I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on David and how he got to be on a planet by himself?
I think as soon as they landed Shaw got set up any him and died and that this new creature doesn't acknowledge him because he's a robot and that he is responsible for the xeno and that he is God. And the new crew of the Covenent get sucked into a trap by David. Also we have to see what's happened to the Xeno at the end of Prometheus. I want to see it giant like, two stories tall and spider like , not having eight legs but all gangly so you don't know what's where.
I think this is the $64M Question....
Its interesting to find out why Shaw is omitted from the Synopsis and then she was said to not be joinging the cast for shooting... but then she Rappace latter did join the cast for a week at the end of shooting....
At which point McBride already confirmed the cast had been getting smaller each week as they are bumped off.
This must imply Shaw is found towards the end of the movie, or she has scenes that are set prior to the Alien Covenant in which she never meets or interacts with the Crew.
We cant be sure what Davids Agenda would be..... originally Ridley Scott confirmed that David and Shaw would meet some beings on Paradise related to the Engineers and these beings are not Gods, they are also not Benevolent... this would not bold well for Shaw.... As we saw the Outcome of what ONE Engineer could do, so if they have bad intentions for Shaw well she is not going to survive is she?
But then David was bringing Hell with him!
I think now we have changed to a movie that is about a Human Colony Ship that arrives at the same location which cant just be by coincidence... and the movie will deal with this Crew and their hopes to find a Earth like Paradise to Colonize and they find a David 8 from Prometheus on his own.. which to me the Synopsis sets up that they find this a surprise.
We have to wonder how long has David been on Paradise, surely it would not taken him 10 years to get there... not when the Covenant is a W-Y Ship and the Merger had not taken place by the time of Prometheus.... this means David has been on Paradise for at least a few years before the Covenant arrives.
I think we would be dealing with the Aftermath of what happens between When David and Shaw arrive and just before the Covenant arrives.
Shaw is no where to be found by the time the Covenant arrives and there is something Evolving on Paradise that the Engineers had made (or made by their Evil Biology).
I think the Term... COVENANT is going to play a key role in the Plot on maybe more than one level... like Prometheus was with the first movie.
But are we going to find out about a Old Covenant... does this hold the answers to why the Engineers never returned and would we see events of seeing this broken?
is the Covenant between Engineer Factions and could the events of Davids arrival break this?
Is the Covenant between David and the Engineers?
It would be interesting to find out...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think we need to look at the AGENDAS...
First the Covenant Crew....
The Synopsis shows us the Covenant is a Ship that is carrying mainly couples who are off to a Earth like World that would be a Paradise and a World where there would be no need to Teraform it would be just as when the Europeans had landed on the Americas and these Lands provided a ideal place to start up a fresh new life, a new colony.
However we have to ask.... is it by chance that they ended up on the same World that David 8 was heading to?
The ship is a Weyland-Yutani mission and the back ground we have seems to show these are rival companies prior to 2093 and so why would they work together? Weyland is a Megalomaniac he wants all the power and Monopoly to himself.
As of 2094 however, he is dead his daughter who is CEO of Weyland Industries is also believed to be dead and so what state is Weyland Company in at home..
How much information did the company (or its software and hardware) have and how much was sent back to Earth, and would the company not want to investigate LV-223?
Yutani seem to be a global communications and software company pretty much like we could say Apple are in todays World... The quiet Eye Videos show that they had been spying on Weyland-Shaws conversations and we have to wander if they have Technology or Software on Prometheus that could spy and send back information to Yutani.
So there is a Good Chance that someone on the Covenant may know more than the other crew do, who for the most part believe they are off to be the First to Find this new World that can support life and start up a new Colony.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Next we will look at David and Shaws Agenda..
We are led to think that Shaw's Agenda was to find answers to Questions about where do we come from, where do we go. she is religious and yet she is a Scientist who has spent her life looking for connections between Ancient Cultures that link to God.... they found the Star Maps in many cultures and she wanted to go to the location of these Star Maps because she felt that maybe indeed there are some beings who Ancient Mankind may have interpreted as Gods... and its maybe these beings have left the Star Maps for us to find them.
She soon discovers that indeed they lead to a world, but this place does not answer her questions as what she finds is indeed maybe these beings did create us, and that these Gods are Mortal and the Star Maps lead to a place where these Engineers had been creating some evil Biological Warefare that they had intended to use on Earth before things got out of Control... she finds out that we are just a experiment and these Engineers are not God and had created something else to use on Mankind....
She felt she would be stuck on this Rock, until David had informed her there are many more ships and that he could fly one but he would need Shaws help.....
Shaw has found out that David has been up to no good, he had showed that he had a dislike for Mankind and his Maker and while loosely following his Masters Agenda he ultimately despised being a Slave to Mankind... She found out David had maybe been involved in a lot of the Shenanigans that led to her pregnancy? She knows he had been up to no good and maybe questions how much of a role and what did David know about what was going on....
She has her doubts.... but without Davids Help she would be stuck on LV-223 and so she has to help David and she sets off a Warning Message about LV-223 and the Death that this place is... and she is off searching for answers... She did not want to go home... there is nothing there for her..
She wants answers.... Her Agenda is to meet other Engineers on their homeworld or at least visit the place in the hope it can give her answers to these.
Why was we Created?
Why did they visit us and then abandon us?
What did we do wrong?
Why did they change their minds and want to destroy us?
What did David mean by sometimes to create one must first destroy?
And if the Engineers created us, then who created them?
