Human to Alien morphing in Alien: Covenant and Black Goo effects on Male vs. Female hosts1 Upvotes55 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
In Prometheus, we saw that those of the crew who were infected directly by the Black Goo (all male) exhibited symptoms of a drastic change within them and their own DNA. Deleted scenes showed Fifield (who lasted the longest) inherit many traits of the Xenomorph - losing his eyes, growing limbs and an elongated dome. Though this concept was scrapped in favor of the zombie-look we got in the film's final cut, the concept of Humam-to-Alien metamorphosis is still a hot topic for Alien: Covenant.
Following the news which revealed Black Goo and those Urns which contain it will be present in Alien: Covenant, along with the numerous theories fans have shared on our forums, it certainly seems like Alien: Covenant will build off of this Prometheus concept.
My question though is, what will the final product look like?
Does the morphing caused by Black Goo result in the same "completed transformation" or is each outcome unique?
How will the Black Goo affect female Human beings vs their male counterparts who come into contact with it?
Obviously there's no way for us to know for sure just yet. But, assuming Alien: Covenant will build upon this trait of the Engineer bio-technology, I'd love to hear what you think.
Personally, I suspect the Black Goo's "end result" differs from host to host, like the Xenomorph. I also think having a female exposed to the matter may trigger some form of secondary metamorphosis within the process - potentially creating a means of reproducing its "end result" asexually, like that of the Queen, or even similar to the popular "Egg Morphing" concept from Alien.
Well i think Prometheus gave us clues... but we could not rubber stamp a one size fits all conclusion... the Sources comments have helped though.. but i dont think we need them to piece together what we could see
I dont know exactly whats up with the Goo now... or where they are going and so this would be based on the theory that the Urns dont contain the same as the Sacrificial Cup.
The whole connection made sense to me, and especially once i read Spaights Draft and we just replace Nano Scarabs with the Goo....
Spaights draft had just Scarabs in both the Sacrificial Bowl and Urns but we need to not look at this but how they worked.
Scarabs ==>consume Organisms Genetic Material and Store its DNA. This DNA is contained in the Scarabs which when they then bite another Organism (after they have stored DNA from a Organism they have consumed) they then pass on this stored Organisms DNA onto a new Host and this Organisms DNA is then Evolved and it has Traits of the Organism consumed via Sacrificial Scene passed onto it.
Scarab==> Consumes Engineer DNA ==>Passes it onto Early Primate ==> Mankind..
Thus Evolution from Ape to Human was not Evolution but it was a Hybrid DNA Process caused via the Sacrificial Scene.
Fifield runs into a Urn and knocks it over and we get Scarabs that then bite Fifield and we see the same effect on his DNA (its described as Foreign DNA invading his cells and mutating them) but Fifield is changed into something with Xeno Traits.
Which Logically could mean that something related to the Xenomorph was Consumed Molecule by Molecule by Sacrificial Scarabs and these Scarabs with their now Cargo of Xeno DNA inside them are caught and stored in those Urns.
Replace Scarabs with Goo and we can have the same Process...
Sacrificial Goo, breaks down Engineers DNA and the resulting Mutagen/Virus then carries the Engineers DNA and passes it onto any life it then comes into contact with causing a Hyrbid and Evolution and passing on Engineer DNA.
I assume it evolves basic life, because the World had plant life and for that it would have had to have basic life at very least in the water.
The Urns in Prometheus we see Evolve the Worms to enhance its own traits (regeneration) and pass on Xeno traits (Acid Blood) and a look similar to the Xeno Face Huger if only mild...
Fifield was confusing but not when we consider the description in the Draft (Lindeloffs) and the alternative scene and concept work.
Thus those Urns contain something that was broken down by the Sacrificial Goo... i think the Mural and Sacrificial Bowl on the altar in the Trailer adds to this especially when early drafts had the Engineer stand Cruciform as he was being broken down by the Sacrificial Goo.
This is the Basics of the Substance of Creation... from what i had taken from it... i cant say if this is now how Fox intend it.
But i will ASSUME this is correct for my next theories in relation to the OP
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Now i have covered what i think the Goo does...
I can now tackle what it does in regards to this post.. I think the Goo in the Sacrificial Cup breaks down the DNA of a Organism and passes it onto others that come into contact with it... thus Sacrifice a Wolf and Humans come into contact with the resulting Goo... then we get Werewolves etc.
But i take this Topic is regarding the Urns on LV-223 that have some strain of DNA related to the Xenomorph?
So i again assume that what ever this substance touches or what ever consumed it would have its DNA Code Re-written and have passed onto it Xeno DNA while at the same time Evolve its best traits.. So a Bat for example would have improved Eco Location Abilities, A Spider would have stronger Webs... maybe Webs that can burn like Acid.
