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LV223 verse choice and its implications

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Vickie B

Jul-21-2016 12:17 AM

For those unfamiliar with the verse Leviticus 22:3 :

  Say to them "For the generations to come, if any of your descendants is ceremonially unclean and yet comes near the sacred offerings that the Isrealites consecrate to the Lord, that person must be cut off from my presence. I am the Lord."

I know how this verse applies within the Bible, but how might it apply to the Prometheus/Covenant world? I will posit my thoughts and hope to read thoughts of others. I also reserve the right to go in different directions...lol.

Firstly, I want to share what I believe to be the meaning of "ceremonially unclean". Because these Engineers are shown to be masters of manipulating DNA, I believe that "ceremonially unclean" is what you become when your DNA has been modified. When you have been mutated in some way.

Secondly, I would like to discuss the "sacred offerings". But before I can do that, I must tell you that I believe there may be 2 kinds of Engineers. The Engineers we see at the begining of the film look different than the Engineers we see near the end. Their skin is different. Why? I'll come back to this. There also seems to be aged Engineers here at the beginning (shown during a deleted scene) suggesting that they die and that they might also appear differently to one another much like we do, unless you are an identical twin. The Engineers we see near the end look identical to one another. The ships are different, too.

We like to associate the word 'sacred' with 'good', but that's not necessarily the case. 'Sacred' could simply mean 'dedicated to a religious purpose and therefore deserving of respect'. Not all religions are 'good'.

I believe that a "sacred offering" is shown to us at the beginning of the film in the form of an Engineer. He sacrifices, offers, himself in order to bring about intelligent life. Is he a good guy? It would appear so, but looks can be deceiving. They wear clothes. Why? I'll come back to this as well.

Let's skip to the temple, which some call the "head room". Here we see murals and such, as well as urns filled with fluid. This place is definitely a sacred place. Each urn, to me, is a sort of coffin or sarcophagus and it would explain Halloway's "tomb" comment. If we take what we see as a 'sacred offering' at the beginning of the film and apply it here, then what we can conclude here is that inside each of these urns is an Engineer who has consumed the catalyst which breaks them down. We are looking at many, many 'sacred offerings'. 

Now to betrack to my 'why'. Recall the story of Adam and Eve. Eve was created from the rib of Adam. (In the genetic sense, a rib bone is a very good candidate of a bone you can remove without hindering the donor in some way. Bone marrow is an excellent source of DNA.) One day Eve broke the rules and ate fruit from the forbidden Tree. They are cast out from the Garden of Eden. They are now sinners. Their lives will be toilsome...they will have to work hard for their needs. They also realize they are naked and, out of shame, create clothing to wear. They are not cut off from God, though. They just have to make offerings to him now to be redeemed.

So my thought is this: I think that it may be very possible that the Engineers we see wearing clothing at the beginning of the film are 'sinners'. They cannot easily make 'sacred offerings' by delivering and emptying urns. They must now perform this on location. And like childbirth will be very painful for the sinner Eve, performing the 'sacred offering' ceremony, which will eventually produce 'descendants', will be painful for the Engineer. They have been 'cast out' and now age...and die. They age because they are 'unclean'. Becoming unclean is quite possibly their sin. Mutating themselves. But it is also possible that aging, then dying, is a form of punishment for their sin. Is the ceremony we see at the beginning of the film an offering to gain redemption? 

I'm thinking that we are descendants of this 'sinner' race. We are considered 'unclean' because our makers, whose DNA we share, are 'unclean'. It is because we register as 'unclean' inside the temple that changes begin to occur there. By being in that room, we are breaking a covenant much like the Leviticus verse. The temple is able to recognize that we are inside because we had taken our helmets off. Going into that room in full suit is how the sinner race got in and out. It is this race we see running towards the temple during the holographic playback. It is their bodies we see piled up. 

These are my thoughts...and it makes me wonder if there are two home bases to go with the two races of Engineer. Which race's home base did Shaw and David go to?

31 Responses to LV223 verse choice and its implications

Michelle Johnston

Jul-21-2016 7:46 AM

"Here is Leviticus 22:1-3 from the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV). 22:1 The LORD God said to Moses, 2 “Tell Aaron and his sons: The gifts that the Israelites bring to me become holy. They belong to me, so you priests must show respect for these things. If you don’t, you will show that you don’t respect my holy name. I am the LORD. [i]3 If any one of your descendants touches these things, that person will become unclean. That person must be separated from me. The Israelites gave these things to me. I am the LORD.[/i] Aaron was Moses' right hand man and he and his son's were God's first priests ministering to the Israelites, God's chosen people. I think that Engineers were Gods priest's to mankind. Mankind was created in God's image not the image of the Engineers........the Engineers were to minister and serve mankind however over time a faction of Engineers became resentful and developed a hatred of mankind and as verse 3 says "they became unclean and were separated" on LV223. The analogy is that they are the fallen angels".