And what was the purpose of LV-223 and why leave clues to the place for Mankind?
HOW SHAW WILL GET HER ANSWERS?
*This depends on 1st if David would take her there in one piece.
*What is left of Engineer Society on Paradise are there any beings left to interact and get answers from?
*If not would there be any clues that David can interpret and pass the information on to Shaw... and can he be trusted?
*If there are some beings related to the Engineers, then it would depend on how they would view Shaw and if they would be willing to provide her with Answers.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
David is a creation of Mankind, created because we could (Well Weyland) he may have seen himself mistreated and disrespected by Mankind who he sees as inferior to him.
He joined Weyland to be his servant and try and find out as much about any potential Godlike beings they could find, in the hope they can provide Weyland with the key to Immortality.
I think Davids journey intrigued him, he found out that his creators own creators are not Gods they are Mortal and never had much love for their own creation... he may have found out a lot of interesting things about the Agenda of these Engineer Gods, and it did not bold well for Mankind... while David poses the Question does everyone not want their Parents Dead.... he finds out these Engineers wanted their Children Dead.... or at least changed.
With Weyland dead, David is free and i think he would see this mission to Paradise as a interesting way to discover why his creators where created and by whom... and David now free from Weyland and seeing he is more advanced than Mankind and that Mankinds creators were also Mortal..
David would see they had created something Horrific and David has knowledge of their Technology as he can interpret their language system and these Would be Gods, had created something they could not control...
Something David could maybe better control.... Mankinds creators are Mortal and they may posses powerful Technology and Biological Experiments but ultimately they could not control it.
David would now see that its the Engineers Technology and Biological experiments that made them Truly Gods.... And David knows that if he could find out more and get his hands on more information.
Then HE could become the GOD now.
He needs Shaws help however, as without her he would be left in no state to be able to perform anything.... he would use Shaw to rebuild him to a degree he would be able to perform tasks that suit his Agenda.
Once he is back together, and persuades Shaw she is at the whims of David and a Pawn in his Agenda if he so wishes to use her that way.
Davids journey once he is set off, could be where ever he wishes to go... Shaw would be at his Mercy should he have any Agenda he wishes to accomplish....
He has a Engineer Ship and its Evil Biology Cargo and he has some insight into what this Cargo can do, and has first hand witnessed some of it.
Maybe he never got to see the Full End Product after Shaw removed the Trillobite.... does he know what would happen next?
If not well he has the Tools maybe to experiment a bit more, if not on Shaw, if not on any beings left on Paradise... then surely if he can get some unsuspecting Guinea Pigs then he can play Dr Frankenstein.
Humans are in-superior to Androids, why should Androids serve Mankind?
Mankinds creators are far superior but Mortal and its only the Knowledge and Technology they possess that make them Godlike.... now David has some of this knowledge and Technology and he knows with more he can gain he can become GOD
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
But all of these things depend on the Engineers or what ever other beings related are on Paradise and their Agenda.
Did these beings if there are any left on Paradise, did they have good intentions for Mankinds creation?
Did they know about the LV-223 Outpost and its Agenda to create something to use on Earth to destroy Mankind?
Did they know about our creation? if not what would be their reaction to finding out?
Did they leave us to be, abandon us and leave us to destroy ourselves with the believe that without the help and guidance of the Engineers (or Hierarchy) that we would posses no threat and never be able to traverse the Stars?
How wrong they was and would the discovery of our ability to do so change their minds... would we be seen as a threat?
How would they react to David 8, and the fact Mankind had tried to play God and Sub-create...? And then they notice that this Artificial Creation can not only use their Engineer Technology and Speak with them... would they see the knowledge David has, as being a great threat?
We dont know the Engineers or their Creators True Agenda, their knowledge or intentions for Earth and Mankind... and the discovery of these creations coming to their Homeworld what kind of threat would they see this as...
Would this change their outlook on us....
its whatever is left of the Engineers Civilization or their creators on Paradise and how they saw/now see Mankind and our Creation David that would determine the outcome of what Answers Shaw gets and what lies in store for the Covenant crew and Mankind.
Does anything remain of these beings?
And can David persuade them to allow him to live, what kind of deal could David make that allows him to survive for a number of years after the arrival..
Does David make a Covenant with them?
Does David bring Hell to them?
Or is their nothing of their Civilization left by the time David arrives? No Answers for Shaw... but Shaw could provide David with Answers he is looking for in his role to play GOD
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
And so those points above will determine exactly what David has been up to...
I would assume he has a Agenda, wants to play God and gains more Tools and Knowledge that these Godlike beings had possessed... I think he would play a large role in the Covenant coming to Paradise.
I think he may play a large role in what is left of the Engineers on Paradise and the Evolving Organism that is to be unleashed on the unsuspecting Covenant Crew.
And what about Shaw... her fate i think was in the hands of David and his Quest to become God.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
In order to navigate the ship he must be in one piece, right? This means that Shaw must have put his head back at some point.
I hope that Shaw will only have a small role so we don't need to see a lot of her. It would make sense of we see what she is doing before the ship gets there by doing that the go from point A-B so to speak instead of going directly from A to C.
Hopefully the encounter with the Engineers will not be good for Shaw. I think that this could be interesting, first she saw them as Gods, then they turned nasty, and then they will get her into trouble (possibly causing her death?), that would be interesting IMO. Hopefully we won't see her a lot.
