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Shaw's Role in Covenant

Shaw's Role in Covenant

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JakeBranson

Sep-22-2016 12:57 PM

I think David is going to use Shaw to create some type of ultimate xeno-birthing machine, which will give rise to the UltraMorph.

Ridley Scott stated that he was going to introduce a scene in Covenant that blows the original chestburster moment in Alien out of the water, so my guess is this is what we'll see, and what the crew from the Covenant will have to face when they arrive at the Engineer's planet.

24 Responses to Shaw's Role in Covenant

Lone

Sep-24-2016 3:21 PM

Welcome to the forum JakeHanson44!

See~ What happens to Shaw after Prometheus in Alien: Covenant - Fan Theory

 

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

Michelle Johnston

Sep-24-2016 10:08 PM

OP as you will see from the thread Lone has flagged up many are with you.

To get from the Deacon to the Xeno morph we have three key ingredients :-

1) The Mutagen which represents the Engineers tools and knowledge.

2) David.

3) Shaw.

By the time the Covenant arrives 10 years have elapsed and we have an "evolving creature". 

We need to see the introduction of the Bio Mechaniod Life cycle as opposed to the evolved sacrificial life cycle which involves Mankind and Engineers.

Something of a mechanical nature has to be introduced to move us from Trilobite to Face Hugger.

I think part of the why and who the Xeno involves something which wants to apply bio mechanical ethnic cleansing, meeting out degradation and punishment, is responsible.

Benjamin Rigby has described himself as a plot "device' and we have two David's, one self employed and the other employed so we may have an argument over David 8's Covenant with Weyland Corporation being "reconsidered" with Daniels initially offering up the "paperwork".

The Covenant mission puts couples on Paradise courtesy of the organisation which has seen the black box recordings of what went on in Vickers Life Boat. God help those couples. As for for "f...... robots" its shake and bake time. 

 

 

BigDave

Sep-25-2016 8:05 AM

We really cant be sure, a lot of Evolution has occupied since after Prometheus.

Prometheus left the Fans with Questions as far as the Space Jockey, Derelict and Xenomorph, some of these Shaw would want answers too.... and Shaw had few of her own.

** Fans Shared with Shaw 

++ Shaws own Questions

1) How and When the Xenomorph was created?

2) How is the Black Goo and LV-223 Experiments connected? **

3)Why was these Bio-Weapons created? **

4)Why was mankind created, and why then did they want us destroyed? ++

5)Why did they leave us clues to that System (LV-223)? ++

6) Who created the Engineers? ++

7) What is the whole Agenda of the Engineers and History?

8) Where was the Space Jockey going and when and why?

There are other Questions no doubt as the Engineers are a expanded universe and we dont know how many worlds they seeded or how many other Humanoids, or other creatures they had created.

But a lot of these are not important as far as the main Questions.... from Prometheus.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-25-2016 8:18 AM

And so Prometheus 2 was being planned.

David and Shaw indeed would reach Paradise or at least a planet related to the Engineers and they indeed would find some BEINGS related to the Engineers. 

Shaw would find out that the Engineers or these beings are

*Not Gods

*Not Benevolent

*The Answers she wants are far from what she would have wanted.

*The Engineers or their Creators are sinister.

*They hoped to find God/Gods but have found maybe Devil/Devils 

*Paradise is more a Hell than what Shaw would have thought the place the Gods come from would be.

The movie was set to answer vaguely but more clearer than Prometheus...

1) Why and when the Xenomorph or the Biology that leads to it was created.

2) Why Mankind was created, and what had happened to effect the Agenda these Engineers and their creators had with us.

3) Answers to what the purpose of LV-223 was and coincidence of the outbreak 2000 years ago.

This set up a movie where Shaw and David must come across some remains of the Engineers or those who created them, and find out a Agenda that is sinister and not what the relationship between Gods and their creations is depicted as in the Bible and other Religions/Cultures.

We would have to Question how can Shaw survive such a encounter, if these beings are Malevolent towards Humans and if we are insignificant then how many answers does Shaw get.

The prospect for survival for Shaw when she encountered One Angry Engineer was not good... it was by chance that the Engineer had a bigger Mission to complete and then how the Prometheus ship put a stop to that... and the Engineer coming face to face with Shaws Trilobite Offspring that ultimately lead to Shaws survival.

How can she survive being trapped on the Engineers Home world with more than one of them with a hostility towards Mankind....  what kind of deal would prevent her from death?

But we have David and he was bringing Hell with him, and so no doubt he would played a role in negotiations with the Engineers.

But David maybe has his own Agenda... and while he can be persuasive and persuades Shaw to trust him and help put him back together....

How do the Engineers persevere David... what Bargaining Chips does he have to prevent him getting his head ripped off again.  Can he make a deal with the Devil?   And can David be trusted by them...

Whos side does David take... or does Shaw and the Engineer play merely Pawns in Davids Agenda?

These are the interesting things that maybe the planned Prometheus 2 would have shown us.

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-25-2016 8:26 AM

What we have now is Alien Covenant... set 10 years after the event of Prometheus and when Shaw and David left LV-223 in a Hijacked Engineer Ship.