This is an extract from a 2012 thread which deals with the LV223 potential applicability.

I do not agree that the Engineers are serving mankind I think they are serving their hierarchy in nurturing mankind. Their hierarchy gave instructions as to how they should fulfil that nurture. However the Engineers on LV 223 having broken their bondage and stolen the fire began their own experiments which included mankind and which were considered unclean and they were punished in three ways.

1) They suffered individually by subjugating themselves to the Life cycle to sub create. Not in a swift sacrifice but an appalling hosting and subsequent destruction.

2) They suffered from the effects of the mutagen which they had created and turned upon them. This is at a philosophic level is the heirarchy's punishment.

3) They suffered extinction on their home world. They were judged to be unclean how their fall spread from LV223 to Paradise will emerge in Covenant.

So I agree with you LV 223 is not a coincidental choice of name it is a signpost. The urns we know contain the mutagen/biological warfare. It is both the original catalyser and something which has been introduced in an act of uncleanliness.

Nice thoughtful post overlapping with some of my own enquires thank you.   

 

Vickie B

Jul-21-2016 12:10 PM

However the Engineers on LV 223 having broken their bondage and stolen the fire began their own experiments which included mankind and which were considered unclean and they were punished in three ways.

This was my view on things until I did some reading in forums and in articles yesterday. I then began to wonder if the Engineers we see at the beginning of Prometheus were rule-breakers, and 'unclean' who were trying to get back into the graces of their maker by making sacrifices. Or that we are witnessing them using  'fire' they stole from the 'clean'? A serious act of rule-breaking that resulted in the making of us? And I began to wonder if the temple contains items from both races (which would explain the two who are given respect there...the Engineers and the Aliens). One of which was not allowed in because they were "unclean". To put this into perspective, perhaps the suited-up Engineers we see running to the temple (via the hologram) were the 'unclean' race. The sound we hear at the beginning of this hologram is an alarm sounding off. An alert to intruders. We watch these intruders race to the temple to steal the 'fire'. They used this stolen 'fire' to seed planets. Perhaps they felt compelled to do this because their planet died. The planet Shaw and David arrive on.

***

Going OT yet again...lol. I have also considered that the alien on the huge tablet we see inside the temple is the superior race to the Engineers...their 'diety', so to speak. This tablet not only shows the 'diety', but the purpose of the Engineers. The Engineers were created by the Alien race through cloning. So that they have an endless supply. It explains why all of the Engineers look alike. As shown in the tablet, the sole purpose of the Engineer is to help the Alien race procreate. They are simply a step in the process. A very necessary step.

Like David speaks of freedom, a group of the Engineers begin to wish to be free of this bondage and secretly perform experiments as a way of breaking free. Perhaps they begin the experiments to come up with a way to 'kill their parents'. To create a being in the Alien likeness which is superior to the Alien race...and ferocious, too.The temple we see is a temple of the Alien race which contains the 'head' statue of an Engineer. Designating which species is inside the urns. It could be quite possible that other life forms are used by the Alien race for the same purpose as the Engineer. A step in their procreation.

Perhaps this rogue race of Engineer created us. These are the Engineers we see at the beginning of the film. And perhaps the Engineers we see near the end of the film, hellbent on destroying us, are the Engineers who are still loyal to their 'diety'.

Anyway, fun stuff to think about. A year is too long to wait for this film...lol. I cannot wait to get some answers!

On the OT side, doesn't the clear slimy material inside the urns, which covers the vials, look like the same slimy material which falls from an alien's mouth?

Vickie B

Jul-21-2016 12:24 PM

One more thing...perhaps the mural inside the temple changes because the rogue Engineers had painted over the original. It appears to have a painting of a face hugger beneath. The intended step in the procreation process of the Alien, ruler, race. The rogue Engineers painted a depiction of the Engineer race ruling over the Alien one. In other words, the current painting is falling away to reveal the older painting beneath it.

Michelle Johnston

Jul-21-2016 1:12 PM

The idea that the Zenomorph strain is the deified race to which the Engineers are subjugate is a deduction that follows from the fall of the Engineers on LV223 both in terms of their creative drive and worship of the zeno strain and that they were overcome.