Maybe David has found a tomb that the Engineers used and bury Shaw there. This could be a hint to the Engineer's religion, I think that could be interesting if it is being well done. “This is just another tomb” could be referenced back from AC so there is a link from AC back to Prometheus or maybe it is too far fetched?
Hopefully the new monster that evolves will be interesting and not just another Xeno copy even though I would like the movie to be closer tied to Alien (1979) in order for it to make sense.
As far as David goes, maybe he understands the Engineers so good so that he will be the God so to speak? This could be interesting.
Indeed we have to remember that Ridley at the time of Prometheus 2 talk had confirmed these points.
1) Davids head goes back on... Shaw has no choice and David is very persuasive!
2) David does manage to take the ship to Paradise, we have to ask how long does this take and can Shaw survive the flight being able to walk around the ship? Or does she have to go into the Cryo-Sleep Pod?
3) They (Shaws and David) did arrive at Paradise or some place related to the Engineers and they do find some beings!
4)These beings are not Gods and not Benevolent, Shaw wants those answers and we have to ask how would the Engineer react to her, would they listen and give her answers? Would they instantly want her dead (does not make for a good movie) or maybe they can manipulate her?
5) What Agenda does David have? He can communicate with the Engineers and we saw how the one Engineer took David and so would these beings feel the same way and want to destroy David (again not much for a movie).
And so yes for them to turn up and meet some beings related to the Engineers, and if these beings react the same as when the Last Engineer Tore of Davids head.. we all saw how long that encounter lasted... surely Shaw cant run and escape this time.
So this does not hold well for a movie..... the Engineers have bad intentions for Mankind, they are not Benevolent and they would care little for what Shaw wants..... however David can communicate with them.... he also has a Bio Weapon Cargo... does this play into his negotiation plans?
Is this Cargo Davids Trump Card....
Is there some kind of Covenant between David and Engineers and what bargaining Chip would Shaw provide and would she even be aware of what Plans David/Engineers have for her.
Rememeber Shaw cant speak Engineer and so she has to take at Face Value what David is Translating or Not.
i would not be surprised if David barters with the Engineers, maybe he and the Engineers enter a agreement that involves Shaw and Shaw is betrayed by David but she is unaware of his plans...
Is there something David wants, in return for helping the Engineers?
We however have seen Alien Covenant coming from a different angle..... there is for the most part NO SHAW the movie is set 10 years after Prometheus and David is all along the Sole Occupant.
There is no mention of Shaw, or the Engineers only David and something Evolving on the Planet. We are arriving at the aftermath of David and Shaw's arrival on Paradise.
David has survived.... something Evolving related to the Xenomorph has survived.....
The COVENANT name has to be more than just the Ship, maybe David and the Engineers had a Covenant... but then David had broken this and Shaw and the Engineers had fell foul to Davids Agenda?
We really dont know for sure....
The source hinted a few things but was vague, and it seemed that yes we would meet Engineers, and something would happen to Shaw and David would play a role in creating something related to the Xenomorph.
Also seemed to hint that we would see some History played as a Flash Back...
The source claiming that David had a Agenda to be like God, as he sees that now he has the knowledge and tools that made those Engineers all powerful now he can play God... They claimed Shaw is Technically not dead and in order to RE-CREATE the Xenomorph that all you needed was the Tools and Knowledge which David has.
I dont know how much of the Source is correct or fabricated however.... they claimed we would see TWO Types of Xenomorph when Ridley was saying there would be no Xenomorphs...
They claimed one was a Past Event.... the other one at the hands of David.... both similar but different to each other and the Xenomorph.... One being similar to the Neconom 4 and Ultramorph and the other a Fresh Take on the Original Design.... which was based off the Necronom 4 and 5
However if there are Two Different ones then it cant be the other is based off Necronom 4 too and as they are both not Xenomorphs they both cant be based of the final Xenomorph Design.... so one had to be like the Ultramorph and the other some other design maybe Giger did...
Which has me wondering is it based off this?
As his other design is more closer to the Xenomorph?
But alas we dont know if the source was correct and if they are then we still dont know how much has been changed for Alien Covenant... one of the last things they did say was that there was a piece of art/concept work that did the rounds this year that was very very close to the look of one of the Monsters from the proposed Prometheus sequel.
And there has been a number of different pieces crop up that are not directly like the Xenomorph and the few different ones that did... do look like the Ultramorph to a degree.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"As far as David goes, maybe he understands the Engineers so good so that he will be the God so to speak? This could be interesting."
We have to remember the Engineers are not God, they are also Mortal... yes they live longer than Humans but so can David.
We have to ask if the Engineer Civilization on Paradise is in a strong position and has bad intentions for Mankind then why have we not been destroyed and if its because they decided we was not worth the effort... surely this would change once David and Shaw arrive?
If there is nothing left by the time David arrives, or very little and only a handful or so left.... then David has knowledge he can communicate with them...
He has a shared disappointment with Mankind and has Bargaining Tools.. in Shaw and the Cargo...
David can be manipulative and a trickster....
And if there is NOTHING or VERY LITTLE Left of Engineers on Paradise... well once they have been taken Care of... David would possess all their Knowledge and Technology and with the Gods out of the way...
Who is left to stop him becoming GOD?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Big Dave: Cryo sleep could be a possibility.
As far as finding some beings, maybe they are not the Engineers but rather related life forms (compare how apes are related to human beings)? Manipulating Shaw: I am just glad if we will have as little of her as possible in this movie. I just don't care about her honestly. Maybe David can take care of the answers in some way since I think that he was a way better character or maybe someone new which could be Daniels but it doesn't necessarily have to be her.