Now as far as infection i think it depends on the amount of the Substance the Organism is in contact with.
As far as Male vs Female... who knows.... the Xeno may be Asexual and have no real Sex they may have Queens and means to Produce Queens... but we cant say if they need Sexual Reproduction.
so its hard to say what a Male Human vs Female would be like... but we can assume maybe a Female as the Goo seems to Evolve Traits of the Organism infected would evolve the reproduction of the Organism that required no mate..... yes.
I would even imagine something like Sil from Species could be a result.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Here is a thing i noticed with Prometheus... a contradiction... the Eye Worm... what the hell was that all about?
We could assume its some of Holoways AWOL Sperm... but how does one become AWOL?
But then it got me thinking and the Sources comments also helped solidify this theory...
When David has the Goo on his finger, its like a slimy substance and you can make out movement inside of it as if its ALIVE.... The source said it was a PARASITE
What if instead of Spaights Nano Scarabs we have Nano Worms... but how does that explain the Goo... well the stuff in the ampoule was slightly different to the stuff that leaked out of the Urns its as if something else mixed with this substance to produce the Black Goo.
If we go back to Holoways finger... what if it contained thousands of Nano Worm like Tadpoles.... what else is like Tadpoles... Sperm... what does a collection of thousands of Sperm look like... a Goo...
So what if the Nano Worms... was what infected Shaws Eggs...?
i find this interesting unused concept prop for Fifield just before he started to succumb to the Black Goo
Again this would have been a massive Clue...
But even if we ignore this and assume it was Black Goo mutated Sperm..... i think the end result its the same... it infected one of Shaws Eggs.
We see the Goo infects Cells and it then Evolves them and makes a Hybrid.... Well Eggs are just another Cell.
These Cells are a Blank Canvas if Life that Evolve into Embryo and the Stage 1 Embryo of nearly every creature on Earth is very similar....
Hense less DNA to Evolve for the Black Goo/Nano Worms and this is why we have the Trilobite that was the closest to the Xeno DNA... it was a Hybrid Human/Xeno Face Huger and this is why the Deacon had a Placenta, was fully formed and had Human Fingers and Toes and Enamel Teeth.
And so i think the Goo infection a female could for certain Produce from her Eggs a Hybrid Face Huger.
When a Human usually has a Egg Fertilized she can not produce more Fertilized Eggs until she has given birth, this is why when Pregnant they cant be made Pregnant again until after birth... Maybe this is a barrier the Xeno infected Shaws Egg had..
This would not stop her being used to carry a Trilobite and have a C-Section, then for her to be stitched up rested for few days and endure the process again.
Maybe a fully infected Shaws DNA like Fifield, could find another way to procreate multiple off spring who knows?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"Must be something we haven't seen yet.."__Bishop
The sacrificial cup was removed the goo made black rather than green and Fifield became a Zombie instead of taking on the more overt Zeno head.
Were these random textural choices or had plot point significance.
When the Engineer takes the sacrificial offering he breaks down in seconds whereas our two guys are still alive after several hours.
Face Hugger infestation inside a human produces a Bio Mechanical A L I E N.
Trilobite infestation inside an Engineer produces a Deacon.
Engineer and Mankind share the same DNA.
So for me the missing link is the start point.
We need something to take us from Goo to Egg which contains a Face hugger which will produce a Bio Mechanical creature.
An event occurs, maybe its this
Goo > Transformed Big Idea David > Transformed technically alive Shaw as female - produces Egg. This is dramatically more interesting than Shaw becomes Egg. She maybe able to produce multiple Eggs so she is hooked up to Giger technology.
OK so we need to give these babies a home > Covenant arrives.
Shaw in some inconceivable way is still Shaw and is available for Protagonist Antagonist Redemption curve.
David is now growing into something more human so he is available for P. A. R.
Well, as far as how do we get to a big chap, I think we need David for that. We have seen various reactions to both male and female from the black goo, but not the bio-mechanical aspect. I think (or hope) that is what A:C will show us.
Since we are related to engineers, if same material is in sacrificial cup, then it would be logical to assume a very similar reaction would happen. We could then
"seed" a planet with new life, hopefully one with a good nature (or at least free will) versus a purely evil one.
Is it a matter of the dose quantity? Do you need the amount in the cup, versus the drop administered by David? That could explain why the engineers immediately re-composed, versus the prolonged reactions in Fifield and Holloway. Also Mr T in Shaw, although that is another kettle of fish.