How long did it take David to get to Paradise?

How did the Covenant end up there in 10 years time?

We know David makes it to Paradise and he would have been alone for sometime..... Shaw is not there... the Synopsis seems to suggest maybe there is no Engineers too.

Just David... but he is not alone.... as something is there Evolving that the Engineers had made (maybe the Biology behind it).

The Covenant Crew at first at the very least... do not find any Engineers or Shaw... if at all.....

But Rappace is cast and did a weeks worth of shooting, its important to remember the total Shooting time was at least 14 weeks so Rappace (Shaw) was only part of 7% of the Shooting Process.

Does this mean she only has a 7% role in the movie? certainly we cant expect her to play a big role, i would be surprised if she gets as much screen time as Peter Weyland in Prometheus and by shooting times it would suggest it could be half of even that.

So what happens to Shaw?  and the Engineers for that matter, because they are not in the Synopsis too.

Yet a scene at least was shot that depicted potentially over 100 Engineers or related beings... is this Scene set after David arrived?  or maybe before?

Right now we dont know what Role Shaw plays....

But the Source leak from the potential Prometheus 2 Plot that has been changed... if the Source is to be believed...  could shed light on Shaws plight.

I will cover this latter.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Lone

Sep-25-2016 11:41 AM

After those scenes from A L I E N, I felt it was going to be near to impossible to present the Chestburster, or Facehugger for that matter, in a manner that had any real impact.

The sequels really only attempted more of the same, but with no element of surprise, it became something of a cliché.

The trick will be to present those familiar elements in a novel and interesting way. I think that Ridley will succeed in doing so. It will be our old favourites with an added twist! 

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

BigDave

Sep-25-2016 4:20 PM

The source seemed to hint that  Shaws role would be small, but play a big part on the Plot..... She would Technically not die.

David has his own Agenda, and wants to play God and he ultimately wants to be a Creator himself.  The Engineers Evil Biology is the Tool he has to do so.... and the knowledge he has gained from what befell the Engineers is the knowledge he needs... plus what he knew from Prometheus.

Ultimately in order to Re-create the Xenomorph all that David needs is the Tools and Knowledge and he has both.... they also said the Deacon in Prometheus has to evolve somewhat before it could lead to a Xenomorph.

But also Punishment holds key to the Xenomorph, Shaw would find out some of the Answers.... but in a sinister way.

And so who knows... i do think things dont hold out well for Shaw and she wanted Answers and maybe she gets them in the way that she ends up playing a Role/Pawn in the Creation of something New..... 

So yes i think Shaw being used as part of what ever leads to the evolving creature or what ever means are needed to create it (or re-create) are something that Shaw plays a role in.

Maybe she would reprise the role that the Original Sin (Satans Daughter) did within the Paradise Lost Poem..

As the Source claimed in context to the Xeno and that Poem...

That without Sin there would be no Xenomorph.... i assume they mean Sin as in Satans Daughter.... and not Sin as in the Rebellious ways of Man that led to Gods abandonment of us.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-25-2016 4:30 PM

Yes Lone...

We have to ask how do they top the Original Chest Buster... i cant see how this can be topped....

The C-Section was interesting but it lacked the Gruesome factor of the Chest Buster....    Fassbender said Aliens are bursting out of people all over the place...

Well AVP movies and Alien R showed us this.... and we have seen the Chest Buster in Alien, Aliens and Alien 3.

The only way to make it more worse would be if it affected a Character we cared about.... this happened to Ripely in Alien 3 and ultimately it did not have the same affect.... maybe if Ripley had died half way through it may have?

For me a way to top the Original was if they had it as Newt Getting Chest Busted..... seeing a Child brutally killed would have been a tense scene that may have topped the Original?

Spaights Chest Buster Holloway during a love scene with Watts (Shaw) was gruesome i think that really could have worked.

 

We have to remember the Franchise has used, previously unused concepts and ideas from previous movies...

And so a Chest Buster during a Love Scene could work...

Especially if David has given a few of the couples his special cocktail....

I could imagine two such scenes at the same time in different rooms so two Chest Buster events during Love scenes.. well one where its a Love Scene... the other a romantic moment and we go back and forth between both couples...

i think that could work....

But then we dont know if Ridley means Top the Chest Buster in another way... we know we get Chest Busters, they could be the red herring to some other Xenomorph linked Scene that could Top the Chest Buster.

Remember he said Top the Chest Buster... This does not have to be a Chest Buster at all then.... but is it something thats in store for Shaw?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-25-2016 5:01 PM

I think maybe Jake (and welcome aboard)...

We can look at some of Ridleys comments... he did say a few years ago that David and Shaw are off to the World of the Engineers and David was "bringing Hell with him" what if the Black Goo infects.... God? or a Machine?

Recently he said we would find out why the Xenomorph was Bio-Mechanical and i think he means regarding the more Mechanical Look the 1979 Alien had compared to those Monsters we saw in Prometheus.

The Source did say something about a Humanoid connected to a Giger-esque Machine or Part of a Giger-esque Chancel of a Chapel  and that they was connected to it similar to how the Deacon appeared to be connected in the Mural.

