Ancient Gods of Paradise

Indeed its was interesting...

The Elders Scene was cut because they did not want to Meet God in the first movie..... this implies the Elders may have been Gods..... but i doubt it was that they was different to the Engineers.

Just more Ancient and Elder... like the older and wiser Tribal leaders of Native Indians and Mayans and indeed many Native Tribes who still live like they did hundreds of years ago.

By not wanting to meet God, is Ridley implying a change of focus and these Engineers are not God?

Or are the Elders the same but just act as living Gods like how in Ancient Egypt the Pharaohs were seen?

I think however Ridleys use of Fallen Angels and mentions of Paradise Lost and how he also said that Shaw and David would meet beings but they are not Gods..... means our Engineers are not God..

But it could imply that there are  beings or a being above the Engineers in the Hierarchy, even as of the announcement of Alien Covenant (Well Alien Paradise Lost)  Ridley had said about the Fallen Angels.... and then also that if the Engineers where the Forerunners for Mankind, then who created the environments and means to allow this... "where is the Big Guy"

Plus the comment about you have one Guy who is handsome goes to all the clubs gets all the girls and then you have another who is boring and stays at home.... not forgetting how he claimed the Fallen Angels had all the fun in Paradise Lost.

So yes to me this could mean we have another Race or at least a Being above the Engineers and it would have been interesting to discover this..

But i think the Engineer Background Story has suffered the same changes that Spaights Xeno one did....

Spaights they decided to tone down the Xeno and cover and expand the Engineer more.... Now seems like a U-Turn again.

I feel this is to get those fans who are antispated for Alien 5 more and want Xeno Answers on board to buy into Ridleys Prequel series.

The more he can give them what they want, they can make more interest and then maybe at a latter date once the Xeno has been seen and dealt with people would then want to know more about the Engineers etc.

Thats my hope and what i think is happening.

I also remember them saying they was disappointed at the final look of the Elder Engineers and they did not fit in with the whole Godlike beings they had intended

So i expect them to be replaced and enhanced.

That image that was posted 2 years ago isn't a Prometheus fanart,its actually called "Mysterious sculpture" by 3D artist Tomasz Strzalkowski.

Somebody saw the image,thought it was a prometheus fanart and uploaded it here on scified.

About the topic,I dunno whatever Sir Ridley is cooking for us,since the plot sypnosis for AC only mentions David as the only inhabitant of the Engineer homeworld I think we might see the Engineer Gods/Elders shown on murals or if AC will have an opening scene like Prometheus did where the Elders will be shown.

I've always envisioned the Engineer god as a large biomechanical giger looking machine thats covering half of their planet (some parts of it are hidden underground).

Indeed Dark Nebula that would be very interesting.... Ridley Scott did say quite some time ago that David was bringing Hell with him and what happens if the Black Goo is used on a God or Machine

This could point to being used on those above the Engineers (as he had said he did not want to meet God in the first movie)  or it could mean it would be used on David or another Synthetic...

However it could also imply that something above the Engineers in the Hierarchy is not quite Organic and so a HR Giger Machine would be very interesting.

I made a Topic a long time ago about who GOD could be within the Franchise, which ranged from simply Elder versions of the Engineers, to a separate Human Race/Being above the Engineers (who created them) to other options which included something not quite Humanoid and Xenomorph related...

But then the other option was a Machine... or similar...

Or a Mysterious unseen Force/Power.

And so having a Machine would be very interesting and very HR GIGER we have to remember Gigers ideas for the Eggs was that the Egg Silo actually produced them. 

@Nebula: So this wasn't even designed as concept art for Prometheus 2?

@Dave: I can see that they were probably not pleased with the look of the Elder Engineers at the beginning of the film. They were quite lackluster. I'm glad they cut that from the film, definitely the right decision. I do look forward to a much more interesting design. 

I think the Artist may or may not have taken inspiration on the Engineers for that piece but i guess only those who have read that Magazine and if the Artist has mentioned his inspiration would know... but its very fitting.. as far as even if its not connected... it certainly could do.

I was pleased with the Elders, i think it gave the whole Sacrificial Scene a more meaning Purpose... there was a longer scene shot that we have not seen, and never been released..  we have had a glimpse at it in part where the Elder Speaks.... 

Here is the extract....

However there was a longer Scene, as the Actor who played the Sacrificial Engineer Daniel Twiss did in a interview as Prometheus was being released... he did mention that he had to Learn a bit of Alien Dialog to speak to a Elder.

So the scene was longer and two way conversation...

I think it would have added to the whole back ground of the Engineers.... but Ridley and Fox have gone for a change of plan that seems to indicate the Engineers are a Creation and Servant to another Race or Being.