Or is the black goo in the urns weaponized by the "warring" or fallen faction, and already has the "bad seed" in it. This would account for why the reactions are evil. I think this is an important point to consider. I don't think the (good) engineers are seeding planets with this Alien strain; it is something more virtuous as a species. So obviously the process was perverted, as MJ's excellent synopsis described.
But what about Milburn? Something burst from his mouth. Did the "cobra" not have enough time, or is not capable of morphing? It just seems to have killed his host. Is that just a pure bio weapon designed to kill (and eat?), rather than re-produce?
Drinking the sacrificial goo was the noble way of re-composing into different life forms. Ingesting the black goo is quite the opposite, bringing out the worst. The "fire" of life, with both good and evil aspects.
Asexual reproduction from an infected female human would be cool. That would be something we've never seen before and could be quite sexually disturbing. Considering the black goo made Shaw pregnant when she was barren would help support the restructuring of asexual capabilities.
Dont mean to go off Topic...
But yes we have to ask why was the Xeno Bio-Mechanical.... but we have to remember that the strain we saw in Prometheus was maybe from the Deacon on the Mural... and so its DNA is not pure 100% Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph... Shaws Deacon was less Mechanical because again it was a Hybrid of Human and maybe Mural Deacon DNA.
Ridley had posed the Question about the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph and why and the movie would attempt to show us.....
I thought before Prometheus that David would use Engineer Tech and the Big Things have Small Beginnings was a way for him to evolve himself to become more than Synthetic... like a Pinocchio wanting to become a real boy.
His Ultimate price for this, was he becomes infected by the Trilobite that is removed from Shaw and this is where the Xeno gets its Bio-Mechanics from...
This theory was wrong however lol
Also this theory would make Prometheus a direct prequel in a way... and i was always under the impression that the Derelict was there for thousands of years.
They can do a idea like above, especially if the David 8 doppelganger is a Synthetic Construct like Elden from Fire and Stone...
Again it would mean the Xenomorph Origin is from a time post 2093 and so say 28+ or 18+ (event in Covenant) years prior to Alien, which i think goes against how long the Derelict seemed to have been there.
Ridley did say a number of times the Derelict was there for thousands of years and he also said after Prometheus that the Derelict had been there within a few hundred years of the outbreak on LV-223 that led to all those dead Engineers.
One thing we seem to forget....
Engineers have Bio-Technology, the Juggernaughts, their Suits, they all have a mild Giger look to it, maybe some of it is less Organic than Gigers work... and some of it less Mechanical (Engineer under Pressure Suits).
But the Engineers Bio-Tech Predated the Prometheus Mission... maybe Alien Covenant can give clues to when and where and how these Engineer obtained Bio-Mechanics from and what connection it had with the Engineers.
As the Sacrificial and Elders Scene seemed to lack that Bio-Mechanical Tech... the Teardrop ship likewise.
So maybe the Xenomorph is not created from a event in Alien Covenants current timeline... 2104 etc
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
We dont clearly know the extent of the Xeno strain procreation.... we dont know if the Xeno is something that came from the Goo or the Goo predates it.
The Xenomorph seemed to have a purpose of Procreate its own kind, regardless of the Egg Morph or Queen aspect.
But we have to wander as the Xeno in Alien could Egg Morph to Procreate and the Queen maybe could produce Eggs Asexually that if either had its DNA broke down and passed onto another life form to make a Hybrid would those methods of re-production be passed on or not?
If the Goo (Sacrificial) breaks down DNA but then produces a new Substance that passes the Sacrificed Organisms best Traits, while Evolving the infected Organisms best Traits then yes there is a chance that the Xenos Procreation Techniques could be passed on.
This assumes Xeno DNA is within the Urns.... and that the Urns do not produce the Xenos.. but even if thats not the case.. if Xenos come from something else, it would have had to had been passed on its Procreation traits from something else.
Question is without the target Organism being able to Procreate.... can the Urn DNA evolve traits to allow procreation.... i.e could a Male be infected to be a Egg Layer? Of does the Organism already have to have the ability to produce Eggs/Offspring and the Urns DNA just negates the need for Fertilization?
Maybe a Female Organism is needed to produce a Organism with ability to Lay Eggs or give birth to offspring?
What of a Male? do they just become killing Machines, or could they manipulate DNA via a Egg Morph?
I would also like to bring the Hammerpedes into the Equation... if we assume those Worms are similar to Earth Worms... yes they can re-grow damaged cells.... this is evolved to a whole new level via the Black Goo.
But if they are like Worms, then Worms Produce Asexually to a degree... a Worm is Hermaphrodite it has Eggs and Sperm, but they can no fertilize themselves.
They need another Worm and the Two Mate and both make each other Pregnant well Fertilize each others Eggs.
