Posted Aug-27-2016 4:52 PM
Posted Aug-27-2016 6:01 PM
It would be ironic for the most powerful force of nature to be a construct in and of itself. A form of 'rogue dimension' personified in physical form, wherein the avatar we witness as beings of the mortal plane is a mere tendril or minute extremity of a far larger and far far far more powerful force that threatens to tear apart the fabric of spacetime as we know it...
Posted Aug-27-2016 11:04 PM
I know this has been discussed many times and from a number of perspectives before I joined these discussions. On the last occasion I recall a thread with "Lone".
Ridley's sub creative message maybe that "God" is beyond a definition. It is about "Pi" Mathematics it is about the "Elements 118 +" Science and yet in their somewhere is morality "mind'. Whether God = Robot is less important than our relationship with God is defined by behaviour.
The Engineers (Igigi) rebelled against the hierarchy (Annunaki) their is a morality there laid down by the Pi/Science/Mind = God.
The story he maybe telling is that because of the Engineers rebellion, which included the steeling of the fire, "God" made a choice and humankind were saved by Gods intervention which caused the disaster on "Paradise'. The reason the Engineers may have wanted to eradicate mankind as it was "all going to pot" was in retribution for Gods choice. They wanted to destroy us because God had replaced the Engineers in their mind with mankind.
We have talked about creator/creation dynamics but it maybe more subtle the creator may make a choice between the created and the sub created.
David as part of the mathematical strain then seeks a similar rebellion to the Engineers and of course picks up the tools that the Engineers have left behind.
If we mean God is pure mathematics, I think not, but equally mathematics is part of how God can be represented and understood.
Rather like the Parable of the Blind Man and the Elephant that has crossed between many religious traditions and is part of Jain, Buddhist, Sufi, Hindu and Bahá’í lore.
If David "discovers" he is part of that larger vision he maybe redeemed, how he ends Covenant will be most interesting, not forgetting one of them will be "sacrificed" to the story, indeed the corruption of David Covenant may plant the seed of David Prometheus redemption.
Posted Aug-28-2016 4:50 AM
this is a very interesting subject...i just wouldn't want the god of the engineers to end up beying a robot...it would echo the same kinda plot twist as the movie A.I. and wouldn't serve anything new for me.... but I feel your curiosity about it..cuz i mean we, as humans must have a creator, and who created god...and so forth....so it isn't an impossible notion to think the engineer's god(s) could very well be artificial....
I personally wouldn't want it to be true..
I would want the god(s) to be real extra terrestrials.. Im hoping the god(s) or god is a huge huge mystical creature....possibly looking like an elephant without ears...like what the pilots imitate with their helmets and suits... initially mocking what they see.... like how this indigenous tribe did after they saw an airplane for the first time
or like the more grotesque giger designs
or the vimana gods of india
"Must be something we haven't seen yet.."__Bishop
Posted Aug-28-2016 10:43 AM
No problem, yea if you watch A.I,
****Spoiler***** dont read if you haven't seen it***
but david sinks, freezes in a spot when he finally finds the fairy godmother...as time flies by.....human beings are extinct...and aliens who are robotic themselves.....retrieve david, turn him back on, read his mind, and grant him his wish to be with his mother forever ageless... so what i mean, is that the aliens in A.I are robots....so i wouldn't want to see the same in alien covenant,....we kinda already had that vibe shown when the engineer saw david and ripped his head off....so why would it surprise us again if the engineers themselves have a creator that maybe robotic in nature aswell. It would be a paradox we already explored and considered in Prometheus......the rabbit hole has to be, and needs to be deeper than that.
"Must be something we haven't seen yet.."__Bishop
Posted Aug-29-2016 11:27 AM
To the OP, I don't equate the lines on the faces as being evidence of robotics. In many cultures some kind of paint or tattooing is very common. Maybe this is what the artist is suggesting.
Remember those big head statues on the Ascension Islands is it? Could this be similar to what ancient man was depicting?
I seem to recall one of the early Star Trek movies had a plot where a "Voyager" sat was found by a machine civilization, upgraded to the max, and sent back to earth.
I did not find that very satisfying either, so I must agree with those that say enough of AI; we have enough trouble with our own.
Posted Aug-30-2016 11:19 AM
I just ordered the Pyramids feature on Lovefilm will report back thanks for the heads up.
Funnily enough I was thinking about V'ger over the last couple of days when this thread came up. That was the first Star Trek movie and the story did not make any emotional connection at all. Indeed I thought the Trilogy begun with Khan completely marginalised it.
I actually think there is an interesting analogy between the proposed Pandaemonium sequel very ethereal and eclectic and Covenant which is personality driven and story telling based and gives us an intimate personal entrée to the big questions.