I think there are some over arching elements of the developing mythos which run counter intuitive to such an idea and it is much easier to see their fall in the context of the received wisdom.

In neither Prometheus/A L I EN or A L I E N S is the zeno strain proactive it reacts to incomers. That suggests latent dormant trouble not the all powerful deity. An experiment that was hidden away in all four films which we stumble on. That theme runs through all the films from Prom to A's.

The sacrifice of the acolyte suggests benign sponsored intervention on a lifeless world. We then move to Earth where the Engineers have visited repeatedly and there is no sense of the all powerful zeno deity who would have intervened millions of years before to subjugate mankind intervening into their clones experiments.  

Whilst the Engineers have suffered a fall both on LV223 and on Paradise it has not lead to an ascendent Zeno culture which stands in its stead. The Zeno strain is there hidden unused and functions in a limited capacity and represents when it is activated, punishment, retribution for Paradise Lost. How that manifests itself will be precisely laid out in Covenant by visiting the Engineers Home world where the "evolving creature' will once again be stumbled on. That punishment is defined and driven philosophically to be appropriate by the creators, who remain hidden, not the gardeners who have erred. The opening scene suggests catalysing and re organising the basic building blocks of life quite different from the sub created experiments represented by the murals. The Zenomorph which had evolved by the time of Ripley was a perfect example of amoral reproduction with no moral purpose, devoid of creativity, other than punishment and the why that specific life cycle and type of punishment will be explored in Covenant. 

Put simply if the Zenomorph represented the apex of this mythos there would be no story they would have  conquered LV223 and Paradise and established themselves across the galaxy. They are an accident created out of the desire of the Engineers to break free from their bondage as they see it as gardeners of the creators.        

It is alway good to challenge assumptions but I find my view hardening as I think about it not because of what the narrative has spoken of but what it has not spoken of. The zeno in the end is a reactive strain a parasite not an instigator or controller of events in this universe.    

Diz

Jul-21-2016 1:20 PM

Wow, deep stuff, both former threads and new.  Very interesting tie-in with "Paradise Lost".  Hadn't considered the possibility of each of those urns being an engineer, of some stripe.  I totally missed the religious connotations of this room.  I was thinking in terms of Janek's comment of this place being a laboratory of WMD's.  So a military-industrial R&D site vs anything sacred.  Although it could technically be viewed as both.  When you add in the religious ramifications, then yeah, I see what you guys are theorizing about.  I just saw the head as socialist/fascist monument to "fearless leader" whoever.

But I totally get your religious angle here.  The connotations are so strong, along with Ridley's comments about Paradise Lost, and the term Covenant being used in the new title. 

I also see the point about the duality of their nature, much like our own.  The "Fallen Angels" are off on their own selfish tangent, just as PW was off on his.

On the murals, yeah that was very vague to me.  DB had a lot of fascinating insight on this, along with MJ and others.  It wasn't clear to me that they were actually "changing" as much as the atmosphere around them may have been obscuring them? Was this a result of the drop in atmospheric pressure from the approaching storm (i.e. external) of from the presence of the human lifeforms (internal)?  Or both!

Good theories here.  You might be bang on to what A:C goes into!   

 

      

Diz

Jul-21-2016 1:29 PM

MJ:  Yeah I agree with you about the zenos place in all of this.  It is a pure, engineered killing machine with no remorse.  An abomination in the sight of the higher being here.  Evidently made by unauthorized manipulation of DNA and ultimately a retribution against the engineers who created it.  And an opportunistic retribution against anyone else who accidently(?) stumbles upon it.   

Michelle Johnston

Jul-21-2016 1:35 PM

@Diz Janek would be a natural for you because he is the closest thing to the nobility of a protective benign military presence. As BD has said, and myself more recently, the characters crunch out the exposition through powerful one liners rather than more detailed storytelling exposition which Lindelof avoids.

The mutagen has been weaponised it is stock piled in huge quantities in the Juggernaut as a WMD you are bang on. But samples are left in the headroom as symbols of achievement by the LV223 Engineers. The head room is also a controlled environment which kept the "nuclear material" stable so it has a sense of being a laboratory. When the Engineers run in their it is clearly because it is secure and stable. What happened once they escaped is of course conjecture but if its a stable environment which neutralises the Zeno strain then the event of the mural probably took place within. Given we will see more heads and probably more headrooms expect this to be explained in C O  V E N A N T. Why because dramatically we need to go further another mysterious room with no narrative solutions makes no sense.      