As opposed to a Ancient Alien Humanoid Race who may have a Elder Hierarchy like that of Native Indians and Ancient Amazon Tribes etc.

To something more along the lines of a Tier Systems of Creators and Sub-Creation....

This does not mean the Elders wont appear, we dont know what the higher caste looks like but Ridleys comments did seem like they felt they was not Godlike enough...

A interesting addition to the cast is Goran D. Kleut

He is a very tall and gaunt looking actor at 6ft 6" and so i would be surprised if he was to play a member of the Covenant Crew....

They was casting for costume Actors for the Xenomorph but i dont think he is fast or agile enough but then again neither was Bolaiji Badejo from Alien and he was taller at 6ft 10"  But this does not rule out using Goran as the close up Xenomorphs and using more agile actors in other scenes.

However if Ridley was not going to want to meet God in the first movie... and the Engineers thus are not God... maybe they could be showing us what ever Race they wish to replace the Elders... or maybe a newer and improved Elder?

Goran D Kleut could fit this role...  and he did appear as a Pau'an in Star Wars EP 3 Revenge of the Sith.

And so maybe just maybe a older Engineer or similar could be a ideal role for him?

@Dark Nebula:

"I've always envisioned the Engineer god as a large biomechanical giger looking machine thats covering half of their planet

f

v(some parts of it are hidden underground)." Holy crap, I love this concept! Why is this man (or woman) not working for the ALIEN: Covenant production team? I would love to see imagery like this in the film. Thanks!

Certainly would be interesting....  fits a lot in with HR Gigers various and surreal art work and HR Giger had made his Alien Mural where there was a Derelict looking object at the top that was like it was constructed from a Xenomorph and it appeared this was giving birth/creating some kind of Tadpole/Worm/Sperm that Evolved into Eggs.

He always felt when he designed the Egg Silo for Alien that the Walls of the Egg Chamber had like Pregnant Bellies that would develop the Eggs.

So it would at very least be interesting if we saw this as what created the Xenomorph or the Progenitor to the Xenomorph and Black Goo (my theory is the Black Goo is the result of a Sacrificed Xeno related Species).

Ridley did say what happened if the Black Goo infected GOD or a MACHINE

By GOD he must imply at the very least the Engineers left on Paradise... but likely the being/beings above the Engineers on Paradise as he had previously said they did not want to meet God in the first movie.... which is why in part the Elders scene was shot... this does not however mean a different species.. God could just be the highest ranked of the older Engineers much like a cross between a Native Indian/Mayan Elder and the Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt.

By MACHINE Ridley could be hinting towards maybe infecting David 8 or another Synthetic,  or indeed some Machine which could mean another Robot or similar or even a Machine in general which could then mean anything from something small to something massive.

The other thing he could be hinting at is what if his hints are that he is referring to a combination...  which would imply in terms of the Franchise that GOD... is actually a MACHINE be that some kind of Synthetic/Mechanical or Bio-Mechanical Life Form... or actually some Machine, Building, Factory or Ship that is the divine Creator...  This fits in with HR Gigers works and off course Dark Nebula comments ;)

However if i am to look at everything else that has been mentioned from Ridley Scott about the Franchise and taking on board his comments prior to Prometheus and after and comments regarding the stages of Prometheus 2 right until Alien Covenant and its Synopsis....

I have concluded that maybe the Ancient Gods of Paradise could be either a higher caste of Humanoid Beings or a less caste (Engineers or related) who have overthrown their higher caste (Creators).

I think Ridley is going a similar route to what we see in the Bible and Greek Mythos.....   Bible we have God a all powerful and Ancient Entity/Being often depicted as Humanoid because of the passage in Genesis "let US create man in OUR own image"    the US/OUR could be key here.

Below God is his other creations the Angels who are also depicted as Humanoids and who Mankind has a likeness... we see in the Bible and Paradise Lost Poem touches upon this... that God's most favoured Angel Lucifer who was Perfect in every way, began to see himself as being so Perfect that he could even rival God and began to see that God was nothing Special compared to them and so asked why should they (Angels) be slaves to Gods Rule and Gods command.  Lucifer began to rebel against God, who he no longer saw as being any different to him (think something like the Womans Rights Movements and those that wanted to see African peoples treated not as Slaves but equal). 

Lucifer managed to persuade a 3rd of all Angels to join him and they was kicked out of Heaven after a great War. Satan and his Fallen Angels where Punished.....   God creates Mankind and over time Mankind also became as rebellious to the rules of God as Satan had before them.