They said it was like the Robot-Woman Scene in Superman 3 where a Woman gets connected to the supercomputer and she is changed to a robot..... and that basically its like a Giger Version of that.....

This could be a vague hint that something is connected to some Giger Inspired Architecture/Machinery and what if this plays a key role?  Well they also said Shaw plays a small part but is technically not dead.

The source claimed that without Sin as in context to Paradise Lost there would be no Xenomorph...  If they mean as in Satans Daughter...

She was born from Satans head as Punishment for his Sin, and Rebellion against God.

Sin is depicted as being part Female Human and Part Serpent and she is in constant labor and pain, giving birth to serpentine looking Hounds of Hell who Guard the Gates of Hell.  She is constantly having her entrails torn apart because of being pregnant constantly with these Fiends...

Prometheus suffers similar torment....

in the Greek Mythos we have Echidna who is described the same as Satans Daughter Sin.... Part Female and Part Serpent... Echidna is the mother of Monsters and some of these are the Hell Hounds, well Hounds that Guard the Gates of Hades.... she is also the one who created the Eagle that was Prometheus Punishment.

There is a connection between Satans Daughter Sin and Echidna,  another similar creature to them is Lilith

HR Giger had a number of his works based on Lilith (his Girlfriend was also called Li Tobler)and the works he did of her where sometimes called Lilith and many of these depicted a Female being attached and even having sex with Giger pieces of Architecture/Machinery 

A lot of Gigers work has Machine/Architecture fused as one and often infused with Humanoids or parts of Humanoids in a very reproductive and sexual way... as if part of some strange Sexual Birthing Cycle

And so who knows if they would use some of Gigers bizarre ideas and concepts...  Prometheus used some...

And if we are going to cover the creation of the Xenomorph in which HR Gigers Works did play a part as far as the look of what we was given... the not only Xenomorph and its other parts of its life cycle but the Giger inspired Architecture/Machinery that gave us the Derelict and the design of the interior and Egg Chamber.

And so maybe in a nod to HR Giger maybe some of his bizarre Sexual Reproductive Works could play a role? Who knows?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-25-2016 5:09 PM

I will add that HR Gigers idea for the Eggs, was that the Egg Silo (Chambers) walls had like Pregnant Bellies that would give birth to countless Eggs.

His Mural that was unused for Alien, also had a Derelict shaped part at the top that was like the Xenomorph, and from the center it had a Eye and from this was like a Worm/Tadpole or Sperm looking thing that seemed to evolve into the Egg, which is then shown as being used by Humanoids in Space Suits as part of a Sacrificial Ritual to Procreate the Organism.

These seem to indicate that Giger maybe thought that the Ship itself would give birth to those Eggs.....

But what does the Ship/Machine need in order to be able to do such a thing..... and so is this the fate of Shaw?

And so while Alien showed us a Cargo of Eggs, and the extended cut showed that the Xenomorph Life Cycle ended in a Egg Morph where it would use the Genetic Material/Body of a Host to Evolve them into a Egg to re-start the Life Cycle (which is how the Original idea from Star Beast which Alien is based off had it).

And we have Aliens hint at a Queen that lays Eggs, and finally Prometheus we have this Black Goo that plays a role....

Would not going back to HR Gigers idea be something disturbing?   That they had Machines or that the Machines where the Top of the Hierarchy and they required the Engineers as part of their Procreation... or Machines needed something else to be able to create the Eggs.

So what if some Giger inspired Machine requires a Female Sacrifice to be connected to it to then produce something related to the Xenomorph or maybe even the Black Goo?

If the Agenda of our creation is to birth hosts to be connected to Machines to drain us of Genetic Material or be connected to Giger Inspired Biological Machines.... what a sureal Agenda this is... and something certainly Shaw would not expect.

"why was we created" she would ask.. and then David would show her and hook her up to a Machine  "this is why you was created"

What kind of a Plot Twist would this be... fit in with HR Gigers very sexual reproductive surreal artwork... and his ideas and depictions of the Ship/Egg Chamber creates the Eggs.

who knows...

The Source did claim that Prometheus 2 did have a lot in common with the movie the Matrix...... we see Machines have overthrown Mankind and now use Mankind stored and connected in Pods and they drain substances off us to use as Power.

What if this is part of the connection the Source means?

A HR Gigers take on The Matrix meets Paradise Lost with a bit of Greek Mythos thrown in?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-25-2016 5:27 PM

We could go further down the rabbit hole...

If we go the Anunnaki route.... where the Anunnaki had a lower caste of Gods called the Igigi who was tasked with chores so that the Anunnaki Gods did not have to do them.. pretty much like why Weyland created David Androids.

The Igigi got fed up of the Toil and they Rebelled... and so the Anunnaki created Mankind to take the Igigi place.....  we have to remember Two Levels of Gods is common, the Abrahamic Religions we have God and Angels...  some of the Angels Rebelled and so Mankind was created.

The Greek Mythos is multi layered too and also featured Rebellion against the Hierarchy which the Source claims is the re-occurring theme in the plans for the Franchise.  The Greek Mythos we had Titans and lower caste Olympians.