David seems to be an independent thinker, which I like so to see his agenda will be interesting.
Running away from the Engineers; that would be boring if they would repeat exactly what happened in Prometheus so I hope that they will come up with something else this time.
The bio weapon that David has got to have some sort of role something similar to “do what we want, or else!”. I am not sure how this will be executed in the movie but at least there is some sort of potential.
What would it be that David would like to have in order to cooperate with the Engineers? Let's say that immortality and life has some sort of role in this movie so maybe it will be related to that in some way?
Covenant could be a lot of things. It could involve the Engineers, David, and/or Daniels. My guess is that some of these three will be involved in it in some way but the question is how.
A short flash back of Paradise could make sense to connect the past and future of the planet.
I am not sure if we will need to see the Xeno but something related to it. Look at it in this way: first we have the Squid that impregnated the Engineer and we got the Deacon. Eventually there are some steps left until we get the Xeno. What we will see is not the Xeno but an earlier version of it, maybe? New monsters are OK but I hope that it won't reduce what is special about the Xeno. The Xeno could be at the top of the monsters ( = perfection, well almost since it is difficult to kill) but then they should be clear with that it is at the top even though I am not sure how you show that in an convincing way. Remember that Ash talked about it as if it would be the perfect killing machine (“A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality. “).
An Ultramorph could be interesting although I hope that they won't think that they should do a Xeno although bigger and better.
Hopefully they will make the Engineers as a bigger threat. The way it was in Prometheus was that they spoke some words and then it became angry. It wasn't very convincing actually it was more confusing than frightening which I don't think was the way that they intended it to be. Yes the scene could have worked but then they should have kept the sub-titles which unfortunately wasn't done.
The picture of the monster that you posted looks good. They could use something similar but it doesn't have to be a copy of it. Sometimes creative freedom can cause positive result and sometimes not.
“And there has been a number of different pieces crop up that are not directly like the Xenomorph and the few different ones that did... do look like the Ultramorph to a degree. “
I like this, not all monsters must look like the Xeno since I believe that the Engineers could have created more variations of monsters. This could give the Engineers a bigger role rather than if there would be just the Engineers and the Xeno, something that I think that you would find to be a good idea since you have said (and I agree in a way) that the Xeno has been done to death. Hopefully they will make the Engineers into a more threatening kind of life form.
I meant that David is high up in the hierarchy or something similar since if the Engineers create life and David can understand them he is closer to them than mankind is.
If there are very few Engineers left when they get to Paradise than I wonder how that will be compared to if there were more Engineers left. There was some photo a while ago that showed the Engineers that lied on the ground like some sort of Pompeii so maybe those were the ones that died and some of them maybe survived. Maybe there are not many left when they get to Paradise but some?
Sure but what interesting would it be with a whole planet and just one inhabitant (David)? Yes civilizations come and go but to just have one inhabitant on one planet doesn't seem very interesting if they haven't decided to make a Martian out of it.
Indeed so many interesting things with this movie and i am very intrigued into the changes...
The source had given a lot of information a long time ago and i think we need to take it with a pinch of salt.... but at the time they passed on information... Ridley Scott was saying things like "No more Gods and Dragons and if he sees one more Dragon... and only so much snarling you can do..."
The source mentioned a lot of things and some was very odd, and detailed yet vague they mentioned Planned Production dates, Budget, Plot Details and Bigger Cast and a lot of things.
That as time passed on and information came out, it all seemed to add up to what they had said... However it seems Alien Covenant is a re-write of the Plans they had... much like Spaights Alien Engineers to Lindeloffs Paradise
So the story has somewhat Evolved and Changed but it does carry some themes still.
Ridleys Comments about the sequel not long after Prometheus hit DVD, was that the movie ended with Two Possible outcomes... one went towards ALIEN the other would go into a New Direction. The movie had two open endings but they decided you cant have David and Shaw going off to find the Engineers Homeworld and not follow up on that.
And so this is what Plans for Prometheus 2 was going for, where Ridley had said they intended to Answer Why the Engineers had at the very least Created such Evil-Bio-Weapons. Ridley said that David and Shaw would end up on Paradise but Paradise would not be what Shaw would have hoped for and they would find these BEINGS and these beings are NOT Benevolent. Shaw would want her Questions Answered and we would to a degree find out maybe WHY we was created, then WHY they created Bio-Weapons to use on us. We would find some clues to the Xenomorph but the movie would be stepping away from Alien and a Xeno Flick.... And also we would get some clues about the connection between the Black Goo and Xenomorph because David was bringing Hell with him and what happens if the Bio-Weapon is used on GOD or a Machine?
In a Interview Rappace said she is looking forwards to finding out where Ridley is taking the series and that Shaw and David are off to find God... or maybe the Devil.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
It all went quiet as Ridley worked on Gods and Kings, and then the Martian but before the Martian was being worked on is when The Source dropped information that indeed they had Finished a Draft, and it would be similar to the outline that Ridley had given which i put above (FIRST)
However without going into to much detail, the source claimed that they was planning on production on Prometheus 2 and that indeed its very much Gods and Dragons at the time when Ridley said no more Gods and Dragons... they claimed the movie would have 3 Plot Devices and hinted it could be set over a Two-Part Movie.... One of the Plots would deal with David and Shaw and the journey to find the Engineers and get Answers... but this is the smallest Plot and there are TWO Larger ones.... And that this Plot does not revolve around David and Shaws shenanigans on the Juggernaught. They find a World related to the Engineers, and this place is not Paradise but more like Hell, Shaw gets her answers to a degree but they are even further from what she hoped as the Truth is very Dark and Sinister. Shaws role is not large... she however Technically does not Die... David wishes to be God. And there is a Event he creates that leads to something related to the Xenomorph...... ONE NEW MONSTER.