Diz

Jul-21-2016 2:24 PM

Yeah I totally get it now, about how the storage area of WMD's is different from the urns on display in the "head room".  That one went totally over my head.  Same as with murals.  I'm seeing things as a "grunt", looking for threats, and cover, and angles of fire, not necessarily contemplating the meaning of rooms and artifacts.

You're so right, I do identify with Janek.  When he says who cares they think, we just need to get out of here, yeah, he's being very pragmatic.  Like someone needed to. 

And yeah, getting the "ultimate answers" is nice, but bringing that crap back cannot happen.  So he steps in once it's clear what's going on.  And takes the ultimate one for the team.       

Necronom 4

Jul-21-2016 2:39 PM

Yes.

Unclean = Sinner.

The goo seems to react to us sinners.

The poster was good though!

 

Vickie B

Jul-21-2016 4:11 PM

@Diz and MJ: I sometimes have trouble conveying thoughts, so I want to clarify the alien we see in the film 'Alien' and the 'diety' representing the alien race that we see inside the temple. Just as I see 'clean' and 'unclean' versions of the Engineers, I also see 'clean' and 'unclean' versions of the alien race.

The rogue Engineers created an alien species, in the likeness of the alien 'diety', to "kill their parents". It is these killer aliens that we are familiar with. They are mutated, 'unclean'. And they're very different than the 'diety' alien species.

Their error was that not only does this creation have the ability to kill their parents, it has the ability to kill anything it comes across. However, the intense desire to procreate whenever and wherever possible was not lost in the mutation. That desire still reigns high.

Diz

Jul-21-2016 5:20 PM

Yeah I'm seeing this LV223 tie-in now.  The clean and unclean.  The reaction to sin.  Makes more sense now than when I first read this in other threads.  Like DB, not sure I buy in yet, but definitely considering it as possibility.

 

 

BigDave

Jul-21-2016 6:38 PM

"Juggernaut as a WMD you are bang on. But samples are left in the headroom as symbols of achievement by the LV223 Engineers. The head room is also a controlled environment which kept the "nuclear material" stable "

If we look at this... then it could be twisted to fit in with a TRAP!

A back up plan... like if we fail.. then clues for the unclean will lead the to the place and their deaths..

But ultimately we dont know 100% the purpose of those being stacked in the Head Room... there could be a number of reasons...

This is going to be interesting debate ;)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-21-2016 6:52 PM

Was leviticus  used as a connection? or just coinsidence as the movie has some biblical references and themes but does that mean leviticus 2:23 was implied on purpose?

It can fit, if we loosely apply it yes... we have to ignore the broad context of leviticus or else it wont maybe connect as clear... also leviticus 4:26 could connect to the Franchise...

I guess its how you can make them connect like Nostradamus Quatrains

Here is leviticus 4:26

"He shall burn all the fat on the altar as he burned the fat of the fellowship offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for the leader's sin, and he will be forgiven"

New International version.... we have to remember each version can be taken out of context with regards to the Bible.. only real way is the Original so for example Greek/Roman

But back to Leviticus 4:26

We could maybe fit this in with the Space Jockey Sacrifice and Redemption... if his act was Benevolent

If i in a nutshell try and fit in Leviticus 2:23

Then it could fit in with the purpose of a Sacrificial Offering that is the Mural Room....  and that any who is unclean (Genetically altered and not clean DNA as Generations prior)  they would face death...

Yes something like this could fit for sure... but is that the case? who knows..

There have been theories that the Goo reacts with Sin... but i dont think so... i would assume that if Janek had his drink spiked and he paid Vickers that lets see if she is robot moment and had some Jiggy Jiggy.... would she not also fall pregnant like Shaw did?

If Shaw fell face first into the Black Goo in the Mural Room would she not mutated like Fifield?

So i dont really go with that idea... thats not to say i am wrong and its right though.

I can fit Leviticus loosely in that the Room is Sterile and Clean.. and that any lifeform who contaminates that room would activate those urns and in a sense be cut of from God... well face death/transformation.

The Space Jockey suits, maybe prevent them from contaminating the Room and those Urns. We have to remember the whole movie was not as well thought out with Lindeloffs draft and it has many contradictions..

Which Weyland File tried to fix but caused more but fixed a few.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-21-2016 6:58 PM

"I'm thinking that we are descendants of this 'sinner' race. We are considered 'unclean' because our makers, whose DNA we share, are 'unclean"

Could be... the movie is very ambiguous... but we have to assume some how the Biblical Creation and Fall Fable and the Greek Prometheus have to fit in loosely.