So what if the Engineers once had Females... (the one scene in Alien Covenant seems to show this) and the Engineers where used for a Agenda by their Hierarchy....

They either rebelled in their role.... and Mankind was created to replace them... or they created Mankind to replace them as part of the  Dark Sinister Birthing Machine Agenda?

I am not sure... but as crazy as it sounds it does tick a lot of what the Source was trying to give clues... but they was very ambiguous.

Then i cant confirm if anything the Source ever said was even true.... despite a lot of things adding up to comments that came out afterwards.... by Ridley. 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Sep-26-2016 10:15 AM

@Jake

In relation to your original point about the Ultra morph I do not think we will see it in A C for several reasons:-

1) What will make Covenant hard R and challenge our responses will be the intimate connection between mankind and the Xeno strain and its appalling consequences. So rather than a CGI 16 foot creature I think we will see practical effects linked to both the creatures mechanical and biological antecedents with subtle use of CGI something human but not human which is always more scary.

2) That sense of intimacy will I believe answer Lone's point that is what will give the beast its fresh impetus. To see the evolution the effect on robotics and human kind which we have come to know will make it more real and immediate.

Shaw undoubtedly will be caught up in this evolutionary process. A C flows quite naturally from P (Rigby) and Shaw in hyper sleep with David fused to the Juggernaut technology piloting the ship toward Paradise as "a big idea" aware that Elizabeth has had her reproductive capacity re organised by the mutagen, has very fertile ground on which to build his notions of god. He will also remember in his dealings with the in coming female kind on Covenant that Elizabeth reaction to having a somewhat unusual foetus did not produce a sympathetic response. 

By the time the Covenant arrives he has his feet under the table Paradise is "lost" and whilst Daniels may believe he is singing from the W-T songbook, or can be made to if they arrived with out his "calling in", what Daniels will realise is mutagens do not work in straight lines and this mutagen has its ancestry in all powerful forces, rebellion and punishment and is now a tool for a creature who has no moral compass but has certainly developed an instinct for survival which makes David just a little more like humankind.   

   

 

BigDave

Sep-26-2016 4:02 PM

Regarding the Ultra-morph which was a variant of the Xenomorph birthed from a Engineer the reason it was shown as being so large is simply because it was born from a supposed 12-15ft Engineer.

The actual design of the Ultramorph is something we could see we just dont know yet how close to the Xenomorph we would see in Alien Covenant... if they (FOX) have panicked and now thing the Traditional Xeno and Ripley are whats needed to save the project.... then we have to wander with Two more movies to Alien after Alien Covenant surely they would not show the exact Xenomorph we had in Alien in Covenant?

But we simply cant be sure at the moment, they could give us a variation of the Xenomorph that looks similar to the Ultramorph but birthed from a Human and so size wise we are looking similar to the 1979 Xenomorph.

We cant rule out any Flashbacks and possibility of any Ultramorphs then.... where they could use average sized Human Actors as Engineers and a Suited Tall Human as a Ultramorph.

We can not be sure if we would be shown anything relating to past Xeno Related Organisms however...  the LV-223 outpost seemed to show a Knowledge of related Organisms over 2000 years ago... unless they intend to show us the Mural and Fresco's are a Prophecy of things to come?

I am hoping that if we are shown a Xenomorph it would be different to the one in Alien and Aliens etc and so would leave us room to picture something has yet to evolve more to get to Alien?

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-26-2016 4:10 PM

As far as Shaws role in Alien Covenant...

We dont really know 100% yet, but it would appear to be a small one, she is missing from the Synopsis and so she is not there when the Covenant Crew arrive...  but we dont know if she would be revealed latter and the crew meet her.  And if so is she in one piece and 100% Human.

Looking at her short shooting time, i would say she would not take up more than 15 Minutes of the movie, and i doubt it takes a week to shoot less than 5 Minutes.

And so we dont know if we see Shaw as in Flash Back to some event and period post Prometheus so January 2094 and prior to the Covenant arriving.

We cant even rule out that she appears at the end and she could then play a bigger role in the sequel to Alien Covenant.

Considering Davids Agenda, and how the Engineers are described as NOT Benevolent it does not bold well for Shaw but while the idea originally was that David and Shaw would find some related beings on Paradise.... we do not know how much has changed since.

So we can only speculate at the moment to what would become of her, and a lot of things may point to her maybe being part of Davids Agenda.... but we dont have any real comments or proof at the moment.

And the Source can not be taken as 100% Legitimate and as far as comments made by Ridley and Rappace regarding the earlier stages of Prometheus 2 planning... we dont know how much of what ideas and plans they had then are still going to play a part now.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Sep-27-2016 1:19 AM

@Jake

BD makes the point we may see an Ultramorph but it could be scaled at the same size as the Xeno Morph. To me whether its Necronom iv ( a fabulous design) or a a smaller Ultra morph or a Xeno morph it is about design to suit the story telling. As the deacon is the forerunner of the xenomorph (Ridley sky movies interview autumn 2015) and we are going to find out why and whom and we have a ten year gestation period for David to do his biomechanoid post graduate thesis I think we will see the evolution between the deacon Prom and Xeno Alien and a 16 foot Xenomorph hosted by an Engineer and possibly shown in flash back seems to me an over complication of the story they wish to tell about the origins of the Xenomorph (Here is a really big guy from thousands of years ago but the threat your up against is actually the size of a tall basket ball player doesn't make for good drama). Interestingly Benjamin Rigby having read the script indicated it flowed nicely between Prometheus and leading into Alien so I take that to mean good linkage which John Logan is very adept at. The news that Alan Dean Foster has agreed to pen a novelisation of Covenant only strengthens my view this is a good story worth telling where the big picture will be made clearer in a relatable and communicable way. 

