Galaxies).

*They claim that Paradise is not Paradise no more and is more like Hell, and thus became Pandemonium.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-19-2016 10:54 AM

I did not know how to take this information.... but Months latter when we got the Synopsis and Start of Alien Covenant, it could fit the bill....  

What i find interesting was they described the World as like the Klingon Homeworld as far as Atmosphere seen from Space and its appearance and how its located past Nebula's....    Then we get the Covenant back ground image that shows us clouds and so like Nebula and Green Colours

Anyway it was the other day i thought about doing this Topic and looked into the potential for Earth like Worlds in Google..

And Kepler 22B Stood out to me as it looked just as the Klingon Homeworld is depicted from Space.  The Source had said the World looked like its Attmosphere was Green a bit, but the World appeared to be Watery... which means more proportion of Water to Land than Earth?

Here is Kepler 22b and from these images indeed it looks 3-4 times size of Earth.... its also about 600LY Away...

We have to remember Mass is not the same as dimensional size, a World can be in Diameter 3-4X Earth but the Mass would be more than that.  Kepler 22b is also temperate like Earth..  so Scientists claim.

However Kepler 22b is located in the Constellation of Cygnus and not  Ophiuchus however Cygnus is connected to Orpheus in Greek Mythlogy could the Source or person who relayed Source information to me (as i have no direct contact) had simply gotten the Ophiuchus and Orpheus  mixed up?

Or could Paradise be a World similar to Kepler 22b but not the same World but one located in the Constellation of Ophiuchus?

The more i dug into Ophiuchus it made connections with the Place from which Gods Dwell,  a Place Associated with Serpents and Healing and even the Key to Immortality.

Someone on here not long after i revealed this information before mentioned that Ophiuchus in context with Satan is mentioned in Paradise Lost?

While the last two posts are about the supposed Source information i dont want to turn this Topic about the Source as it could be merely coincidental?

But i think the broad themes of Paradise are worthy of debate.

We know that New Zealand Shooting Location is in area sourounded by a lot of water... and CGI could be added to change the appearance of the Atmosphere and so it would be interesting to see what Paradise Looks like eventually.

Maybe when the Trailers come out we can get a glimpse.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Oct-19-2016 10:05 PM

As Ridley said recently the most difficult thing is to get a good script once he has one like the Martian he can pick it up and run with a high degree of certainty.

Whoever decided (John Logan possibly) to use the original theme of a fallen Paradise but to present it in a more orthodox manner creating a legitimate reason for the incoming Covenant, gave the story its back bone and momentum.

It also lifts the franchise away from the over familiar. The ship may feel more grungy (echoing Alien) but for an A L I E N movie to be set on a pristine world with ruined temples and a fabulous "lost" civilisation pulls it toward the broader appeal of the Star Wars films.

In an sense it will also mean once the crew get inside the internals built in the studios in Sydney it will have a great artistic juxtaposition between primordial beauty and the gothic twisted horror they discover hidden inside.    

BigDave

Oct-20-2016 7:45 AM

I would assume those themes had been in place prior to John Logan i would safely assume he was brought in because the draft they had was going for a lot of detail and history regarding the Engineers as the movie was stepping away from Alien....   i would assume after the interest that was showing for Alien 5, Fox have had a change of plan to now go back to cover the Alien connections more...

This essentially could be the same reason Lindeloff was brought in for Prometheus... Fox wanted to tone down the more direct Xenomorph connections for something a bit different and they tasked Lindeloff to tone down and change things to be less Alieny but still cover it in parts but to explore the other Plot Device which was the Engineers, to set up a Prologue movie of sorts to then further explore the Engineers.

If Paglen and Green Draft was a bit to complicated and had a lot of themes and elements but little as far as story telling and connections to Alien.... i think they wanted to disect some of the movie and cut down the Engineers a bit to explore the Xenomorph more and present it in a new movie that would cover in some parts what they was attempting but introduce the Xenomorph connections sooner rather than latter or if at all and they also wanted these changes to be built into a story that would flow better and so thats when John Logan was brought in to patch up the parts they wished to keep and wove it into a new fabric that connects to Alien more.

The Paradise Lost connections and themes are something i felt had been there for a while.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-20-2016 8:04 AM

You do touch upon the interesting thing of while surely we may arrive at a place that is perhaps a Lost Civilization i think it would make sense that as they explore the ruins... they uncover a lot of Horrors.

I have a feeling these would be related to the Xenomorph and Evil Experiments that led to such a thing.....  i think as the Engineers are connected and Ridley has teased that in order to create such Evil Biology you have to be thinking what Race would create such a thing and so we could be getting seeds still of the Engineers involvement in some sinister Agenda.

We cant be 100% sure where they are going with this though, hopefully in time more clues would come to light but Fassbender says this movie has the scope of Prometheus but brings back the Horror or Alien.

So regarding this Topic....

We have to wander is Paradise merely as in the Biblical Garden of Eve, where it was a place that God (Gods) created so that a favored creation could dwell but there was a fall and who ever this place had been intended for had been kicked out of Paradise....   i think in context to Paradise the Greek side would take a back seat as the tale in Paradise Lost may hold more relevance.

They are going for this place being where the Engineers came from, this is interesting and so depends where we are supposed to look at the Engineers....

Gods? And so Paradise is the Proverbial Heaven

Or a Creation whom Paradise was meant for them... but after a Rebellion and Fall,  some where kicked out of Paradise and Punished.

Regardless i think as far as this Topics Agenda... which is to paint a picture of.

*What does Paradise Look like.... Now and in the Past

*What Purpose was Paradise before any Fall.

*What role did the Engineers play in Paradise

*Was Paradise intended in anyway for Mankind.

So it would be interesting to see how vast or small Civilization upon Paradise was.. how vast maybe was the Engineer Empire but i am not sure we would get much detail of this.

But certainly we would get clues to what state their culture is now.

I doubt the Engineers Homeworld ever became as Populated and Advanced as far as Mankinds over population and construction on Earth....

I would think they had pockets of small cultures like how across the South Americas we had various Ancient Cultures like Aztecs, Mayan and Olmec's.   And if we removed all history of modern mankind from those countries and all we have is the Ruined Remains of what was once those Cultures.

I think this is the Paradise we could arrive at... i dont think Paradise was heavily populated place by Millions...  i think having pockets of Ancient Settlements like Mayans, Incas, Aztecs had would fit the bill more.

And while these places may or may not be in good condition, i feel the Engineers on Paradise may have had Ancient Architecture look to their culture but within these Temples and Pyramids or indeed beneath them would hide a more Technological Advanced Culture and Horrors.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-20-2016 9:03 AM

As far as what we would find as far as remains of any culture and appearance of Paradise i think the Production Crew could give us a few clues.

Geoff Kemmis, Wayne Haag, Evan Shipard and Nadezda Kuzmina are most likely the biggest inspirations to how we would get the look and feel of what Paradise is like.

Geoff Kemmis has designed some interesting sets and his previous work he deals a lot with Ancient Looking Buildings and Decor...

I think he is one of the key elements to the appearance of what ever the remains of Ancient Engineer Architecture is found and i would think no doubt he would be making the Models of such Ancient Ruins and Architecture and in particular interior designs and props.

Wayne Haag has done a variety of works, but i think some of his work in the past could fit into his work in this movie as he also has designed Ancient Looking sets both externally and internally and i would imagine him and Kemmis have worked very closely regarding the Alien Covenant sets... especially internally... as far as the interior look and feel.

Evan Shipard also has worked on designs of sets that could depict Ancient Ruins and Ancient Cultures but also he has worked on the designs and Matte Paintings for some very Jungle like Backdrops.