So one theory you could throw out there is that Mankind was not a intended creation... this was a tinkering with a Worlds Creation to further evolve the DNA to produce Mankind... without the consent of the Hierarchy

But it could be that a Faction of Engineers had instead interfered with us by giving us knowledge we should not have had.. maybe odd tinker with DNA... so we ended up being something that was against the intentions or purposes.

Like a few tinkers with Davids Hardware and Software could turn him into a completely sentient being, who would then have there own Free Will and Agenda... which could bare Consequences ... like Terminator Movies Consequences for evolving AI

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-21-2016 7:31 PM

"The Engineers were created by the Alien race through cloning. So that they have an endless supply. It explains why all of the Engineers look alike. As shown in the tablet, the sole purpose of the Engineer is to help the Alien race procreate. They are simply a step in the process. A very necessary step"

The movie is very vague and open.. and anything can go really, this is the beauty of the movie but also its Hercules Heel

I am going to address your comment above, and see if you could be right... well i can find some things that could aid to what you suggest..

ALIEN is based of Star Beast... ignoring the Cycle of the Creatures etc... a bit..

Star Beast had a Temple/Pyramid with a Sacrificial Altar, a Mural of the Star Beast Life Cycle and the Spores of the Star Beast which are the Start/End Life Cycle..

The Star Beasts where a Ancient Alien Race who could build Temples and where Civilized to a degree.. They needed Sacrifices to Procreate.. Hosts.. they bred a Organism they would use as a Sacrificial Cow.

HR Giger designs for Alien a Mural... showed a Life Cycle but it also showed masked (and in a alternative more Space Jockey looking Mask) beings one was on a Altar/Table being Sacrificed to Procreate the Organism...  the Sacrificial Humanoid was being Sacrificed by his own kind...  these Humanoids would use their own to Procreate the eventual Xenomorph

HR Giger designs 3 kinds of Face Huger, two of these designs they was Face Hugging Bald Humanoids who had a suit that was the same as the Masked Humanoids in the Mural.

While we can not take Star Beast as Canon.. because it had a Alien Creature.. the early Xeno.. would use Hosts to Procreate..  

The Alien idea evolved that for some reason the Humanoids/Space Jockey used themselves to procreate these Aliens...

If we try and tie this to anything religious... well Ancient Cultures.... then yes it would seem the Engineers where created for a Purpose to Pro-Create something..

If we take this stance, they could have worshiped the Xenomorph or its Ancestor..  this does not mean the Xenomorph are above the Engineers.. we cant rule that out though..

But it shows they was maybe used to Procreate Something not related Genetically to themselves.. they could therefore have the purpose of Procreating these Organisms as acting as Hosts...  As well as Sacrifices like the opening scene maybe.

So Engineers could be created for a purpose...

If we throw in the Annunaki Tale it would fit more with your COMMENTS.... The Annunaki Gods, created a Lower Cast Race the Igigi they where lower cast, that was tasked with Labor Tasks such as Mining for Gold

These Igigi rebelled one day and no longer wanted the burden... and so the Annunaki created Mankind to be used for the same purpose to replace the Igigi and Mine for Gold for the Annunaki.

If we replace Mining for Gold with Procreation of the Xenomorph... then we could use that as a theory.

Thus... the higher beings, created Engineers, whos role is to Sacrifice themselves to seed Life, and then evolve this life maybe further seeding until we get Genetically close Humans?

What if the creation of Humans was not intended.... what if the Xenomorph is required for some purpose.. its used for Technology, its Blood/DNA used for some purpose? we have yet to know.

Maybe we have either

1) The Sacrificial Scenes aim was to create Mankind, so that Mankind is used as Hosts for the Xenomorph..... but  a faction of Engineers saw more use for them and evolved us to be more like them, and taught us knowledge and got us to Worship them.... 

This Act was something against the wishes of the Engineers Creators or Hierarchy?

2) The Sacrificial Scene was to create Life that would evolve into Mammals but not quite Humanoids... these Mammals and other Life is used as Hosts for Xenomorphs or similar.

But a faction of Engineers then evolved these to create Humans, who they then evolved and taught stuff and got us to worship them... again against the Hierarchy wishes.

3) The Engineers are the Hosts for the Xenomorph or related... but they like the Igigi got fed up of this and either created Mankind to replace them as Hosts thus allowing them freedom.... or they rebelled and their Hierarchy created Mankind to replace the Engineers (or rebellious Faction).