We see Two Hammerpedes... maybe they have Mated and Milburn was a place to then deposit Eggs like how many insects which include Flies would lay there Eggs on a Dead Carcass
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I've been following and contributing to quite a few discussions on this website, and what strikes me now, is that most of the reasoning I have seen is coming from a preconceived notion that the things we have seen in Prometheus, actually tried to explain how the Morb/Xeno came into existence in the first place.
People are absolutely certain that Prometheus and these new upcoming movies will explain the nature of the Alien organism, with the Deacon being this sort of "Proto" morb creature.
What if, none of that is actually the case, and things are completely different.
What if the Morb creature is an already preexisting creature, or even civilization that the Engineers just happened upon or were at war with at a certain point within their history.
There is evidence for this in Prometheus, since the Mural actually shows the egg like cocoon we all know.
I've been thinking about this for quite some time now, and now I'd like to know what you guys think ?
Lets reason and theorize with information we've actually seen for ourselves, and leave out speculation from either movie characters in the movie, or the movie creators trying to fire up a discussion not e
What if the Morb is indeed an already existing creature that the Engineers had to deal with in some kind of way. Perhaps the creature belongs to a civilization that the Engineers are/were at war with.
Perhaps the nature of the Morb/Engineer relationship is even more frightening but at this time simply unknown to us as an audience.
What if the LV-223 installation was actually some sort of research base in which the Engineers were researching the morb biology and tried to create some kind of super being ?
There is the Deacon statue (Which many people mix up with the actual Morb for some reason, although it's clearly something different) within the ampule room which seems to have great significance and it only reinforces my theory since it is featured as being a centerpiece in the room.
It is shown as this sort of pinnacle, this thing that happens when all things come together.
During the start of Prometheus we see the engineer sacrificing himself by drinking some kind of ooze, which then breaks down to engineer to pure genetic material.
What if the ooze in the ampoules are actually broken down Morb creatures ? Morb DNA.... We already know that this creature is a pure survivor, which can adept to almost every circumstance you throw at it. We also know that the creature needs to use other organisms as hosts to complete it's parasitic life cycle. Its very genes are built to latch onto something and alter it in such a way that the the morb parts actually prevail, completely destroying the other genetic material present. In a way this Morb DNA works exactly like a virus does in that it latches onto existing genetic material, and it alters it completely. Only this time the immune system never has a chance to go against it, and once again the creature proves to be the ultimate survivor.
Then there is the derelict on LV-426. To me this seems to be a supply ship which might have been on it's way to LV-223 with a fresh batch of Morb eggs. Remember how these eggs were neatly arranged in silos and had this sort of containment field ? I think this "Spacejockey" was perhaps due to drop this load on LV-223. Fresh eggs with which the engineers could do more experiments.
@Charza, you're absolutely right! I can't remember which thread it's in, but a few of us got to thinking that the Black Goo was (in one form or another) an attempt at recreating or imitating the pre-existence of the Xenomorph/Morb. The mural, with the Deacon/Xeno like hieroglyph, along with the shrine-like crystal all suggest the creature is the blueprint and the inspiration behind what the Engineers were cooking up on LV-223. Echoing man's attempt at creating life by use of robotics.
These threads have a habit of coming down to two central issues :-
1) Is the sacrificial goo the same goo that we see in the headroom.
2) What is the relationship between the life cycle from A L I E N and the life cycles in the mural and the one we have seen in P R O M E T H E U S.
@Charza. it is entirely conceivable that the Zenomorph is a species the Engineers/Jockeys came across and that LV223 is a research establishment built to deal with this threat. That could be the motivation for creating the Deacon there own H Bomb as it were.
My overriding views are based on one fact, and one fact alone. The notion of Paradise Lost.
The Engineers have rebelled, in what way we are not entirely clear, but certainly what they did on LV223 did them no good at all and all but one perished. We also know the Covenant arrives on Paradise on which David is the sole inhabitant which will provide the answers to why Paradise Lost.
Here are some sub sections.
Black Goo>Human Male> Infects Human Female> produces Miss T who overcomes an Engineer and leads to >Deacon.
So either the Black Goo in the headroom has been synthesised to include the sacrificial deacon which makes it a Zeno Mutagen (Lindelof).
The mere ingesting of this substance in an unplanned event leads to punishment for the recipient (the Promethean revenge of Zeus) and when it is a planned event the life cycle on the mural it represents a fall (Disobedience, and the loss thereupon of Paradise wherein he (Engineers) was plac't): which the creators move against by biblical levels of retribution akin to Sodom and Gomorrah.
Finally whilst the Zeno may be a pre existing species here is what the director said
"We’re getting closer and closer to the creation of the beasts—how and why they were created—and the first Alien film that I made over thirty years ago."