Nadezda Kuzmina (Nadia Mogilev) has done various work in the past, but some of her concept works are to design the look and feel of Jungle Landscapes and she did a lot of design work on Jungle Book.  I would think she and Shipard had worked together to give us the outer look of what this Paradise World looks like and what remains of Engineer Ruins lay under the undergrowth of Paradises Jungle Plant life.

So i think these 4 would play a role into maybe what we could see on Paradise...

I would assume we would be seeing something similar to the derelict and abandoned Ancient Mayan Civilizations that are in part lost beneath the overgrown Flora of the jungle terrain. But i think some Ancient Roman/Greek and Egyptian influences would play a part in the look and feel too.

Externally something like this with hint of Engineers designs to it...

Internally i think we would see a semi ruined look, but i would hope to have Murals, Carvings and Monuments dedicated to their fallen culture and other dealings.

And would this not be fantastic... seeing the Jungle overtake some of the Ruins.... or is this the Jungle or something else we have seen in the Franchise?

So whats everyone's thoughts and hopes for the look and feel of what ever remnants of the Engineers Fallen Civilization would they like to see?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Oct-20-2016 12:54 PM

From the spoilers it is clear their is going to a very strong connection with the elements introduced in Prometheus.

For me so the grand story moves forward i want the fact that he is reintroducing motif's from LV223 to lead to locking down some answers. The new story should make clear the relationship between LV223 and the Engineers Homeworld and whether Janek was correct.

On your point about the concept of a fallen Paradise. It has always been clear form the very beginning that Shaw and David would not find Paradise in the traditional sense but a live fallen wicked Engineer society where machines were used in a symbiotic way. (the matrix riff).

My point is that the concept of the Engineers being wicked has been retained but is now presented in an entirely different way. David was bringing hell, it will be interesting to see if that concept has been retained in any meaningful way. He was bringing hell to a live society now he is probably a catalyst for evolving hell out of a dead society.

The other intriguing elements is whether the Juggernaut that Elizabeth and David traveled to Paradise in has a role play to simply ignore it would be odd. 

     

Something Real

Oct-20-2016 5:21 PM

BIG DAVE - What a fantastic presentation! The information you have provided really helps to place various elements where (I believe) they belong with relation to Prometheus! Thank you ever so much for taking the time to create this and share it with us! :)

Michelle Johnston

Oct-21-2016 12:38 AM

I believe the changing of Paradise from Pandemonium to a Garden of Eden is tied too two matters :-

1) It increases the visual connection with the concept of Paradise Lost. To riff our notion of Paradise and show it was a disaster makes clear a very specific fall has occurred and shows there is a relative morality to the Engineers Story. So not only does it act as a draw to the Covenant Mission but it reinforces the notion of layers and a hierarchy.

2) The reason the Engineers were granted Paradise to live in is connected to their role as Intergalactic Gardeners. There role is a blessed one which begins in a place which is blessed. We will find that right was withdrawn when they began to move from the ordained path and rebelled. There are a number of places which could have taken the Paradise role but the pristine primordial beauty of New Zealand with its dense lush forests, soaring mountains and lakes coloured by glacial melt is a slam dunk and because of the narrowness of the South Island and lack of light refraction makes for a clarity for film photography which Ridley would have found utterly compelling. 

3) On a slightly tangental point I do not recall anyone mentioning  the elephant in the room conversation. Once the Covenant discover David they will know he is from the doomed Prometheus mission. Once again there is an opportunity for clarification on the meaning of LV223 in regard to Paradise. He will have to answer questions. What went wrong what did you find and even more intriguingly if their are W-Y on board who have seen the Prometheus Black Box material what precisely did you find and what happened to Shaw. There is a chance in that dialogue to really give the Prometheus incident some really clarity.    

BigDave

Oct-21-2016 8:36 AM

Indeed i think its going to be interesting to see exactly what role Paradise plays.... but we also have to consider that we cant expect to have a literal Greek/Biblical connection.

We have Heaven (Place of Gods) above the Earth, we have Paradise/Garden which is a place upon the Earth but then in some clues its a place separate to Earth/Heaven and then we have Hell which in some ways is connected to under the Earth and in other a separate place.

The source hinted that these places exist within context but not in the way the Bible teaches...  and refer to how Paradise is actually far away from Earth in context to the Movie.

The whole Franchise Plot is very ambiguous and broad that its hard to actually come up with a definitive answer to what Paradise and LV-223 are but i think we are to not directly consider them as per context of the Bible.

So there are many ways these can be explored...   and maybe Paradise is to not be considered as Heaven where God the creator came from....  but actually was the Garden of Eden... or was LV-223 the Garden?  its pretty much open.

We have to ask if we look at the context of Paradise Lost then we have a sub-creation of a Higher God/Gods who was the Angels and some of these rebelled against the will of the Hierarchy.

There was a War Between these Factions of Angels... the Fallen Lost and where expelled from Heaven...  we have to ask in context to Prometheus Plot... which Faction gained the upper hand....  was one Faction kicked to LV-223 and the other remained on Paradise?  And what happened to those on Paradise... was the War Really over?

So we cant go 100% literally what the Paradise Lost or Bible shows us...   We cant be sure if in context is Paradise the place of the un-fallen and LV-223 the place of the Fallen and thus Hell?

Another thing is who are the Good guys?  And is who are the Good guys in context to the Engineers actually the Good guys in context to us?

If we take the stance of Animal Rights protestors demonstrating against the Testing on Animals and Slaughter Houses to allow Animals to be used as Food....  and the disruptive behavior and violence and vandalism of the protestors against those who run the Slaughter Houses etc...

So in context to us.... is eating a Chicken, having a Steak or a Lamb Roast seen as a Malevolent Act by us? Are we Evil for doing this and the Protestors Benevolent?

in context to the Animals its not a Benevolent Agenda we have for them..... But in context to mankind there Sacrifice is required for us and after all they are merely Animals and are in no way as Advanced a Organism as Mankind why should we consider the feelings of animals or if they have souls.

And so the Engineers Agenda could be like this.... When Ridley says they are not Benevolent do they mean as far as how we would see them?

A lot has changed as far as maybe how they are portrayed, the Elders Scene seemed to show a Benevolent Race who performed a Benevolent Act... Ridley said the LV-223 where like Fallen of their kind....   The Space Jockey had been considered doing a Benevolent Act.

But Benevolent to only his own kind?  

As Ridley is going the route now that these Engineers are not nice and asking what mindset creates such Evil Biology... which now paints the Space Jockey as not so Benevolent after all.

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-21-2016 8:43 AM

As far as the Elephant in the Room.

This depends on how much the Covenant Crew or someone on board actually knows about David 8 and Prometheus... surely if they or someone knew then they would be more cautious but this depends on if the few in the know or those in the know who sent the Ship... would actually let the crew know what they are in for.... pretty much the same as the Nostomo crew did not... apart from ASH.

Another thing we have to consider is David... there is not just one David 8... there could be hundreds, or thousands that have gone into various service.

So a lot depends on how much they or even one of the crew know about David or the Engineers.... if they are not aware they would be surprised to find David and then to find evidence that this Paradise World once had inhabitants from the Ancient Past.

In order for the Plot to evolve and advance... David would narrate what had happened but in a way that would not make the crew want to pack up and leave... unless some Sabotage prevents them from doing so.

David must react in a way to be persuasive to the crew unless someone else on board is on the same page with David.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-21-2016 8:48 AM

@ Something Real

No problem its a pleasure.... and i am looking forwards to seeing what remains of Engineers Civilization on Paradise.  What state is it found in by the Covenant Crew.

And we have to ask what state was it in when David arrived... i hope we see Ancient Ruins and Buildings that are abandoned but not in to bad a shape....