We have the Greek Mythos which started with Chaos from nothing and then from that came Primordial Deity Gaia (mother Earth creator of all life) she Gave birth to Uranus (Sky God) and then she had Parented the Titan Gods with Uranus

It is the Titans who in context to the connections Ridleys is going for as far as higher caste and so the Titans = Biblical God are on the same level perhaps?  Taking into account the let US create Man statement which could hint at more than ONE GOD  and the head of the Titans Cronus had his own Children which were the eventual Greek Gods the Olympians of which Zeus is the highest ranked.   Again i think here we can connect the Olympians and Angels as connected.

So what i am saying is all comments from Ridley Scott regarding Paradise Lost, and taking into account the Greek Mythology connections they are trying to show us a Hiearchy Caste System of Creator Gods/Sub-Created Gods.

Titans/Olympians and Biblical God/Angels

Therefore we have the Engineers and surely then some higher caste of Godlike beings who created the Engineers and who are also Humanoid in appearance.

If we look deeper into Biblical Creation then there are more than just one Caste of Angels.... if we look into Greek God Mythos then Gaia and Uranus gave rise to more deity's than the Titans.

And so in terms of the Prometheus Franchise.... which connects to Alien....   The Engineers may not be the only created Humanoids above Mankind but below the Engineers Creators...

We see a Scene of Disaster in Alien Covenant, where there are Humanoids who are Bald and have Females and where the Males and Females are in very good physical condition like a Adonis and Aphrodite the ruins and architecture behind them in these scenes show the same writing as the Engineers had in the LV-223 Temple.

And so these beings are related to the Engineers, they are either a genetically related Race above them or below them or maybe even the same Race.

And so above what i was getting at is in terms of the Franchise, it appears as far as Ancient Gods we are going to be shown a Hierarchy of Castes, Each lower caste being a Sub-creation of the caste above.

Titans => Olympians =>Mankind

God => Angels => Mankind

Anunnaki => Igigi => Mankind

There could be more levels to it than that in terms of the Franchise Plot.... but its to show some Creator Race/Being had Created some Race/Beings in their image or maybe multiple similar Races/Beings who in turn lead to the creation of another layer of related beings.

And so the Ancient Gods found on Paradise or the remains of them would be some part of this Hierarchy and so it may be the Creators of the Engineers, or Engineers themselves (if they had overthrown and destroyed their creators) or another race related/created by either the Engineers or their Creators.

And so i would assume our Ancient Gods found on Paradise would be very similar to the Engineers in appearance.

As there seems to be a mulitple level of Creator/Creation and Sub-Creation.  That are all based in the image of their Creators.

God ==>Angels ==>Mankind ==>David (Androids).

@Patient Leech: Sadly,it wasn't.I doubt that the artist used the Mayan/Azetc gods for inspiration.

@Molecular: Thank you very very much.

And yes BigDave,Giger did alot of biomechanical landscapes

that would fit my comment.And yes originally the nostromo finds an alien life cycle mural inside the Egg silo,but due to budgetary reasons the Egg silo was scrapped and the mural was planned to be placed inside the derelict but in the end it was never used because there was no place for it and Ridley commented that the mural would show the alien story too directly.This was the decision they ended up being grateful to.

I have also imagined something else about it that I didn't mention,that the machine also produces other than xeno eggs but also ships (Giger did said many years ago that he imagined the derelict being grown like flower rather than built) and bald humanoid beings that are servants (or slaves),growing them in millions of Giger like tubs that have tubes connected to their stomach,some of Giger's old paintings did include bald humanoids.

Some of Giger's paintings:

Yes i was aware of the reasons some of Gigers stuff was dropped,  but i dont think i ever came across where he had referred to the Ship being grown like a Flower.  I think i remember he had said the Ship could grow however.

And so yes some of Gigers ideas where very very Alien indeed,  since looking at Alien and connecting it with Prometheus and seeing the Engineers in their Pressure Suits (not Space Jockey ones) but then considering the SJ suit... i had always had the analogy that their suits where either like a Snake Skin as its on a Snake rather than as we wear the dead skin in a jacket or boots..

But the more common view i had when looking at the suits and how the Space Jockey looked compared to those in Prometheus was the Plant like Material analogy... if you had ever came across my Living Cactus vs Dead Cactus comments i had posted a number of times.

And so indeed acting as some kind of Organic Material thats more closer to Plants would work and there is a connection to the Ships and Engineers/Space Jockeys Suits and even the Xenomorph..... at very least when we look at the Derelict... there is a connection on a Molecular level.

Also yes the earlier HR Giger concepts with the Mural for Alien and the other alternative Face Huger concepts that he did around 1978 do look very familiar to how we got our Engineers and so maybe Fox indeed could use other concepts that HR Giger had in mind from when he was working on Alien, that never got used.