What are Facehuggers disseminating? A zygote? Black goo?
Maybe facehuggers have a little pocket of black goo...it samples the host DNA and combines it with goo and produces a little monster zygote?
@ M Z
In the creature picture of the Face Hugger it shows a tube with an Egg in it.
Clearly Black Goo wrapped around Male Sperm fertilises Female Sperm to generate a TRILOBITE and begin the Zeno cycle. But this was an experiment which needs perfecting.
David may have discovered/rediscovered a stand alone way to mix Black Goo with Human DNA. Unlike a knowing sacrifice it is effectively a rape. The Face hugger lays the egg in the human body which interacts with human DNA male or female and several hours later the a sexual bio mechanical chap makes an appearance. Interesting how the Hugger has a tail which not only has a practical use but sets up the tail of the A L I E N.
If it requires a human in the food chain to create a trilobite presumably a human is required to produce an Egg and accompanying hugger.
@Diz I think you sum up the chain of events perfectly with the dilemma which is that either :-
1) The Black Goo has been contaminated in the LV223 experiments which had uncontrollable catastrophic effects.
2) The Black Goo is the fire of life which if it is misused (stolen) has Promethean type consequences for the perpetrator (the mural and fresco implications ) and if it is used in an unauthorised way (the temptation of eve) generates a loss of innocence and in this mythos punishment and retribution.
Probably why I am coming down on 2 is because C O V E N A N T (and again the breaking thereof) will move away from the speculative permission of Lindelof to some hard answers which need to be communicated forcefully and directly to a large audience so some of its tenants need to be explained very simply and I believe 2 (this is the fire it was stolen and these are the consequences) is simpler than the more complicated LV223 experiments went wrong. Particularly when the real message of the movie is why the zeno and how bio mechanical thats where the complex ingenuity maybe directed. The black goo in a sense is back story.
For me seeing the vials/bagdad batteries, vases (ha ha) in the room with Ridley made me think, there back again and we do not want to rely on the previous film to explain them, or repeat the contamination argument, if anything through David we will get the explanation of the events that are coming and for those that are interested clarity as to what the f..k was going on in P R O M E T H E U S. Michael has said this film moves at a rapid pace within a big picture whats worse than to little exposition is overcomplicated exposition for the wider audience. So applying the KISS principle to the various appearances of the canisters and its contents would fit that.
"1) Is the sacrificial goo the same goo that we see in the headroom. "
Considering the stuff in the prologue looks and acts differently, imma go with "no".
I think that it was very disappointing that they didn’t use the Xenomorph Fifield but went with the zombie instead. The Zombie was very bad and (more importantly) made less sense than the other version. When I see the Xeno version and look at the Zombie I just shake my head in disappointment because that would have made the movie a little better.
New monsters sure but no Fifield zombies please because it is not good. I like zombie movies but I don’t think that an Alien prequel is a place for them and they shouldn’t be in AC either.
The boob monster looks sort of creepy like something that could attack you without hesitation and tear you into pieces, sorry but I am not sure what to call it. I think that it would make sense if each version would be sort of different compared to the rest but that they should also have a lot in common because we all have individual ways of how we look but we also have similarities but it shouldn’t be too close to humans so to speak.
What if there are different versions of the goo? I am not sure how this would work, it is just an idea that I have.
The eye worm is a thing that didn’t make sense to me. It was like they had an idea about it but they didn’t develop it very much but put it in the movie and the result of that scene was like “Uh? OK? What’s the point?” Maybe that was another idea that they didn’t think through very well but I think that it was potentially creepy – the idea of a parasite that consumes your body from within, eww.
@ SM if you look at the very first split second opening of of the sacrificial cup it has exactly the same undulating black glutinous look of the sweating ampule. It then seems to reduce and coagulate whereas the vases fluid begins to leak.
Its interesting that the headroom starts sweating as soon as David opens the door. The alter sweats, the murals decompose the storm starts up and yet for 2,000 the head is "In a state of perfect preservation". Is it possible that the opening of the door and humankind presence breaking down of the preserved atmosphere is a lock down procedure to prevent the Black Goo being used.
David quick as a flash sprays the Ampule in a freezing agent and keeps it refrigerated before opening it.
Put simply the goo reaction follows all the other elements changing in the room.
As to differences of outcomes. The acolyte ingests a perfectly judged prescribed amount of the Goo. Everyone knows exactly what is needed to make this sacrifice happen.
David gives Charlie a minuscule amount assuming he will make love to Elizabeth and see what transpires. Its a modest hit to his system.