You need a personal compass to guide you through a story and a machine is only as interesting as what it goes up against. God may well be a machine but define machine. I would much rather we consider God as being ultimately responsible for the universe at an artistic level where mind created matter. One things for sure the script between the Elders and the acolyte that Big Dave has shared with us meant our sacrificial acolyte had a soul so he sure has hell was not a god damn robot indeed the catalyser alone and its reaction on him tells us that.
Posted Aug-31-2016 4:47 PM
I've said it before and I'll reiterate, the look the Engineer gives David upon realizing what he is, speaks volumes. That exchange and that reaction seemed all too personal and didn't really seem like a reaction to Weyland's questions.
It's as if he saw David and knew of the evil Humanity had unleashed. Artificial Intelligence is the evil unleashed from Pandora's Box, if you will and if this ties into the God is AI theory, it could tie in nicely to the Engineer rebellion theory. Perhaps not God, but definitely a higher power and one above the Engineer's hierarchy.
Weapons of mass destruction are made for war. Janek made it clear LV-223 was an installation for just that. However the weapons they were creating were designed to attack sentient, organic life forms. Xenomorphs would be ineffective against an AI army, unless the Engineers are using the Xenos as a "conversion" tool, to essentially "transform" entire populations into Alien soldiers, to be used against the AI beings. Acid blood certainly would make a mess of metallic armor and wiring. It's such a huge theory to tackle, so many angles and so many ways it could go!
Posted Aug-31-2016 10:00 PM
Ive heard many civs have fallen into the AI trap very very few have survived it, in the end all flesh rots.
The lines look more like augmentation or a type of natural armour. Mayhap that its the figure of an ancient hero (jesus, washington, caeser..etc), rather the first of their kind or emperor. Remember emperor's are considered living gods.
The 2nd one reminds me of pinhead.
Posted Sep-01-2016 1:53 AM
In Ridleys commentary and Damon and Johns they talk through the logic of dealing with the Engineer scene visually, rather than orally, and Ridley makes the point that the Engineer wakes up and is dealing with effectively a lot of chimpanzees gibbering at him and is actually insulted by a robot speaking to him. If you take the extended scene he is responding to Sir Peter's vain glorious assumption that we are gods together and responds by killing him by using his creations head, the perfect physical metaphor. The touch of David's head may appear, to use Ridley's words, "like a blessing" but his final thought is his next move.
Damon makes the point that the Engineers had effectively given up on mankind by the time this guy rushed off to incubate himself from the break out. He also said we can guess as to whether we are like a Petri Dish or more prosaically being evolved and that the answer can be in future movies if they are made. I liked that sentiment
The other matter which I noted re running the commentary is that the script writers deliberately intended to convey the message that the pilot in A L I E N was not in some way a victim but was responsible for those Eggs in the hold and the ensuing outcome. That indicates how he got infected is not a philosophical point about the nature of interaction between different species but a narrative story telling one which suggests an accident or wrong doing by those involved in the story behind it.
I have used the word God but I think the next layer of the cake, which will need to be revealed in Covenant to explain the disaster of Paradise, are another layer of the hierarchy.
Posted Sep-15-2016 6:55 AM
With regards to the head who knows.... those markings could just be the artistic atheistic the Engineers used... So it does not have to mean its a Robot....
Alien Covenants Head Statues are more like traditional Ancient Monument ones and lack those Lines on them.
I always felt maybe the Dialog in the movie was guiding us to more clues than what was show visually and Shaw and Janeks conversations and Shaws with Holloway guide us to what is a Biological Experiment that had got loose... like Ebola.
So if we look at the dialog and comments made by the cast, then i think was it Milburn who mentioned in regards to that Big Head Statue... "is that God"?
As far as the ROBOT GOD theory... who knows.... Ridley Scott did say regarding Prometheus 2 in 2013 i think.... that THEY "Shaw and David" are off to the Planet of the Engineers, where they find some beings who are not GODS and are not Benevolent...
Then he says David is bringing Hell with him and what happens if the Black Goo infects... GOD or a MACHINE.
This could be taken as what if the Goo infects the Engineers, or David... it could be taken as if maybe the Machine is not David... and God is not Engineers.... and so it could mean God/Machine are referred to the same thing.
Ridley did of late, well after Alien Paradise Lost was announced but prior to Alien Covenant.... that if the Engineers are the forerunners to Mankind... then who/what is responsible for how Worlds are able to be suitable so that the Engineers can seed life how they do...
Ridley then asks..... WHERE IS THE BIG GUY! and then poses that maybe the Big Bang was not a Accident
This teases at a Higher Power being at the Top of the Hierarchy and who knows how close or different this being/power is to Mankind/Engineers.
Ridley did also then however, seem to point to there being no singular God perhaps by putting in context of Paradise Lost maybe God/Satan on Level Terms... When he referred to you have one Guy who goes to all the clubs, gets all the Girls... while there is another guy who stays at home and is boring.
This could hint to God/Satan and that Satans Antics are more interesting and being a bit of a Rebel is Fun... Ridley did say that in context of Paradise Lost Poem that the Fallen Angels are the ones who had the most fun.