The layering planned by Ridley and final part of the trilogy planned by Fox will I am sure give more context and explain something of the hierarchy may reintroduce a being which is much greater in size. However the desire for practical effects with judicious use of CGI may lead to him eschewing very tall creatures as he did correctly in my view in Prometheus. Two 6 foot 5 inch actors who make Michael and Katherine look small are included in the AC cast. Thats the kind of variation in size I expect to continue given Ridleys artistic preferences.    

BigDave

Sep-27-2016 8:33 AM

@Michelle

Indeed they may very well think that some history that predates the Prometheus mission may distract from the main point they wish to show us.   It could have appeared the plan was more of a History and Flash Back route.... but they are free to U-TURN any events.

And they could be running with a more direct event connection to Alien from now on.... Lindeloff hinted the Hammerpedes and Deacon were Ancestors to the Xenomorph but then do we take his word for things as he has a habit of being in coherent...  However we did not know if the Hammerpedes in Prometheus was the first time these things had existed and the same goes with the Deacon.

Maybe they indeed are going for it that the events that occurred during the Prometheus Mission set of a chain of events after the year 2093 that eventually lead to Alien?

There is a lot of things in Alien and Prometheus that seemed to vastly pre-date Prometheus year of 2094

*Derelict/Space Jockey  looked like it had been there for more than 20 years or so.... Ridley had confirmed it was thousands of years old and in FACT had been there within a few hundred years of the Outbreak on LV-223 some 2000 years ago.

But this does not mean those Eggs was there that long!

*The Mural and Fresco's that were in the Outpost on LV-223 had been there prior to 2093, could they even had been there prior to the Outbreak 2000 years ago.. its likely.  These showed us the Mural Deacon which concealed Two Different Face Hugers are these just Easter Eggs? 

Then we have the Fresco's of the Engineer and some Creature that has some elements of Xeno DNA and in the next Fresco the same creature is maybe holding the Eggs.

Are all these merely a Prophecy of things to come?

So there was a lot of evidence that linked to the Xenomorph Origins being something thousands of years ago...

However.... the Mural, and Fresco Organisms and even the Hammerpedes and Deacon that where created late 2093 are not Xenomorphs....  So maybe the Story they wish to tell they dont want to go the Evolutionary connections.... it would be like on a bigger scale... do we need to explore Mans Evolution from prior to Early Primates?

Or is only going from Primates to Mankind Important?

We dont know how they are going to tackle the XENOMORPH Origins...

And the Movies have never ONCE explained or shown definitively how long the Derelict was there? 

Despite looking old, and despite the Signal being Alien and not Human in Origin....  they could completely CHANGE the story and have it that indeed as of the year 2094 when Shaw and David set off to Paradise... that there was no Derelict on LV-426

As far as the Mural, Frescos they could be shown as a Prophecy or even if not.... these are all merely to the Xenomorph as Fish/Amphibians are to Mankind.... and maybe while a Evolutionary Connections it the getting from Primates to Humans thats the Point!

And so with the Xenomorph its a direct history and link of events that lead to those Eggs on the Derelict rather than a way past series of events?

Who knows... i for one see the Xenomorph as Ancient, and even if not... its Origins are...

And so a part of me is scared they have had a Change of Plans and now think its all about providing Xenos and Ripley to sell the Franchise....

However... comments from Michael Biehn and those scenes that appear to be some beings related to the Engineers in the Ancient Past that give me some hope that they will not contradict what Ridley has said or clues Prometheus clearly laid down that still some fans can never figure out.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-27-2016 8:50 AM

As far as the Engineers size.... i feel this was one of the disappointments....  The intended size was 12-15ft that with Lindeloffs draft was revised to 10-12ft tall Engineers.

But the same flaws had occurred that the Space Jockey had when the attempted illusion of a 26ft Space Jockey never came off as the Prop was 16ft long.

Its hard to really imagine the LV-223 Engineers as being anything more than 8-9ft tall.... but then we are made in their image and Mankind varies in height between 4-7ft tall and we can get taller and smaller but these are usually genetic bone/growth defects.

Who is to also say that there are many different castes of Engineers, and so some are 8-10ft tall others 12-15ft

As far as the cast we have not had the full casting yet and the movie has many cast members we may never even know about until the End Credits (those Humanoids in that Disaster Scene) and the athletic slim cast members who would play the Xenomorph related Monsters.

Uli Latukefu is tall but i am not so sure his physique would suit someone inside a Xenomorph Suit....  He could however play the role of a Engineer or related being... and while he is not as Physically imposing or tall they could maybe learn from mistakes and use the same kind of Technology that movies like the Lord of the Rings used.