The movie has Two other Plots..... and the movie touches on the themes of Rebelion within the Hiearchy of creation where Son rebels and wishes to overthrow their Father, a Creator creates his Creation and his Creation overthrows the Creator and then also they sub-create and ultimately are overthrown by their creation and its a continuing Cycle... that DID-NOT start with the Engineers and DOES-NOT End with David 8.
There will be details to the Engineers and Agenda, and reasons for such things and there would be ANOTHER MONSTER from a past event.
Creation, Rebellion and Punishment and the Power and Danger that Forbidden Knowledge are the Key theme... The movie would revolve around a Plot that has Elements of the Promethean Mythos and that of Paradise Lost version of the Biblical Tale.... but they are only as far as connecting themes and its more closer to the theme explored in The Matrix
They expanded that the Engineers are not God, but merely a servant creation for some purpose and are more closer to David 8 and they followed the Agenda of a Greater Power.
Paradise is not the Engineer Homeworld as far as the Hierarchy and Origins of the Engineers, it is just the Headquarters of this Galaxy, hinting that the Engineers Scope goes beyond our Galaxy. They have created many Races, Mankind is just the latest Generation and Mankind had been to the Zeta System prior to Prometheus.
The Engineers possess powerful Tera forming Tools and can change and effect the climate on a World, they can affect how suitable Worlds are... they can do things such as cause ICE AGES and that they use such things as a Reset switch and so the Biblical stories of Floods etc are just part of the Process to Reset Worlds.
There is more detail than this but this is what kind of EVOLUTION to Ridleys ideas prior that the Prometheus Pandemonium Draft was going for......
Many Many Months latter and a year latter Ridley released comments that seem to tick a lot of these things...
But then we had the Alien Covenant name change...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
We get Alien Covenant a movie that would touch up more on the Connection to the Xenomorph and get back to Alien via the back door.... it would spawn 1 maybe 2 sequels with the 3rd movie most likely dealing with the Space Jockey Event that leads to Alien.
Where as Prometheus 2 was trying to branch off into a new area..... New Story <==== Prometheus ====> Alien
Its seemed they are now going to connect more back to Alien, but in order to do that they would still have to explore where the Origin of the Xenomorph came from and it seems its connected to the Evil-Biology the Engineers created.
We will find out WHY they (Engineers) created it, why it was Bio-Mechanical.
We would be going to the Planet of the Engineers (Paradise) but the Movie would start off and be about another ship thats incoming after David and Shaws Ship.... 10 years after David and Shaw set off, we have a Colony Ship that has Couples who are searching for a New World to set up and start a new Life on.... they believe they are going to find Uncharted Paradise (means they believe they are the first).
What they find is a World where its only occupant is David 8 from Prometheus (no signs of Shaw or Engineers) but there is something Evolving on that World that the Engineers created (or something Evolved from the Evil Biology they created).
The crew of the Covenant soon discover that this is no Paradise, its a scene of disaster and something related to the Xenomorph is unleashed upon them.
We would start to see the seeds to How the Xenomorph would come to be..... and Why it (or the Biology that leads to it) was created and for what purpose.
The Crew of the Covenant are killed off over a series of days, not a all in one massacre and we will see Multiple Chest Busters. We will see every stage of the Xenomorph... Egg, Face Huger, Chest Buster and Big Guy.... but maybe its not the Traditional One Yet..... but something that Evolves to it?
The SYNOPSIS does not include Shaw or Engineers..... but Shaw is cast but she only joined for 1 week of the 15 week Total Shooting.... which means maybe her role is very small.
She is not in the Synopsis and so she is no where to be found at first if at all, by the Covenant Crew.... but she would be cast to appear in some Scenes or a Scene?
The Engineers are omitted to but we are said to arrive at the scene of a Disaster.... is this Disaster previous to when David arrived and why is Shaw not with David when the Covenant arrives?
We have seen a scene that was shot, that is some kind of disaster or punishment where we see Humanoids that include Females who are in what we could say as Perfect Shape (not overweight, not skinny) these Humanoids are Bald, could this be due to some kind of disaster or fire... but why are their loincloths intact?
The scene shows us monuments and walls that have the same Engineer Writing that the LV-223 Cave/Outposts had.
Is it logical that these beings are related to the Engineers? are they Engineers is this a Natural Disaster, or a Punishment or the result of a War? And if these Engineers or related beings are in abundance then did they know about LV-223 and the plans to destroy Mankind... and why have they not been back.... if these beings in that Scene had been alive at the time of Davids Arrival?
Did David unleash Hell on them? or is this a scene from the Ancient Past?
The Scene is either a long past Flash Back like the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus.... or its some event at the hands of David 8
Regardless David 8 has been on Paradise for a while, and Shaw is no where to be seen, and neither is any Engineers.
So its safe to assume that Alien Covenant is the Aftermath of any planned Events that Prometheus 2 was going to explore.
YOU CAN BET DAVID 8 has played a Big Role in this...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I remember that Ridley said something about no more dragons which I took as being no more Xenos but I think that they should have some details about it without telling us everything.