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
Posted Sep-15-2016 2:48 PM
The point i am about to make is not dissimilar in its underlying point to the forerunner post but it is about a different topic.
In 2014 when the sequel was in its "Pandemonium" phase Ridley offered the idea that David was bringing hell to a Paradise which was itself philosophically inverted and had a matrix like quality. He also talked about what if the Goo infected a God or Machine. I think its perfectly possible when Paradise was considered to be "alive" that the early, in script terms, notion of a fall was a world run by machines into which David and Shaw stumbled and where both Shaw and David despite different agendas wanted to infect it.
Whether they appeared early on and the incoming crew third strand was beginning or end and had xeno refractions who knows but it may well be they built on the imagery of Prom and made the fall the take over by machines.
This was an Engineer heavy Xeno light phase and of course all this has changed including a sense that their is this layered hierarchy which is crucial to the world building.
However there was enough headroom in the story for Prom 2 to move in that direction. Now with A C I think the Xeno centred story helps refocus the philosophical pre occupations and makes them less enigmatic and more grounded. Put simply use a more traditional fall mechanism and make the narrative more mankind and emotionally intimate . A single transformed David can tell us more about humanity than a multiple open ended approach.
Posted Sep-18-2016 2:37 AM
That could be a possibility. A lot of cultures have had their own idea about what a God is. If we look at Hinduism you can see that there are many different Gods there. Paganism was common in Scandinavia before they became Christians and if I am correct the old Scandinavian religion had many Gods. These are some examples. Maybe the God of the engineers is a robot? We will see in AC maybe but I am more interesting to learn more about the black goo and their bio-weapons.
Posted Sep-20-2016 6:39 AM
Maybe that 4th image is different to the one on set in the shots of the scene of disaster or infighting.... i thought it was the in progress work on the one used outside as both heads have the top above the nose missing and the lines are not similar like the Prometheus ones.
But these lines could be added latter... so who knows... i have a feeling maybe those scenes are showing us the Engineers from the Ancient past prior to them getting their hands on Bio-Technology that we see evident in the Juggernaught and Outpost on LV-223 a very HR Giger Matter Atheistic.... this Engineer Bio-Mechanics and the Xenomorph have to be connected in some way.. i would like to think the Engineers created their Technology from something related to the Xenomorph .... but then the notion seems to be that they created the Xenomorph or the Tools needed to create it.
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
Posted Sep-20-2016 6:57 AM
As far as a Robot.... who knows, Ridley used the Term Machine i think, it was either that or Robot but i am sure it was a Machine when he said what if the Goo effected a God or Machine (or Robot maybe?).
If its a Machine then it does not have to be anything related to Humanoid in Shape.
There was a Old Game Called the DOOM series from 1993 that was re-created this year.... but the original sequel Doom 2 had a Final Level called the Icon of Sin which showed the Boss as being some Demonic Head attached to a Machine that Created all the Games Monsters from out of nothing or acted as a means to teleport them from the other reality that was Hell.
Here is a Artists re-creation of that Boss in HD as the original was low resolution.
The Demon Head does look a lot like Satan in HR Gigers work, in fact the original games Boss looked more like Gigers Satan.
We see a lot of HR Gigers work with Satan as him being attached to a Machine below is one piece in particular that has a bit of that look of the Doom 2 boss about it
Maybe we cant rule out the God is a Machine?
The Source which again we have to take with a pinch of salt, did say one Concept work for Prometheus 2 showed what looked like a Humanoid attached in Cruciform to a Machine or like a HR Giger inspired Bio-Mechanical Church Chancel
They said the image looked a lot like Superman 3 Robot Girl Scene where a Woman was attacked and attached to the Giant Supercomputer and the Computer started to make her into a Robot
This implies some Humanoid is attached to some Machine and fused with it... in some kind of Sacrifice.
Who knows if this is correct, a lot of HR Giger work depicts similar and the Source did say in response to rumors a long time ago about Shaw being killed off Early in Prometheus 2.... that she Technically does not Die.
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
Posted Sep-20-2016 7:02 AM
However again we can go back to the Big Head in Prometheus which if you look at that Superman 3 video and see the changes to the Womans face.... you can see the Prometheus head statue as if it was a Human Head thats getting something maybe Mechanical attached to it... i.e those lines as if they are wires and the like.
So this Head Statue could represent some kind of Robot, Milburns comment about "is that God" is maybe aimed to show us this particular Engineer or what ever being is the one responsible for our creation perhaps? And that this Head Statue is maybe the Prometheus?
As far as David 8 goes, then yes it would be a bit of a Plot Twist if it ends up the Head Statue is David 8 and he thus because God from the Future... but i hope they dont go for that kind of Paradox Story... but then Ripley had taken some ideas from 2001 Space Odyssey as far as inspiration for some of Prometheus so who knows.
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
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