I am betting he is some kind of Military/Security Personnel and maybe part of the Covenant Crew.

Goran D. Kleut  However is a interesting choice... he is very gaunt looking and quite slim and yet Tall at 6ft 6" 

We dont know if they have abandoned the Elders idea, but if they have not or they are revising them a little i am pretty sure that Mr Kleut would suit such a role to a Capital T, but then again he could also pull off the Guy in a Xenomorph suit but i am not sure he has the Agility they required for the role, however as with Alien they could use a less athletic actor for the less mobile scenes like they did with Bolaji Badejo

The source claimed that for the Prometheus 2 they was looking at Nathan Jones and Conan Stevens to play Engineers. However we cant consider if the Source was in anyway legit.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Sep-27-2016 11:12 AM

@BD

If the story is about the loss of Paradise due to the Engineers rebellion/sin which leads to retribution and punishment, it is entirely possible this occurred contemporaneously with the LV223 break out and Janek was wrong.

However that does not stop Peter Weyland's story setting off a chain of events which sees AI/Weyland Yutani/hapless victims and the survivors discovering Engineer technology and activating (reactivating it) which leads to the bio mechaniod cargo. We know where it comes from already, the mutagenised black goo, we do not know precisely who made and it why.

If I was writing a sequel to Prometheus and after hesitation had decided to take the historical backing into route with the origins of the Zenomorph at the centre of the second film would I :-

1) Throw the drama back 2000 years plus as exposition

or

2) Make it live real time using the propulsion begun with the excellent Fassbender and the enigma of the Black Goo and Green Jelly to explore a technology which has offered substantial evidence of a symbiotic destructive lifecycle which leads to outcomes which punish, from the monster in the fresco to the lifecycle which created the Deacon celebrated in the headroom and with this expedition the Hammerpede/Fifield/Deacon. 

For me its no brainer and if I had to contradict some of the things I said off the cuff at a press conference but did not directly undermine the existing two films I would do it. Janek thought they would not have Black Goo technology on Paradise, Dallas though the derelict looked thousands of years old and Kane thought he was dropping into a Cave when in fact all of those things can be clarified in a different way by an exciting revelatory narrative as Ash/Jockey/Ripley and the Cargo gain back story. With Prometheus we have seen a huge and fascinating expansion without offering a dot plot pre equal. I think some answers will be offered some delayed and some things will remain enigmatic. As I have said with ADF returning my sense of excitement in the story grows.

Put simply I feel able to sideline some of the material which is merely embryonic to the film making and focus on precisely what was in A and P and see how that can come to mean more through imaginative reverse engineering and good story telling. 

I am not concerned about the Spaights/Lindelof evolution they celebrated that with the Special Edition DVD. In the same way I can give my self permission to work some of it out for myself I can also love P R O M E T H E U S whilst recognising Ridley was getting going rather than bang on every element.

The very fact that he went Paglen/Green/Logan shows him applying himself carefully and then cracking on. 

I may turn out to be wrong about some of my specific suggestions as to where we are going and I do not aim to find out before the movie because as soon as the spoilers start particularly the TV shorts for the North American audience I will head for purdah. However I find it intellectually fascinating to take all we know since the script was signed off and see where the drama may be. I find the notion of considering what is the likely pull to Paradise, how will the David's react to each other and in the case of this thread where does Shaw fit in trying to discount and see what we are left with great fun. Does Shaw survive the movie its possible but then where does that place David and Daniels at the end of the film. For me the more likely outcome is she gets her answers which began, unbeknown to her, through David spiking her partners drink and that storyline will complete in Covenant. I can not see both Daniels and Shaw surviving and if it were in that way to wake her up at the end of the movie seems lame to me. "OK David so where to now where are the real gods clearly it is not these schmucks without hair".        

   

 

 

   

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Sep-28-2016 7:35 AM

Big Dave:

 

An Ultramorph could be interesting and hopefully more difficult to kill. The monsters in Aliens (1986) could easily be killed off by guns but I hope that the Ultramorph would be a whole other task in itself. Since it is sort of reminding us about the Xeno I also hope that they will have other monsters that the Engineers have made. Perhaps they could make it look less like the Xeno since it hasn't been used in the movies this far. If the Ultramorph is a variation of the Xeno but not exactly the same they could make it reminding of a Xeno but that it could also have qualities that are very different from it. Hopefully they won't make the Ultramorph as a simply bigger and better Xeno so they put more thoughts into that. Yes I hope that it will be much bigger but it also needs something more in order to be interesting but I am not sure what that would be.

 

I doubt that they will do better than the Kane scene made in 1979.

 

Some questions are interesting namely:

 

  1. Why was the Xeno made?

  2. What role has the black goo in it?

  3. What is the connection between LV-426 and LV-223?

 

 

Hopefully they will answer some of the things in a way that makes sense. We don't need answers to everything. Some mystery should be left about the Xeno and the SJ when they are done with the Prometheus movies (Alien prequels).