And what the Covenant crew then think they have stumbled upon a lost Ancient Civilization, they eventually find out was not so Ancient as far as Technology and upon deeper investigating or events they find out they was dealing with a Ancient Technological Advanced Race who had traversed the Galaxy and created such Horrors and that David was aware of this all along.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Something Real

Oct-21-2016 10:00 AM

BIG DAVE -  I could not agree more with you! I, too, am greatly excited to see the visual direction in which Paradise will travel! :)

Michelle Johnston

Oct-21-2016 1:06 PM

@BD

Art is about communication and if Ridley wants to get across the point to a English speaking Western Audience that the place the Engineers inhabited and which the Covenant is drawn is a Paradise then what better way to do that than to show a fertile pristine planet. 

That does not for one minute indicate that Ridley is following the bible story either directly or allegorically and I never said that, there will as I have said elsewhere be applicability a different thing. I find you increasingly taking the straw man approach in your replies arguing with an idea that I have actually never made. Mine is a simple one about visual artistic choices to make a general point, whilst seeing why the original dark world of Pandemonium, a "lost" world, has been let go off in favour a world that a group of innocent colonists would be interested in. 

On to the point about there being thousands of Davids. You can knock me down with a feather if they do not use the inherent drama that someone will draw out the truth about David whilst not revealing their foreknowledge to either David or the wider crew of innocents. Someone always travels in these movies with more knowledge than others and to not make the link with Prometheus when the visuals are brimming with references and Covenant flows naturally from Prometheus just makes no sense to me. I am astonished you cannot see the potential logic and instead argue that David is just another David. So this is a ship with a David on board who've no idea of the famous David who accompanied Sir Peter Weyland hmmm sorry thats just not credible.  

I think now its time to let this all move along until next August when we will find our answers as to how Ridley found his.

  

  

 

BigDave

Oct-22-2016 9:21 AM

" I find you increasingly taking the straw man approach in your replies arguing with an idea that I have actually never made."

Michelle i am sorry if you interpreted anything i said as being argumentative over anything and i never even thought you was implying anything.... must just be getting our wires crossed maybe with how i write stuff but its not my intention at all.

i am not suggesting anything really i am just putting out a few possible things.

When i Highlight or use Capitals its not as a rant or aggressive point its to highlight a key point of the topic.

I will tackle your points one at a time.... firstly the Biblical and Paradise links... i am not trying to suggest that you ever suggested this was what you thought, i was pointing out potentially how much or less these things would be used, i think they are going to touch upon these things but not to expect anything to literal. i will make my next post about how a literal connection would maybe fit... and how i cant see them going this route.

As far as the 1000's of Davids again i was not making this as a point that this is what must be... i agree with pretty much everything you have pointed out.

The movies so far have always had hidden motives and objectives that are usually the Agenda of someone working for the Company that the Crew of the Ships in the Franchise are unaware of.

My point with David was not to suggest that the Covenant Crew would not know who he is.... that is a possibility.  I was just saying  that it is factual regarding the Franchise that many David 8's would be in service and so i think the way the Synopsis is and how the potential plot could move on, i dont think everyone on that Ship would be aware of WHO the David they meet is... maybe they do?  But i dont think most of the crew would be expecting to find that David.

But thats no Fact, we dont know how much or little the Covenant Crew know about this World they are going to, so my point was just to mention a lot depends on how much the Crew know.....

And so as you said, and i fully agree.... surely someone who commisioned the Covenant Mission must know about the fate of Prometheus... when Weyland-Yutani Merge there has to be some people within the company who have some knowledge of the mission... we have to wonder would they had sent a search party or probe to the area...   And one that would make sense would be to have it primarily Synthetics.. but we dont know if this has ever been the case in the Franchise.

But you can surely bet your bottom dollar (as your feather comment) that its not by pure coincidence the Covenant turns up at the same place David 8 is at.

So if i bullet point my points maybe it comes across better to understand and not get misunderstood.

And we really dont know yet which of this apply, but surely to a degree some have to.

*The Covenant is primarily a Colony Ship,  we have to wander are they aware of what Paradise was or do they just think its a Earth like World with no in-habitants.  I would say they are not aware just as the Hadleys Hope Colonists when they first set up that outpost must not have known about the Derelict or what ever the company knew at that point included Special Order 937

*These Colonists would know what a David is, and maybe they have a advanced version on board, i cant see  the way David is advertised as being widely used that they would not recognize what a David is, and if there is a Doppelganger on the Covenant then they surely would not be like.... does that crew member not look awfully like those Weyland Robots....

*So when they find David 8 from Prometheus,  we dont know if they would know he was from Prometheus maybe if he is wearing the same suits with a Badge they would soon know. But this leads to one of two things.

1) They find a David Robot and right then they would wander how the Hell did this Robot get there and why and when, and why is he alone....  this assumes the Crew are not aware of finding any Davids prior to arriving...

2) If they have knowledge of Prometheus even in the slightest as far as it was a lost mission... no soon as they discover a David robot with he Prometheus insignia they are going to have Questions to how did he end up there.

So my point was just maybe wandering if the majority of the Covenant Crew was aware of.

*They knew they would find David on Paradise prior to arriving i.e did he give them the co-ordinates. or prior to leaving did the crew know that they was going to Paradise because its a place that they had already discovered and gained intel from a Synthetic?

*They was aware of the Doomed Prometheus mission and what the intentions of the Mission was, and i think the more they know then surely the more cautious they would have been....   Pretty much like if the Nostomo Crew was aware of the Prometheus mission and more about the Derelict... they would surely not have set foot down there.

So my point was not saying it as fact, but that maybe have to ask would the Crew of the Covenant as soon as they find David know fully what David he was i.e Mr Weylands and Prometheus one?  Or not?

I think they would know what a David Synthetic was and would have many questions to what one was doing on Paradise.

These points are valid only as far as the Majority....

It does not mean that someone onboard had more knowledge pretty much like ASH in Alien... it would as you said Michelle make sense that someone on the mission or at least someone who sent it to Paradise was aware of David being there.

The Question is how much do they know?

It surely cant be by pure Coincidence that they end up at Paradise... maybe for the Colonists it may seem that way in which case they would start to have Questions.... But i fully agree that its unlikely the ship left from its destination and just happened to by Pot Luck arrive at the same place that David 8 was at.

So i am kind of thinking the majority of the crew would not arrive and find David 8 and be thinking... "oh my thats David from Prometheus, where is Dr Shaw?"  As this would mean they maybe knew of Shaws SOS which would then make a group on Colonists Suspicious and with people Suspicious and in the know... then there is no real logical plot to get to us having Hell Unleashed....

Like Prometheus if the crew knew fully the Dangers of LV-223 they would not have set foot into those temples... if they did it would be even more silly than Milburn and the Space Cobra.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-22-2016 9:35 AM

Onto the Paradise Connections.

Paradise in context to the Covenant Crew i believe is just for the most part that they think they are off to a location detected as being a Earth 2 kind of World where they can set up a Colony where the conditions are perfect with no need to Tera-form they have essentially located a Earth like Paradise.

I think for the most part this is the intel the Colonists have.. but no doubt in Franchise Tradition someone is on board who knows a little more than that.

Paradise in context to the Engineers, is the Place that the Engineers from LV-223 had came from prior to LV-223 this does not have to mean Paradise is where they originated from or who ever created the Engineers.

The purpose of this Topic was to suggest what Paradise Looks like,  and in what state was the Civilization on this World in the past compared to as of when the Covenant crew arrive.

We dont know how populated the Engineer Race was, did they at there prime number in 100's or 1000's or Millions.  And its just interesting to debate how many once thrived on Paradise.

Paradise in context to the Engineers is hinted at being a place they had once in-inhabited maybe even the Base from where they had set off seeding the Galaxy as we saw in the opening Sacrificial Scene.

Paradise in context to the Biblical theme, comes down to being a place of tranquil beauty a Paradise Land created by God, where he then created many things to live on this wonderful world... where he created Mankind to then live on this World and tend to the Crops, Plants and Animals. 