Fifield on the other hand is a re emergent mutation who given a different decision would have looked half way Zeno over the same period. He has clearly "died" and been re organised he would not have survived the mask implosion. Incidentally if my theory that mankind's direct involvement triggered the Zeno strain is correct it was a mistake to make him into an un-relatable mutant.
Others may know more but what I understand is that in the more Zeno orientated Spaihts script Fifield was displaying classic Zeno physical characteristics and this was changed not at a story telling level but strategically to make the films relationship with A L I E N less certain.
Indeed now we are backing into I am sure Ridley would look at some of the Prometheus decisions and offer more tie ins such as Black Goo > Humankind > Zeno.
Is the Black Goo the same but is capable of other outcomes ?
Part of my process of considering this is connected to a simpler Paradise Lost narrative and the inspiration came from Rider Haggard's beautiful creation Ayesha.
This being closely connected to the Egyptian God hierarchy gained her immorality from stepping into the Fire. However 2,000 years later she steps into the same Fire and her mortality catch's up with her as punishment for her bending the rules and slaying her lovers other lover in antiquity. (Sound familiar close to the gods/involved with human kind/breaks the rules/appalling retribution).
"Incidentally if my theory that mankind's direct involvement triggered the Zeno strain is correct it was a mistake to make him into an un-relatable mutant."
I think that was one of the bad things about this movie. They could have used the more Xeno like version and it would have made so much more sense (the Alien connection would have been clearer) and also it looks way better than the Zombie version. My guess is that they thought that it would be more of an alien prequel in the beginning but then for some reason they changed their minds and one of the results was the Zombie. While Zombie movies are fine (many of them) having the Fifield version that we were given didn't make sense which is one of the things that I don't like in this movie.
A lot of time when I see the Zombie in Prometheus I just think "well that was a mistake". Maybe they will use something that is close to the Fifield Xeno in AC, we'll see. Perhaps something could happen to one of the Covenant crew members that would turn him or her into something similar to the Fifield Xeno?
By saying something similar to the Fifield Xeno I mean something that is very angry, fast, and extremely deadly and that is closer to the Xeno.
I think there a number of ways they could go from Mankind to Zeno in C O V E N A N T but if this a suspenseful fast paced movie it needs to be very clear story telling. If we are having the hugger back and the big guy and a new event then two strands of evolution revealing Shaw and Davids input is plenty.
Some interesting things and yes this has been discussed before and we really dont know what the MORB Origins where... they was vague in Prometheus. It left many possible outcomes and i think Alien Covenant will attempt to draw us down a path that would help us to narrow down the Origin.... While the Engineers may have created the Xeno or a Strain that leads to the Xeno... we still dont know the Original Organisms that the Xeno/Deacon and Black Goo in Urns DNA all trace their Origins through ORIGIN
The Starting Point.... do we have
1) A Xenomorph as the starting point, or a related Organism that the Xenomorph is a Evolution of.
2) Is the Xenomorph or the Original DNA something created? or is it from some Natural Organism the Engineers found... and experimented on?
3)Something the Engineers were tasked with Pro-creating i.e was the Original Ancestor to the Xenomorph something the Engineers where tasked with being used as Sacrificial Hosts (Alien Mural that was unused could fit with this).
4) Could some related Organism had created and used the Engineers for this purpose... is the Organism above the Engineers related to the Xenomorph DNA as we are to Engineers... (this fits in with Star Beast).
5) Or is it simply a mistake, a using of the Sacrificial Goo lead to something not expected, something had gotten infected that was not intended and the result was the Origins that lead to the Xeno strain.
6) Was the strain, or organism created for the sole purpose of a Bio-Weapon, but then experimented on... or was it used latter as a Weapon?
These are all possible.... as it is we cant be sure which one it is... they can all fit in with it...
We could have it that for some reason the Hierarchy produce the Xeno or Related Organism and Engineers are required for Sacrifices, but they rebelled and Mankind was created or the Engineers created them to take their place as Sacrifices... (Pretty similar to the Annunaki and Igigi story only instead of being used to mine for Gold, the Agenda is used for Sacrifice).
The above maybe the Hierarchy are Genetically related to the Organism... i.e like Star Beast
Or could the Organism Ancestor to the Xeno had been used as Punishment or a result of Punishment?
Hopefully Alien Covenant will help to narrow it down.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Sometimes the simple answers are the best however... and there has been more clarity from Ridley and also the name of the movie Prometheus and its sequels planned Paradise Lost are not to be taken as namesakes.
This could be the CLUE in our Faces..
Lets look at Ridleys comments regarding the Xenomorph.... and sorry this has gone off Topic from what the Goo does to Male and Females.
*The Xenomorph, or at very least a related strain of DNA is used as a Bio-Weapon, however its purpose is also to create from destruction...