David's and Shaw's journey to Paradise is one thing but I think that it would be boring if we would just see David and Shaw all the time. If the Engineers would be hostile and not what Shaw hoped for them it could be interesting. Hopefully we won't get all the details to the Xeno but at least know why they created it even though we won't need to see how it was done, I think that they should leave that up to the imagination.
The black goo could be interesting but I also hope that they will not give us all the answers to that.
David's creation (the new monster) will be interesting to see. I hope that it will be something nasty even though I doubt that they can out-do (is that a word?) the Xeno. Hopefully he won't create it because he is evil but because he is curious and well, bad things happen even though it might not be his intention. Please don't make David as another Ash.
The power theme could be interesting because bio-weapons is a piece of a power game. Compare the Xenos to bio-weapons.
The terraforming that the Engineers can do could be interesting, I hope that they will make that into serious threat, like the nuclear bomb maybe? Imagine a dictator that has atom bombs that he uses when ever he wants to, that would be nasty. Hopefully they will do something similar to terraforming and the Engineers.
Something like this could be a dialogue
Shaw: David, tell them what these things are for
(David asks a question and gets an answer)
David: They say that they are creators, sometimes creation goes wrong and then you will have to... start all over.
This start all over part could be a clue to the agendas of the Engineers. David could tell this with the voice that is very factual (no emotions). A human being would add emotions to something like that but not David since he is an android and smart also, which would make it scary that he hasn't any emotional stakes in it like humans would have. You got to make it scary though, maybe they could look at how psychopaths are when they will do that scene if they will have something similar to it.
The Xeno as a bio-weapon that can be done in a lab could be interesting.
The new characters could be interesting, I really hope that they will have someone that is better at making characters this time. A movie can't just have one interesting character out maybe ten? David is interesting but I think that they must compensate for the fiasco of many (not all) of the characters that were in Prometheus. I have mentioned some of the characters that I didn't find interesting so I won't repeat it here.
Why the Engineers made it could be interesting but they don't need to explain why it was bio-mechanical. There are some details that I don't think that they need to explain.
As far as the new characters are concerned (those that you write are looking for a planet to start over) I hope that there are not too many of them. It can be difficult to keep focus if there are too many of them but maybe all of them don't need to play very important roles in the movie, that is just the way I look at it. Movies where there are many things to focus on at the same time are confusing IMO. Sure movies should be made to make you think and to question things; if they do that then they have succeeded but then they need good characters and a story that is interesting enough.
When you say that we will see how the Xeno came to be do you mean that we will see how it was made but not exactly how it was made the first time? I think that you wrote that one would just need to have the tools in order to re-create it. This could be interesting because we wouldn't know the circumstances of how it was when it was first created.
The crew of the Covenant that get killed: I hope that they will keep that in darkness so we won't see exactly how it happens, like they did in the scene when Lambert was raped and killed. Hopefully it will be made in a new way maybe as far as how the circumstances were when it happened but that they get killed but to have it in common that we don't exactly see how it was when they died.
Maybe they can have the traditional Xeno in a small role I think that could be alright just for keeping the link to Alien but new monsters are more interesting. The traditional Xeno could be there in maybe one or two scenes to make a clear connection to Alien (1979) but new monsters could be more interesting if they are well done.
As far as being an aftermath of something, maybe so but I am not sure if we got to know everything that happened up to that point.
Hopefully the movie will have a clearer connection to the Alien movie this time. Keep the studio executives away from it and the chances increase that it will be good. (LOL!)
"When you say that we will see how the Xeno came to be do you mean that we will see how it was made but not exactly how it was made the first time?"
This is what the source had hinted at....
But i cant guarantee the source is correct and besides we dont know what changes are made to any plans they have with Alien Covenant compared to what they had intended for Prometheus 2 as of just after Prometheus.
The source claimed the movie would only had been 20% connected to Xeno DNA and it was in no way a Xeno movie to the way the others in the franchise was... but it would have more Xeno DNA and Xenos than Prometheus... they said it was kind of in between Spaights and Lindeloffs as far as Xenomorph time and connections.
It was dealing with the Agenda and Fallout of a Rebellion in the past more than anything and how this contributed to how the Xenomorph could come to be.
As far as the Re-create i think it pointed to maybe the Xenomorph as far as those Eggs in Alien did not get created in a event from after Prometheus.... but knowing how they got created Thousands of years ago means you could Re-create them.
As far as Alien Covenant... i really am not sure where they are going with this..... Micheal Beihn did say that as far as he was told (have to be by Fox, Ridley or Blomkamp) Alien Covenant is set THOUSANDS of years before Aliens
The Synopsis shows us actually its set about 75 years prior... But this does not rule out Flash Backs and the Scene of Disaster does match a few things the source had said and so could likely be a scene set thousands of years ago.
Then some event had occurred Thousands of years ago
Which makes sense.... unless the Prometheus Clues and Frescos are all just a Prophecy of events to come.... But then how do they explain the Chest Busted Cryo-Pods on a Ship that had the Last Engineer Asleep for a long long time.
If Covenant to some degree is to answer the Why... and it is connected to a time when Engineers from Paradise had visited Earth over and over... then all of a sudden something happens.... that lead to experiments on LV-223 intended to use on Earth that ultimately lead to the downfall of the Engineers on LV-223 and perhaps for most part Paradise too.