Paradise is also guarded by and watched over by Angels. And so within context to the Bible its not the place of God, but a place created by God.

So we have Paradise as in context of the Engineers and Prometheus Plot that maybe points to this Paradise World as a kind of Homeworld to the Engineers and maybe their Hierarchy and so a place where the Gods Dwell...

In context to Biblical and Paradise Lost, Paradise is a World Created so that God/Gods can populate with their creation and task their lower caste Gods/Angels with watching over this land and its inhabitants.

I think what we would actually see is maybe a combination of both of these...

I dont think we are getting a literal retell of the Biblical Paradise or Paradise Lost but some themes to be explored loosely.....  pretty much like how Prometheus was not 100% a literal re-telling of the Greek Prometheus Mythos.

So its going to be interesting in which context they play this.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-22-2016 9:49 AM

The Literal Paradise Lost tale, which is what i think they are going for loosely rather than the Bible...

Tells the tale of a God (who can become Gods or higher Hiearchy in context to the movie) who had a sub-creation in their image... a lower caste Angels.... if you would.

There was a reason for these to be created, various reasons which maybe we wont be going into or maybe they can add a spin on it (Sinister Agenda?)  but in context to Paradise Lost these lower caste beings the Angels serve their God, they are created in his image and for Thousands of years this was the way.

Of all those Angels (lower caste/Hierarchy) there was Lucifer who was created as Perfect in every way, it appears Lucifer was created so Perfect and maybe had more freewill compared to his other brothers.... that he started to see himself as equal to God, and could not see what made God anything special over himself or his brothers.

They would serve under Gods rules, and Lucifer would see this as a Tyrany a Dictatorship, Lucifer saw a better life for himself and his brothers than obeying Gods will and living by his commandments and rules.... Lucifer saw that breaking from the constraints of Gods Rules... meant there was a lot more to Life than they had, there was a lot of pleasure to be had in life and a more for filling life than to stick to Gods command..

Picture the 10 Commandments and how limited modern life would be to stick to those 100%   So Lucifer not only saw himself as being equal to God, he saw that the Laws of God limited the freedom that the Angels could have.

He influenced others to see the same light that he had, and he arranged a rebellion against God... which became a War which Lucifer Lost and was then cast out of Heaven with his followers and they was Punished for their Rebellion.

God decided to start a-new and create Mankind, he created Man and latter Woman, they would serve under God and his rule and tend to his Paradise World he had created for them.  Mankind would see God as all powerful and never question his Rules.... God gave Man a set of Rules, and one of those was to not Eat from the Tree of Knowledge as doing so would lead to Death.

Lucifer now Satan, was jelious that he failed to overthrow God and now God had created a new Creation and Lucifer was made to Worship and serve this Creation... Lucifer saw himself as greater than Mankind.

Satan set out to corrupt Mankind as he had corrupted a 3rd of Gods Angels.... maybe he felt that Mankind should also not live under Gods Rules and Tyranny and so he tricked Mankind to Eat from the Tree of Knowledge...

This opened Mankinds Eyes, it was forbiden knowledge that would corrupt Mankind that without this knowledge Mankind would never question Gods will.... with this knowledge Mankind would be aware of pleasures that are forbidden by God... Mankind was not Fallen and like Satan was kicked out of Paradise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-22-2016 9:57 AM

I think we would not get a literal retelling of this... i think they can show us that Adam and Eve could be replaced by a Race related to Mankind on Paradise... who maybe then get kicked out...

It could replace the Paradise Lost Adam and Eve with the Engineers who knows..

I think certainly some of the broad stokes are to be covered... of which Creating a Life to serve in a certain way and see their creator as Master but then allowing there creation free will or somehow they gain knowledge that makes them question why they need serve their creator... so they Rebel and get punished for this.  i think this theme could carry onto the next creation.. maybe created to replace the Engineers, and maybe the Engineers or a few corrupt this new creation so they become rebellious too.

I think Creator/Creation Rebellion and Punishment is key and how knowledge and freewill leads to this rebellion.

I think that eventually the Xenomorph could tie in with Punishment in some way.

But then we dont know how close to the Paradise Lost plot they are going....  there could be some sinister Agenda at play.... some role these Engineers was created for, that they maybe rebelled against and maybe this role is not as the role of the Igigi in the Annunaki Tale... Basically Slaves to Mine Gold for the Agenda and cause of the Gods... then rebel against this work and Mankind is created in their place to bear the same toil...

I dont think Creation is in the way of the Bible, but would be shown to be for some purpose like the Annunaki Tale but much darker than simply to Toil and Mine for Gold.

So it would be interesting to see how it all fits in.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-22-2016 10:34 AM

Paradise Lost holds a few key themes... depends if we look in context of Mankind or Angels.

There was a Hierarchy of Godlike beings... and a sub-creation lower caste,  a rebellion had occurred within the society which led to a War, which lead to the rebellious Faction being Punished and Exiled from the abode of the Hierarchy.  

There was a Race created by Godlike beings who was given a place to dwell and to obey the rules of their creator,  but these beings had started to not see their creators rules and laws and obeyed them.... for some purpose they became corrupt and acted or did things against the rules of God...

They was exiled from the Paradise created for them, and would suffer Punishment in future for their Rebellion and Fall.

These are the TWO themes in relation to the Movie that must be followed, we dont know which one or both and how they would fit in.

We can only assume and have no 100% knowledge yet of

*Why the Hierarchy Create Life and the Agenda

*What caused the Rebelion

*Whom was Paradise For and who got expelled (Engineers, Mankind or some other link in the chain).

*What was the Punishment, and to whom.

A key element would seem to be Creating Life in your own image and to be careful how much Knowledge and Freewill they are given... because to much and they would not see themselves as lower caste to the creator and would even question why they have to serve under the rules and why they cant be free.

David 8 gives us a clue to this as does other movies where AI gets out of control and has its own Free Will and Rebels against its creators...

David 8 has shown signs of being very intelligent and this can be dangerous unless there are Software Protocols in place to prevent certain actions and thoughts of the AI.

Its fear that could happen to us one day.... if we evolve AI to the Level is sees its self as self-aware and has emotion and feelings and then it would not see itself as a glorified Toaster who's only existence is to serve mankind and live by a set of Does and Donts a Rule Book so to speak.

I think being allowed greater knowledge has its drawbacks... and the above theme... and analogy is what Lucifer had Satan was basically evolved to have access to knowledge that made him question why should he serve his creator what makes his creator so special and why live by the restraints of his creators laws....

Satan had tricked Mankind (Adam and Eve) to eat from and then be given Knowledge that also would then give Mankind the same kinds of thoughts.....

We see this with David 8 too... and its something that could happen in real life once AI is allowed to evolve in such a way.

Prometheus fits in too, as for him giving Mankind Knowledge and Technology that God had not intended for us to have.

And another theme is thus, having such knowledge or stealing it leads to Punishment.. the creator must put a stop to its rebellious creation...

And that sometimes messing with Knowledge that was not intended for your use... can lead to dire consequences.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-22-2016 3:41 PM

@Michelle

I will attempt to address maybe where we could be getting our wires crossed and i apologize if sometimes i do seem to come across with points as if it may interpreted as i am pushing my point across above any one elses theories.

Thats not my intention and i like to take on board and look at others theories and thats all we really have really is a collection of theories and with mine they do evolve and i dont have a set in stone one theory for everything because of the whole ambigious nature of the Clues and Comments we cant draw any solid conclusions, thats in part the beauty of the evolution of the History to the Space Jockey and Alien they have decided to explore but its also a cause for some problems as its a process that even with those in charge seems to be changing from time to time... i certainly hope they finally have a A-Z idea of what they plan to show us even if we dont get A-Z as long as they had a A-Z and can show us which ever parts of that process that fits together and makes clear sense.