 

David could be interesting, I would like to see what he is planning on doing. It could be interesting if both the Engineers and Shaw are pawns in his agenda although I am not sure if I want yo see him as the main bad guy.

 

I get a bit worried that they will have a lot of Shaw since it is written that they did some weeks of scenes with her. To be honest I am not sure how to translate the amount of weeks into minutes in the movie but it depends on how many scenes and how long they are. Hopefully they will not have a lot of her since her character is just silly. Weyland didn't have a lot of screen time in Prometheus and honestly I didn't find him too interesting. There was a scene where he had a talk about humanity, Gods, fire, and what ever which would have explained better what he wanted to achieve. That intro-talk would have made him a more interesting character because then you have seen that he has been into this a long time. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQpGwnN3dfc

 

Well, I just don't care what happens to Shaw because she isn't very interesting. Maybe they will fix her character in a way but the problem is that they will probably base it on how she was at the end of Prometheus and with that in mind I doubt that she will be a lot better this time.

 

The could have some scenes with the Engineers if they get them right and make them into interesting beings. I think that they were sort of a failure in Prometheus.

 

 

New chestbursters: I am not sure if it is that good to add many of them. I would like to see a head burster, that would be interesting. As far as I know they haven't had head bursters this far and yes it would have to happen to a character that we care about.

 

The c-section, that was when Shaw did an operation on herself, right? That was nasty but not as effective as the original thing. I would really have liked to see the chest burster love scene but as well as with many other good ideas they rejected it, dumb asses. Sorry for the language but when I see how Prometheus turned out compared to how the had originally planned it I really question their judgment when it comes to making movies.

 

As far as having the movie as a dedication to Giger that would be a nice thing of Scott to do.

 

The ship's ability to create eggs: I just think that is too weird. I like writers that take creative chances but that was too strange for me although I probably wouldn't have complained if they would have kept that in the movie. Maybe they wouldn't need to go back to this idea but I would welcome more ideas that are inspired by Giger in AC.

 

Matrix is a movie that I enjoy so if they would add some of it into AC that would be an interesting thing.

 

 

BigDave

Sep-28-2016 9:42 AM

@Michelle

Indeed thats pretty much the way to do it and i think is kind of the action they are now taking.

@ Thoughts_Dreams

"New chestbursters: I am not sure if it is that good to add many of them. I would like to see a head burster"

Well more than one cast member has mentioned about multiple Aliens.....  i however doubt we would see as many as in Aliens....

Alien Covenant to me looks like this.... (from the cast)

Fassbender David 8 and a Doppelganger

Rappace Shaw (maybe a smaller role)

McBride Covevant Pilot (one of the longest survivors)

Waterston plays Daniels who is linked to Ripley who knows what role she plays, but she ends up being a survivor and lead character.

Bichir we dont know what role he plays but he gets killed lol (he could play the Corporate Sly Ball or a Android if you ask me).

Crudup again as with Birchir we dont know his role, there seems to be more Males than Females and with his Age and Previous so as with Birchir i think Crudrup would also play the role of a Corporate Type Figure, Android or maybe even not even part of the crew.... we dont know yet... but he as with Birchir seems unlikely to be a Couple with any of the ladies.. unless Daniels is one of the Couples too?

Smollett (M),England (M), Rigby (M), Dean (M),  Seimetz (F), Ejogo (F), Hernandez (F),Haubrich (F)

We have 4 Males and 4 Females all who could fit into similar age bracket and so i feel these 8 would make up some of the Couples that the Covenant is carrying.

Latukefu who knows but i would think he would be part of the ships Security maybe he also is a Couple and who knows the partner of Daniels?  are they also the Security?  The other option is if he plays a Engineer?

Kleut i think his role would have to be either something related to the Engineers or maybe even the close up Xenomorphs?  

so based off this i would assume the Covenant Human Crew is 11-13 strong... (we could get additional canon fodder like how Prometheus gave us Mechanics and Mercenaries?)

So with this i doubt we would see more than 3 Xenomorphs... 4 Tops...

As far as Head-Burster....

who knows..... in Prometheus we have to ask why did the Hammerpede go down Milburns mouth?   Lindeloff hinted that the Hammerpede had a reason for it and so it could be to lay something inside.

But for a actual Head-Burster then something would have to be growing in the head...  the only other way is something comes up through the Throat.... but we saw this with the Hammerpede... and if its comes up from within then why not Chest Burst out?

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Sep-28-2016 10:04 AM

Big Dave: Yeah, Aliens kind of over-did it. Five or six would be enough as long as they are well done.

 

I am looking forward to see what kind of characters they will have in Alien Covenant. It will be interesting if they have managed to get them right this time. Hopefully they will not be copies of the characters that we have seen this far even though it might be difficult to come up with something totally new after many alien movies (Alien, Alien 4, and so on). As long as they are well written then I am fine with that.

 

Daniels, it will be interesting to see what kind of character that she is. The lead character is extra important since he or she usually gets the most screen-time.

 

Hopefully they will have better security this time. I don't even remember who did the security in Prometheus. I just remember Shaw's stupid comment about no weapons.

 

Something related to the Engineers could be interesting. Maybe he is like a long distant relative? If they have some relatives to the Engineers, I hope that they will be well done. It could be interesting to see what that kind of life-form would be like.