Then Narrative by David, supported by visual Flash Backs depicting what David is saying would make a lot of sense.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I am fine with the fact that it won't be a pure Xeno movie, 20% seems alright to me. As long as they are much clearer about the Xeno connection than Prometheus was it is good. Well changes happen so that is just to be expected, no big deal. Hopefully they will add more ideas from the Spaight's script this time if they go back and look at it.
If they won't have as much bout the Xeno in this one, which is fine by me the they need to make the characters a lot better. The Engineers must be very much improved to be made interesting compared to how they were portrayed in Prometheus. My worry is that they will mess up the characters and make the Engineers (again) seem dumb if there will be any Engineers that meet humans in it at all. Hopefully the Engineers will have subtitles this time when they speak one thing that annoyed me very much is that they didn't have subtitles when the Engineer spoke with Weyland in Prometheus because that would have made so much more sense. Who ever decided to remove the sub-titles made a bad decision.
Hopefully they will deal with them theme of rebellion and so on in a way that makes sense. I hope that it will be less ambiguous than Prometheus although it doesn't need to be dumbed down. Eventually they will have made the Engineers more interesting this time than they were in Prometheus where I am not sure if I cared about them very much.
75 years before Alien makes sense to me. It is not too close to Alien and not too far from. Flash backs could be used to make it easier to connect the past and present, for example what happened to the Engineers. To me this seems to be a movie where you don't need to go back 1000 years in time to see what happened. Correct me if I am mistaken but this is my guess as far as the time-line and besides what is it that says that they haven't tried to bomb us with Xenos before?
You mention the fresco and the images there. Maybe it is both something that have happened and some thing that will come later. Perhaps they try to clean up worlds on a regular basis? This could maybe explain the sleeping Engineer, I am not sure.
Unfortunately since there were so many vague things in Prometheus they have a lot to explain. Hopefully they will explain some of the things that happened in Prometheus in this movie so it will make more sense when and if people go back and watch it.
I hope that they will explain some of what LV-223 was about although they don't need to spend a lot of time on it. This is a question that I find less interesting but they can spend some time explaining it if it is needed to understand the bio-weapons of the Engineers that is.
As far as the narrative of David he did some of that in Prometheus and it wasn't very clear. Sure he could have a similar role in this one but they got to do it better since it seems to me that people judge from what they are seeing as far as movies are concerned.
I think Prometheus had a lot of things going on that if expanded in detail would have made for a longer movie and distracted or effected the pacing.
The Engineer Speaks for instance.... i think if they added subtitles it may have distracted from the Mystery and Alien nature of the Engineers.... we dont want a Star Trek everyone speaks English Universe....
But yes David could roughly translate... which he did a bit but the conversation between David and the Engineer was longer, maybe longer than the deleted one and so even if David translated every word or rounded it up.... it would add to the length of the movie and distract from things a bit....
So ideally yes the DVD bonus Scenes could have subtitles.
As far as the Engineers a lot was changed.... there was a lot cut out... and the end result we just got some Bald Alien Dude who cared little for Mankind who was woken up.... saw pesky Humans they had meant to destroy turn up on his Door Step and off he went to finish the job.
There was more to them than this...... But Ridley latter after making cuts said he did not wish to meet God in the first movie.... which is why Elders was Cut...
This means the Engineers are not Gods... they are meatbags... they are either just like the Marines... or they are like David 8 and purely just Tools and Biological Terminators for the greater Agenda.... of the Hierarchy
But Servants, Robots can rebel..... David has shown signs of Rebellion against serving Mankind... and so maybe the Engineers did the same with their creators... The Matrix has the same theme.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Big Dave: Maybe that but I think that some things should have been expanded on and some should have been cut. If there is a scene that is important then you need to have some sort of explanation for it. All scenes are not equally important but if there is a scene that is very important to the movie (like the opening scene was) then you got to have some subtitles or else it will make no sense. The importance of pacing shouldn't be on the expense of the story.
I don't think that it would have made the Engineers less mysterious because it still wouldn't have explained everything but rather it would have made it a bit more understandable. No, I am not saying that everyone should speak English but that some subtitles would have been nice. Maybe I misunderstand you.
Having the movie a bit longer isn't a problem for me as long as things don't get confused. You can cut a movie from being three hours to being 1,5 hour but that doesn't necessarily make it better, it depends on what scenes that you keep and what scenes that you cut and how you cut them. Pacing should never be prioritized at the expense of the story so to speak, but that is my opinion.
You write about the DVD having subtitles, well if they don't have it in the movie theater then how many do you expect will think that it is a good movie? Maybe many won't bother after that since their first viewing was not good in their opinions. My point is that you got to make a movie that is good enough before you can expect people to go and buy it and if the version that they get in the movie theaters is bad then you can't expect them to buy the DVD or Blu-ray because then they think “oh that was the movie that didn't make sense”.
Yes I remember that Ridley said something about not having God in the first movie but it was still a bad decision. Exactly: they wake up an angry alien that just wants them dead without any logical explanation what so ever. How do you expect people to accept a movie like that when mistakes of that degree are all over it? I don't think that Prometheus's place is in a trash can but I understand if some people have that opinion.
As far as the creators of the Engineers are concerned I am not really interested in who they are. They could hint at that by allowing the Engineers to have religious ceremonies but I think that the focus should be on other things.
I think your views are somewhat in line with how they have gone with Alien Covenant and that Engineers are the smaller part of the reason for the prequels.... and the Xenomorph is the big thing.... so instead of the route of the Xeno is only a small part of the bigger Plot of the Engineers... this then expands on the franchise in a different direction at the cost of ignoring the Xeno.... not they realized this and its to place the Engineers in the back ground more.