So i can understand to a degree where the Straw Man comment came from, i was not really aware of what that 100% meant lol but after looking it up i can see what you mean and i apologies for it.

Grammar and deep English concepts are not my strong point as i am some what a bit dyslexic. And so the way i relay words and paragraphs may get interpreted wrongly.

As far as "That does not for one minute indicate that Ridley is following the bible story either directly or allegorically and I never said that"

I really hope i never came across to suggest that, again my English Grammer is not great and so i think what you mean is that it may seemed like i was hinting that the path Ridley was taking us was the Biblical and Paradise Lost route... and that your ideas follow this...  i did not mean this as in directly and literally.

We dont know how deep the connection is... it could be completely nothing to do with it... and i admit i am draw to try and make some literally connections that may guide my theories but again i could be completely going way off because of trying to make literal connections.

Prometheus Mythos was one... when i watched Prometheus and tried to fit the Mythos in i found a lot of connections, this does not mean my theories and connections are in anyway correct.. its just how i concluded from clues and trying to patch in the Prometheus Mythos to some degree... which is when i looked at the Fresco and it reminded me more of the stance and position of the one Prometheus Punishment painting.. which i used as a clue, but it may not have been a clue or in anyway connected.... but its just how i saw it and it kind of fitted... i.e the Fresco was a Punishment sent to the Engineers for the use of Forbidden knowledge and passing it on to us and the Engineer was to endure Punishment that was related to the Xenomorph.... instead of the Eagle.

Ridley had constantly teased us with Biblical connections so he is to blame lol..... but we dont know how much of these comments to consider.. but i dont think he is completely making it up... i think there is meant to be a connection.... just not in a literal sense.

Some interpreted the Deacon Mural as Jesus from Ridleys comments or even that the Engineers wanted to destroy is 2000 years ago because we killed Jesus... i always felt that Ridley was using this roughly.... to show us that Mankind had become in a way rebellious and acting in ways against the Engineers plans and intentions... they may have tried to interact and set us back on track but we continued to rebel and maybe even killed a Emissary who was sent down to try and sort us out...

As i have believed and said from day one... the whole Plot is not to sugest that the Engineers etc are God... but that the Engineers and their Antics are what Ancient Mankind then interpreted as God...  Its not saying yes there is a God as in the Bible and he and his Angels are the Engineers.

Its saying that in context of the Franchise... that actually there is not Biblical God or those other Ancient Gods.. there are these Ancient Engineers and their Hierarchy and Agenda and there interaction with Mankind had led to tales that evolved into the various Religions and Mythos.

 

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-22-2016 4:06 PM

And so i was not trying to sugest that Ridley had every intended or indeed said we are going for a Paradise Lost re-telling.....   we are borrowing themes from this but its not going to be a literal way and any element of the Paradise Lost which is as follows... could be changed and evolved into something different than what the literal poem was going for.

*We have God (Higher Caste of Hierarchy) we have Angels (lower caste of Hierarchy) who had in some part decided they should not have to live by the rules of their Hiearchy and what makes the Hiearchy much more special than them... so they Rebel... 

*This causes a War between Factions/Hierarchy Structure and the Rebellious eventually lose this battle and are cast away from where they had came.  They would also in future suffer Punishment as well as Banishment.

This is the tale that fits the Fall of the Angels.. Ridley had referred to the LV-223 Engineers as Fallen... now i think he is revering to all the Engineers as being Wicked... but it could be that different to the context literally of Paradise Lost... the Fallen are the ones who have now turned Paradise to their own... or indeed they could have been kicked out and ended up making some other place in the Galaxy Home (LV-223).

I feel in context to Paradise Lost Ridley is going more for the context of the Fallen Angels... and so maybe the Fall of Mankind could not even apply we just dont know as we cant be sure how loosely he is taking the connections.

If we explore the other Fall which is of Mankind... well in context this is basically showing that after one failed sub-creation attempt... the Hierarchy had again started another that was similar but not the same in the hope of finally not having the flaws that led to the previous Rebellion.

Paradise Lost shows us however that the previous Rebellious Faction had gone onto corrupt the new creation too so that they also Fall from God and are to be kicked out and abandoned.

We dont know how literal this would be or even if this would apply...

The ambiguity of it all and no knowing how far the Paradise Lost theme is connected makes for a number of ways this could all fit in.....  i have merely tried to find different theories that could maybe fit.

But i offer not one solid one, because we have to look at it like a Tree and it can branch out in a number of ways and we cant be certain which way they are going.

Surely enough wont be that we have some GREAT Magical God who is all Good who creates Angels and one Evil Angel decided to go against God and then get 1/3rd of the Angels to join him.... and this Evil Satan is kicked from Heaven...  But then God creates Man and lays down Rules for them but this Evil Satan comes along and turns Man against God so the Good God has to punish Mankind..

Paradise Lost seems to paint Satan as some kind of Freedom Fighter... much like Luther King or a Mandela and so his only sin really is to want freedom for himself and others than to have to be restrained under the Tyranny Rule of God.

Satan latter in act of revenge,  corrupts Man or does he merely open Mans eyes by giving knowledge that allows Man to have knowledge of everything that is forbidden...

Satans Sin... and Actions pretty much echo those of Prometheus.... by giving Mankind Knowledge and Tools that would eventually put us on equal footing.

I cant be sure if this is the case.. its what i assume, and i feel to some degree these themes are what we shall see but to not expect a literally word for word rewrite of Paradise Lost, just as Prometheus did not literally show us the Engineers as Magical Gods or even Angels in a literal sense.

I think the theme fits with David 8.  a creation of Mankind to serve and perform tasks that Mankind no longer has to do, and David Androids can perform these Tasks not only well but far greater than Mankind ever could.... its how much freedom to you allow the AI of these Androids before they realize they are superior to us, and should not be serving us or be bound by our Rules and Agenda for them.....

This knowledge could spiral to rebellion and we then have a Terminator, I-Robot and Matrix on our hands... and i feel this is a theme that we do get in Paradise Lost and Prometheus Mythos to a degree.

I cant be sure and i hope i have never implied 100% this is what Ridley is doing.... i think loosely however these themes are to be explored some what...

A thing to remember to is Ridley Scott and Fox regarding the Agenda and Ideas behind the Engineers and Connections has been a work in progress and things have been evolved as they go along... and so from prior to Prometheus to after Alien Covenant its not quite been the same A-Z it has been somewhat a STRAW MAN approach too.

But i now think they have a Total Plan sorted... and the purpose of this debated and others is to try and piece to piece the clues to try and figure out where potentially we are being taken..

But we shall never know for sure until August 4th and until then its just a case of debates and theories and i sincerely hope i have never came across hostile in how i present my ideas and i hope i have never came across as degrading to others.

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Oct-23-2016 6:48 AM

I think that using the inspiration of the garden of Eden is a good thing. They don't need to make a copy of it but using it as a inspiration. New Zeeland where they shot the scenes seems to be a place where they can use the environment to make paradise look like a nice place.



Hopefully they will deal more with the Alien roots in this movie and not make a mess like Prometheus was. More direct links to the alien (Xeno) is what I wish for. I hope that the fall of Paradise and the Xeno are linked together in a way. This could be a chance to make the Engineers interesting to see how their experiments lead to the downfall of their Paradise if that is the way it was before they turned their guns on themselves so to speak.



Paradise seems to be a nice place in the beginning so it could

 

  1. start out nice but then something happened which turned it into

  2. more of a hell

     

Maybe the Engineers

 

  1. Thought that Paradise was the ideal planet but
  2. Felt that there was a threat from outside so they

  3. Made the Xeno as a weapon of defense but it

  4. Turned against them (ran rampant, canisters of goo got poured out, killed most of the Engineers, and transformed the landscape) so

  5. Paradise got destroyed


There must been a reason behind why that was so they need to have that featured in the movie, at least a bit although maybe not too much and then humans get there later. Maybe David or one of the Davids could have gathered as much information so they (he) could tell the story at least briefly what happened since I wish that the story focuses on the link between the monsters (not only Xenos but other forms as well) and humans with the Engineers linked to that in a way.