 

Movie usually have filler characters but I also hope that the filler will be better this time in case they will mess up the main characters but I think that they will at least get David right. I am still a bit worried that they will mess up the characters this time.

 

Maybe some people are better suited for the Hammerpedes to attack them? I don't know what would be so special about them, it is just a general idea that I have.

 

Exactly so maybe there will be some monster that prefers to grow inside the head in some way. Maybe it will feed off brain fluids?

BigDave

Sep-28-2016 2:55 PM

I will attempt to tackle the 3 Questions...

1) Why was the Xeno made?

Alien and Aliens gave us the idea that the Xenomorph could be used as a Bio-Weapon and Ridley confirmed this was its purpose and so it was a Bio-Weapon that was to be used in some unknown conflict or target.

Prometheus gave us clues that LV-223 was a place the Engineers were most likely creating and experimenting with something that could be used as a Bio Weapon and the Xenomorph is related... how its connected is not clear but it was likely.

*Created from the Black Goo, either on purpose or as a accident.

*The Xenomorph or related Organism was re-weaponized to make the Black Goo.

But either way the Xenomorph ended up being used as some kind of Biological Warfare.....

2)What role has the black goo in it? 

I think the answers are in previous Question, but it would seem they are connected... when looking into all clues and comments that i have taken in from every source i can think of then i am led to something related to the Black Goo had eventually at some point led to the Xenomorph...  it evolved from something that involved the Black Goo.

Possible clues before could hint at after the Outbreak 2000 years ago... or prior....  But they could now be changing the Date/Event of when the Xenomorph was created with the Prequel Trilogy.

3)What is the connection between LV-426 and LV-223?

Again pretty much answered in the previous Question... Ridleys comments did say that the Derelict and Space Jockey did not travel far before the Pilot was infected with his Cargo and even adding something Evolved.

There are many possible answers... but it would seem that the connection is that either...

a) The Derelict had left LV-223 with a Cargo, was this Black Goo that evolved, or something from the Black Goo that evolved and got to the Pilot.....  or was something on LV-223 that evolved got on board the Derelict and got to the Pilot and then either laid Eggs or evolved the Cargo to Eggs.

b) Or a the Ship was carrying some Cargo to LV-223 from some other place (as not far in Engineer Terms could be a vast distance) and maybe the Cargo was used as a Weapon intended for LV-223 or to be used as experiments on LV-223. But it only managed to get to LV-426

I would be more guided to a)

But again the whole answers to those 3 questions could now be completely changed compared to what the clues had been shown and comments leading up to the release of Prometheus which included clues from previous movies too.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-28-2016 3:06 PM

The Security in Prometheus was brought in by Vickers and i would assume Security was greater on Prometheus than the Covenant.... the Covenant is just a Colony ship.... however the level of Security depends on how much the company is invested in this mission depending on how they ended up sending the ship to Paradise and what really do they know.

The Engineers we do not know how many different castes and types there are.... We have ONE Human kind on Earth, but we do have different racial features that differ us a bit.  But we dont know if the Engineers are all just one race...

They are supposed to have seeded life on many Worlds, and so Humanoids created by them could be much more than just Mankind.

They are our interpretations of Gods and various tales of Gods and Subcreation/Hierarchy does have different levels that are similar but different....  If we take the Angels.. there are not supposed to just be ONE RACE of angels there are actually 9 castes according to some variations of Christianity which include Seraphim, Cherubim, Angels and Archangels

And so indeed there could be a number of castes to their system... we could have Elders, we could have the 8-10ft Bio-Terminator LV-223 guys taller 12-16ft kind (Space Jockey) and even smaller almost normal Human sized ones (Emissaries

We really dont know for certain they can explore this in a number of ways.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-28-2016 3:16 PM

Interesting idea about Monsters living off brain fluids.... yes they could have a Parasite that attached to the Brain it controls the Host to perform tasks needed to its Agenda and Procreation and then it Morphs the Brain when thats done into some Organism that Brain Bursts from the Skull. This would give it a creepy aspect and not much different to how The Thing operated.

As far as Characters... who knows... Prometheus had a no name cast really only real Top Stars... who was A-List Fassbender (One of the Main Roles) you could then class Pearce as a once A-List ish and Theron who i feel are more B-List as supporting main Characters... then you had Elba who is a B-List but a up and coming Actor again in a more supporting role.....  then we had Rappace again a B-List star who was to play the other Main Character

But for a number of people she was not really as interesting Character.... Fox and Ridley knew this and have decided to bring in a new Character who could maybe fit more in the Ripley Mold... This is Daniels (who is connected to Ripley, but is this a red herring and connection is just in the kind of Character?)

The Change of the direction Prometheus sequel was looking at to Alien Covenant and a lesser role for Shaw could mean Shaw is not going to feature much in the franchise.

But with 1-2 more movies... i am sure Daniels and David will play large roles and be carried on in the next movie after Covenant (not Alien 5 lol).

so yes i think Fox and Ridley have looked at criticism with Characters for Prometheus and wont make the same mistakes.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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