I agree with what you was trying to say....
I think they may have felt that Subtitles would take away from the Mystery of this Race..... they want to keep them a bit Alien and not to close to Humans.... we dont get or need Subtitles for Predators.... and i think thats what the point was.
But we also have to remember that David was in a way partially translating.... so you did not get Word for Word what David said, or the Engineer but David let us know the broad strokes.
I think the biggest thing to remember is they Changed their minds...
some reason why they removed the Elders Scene, and toned down the Engineer Speaks Scenes and maybe also did the alternative Engineer finds Shaw Scene.
I think these Changes could be to do with how they intended to now show the Engineers, which i think is to paint them as being more Sinister and Wicked...
And going for the Engineers being a Sub-servant Race to some other Race who are pulling the Strings.
So they may want to re-design the Elders or Replace them as it was the Sacrificial Engineer carrying out a command and ritual that the Elders decide upon for a great cause for their race... The Elders are perhaps the Hierarchy in the first movie plans.
If they then decided they did not want to meet God in the first movie which is what Ridley said in relation to that scene being cut... this means he has Plans for a Higher Race who are pulling the Strings.... and so the Elders are being re-booted and replaced..
Which is then why there was no need for that full Scene.
Also if the Engineers are now being portrayed as a lower caste of a Hierarchy, this is maybe why they cut down the David and Engineer Scene...
If the Engineers are now just Biological Terminators or like David is to Mankind.... and they wished to show the Engineers as having no compassion or empathy or interest in Mankind... then clearly the full Engineer Speaks scene had to be cut down.
So this was done.... and then via David the Audience was told what to say to the Engineer and he told Weyland what the Engineer roughly said..... so for the cut down scene and new role for the Engineers they perhaps saw there was no need for subtitles as David had basically covered what the Topic of Conversation was.
We have to remember the deleted scene was not even the full version that was shot.... The full version Ian Whyte and Micheal Fassbender had to learn pages of dialect and Whyte even acted out the scene himself.
There was more than was shown... and the conversations did have and could have been translated.... but they dubbed over Whytes performance with a Voice Over and some of the Dialect this Voice over did was gibberish and made up.
Where as the actual shooting on set was a ancient language and only Fassbenders that remained as such...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Big Dave: I appreciate that they give the Xeno a bigger role than they initially did but I am afraid that there will be very spoon-fed answers. The answers in Prometheus were too vague so they need to do that in a better way but that is not to say that it should be extremely obvious. Hopefully they will not sacrifice the story of the Engineers totally since I hope that they will expand a bit about them.
Well here is the thing: Predators were more of action movies, right? If so then there is not a very deep thought behind them so to not have subtitles there makes sense sort of. I think that when you make a story about the Engineers and their purpose and so on then it is a story when there are things that you need to know in order to follow the story. The information that the Engineer gave when he spoke seems to me to be important to the story, therefore they should have had subtitles to it because if they don't it just becomes nonsense and silly. My guess what ever it is worth is that they didn't think things through as far as having a even somewhat logical story.
David translated some of it, I agree but maybe that wasn't enough. People probably pay more attention to what they see than what is being said (I do at least when it comes to movies) and that was a mistake.
As far as having the Engineers more sinister that is alright but you got to make sense of them. What ever direction they might take could be interesting as long as it makes sense. Humans can react in many ways and so can probably the Engineers for different reasons.
The elders seems to me to be like the priests in the Mayan society or something similar in that they are high up in the hierarchy. Maybe this could be expanded upon a bit, we'll see.
The Engineers as biological terminators could be interesting and something that I think that I have written about in some of my posts. I am not sure if they had to cut down the Engineer speaks scene in order to show them as more menacing. They should have had subtitles to it, that wouldn't have declined their sinister role IMO but it would rather have made it more understandable.
I understand what you mean when they thought that we would follow the scene via the translation by David but I think that is to demand that people pay too much attention. Maybe we weren't shown the whole scene but at least it would have made more sense to have subtitles to understand what it was about in general. There was something about Weyland wanting more life and what not that he said to the Engineer and I think that it should have remained in the movie at least it would have more sense than to just let the Engineer rip off David's head. Hopefully they understand that they need to have subtitles to things that are important to the story, as far as AC goes.
"The elders seems to me to be like the priests in the Mayan society or something similar in that they are high up in the hierarchy"
Yes this seemed to be the case when they was working on the movie, and also like other cultures like Native Indians, or even Star Wars Jedis lol.... as far as Obi Wan/Yoda in EP 3-4 and so the Elders looked older because they were vastly more Ancient Engineers than the Younger Sacrificial Engineer.
It appears after shooting and then editing of the movie they have chosen to explore the Engineers/Gods role more in a way that they seem to be choosing at least TWO Caste system now.... so the Engineers to their Creators/Elders are as we are to the Engineers we are connected but not the same.
It seems these changes had effected what Scenes they was showing and in effect the Engineers on LV-223 and indeed whole movie are being shown in a different light.
They did not create us..... they was used to create us.
And so if they are essentially Biological Davids to the Engineers Creators then maybe this is also why they cut down the Engineer and David Conversation.
The Deleted Scene was longer, and maybe this would have needed some Subtitles but as far as Original Shooting, it appears the Scene was longer and would have had a dialog between Fassbender and Whyte that would have Translated to something that would maybe have given too much away.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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