*The Engineers (on there own or by order of the Hierarchy) created the Xenomorph.... or at very least the Evil Biology that gave rose to the Xenomorph
*The Experiments on LV-223 are very related to the Process that could eventually lead to the Xenomorph.
*The Biology that leads to the Xenomorph may not have been Bio-Mechanical as it was in Alien, the Origins may have been more Organic but something that made the 1979 Alien Bio-Mechanical and we could be finding out what.
*The Derelict and Juggernauts are used to carry Experiments and biology that is the purpose of destruction or replacement.
We dont know the reason for it, Prometheus hinted that it was intended to destroy or replace us which comes with a Question Why, and why was we created in the first place..... i think Alien Covenant would attempt to answer this... but maybe Prometheus gave clues but maybe again they are so ambiguous that we cant work out if they are coincidence, or clues or red herrings.
The Mural and Frescos again never really explained... they only show us..
*There is a Genetic Connection between the Deacon Mural, the Fresco Creatures and the Xenomorph DNA.
*The Organism or strain of DNA is at very least praised by those Engineers on LV-223 but we cant figure out exactly why as its left ambiguous... but i dont think they worship it because its above them or God.
In a nutshell is about a Faction of Godlike beings Rebelling against there fellow kind and creators... in which Prometheus had sided against his creators, and then he also sided with his brothers creations... where ever there was rebellion via Father/Son Creator/Creation... he had always taken the side of the Creation.
He played a role in the creation of Mankind, and he had Stolen Fire of the Gods, he had taught Mankind and helped Mankind to Evolve to levels that the Gods had forbidden.
For this he was Punished..... a Eagle was sent down to Eat his Liver and it would re-grow and he would have to endure this Punishment over and over (but he was freed from it one day).
Paradise Lost Mythos....
Shows us again a sub-creation no longer seeing the reason to serve their God, a Rebellion against their creator of which the Rebellious Lucifer was punished and banished from Gods Kingdom.
God created Man, in the hope that this New Creation would serve God, faithfully without Question...
Lucifer once the symbol of Gods Perfection is replaced by Adam, Jealous he intends to Corrupt Mankind, by giving us Forbidden Knowledge... (Freewill) he (Satan) attempted to destroy the Will of Man, so that Man could Question God and the devotion to God... this worked as Man started to be loyal to Woman and not God.
Man was punished and thrown out of the Kingdom of God, and Man was told that at latter times Mankind would face a lot of Turmoil and Punishment for its Rebellion and Sin against God.
Lucifer's Punishment was that he was to give birth to Sin his daughter a Mutant Serpent/Humanoid who is in perpetual labor with horrid monsters.
A number of the Angels who sided with Satan where Punished and mutated into Serpents.
I think we cant not rule out these when we are trying to work out what is going on.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
And so i think that the Fresco shows Prometheus Element, that was Punished by the Hierarchy and this Punishment had led to something that was the Origins to what became the Xenomorph.
This Punishment of the Rebellious Engineers, did not punish them all and eventually the Engineers came to Worship this Punishment as its results lead to something else.... which they they experimented on until they ended up with the Deacon... and they then decided to use this Punishment on them as a means to Punish their creators.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Prometheus myth was played out in the movie its there for all to see. We just do not know precisely how it happened e.g. how did the Black Goo become bad news.
The Paradise Lost Myth and the breaking of the Covenant will be explained in the movie. We just do not precisely what the fall was and how retribution was applied and how David will use that situation. Hopefully the movie will explain it all.
Your right you can over think things or not separate out the confusing detail from the strategic narrative. We need more clarity in A. C. then we can rest our minds.
Michelle J: I agree about clear story telling if the movie is fast paced. To me pacing is maybe third or fourth, having good characters and a good story are the most important things.
Yes they should explain some things but on the other hand it doesn’t have to be equal to explaining something to a three year old where you have to be extremely clear and cover point 1-10 in a ten piece story but rather explain point 1-3 very clear 7-9 a bit more vague while not explaining 4,5,6, and 10 because you can figure that out by having a very good background from the parts that you have very good explanations to but that is what I think that they failed with in Prometheus.
Everything wasn’t bad about Prometheus really but it could have been so much better. These are things that you can fill in about the Xeno let’s say if you really try but some things should stay ambiguous in order for it to stay interesting, Alien managed to do this but then it has good characters which Prometheus mostly hadn’t.
About David’s and Shaw’s input I am very interested in what role David has in it all. I am less interested in Shaw but maybe they have done her into a better character this time (which really shouldn’t be a very complicated thing to do, LOL).