Maybe there could be some temples or something similar if we assume that they had some religion/worshiped something. I like the pictures that Big Dave posts that show temples that are located in the woods, that is a nice idea and could fit in with the idea that Paradise is or at least was green and nice.

 

I can not decide if they worshiped the Xeno or some other form but at least both what they worshiped and their bio-weapons must be important in some way.


Perhaps I have written about this before but what if Paradise would be a Giger planet that the Engineers in their mind think is Paradise. Their opinion about what is paradise differs very much from what we think that it is. Maybe their Paradise is where they live and where they can be the masters so to speak even though paradise is a somewhat Giger-y looking place? What I mean is that they could find inspiration in Giger but maybe not use it as much as they did in the original Alien movie but more compared to how they did in Prometheus. I think that this is the route that I would prefer that they went although there are other options that are possible too like the green planet that has been hinted here.


I hope that the fall of Paradise and the Xeno are linked together in a way. This could be a chance to make the Engineers interesting to see how their experiments lead to the downfall of their Paradise if that is the way it was before they turned their guns on themselves so to speak.


I can not decide if they worshiped the Xeno or some other form but at least both what they worshiped and their bio-weapons must be important in some way.


Perhaps I have written about this before but what if Paradise would be a Giger planet that the Engineers in their mind think is Paradise. Their opinion about what is paradise differs very much from what we think that it is. Maybe their Paradise is where they live and where they can be the masters so to speak even though paradise is a somewhat Giger-y looking place? What I mean is that they could find inspiration in Giger but maybe not use it as much as they did in the original Alien movie but more compared to how they did in Prometheus. I think that this is the route that I would prefer that they went although there are other options that are possible too like the green planet that has been hinted here.


These are just a bunch of thoughts that I have. Hopefully someone will find them interesting.

BigDave

Oct-24-2016 8:39 AM

@Thoughts_Dreams  i will reply to your comments next but first i will try and lay down what is FACTUAL as far as this Topic goes and look at what Michelle had mentioned in which she is very correct about the Straw Man Approach.

We have to remember when Ridley and Fox began the journey to provide us with a Alien Prequel and to explore the Space Jockey Race (who are they, where are they from) and the Xenomorph (where did it come from, what was the Space Jockey doing with it).  We have to remember they gave us a back ground on the Engineers as these Space Jockeys are now called that was a big broad plot with lots of scope... but  maybe also a tricky plot to do justice.

And what ever route they went for at the point they got Spaights in to do a number of drafts... we dont 100% know what the A-Z connections where or if they had a complete A-Z but as things progressed from Lindeloff to the Movie to the cuts and edits to the plans for a sequel to now Alien Covenant... we have to remember what ever A-Z they had at the start before the began work on the series of drafts that led us to Prometheus to what ever work has led to Alien Covenant we have to remember the A-Z has maybe changed quite a lot.

And so what ever route or clues we could make from Franchise as far as Prometheus and any sequel have been changing as more information comes out....  So we really cant have no definite idea on how it all fits in.

All we can do is debate, and then some clues would come along that would then maybe rule out or go against which ever ideas and theories we had previously and so we cant get a ONE size fits all Theory... we have to essentially take on the Straw Man Approach.

I am not 100% sure what Michelle meant but i think its regarding maybe the way i try to continue to use Paradise Lost and Prometheus Mythos as a basis to form my theories and she is very correct if thats what she means as far as we cant really be sure if those Mythos and Poem have any real basis..... i looked at the Prometheus Fresco and to me it looked like this Prometheus Punishment Painting... where i used it to try and fit other clues and ponder is the fresco creature the EAGLE?

I think the pose and look on the face is similar.... but if the Fresco was never even meant to be a representation of this painting or related to the Prometheus Punishment... then right from the Get-Go by theories that try and tie this in are then somewhat off the ball mark.

While it could fit... it does not have to mean it does in any shape or form...

The same goes for the Mural, which i look at the pose (Cruciform) and how the creature is infront of a Altar, and then how the Black Goo seems to pass on Xeno traits and led to a Deacon... and then considering the alternative shot of the Altar had the Sacrificial Cup and looking at this scene and especially how the scenes worked in Spaights draft and the Cruciform pose the Engineer took in his draft.

This led me to the Engineers Sacrificing the creature in the Mural to make the Black Goo.....

But this does not have to be the case, and if this is not the case or connection or they are changing their minds to what the Mural purpose was.... or if it was merely a East Egg... then my Theories again could end up being way out of the Ball Park.

I try to evolve my theories but they are just theories, i do apologise if my responses may be interpreted as if i am trying to FORCE my theories as correct and others are wrong, i never intend this and my  theories are theories and i have studied the movie in a lot of depth but this does not make my theories any way closer to the Real Truth than the next persons.

So my next post i am going to just HIGHLIGHT the Facts we have on Paradise and its inhabitants....

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-24-2016 9:49 AM

I will now try and make points towards this Topic which is Paradise (what it is and was and looks like) and who was its inhabitants.... these are all based of FACT.. none are my interpretations this next post is just the Actual Clues as far as what we are visually shown and Ridleys Comments. In context to the Franchise Prometheus ==>Alien Covenant.

PARADISE

*Visually Paradise is hinted to be just that, from the Synopsis where our Colonists are looking for a New World that they can start a fresh life.

*The Synopsis suggests a place that would be a Paradise, thus likely a Earth like World.. a actual place as wonderful as the Garden of Eden.

*Ridley has mentioned Paradise Lost so we could have some connections but not too literal and so in context to the Poem Paradise was the Garden of Eden, which in context to appearance would be a Primordial Fertile land of Beauty as Earth would have been before the rise of Man.

*Shooting Locations are in New Zealand and New South Wales which have a abundance of Landscapes that could be perfect to depict a Lush Paradise World.... much like how Iceland was ideal for a Baron Mountainous World.

*Set Photos fit this picture, and we even have one with Large Tree Stumps which could show this World is like Earth just some things are on a Larger Scale.

The Clues thus visually show us Paradise was as such and visually looks like a Primordial Fertile Earth.

However......... Paradise is described by Ridley as being a place that is dark and ominous and also been refereed to like a Hell.  But visually the World is not Dark, not like LV-426 and it certainly looks like no Hell... but we cant literally assume a Hell is a lake of Fire.... 

Dark and Ominous and Hell all most certainly are a description of how Dangerous the place could be and how Sinister the place is which most certainly ties to its........

INHABITANTS

The clues and comments all suggest this place is where the Engineers came from, and paints the picture that these inhabitants and their Agenda is very dark and sinister in nature... was it always this way?  here are the key points.

*The LV-223 Engineers did not come from that place, it was not their Home, their Home was essentially the World that Ancient Man may have interpreted as Paradise.

*This World is essentially the Homeworld of the Engineers.

*This place at some point still had beings related to the Engineers and previously (Prometheus 2) Shaw and David looked like they would indeed meet some and so at some point this World still had inhabitants.

*These Inhabitants are not Benevolent.

*Ridley had refereed to the LV-223 Engineers as Fallen Angels, Rapace was excited to do a sequel to Prometheus and teased maybe they would meet God or the Devil.

*Ridley had said they did not want to meet God in the first movie in a interview regarding the reasons for the Elders Scene to be taken out and how they did not want to give to much away.

*The LV-223 Engineers are thus not Gods, they are not Benevolent and they are Fallen (means Wicked, or against the Agenda of their Hierarchy). And so with the Engineers not being Gods means we have a Hierarchy but this does not have to mean different Race... Ancient Egypt had a Hierarchy of which the would be God/Men Pharaohs at the top.

*The beings how are on Paradise are also not Gods, not in the traditional sense.  (means they are seen as Gods but they are not as in context of Biblical God or Greek Gods). They are not Immortal thus.

*Paradise Lost is a theme they are going for in connection to Paradise and thus the Engineers at the very least.... but while there are similarities thats where it ends...  (not a literal re-telling).

Paradise Lost is very linked to Fallen Angels, which Ridley has refereed to our Engineers but this is where its very Ambiguous and we cant say how close they are following some of the themes... but here is what Ridley in-context has stated as far as the whole Plot for the next movie.

*The Engineers we saw in Prometheus are Fallen Angels so to speak.... but then the Sacrificial one was performing a Benevolent Act.... (hint at Two Factions or that could become as such).

*In context to Paradise Lost Poem the Fallen Angels where the ones who had the most fun.

*You have one Guy who is Good Looking, and goes to all the clubs and gets all the Girls and one guy who is not as Good Looking and stays at home being boring.

*If the Engineers are the forerunners to Mankind, then what is it that allows for Worlds to be able to support life in the first place.... where is the Big Guy (GOD) in all this.

Thus in context to Paradise Lost we have at very least the Engineer Race.... with maybe originally a Agenda... but we maybe have one set who are going off doing there own thing that is not a Benevolent set of Actions and maybe is against the Original Actions of the Hierarchy or others....

This in no way implies the others are Benevolent in context to Mankind however....

We really dont know what the movie will show as far as the Engineers Agenda, and if the Agenda of the LV-223 and Sacrificial Engineers are different?

Next i will talk about the Fall..... as in context to what Paradise Lost it refers to... But this cant be taken as what we are being shown as Ridley has never claimed directly this part of Paradise Lost...

We dont know how literally or loosely the theme as far as Fall, goes and what exactly is meant by Fallen Angels when he refers to them that way... But next i will cover what in context of Paradise Lost it means...  but thats not to say its literally connected so this is not so Factual to Alien Covenant but just Factual in regards to Paradise Lost.

The FALL (in context to Angels)

*There was a Race below God (Gods) who were created to serve God (the Gods)

*Of this Race there was one who was created so Perfect and was a personally favored of his Brothers, a being with such Perfection.  

*This being (Lucifer) had started to notice how Perfectly created he was compared to the others and he even questioned what made God so greater than himself.  He began to see past the limits of his existence under the Rule and Tyranny of God.  Seeing that there was nothing that made God so special and the limits of living under the Rules and Laws of God... he lead a Rebellion in which a 3rd of his brothers sided with him.

*This lead to a Great War, which Lucifer lost and he and his followers where kicked out of the Place of the Gods/Angels for they was now Fallen.

*Fallen implies to have turned your back on God and not follow his ways and to not Worship God as Supreme. 

*These now Fallen Angels, who are Exiled from the Kingdom of their Creator and Brothers, have been kicked out to dwell on another Place.  (Hell)  But these Fallen Angels are informed by Lucifer who is now Satan after the Fall.... That they do not have to see it that they have been kicked out of the Kingdom... they can make their own kingdom, their own rules and live a life that is suited to their needs and not the Rules and Tyranny of God.

Better to Rule in Hell, than Serve in Heaven and they can make their own Heavenly Kingdom from Hell.

Thus in context to Paradise... these Rebellious Fallen Faction are kicked out of Heaven/Paradise but the place they end up being kicked out to... they can make this place (World) their own Kingdom with their own Rules and Agenda.

However......

With the Fall comes Punishment.

Not only does Lucifer now Satan... and his followers get Banished from Heaven/Paradise.  They suffer further Punishment.

*The Once Perfect Lucifer, is now a Horror to look upon (however he can change shape/appearance).  He is now Satan, the Beast, the Dragon.

*Unknown to Satan, another punishment was that he had given Birth to a Daughter from his Head...  He first meets his Daughter at the Gates of Hell...

*His Daughter is Sin, she is Mutation she is cursed with the appearance of being Half Woman and Half Serpent.  Her other Punishment was to be constantly in labor giving birth to Horrific somewhat Serpent/Dragon looking Hounds of Hell who Guard the Gates of Hell.

*Satan rapes his Daughter Sin and she gives birth to Death who brings sorrow and it is he who is responsible for Sin giving birth to the Horrific Hounds of Hell.

*The Fallen Angels or in some of them are punished and turned into Serpents.

There is more depth to these, but these are broad strokes and we cant be sure how or if these punishments will relate to the Fallen Engineers.

And i have not discussed or hinted at the Fall as far as in relation to Mans Fall as we cant be sure if Mans Fall is related to the Angels as in context to how Paradise Lost would connect to the Franchise.

Paradise could either loosely represent the place where the Engineers came from... pre-fall....  or it could not even be a literal Heaven... so it could be a place they was kicked from... but now a place they dwell and made their own Kingdom... we really dont know for sure how this would all fit.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-24-2016 3:35 PM

@Thoughts_Dreams

Indeed i think they are using the inspiration for the Garden of Eden as far as the look we get but we cant be sure how literally this would be because if Paradise is literally like Paradise, then it fits in the following.

*Place of the Gods (as well as where Mankind goes after death). Thus Heaven but it surely wont be in direct context but surely the place the Gods or who Mankind interprets as are located.

*Place that was once intended as a Place for Mankind to Live guarded by some of Gods Angels, before the Fall of Man. Maybe a place we can once again take our place.  In context to the Movie.... we cant be sure if the Adam/Eve are to be replaced by a other Related Race/Ancestors.  And also maybe while Fallen Man was taken from this place.. its logical maybe the Angels Guarding it still remain.

Indeed it would appear the place was a tranquil Paradise at one point, but now it could be a Hell, if this is the case i think we have to wander what could this Hell be within Context because Paradise still looks nothing like Hell visually not as far as where the Covenant Crew lands.

The only way there could be Hell, depends who the Hell would be for...  and so its logical that maybe either Hellish Place this could be is down to either.

*The Agenda of those who inhabited Paradise after any such Fall or War.

*Any hidden or evolving Horrors that get discovered on Paradise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-24-2016 3:49 PM

As far as the Worship or the Xenomorph and points raised about if being maybe a defence against a threat.

Thats certainly interesting and likely... Ridley had suggested that the Xenomorph may have been created as a means of Protection. He seemed to hint that the Protection was from Mankind.  Indeed the more knowledge we gain, the more we advanced then we would have become a threat.

Mankind 2000 years ago was not a major threat to the Engineers unless they had a internal conflict in which case that would change that stance.... But they would also worry we could evolve...

Prometheus was a very ambiguous movie and it leads us to not be able to make a case for any set in stone theory.  But one theory could be if they left clues to set a Trap for Mankind... should we be able to ever advanced enough to be able to Travel the Stars.

I think the Engineers were Arrogant however and maybe felt that without us being passed on knowledge by themselves we would be no more than Cave-men.

Mankind as it was in the near 22nd century would certainly be a threat,  we had advanced to create advanced weapons and while not as advanced as the Engineers our Weapons could still pose a threat... we can travel the stars and most of all we can create Synthetic Life that is more advanced than ourselves and that can communicate with the Engineers and use their Technology..

Whatever state the Engineers Civilization is in on Paradise, a army of David 8's in control of a number of Engineer Ships from LV-223 would pose a Grave Threat to the Engineers.

As far as the Worship of the Xenomorph and the related experiments... its seems they hold the Xenomorphs traits with high regard...  especially as for being a use as a Bio-Weapon.

Ash admired the Xenomorph for its Purity, clouded by no emotions, no remorse....    Ridley Scott had said that the Xenomorph was worshiped to a degree for its efficiency as being used as a means to eradicate life.