Indeed we really dont know what the exact connection is apart from Rebellion seems a common theme, and knowledge that was not intended to be used or for the eyes of the lower chain in the Hierarchy this is a common theme.
Prometheus (Higher caste of Gods) helped and sided against his fellow higher caste, by siding with Zeus a lower cast off spring of the 12 Titans.... he then also betray Zeus in favor of the next lower caste to the Olympians... The Tier as in Titans ==>Olympians ==> Humans.
Where perhaps stolen knowledge and tools had been used against the will of the Hierarchy.
Paradise Lost (Lucifer) again a lower cast of Gods (Angels) under God, and Lucifer Rebelled and lead a 3rd of Angels to follow him and Rebel against God... Latter Mankind was created and Satan then also interfered in a way that Mankind had now also Sinned against God.
And so Prometheus and Lucifer are kind of connected... so can Enki in the Sumerian Mythos.
And so there is a pattern, and i would not be surprised if this pattern is loosely followed..... but we dont have to literally consider them.... i.e God as in One God... instead he could represent a Hierarchy of Gods. and like wise Prometheus... he does not have to represent One Titan... but could represent a faction ==> Fallen Angels.
I would not be surprised if such things are connected.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
A interesting thing to me is when the Source claims that without Sin as in context of Paradise Lost there would be no Xenomorph.... and they also said that the Punishment of certain Fallen Angels to become Serpents in Paradise Lost should play out as freedom from bondage in relation to Prometheus 2
They also hinted that indeed Prometheus Punishment is very connected.
And so maybe they mean Sin as in the daughter born from Satans Head, who Guards the Gates of Hell as is cursed with constantly being Pregnant with Hounds of Hell who cause her Entrails to be torn over and over... she gives birth to Hounds of Hell who are part serpent and who Guard the Gates of Hell.
She could be connected in context with Greek Mythos to Echidna and so the Greek Echidna and Paradise Lost Sin could be inter changeable
And maybe its via that where we get our ANSWERS?
If we assume Prometheus/Satan are the same in context to the Plot.... then yes Sin/Echidna could also be the same... and her offspring are the Hounds of Hell in both cases.
And so if the Engineer in the Fresco is Prometheus who is punished and gives birth to something from this punishment and this Organism is then the Mother to the Xeno Origins... maybe this could tie in the Fresco?
Maybe the Eagle is the Daughter? as with Satan Sin was born as Punishment for Satans Sins...
Just a thought and its what the Sources comments seem to be steering me towards.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
How do we get from the beginning of the movie to LV223.
Breaking of Bondage
The Engineers rebelled against their role as sacrificial victims and sought to replace themselves (The Sumarian Legend).
The creating of the life cyle was meant to free them from bondage. Egg>Facehugger>Engineer>New Sacrificial Outcome.
The experiments are shown in the fresco (one version) and the mural (another version) and thats not to deny the connections you made. However what they created, after attempting to refine their experiments, in error was the Deacon, whose sacrifice created the Black Goo and lead directly to the retribution on the LV223 population. In this outcome the Black Goo is now a mutagen and tainted by the mistake and echoes the Paradise Lost notion. Turning the Engineer hosts into Deacons.
The fall was deepened and made more terrible by the vain glorious decision to re order their achievements (in order to create you must destroy) and head off to earth, mercifully self inflicted retribution destroyed that notion. Play with fire and you get your fingers burnt.
Echidna could be the role model for Shaw and the sin is to corrupt her capacity for reproduction so she delivers the Eggs which with David's input leads to the Bio Mechanical Outcome.
We need to think that a lot of the ideas of Prometheus Pandemonium have survived but in a more connected fashion so the connection with the over arching themes are there but in a more personal and connected Loganised way, to leave Shaw out of the big event seems unlikely (she is technically alive). As you may recall I am very big on the ten years being significant in giving the timeline to achieve this outcome.
The big one for me is when did Paradise Fall, before or after Davids arrival. Given LV223 happened 2000 years ago I am expecting him to stumble on a dead world which will yield up its secrets to him so he has the tools and knowledge of how to deal with the evolving creature and create a new event. (What if David comes across a deacon which has survived the holocaust of the temple scene (Engineer>Deacon echoing P L)
For a fast paced movie to pick up big ideas as it goes along does not need over complicated side stories just well executed exposition and Ridders superb visual flashes akin to the beginning of Prom.
I think a good deal of where the source is pointing you is where we are going and indeed where we have gone. Its fun to speculate (The Zeno is the God head or another race the Engineers were fighting ) but The Engineers stole the fire and fell. The result was there own destruction and the creation of the Zeno strain which is evolving. Why did they fall to release themselves from Bondage how did the fall manifest itself, sub creation and then decision to re order (because you can).
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