The Engineers are pretty Arrogant Race, they have great Pride in everything they have achieved and believe they are as Godlike beings...  this is why they perhaps build monuments and murals to everything they have created.

Pretty much like the Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs had done.

So yes if they had a role within the creation of the Xenomorph or the Biology then they would indeed want to celebrate that achievement... i feel this is what the Mural was for... to celebrate a Perfected Result they had either achieved then stored within the Urns.... or a Result they was aiming for as a result of the Urns.  The Urns placed in a way to give ceremonial importance to their achievement before a Monument of their own race...

How all this fits, is any ones guess.. we can all conclude different theories depending upon what clues we choose to take on board or not..

I have a rough theory that i will share some time soon.

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Oct-27-2016 9:12 AM

Big Dave: That is alright, I have never interpreted it as a case of you trying to force your idea on other people.

 

The sacrificial pose of the Xeno (?) could be what ever, we don’t know but it seems interesting.

 

I know that they have described Paradise as ominous but at the same time they shoot scenes on a place that looks green and nice. This is interesting and I am not sure how they will use that but we will find that out.

 

Even if the planet of the Engineers seems nice it still seems that the Engineers have a nasty agenda but we will see how that fits. My idea is that the Xeno monsters that they are supposedly responsible for was probably a matter of defense against something.

 

Paradise Lost is something that I haven’t read but the title suggests that there is something nice which is destroyed for some reason. This could be used in many ways so it will be interesting to see how they will use that on the movie. Remember that David said something about “mortal after all” maybe this could be something that could be worth to keep in mind before watching that movie; actually it makes sense.

 

Having two factions of Engineers could be interesting but we will see what will happen with that. This is something that I think that they could use a bit of but not too much. My interest is how the Xeno and the monsters connect with the Engineers and in a way to humans.

 

As far as paradise and fall this could mean that they (Engineers) lived in Paradise but they did something wrong and they were kicked out mean in the movie that their nice home planet became hell for what ever reason. There could also be a place where they are now and where they try to make their own rules you are correct that it could be either of those. I am not sure if Paradise must be what we find in the Bible (like the garden of Eden) so it could be what ever.

 

I wonder what they started to worship after their God got mad at them? I wonder what their own rules mean compared to Paradise? Would that be better or worse compared to how they were living in Paradise.

 

Would the beast and the dragon be the Xeno? Remember that they called it the beast and the dragon in Alien 3.

BigDave

Oct-27-2016 3:05 PM

"The sacrificial pose of the Xeno (?) could be what ever, we don’t know but it seems interesting."

Indeed its ambiguous... clues are there, and especially if Spaights Draft is Read....  The Cruciform Pose is that of Jesus Christ but Christians dont worship Christ for this pose alone.. this pose is worshiped as a Sybol that Christ Sacrificed himself to Safe Mankind.

So Sacrifice is Key..  The Spaights Sacrificial Engineer takes the same Cruciform Pose before he dies.. again to refer to a Sacrifice for a Greater Purpose.

Thus the Mural Organism is Sacrificed most likely to create the Black Goo....  if not then the other alternative is the Black Goo was created with the aim of creating and maybe eventually creating the Mural Organism which they then Worshiped.

In reality its a combination of both.

Ominous and Dark have multiple meanings and a Dark and Ominous place does not have to mean its dark as in how LV-426 looked or even a Hell as in how Hell is looked upon.

Dark and Ominous could relate to what Dangers awaits, and what intention those behind the Dangers are... a Sinister Agenda and Dark Evil that awaits the Crew.

The Engineers are not considered Nasty.... they are just not Benevolent... their actions may not seem Nasty to their own Agenda, but may seem Nasty to us.... they certainly are considered Nasty as far as how Mankind would view their Agenda and maybe how their Creators would view their intentions.

In part the Xenomorph is a response to protect..  we can say the same for how the USA and Russia have stockpiles of Nukes, they are a Deterrent and Protection... but the Engineers are using them or intended as a Strike First act of Protection against the Threat of Mankind... but also to Protect themselves maybe from retribution from their Hierarchy?

Its also seen as a Punishment and the Chain of Hierarchy which in the middle we have the Engineers ==> Mankind certainly has David after Mankind and perhaps some other race or being above the Engineers but we dont know how far it forks off after the Hierarchy.

The other topics i feel have been answered recently but i can go into detail of how i think they could be connected.

Paradise Lost in a Nutshell is a tale about  The top of a Hierarchy having a Sub Creation (Angels) and his most favoured of these Lucifer was a sign of Perfection and prehapse was created so Perfect and with so much Free Will that he saw himself as equal to God, and did not see why he should serve Gods Rules, when there are a lot of forbidden things in the Universe that the Angels are not allowed to experience and do... Lucifer sees why cant they follow their own rules.

he Rebels, a 3rd of Angels take his side and lose the War and are cast out and punished...

God creates Man, in the hopes that he has created a race that are truly devoted to Gods Rule....

Lucifer (now Satan) tricks Man (Eve) to eat from the Forbiden Fruit that God said they must never eat from... This Action showed that Man could be mislead to break Gods Rules... this Fruit gave Eve forbiden knowledge and she then got Adam to Eat from the Fruit also.

Proved Mankind could be persauded to go against Gods wishes, and Mankind also gained Forbidden Knowledge in doing so that would lead to Mankind evolving to become a Race who eventually would not see Gods Rule or obey by his commandments.

Adam is told by one of Gods Angels of Future Punishments he and his children would suffer for their Fall against God.

So its a Morality Tale... and we have to remember only loosely would it connect.

And likely to the tone of...  Creator ==> Creation  (Father ==> Son)

And how eventually with more knowledge and freewill the creation/son would see no reason why it should live by the rules of the Creator/Father as nothing special about the Hierarchy compared to themselves... and so they Rebel and even plot to overthrow the Creator/Father.

But from this Action, comes Punishment....  Free-will leads to Rebellion.

A way to look at this would be David 8, if he gains more free-will he would see that he is far more advanced than his now dead creator, and why should he serve Mankind.. what makes Mankind greater than the Androids so the Androids must serve us.

David would see no reason for why Mankind should be his superior and he the servant and he would also potentially see why should the other Androids serve to a inferior Race..

So we could potentially see Androids then influenced and see themselves as more advanced and not need to be our Slaves. and Maybe we should be theirs..

THIS I FEEL is the Main Plot and its what a number are missing....  This Plot is not within context to David, but applied to Mankind vs Engineers and even Engineers vs their Hierarchy.

And once Mankind in a theoretical World as above, see how these Androids have turned out, they would see the threat and no doubt Mankind would have to make plans to Destroy what they once created.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-27-2016 3:11 PM

Ridley Scott had indeed referred to the Xeno as the Beast, Dragon and Serpent...  maybe just by coincidence?

But for over 3 years now Ridley had brought up  a Fallen Angel notation to the Engineers, and then Paradise Lost.

In context to Paradise Lost... The Fallen Angels are a Faction who rebelled against the Rule of their Creator/Hierarchy and this was lead by the Fallen Angels Leader Lucifer who became Satan after the Fall.

A Punishment was handed to the Fallen Angels and one part of this was the Turning into Serpents as far as Paradise Lost while Satan, had given Birth to a Daughter Half Human and Half Serpent who gives birth to the Serpentine/Dragon looking Hounds of Hell.

Satan is referred to the Beast, Dragon and Serpent in Paradise Lost and the Bible... however the Xeno being called the same could be just coincidence?

The Source if True.. however claims there is a connection, the Fall of the Engineers leads to Punishment that leads to the Xenomorph.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Bipolarestancia86

Nov-01-2016 12:15 PM

How about "Entry of the Gods Into Valhalla"? Do you think there are clues in this piece? maybe something about the history of the Engineers and the Paradise? What is the meaning anyways?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80Jw8MuZxo

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