At some point, one of the factions decided that Mankind had more to offer and evolved and taught us forbidden knowledge and this upset the Hierarchy or Jealous rebellious Faction.

These could work as a theory but then i have many others that could fit.. but then dont fit together...

For the theory above to work... we have to wander what Role and Purpose does the Xenomorph have... are they Gods... or their Ancestors was.. but the Xeno was a accidental creation based on the DNA of beings above the Engineers?

Do they worship the Xeno or related Ancestor for some other purpose but why?

Or do they need the Xeno or related Ancestor for some purpose.. be that Bio-Technology or Blood for the Creation Goo?

But in order to have Xeno related Organisms... they can only be procreated by means of Sacrifice which is where Engineers or Humans came in..

Again my other theories conflict the above..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Vickie B

Jul-21-2016 9:29 PM

@BigDave: I love the Annunaki tale that you shared. It mirrors some of what I've said. At one point it crossed my mind that the (rogue) Engineers created us to take their place in the Alien life cycle, but in the end I don't think it was the reason. Their DNA became 'everything' and I think that they had no way of knowing we would evolve. 

The stuff I've posted in this topic, for me, makes the most sense given that it plugs more holes than anything I've thought or read previously. I am not 100% sold on it, though. I don't think anything will ring 100% for me.  Lol!  I will keep an open mind until the film opens.

Michelle Johnston

Jul-21-2016 11:11 PM

@BD 

I read Leviticus 4 26 several days ago and concluded if LV223 is a recapitulation of the creators intent for the Engineers relationship with mankind then the act of the Space Jockey is one of a Atonement which in dramatic terms completes the cycle of protagonist/antagonist redemption which curiously enough is what I believe.

The tale of the Annunaki and its applicability to Ridleys Mythos does have some bearing on what is evolving (Note Charlie mentions the Sumarians in the briefing) just as the narrative of Paradise Lost informs the developing world view. However as Ridley has said, and its some thing that comes out of your "source" discussions, he is not merely replicating a defined existing narrative, he is taking them as inspiration and a s a result these mythos echo his own. He uses the term "thats as far as it goes" regarding P L so we are not going to see the poem played out on screen but we are going to see refractive echoes of those ideas as the fall of the Engineers and the notion of punishment and for why becomes clearer.

The same point applies to the Annunaki the idea of the resentful element of hierarchy which wishes to caste of its role will be, has already been echoed in the Engineers story.

This comes back to yours and mine central view that an awful lot of this story has already been told in P R O M E T H E U S.

The gardening Engineers who offer sacrifice is crucial.  

The shared DNA and the knowledge that the Jockey is linked to mankind is crucial.

That a sub created creature experiments on mankind (David/Holloway) and leads to the cat out of the bag in which a reluctant female and reluctant Engineer are crucial, hammers home the notion that unintended consequences (the promethean myth) lead to punishment.

The retribution meted out on the Engineer is appalling and the emergence of the Deacon something which has happened before. This plays straight into the Promethean myth, an act of punishment and dominance by Mr T, which could if any Engineers were left, repeat itself over and over again with the emergence of the Deacon.  

The only survivor of that episode is the one with grace and nobility, indeed right now David is relying on that to survive. This for me is the real fascination the curiosity of A C. How will Elizabeth and David react to their experiences to each other and how will the Covenant of their bond, established at the end of P, be played out. Will the sub created end with punishment in the same way as the sub created Engineers. David and the Engineers share the same relationship with their makers, will the story unfold in the same way.       

Did God make the Zenomorph in his own image from whom the fire has been stolen, could be, does the head represent a fallen deity with the Zenomorph the pure expression of creation could be, those coming for new life and high ideals on the Covenant clearly will believe something else, or are those types of theories matrix like and inversions of each persons take on reality an expression of self rather than a directors vision for a sequence of films. 

Put simply how much of each of our speculations are informed by our own personal convictions rather than an interpretation of a 77 years old developing vision. 

A deeply christian person may wish to project a benign view of what is happening whereas an atheist may be counter intuitive and an agnostic say its all a mess !

When I read another persons speculation I wonder how much it tells us of their own preferences for belief systems rather than what Ridley is doing. This maybe why Lindelof preferred an a la carte approach. That is not a criticism of anything I have read just an observation of quite complex analysis. 

Diz

Jul-22-2016 6:44 AM

MJ: Very penetrating analysis!  Do we let our own thoughts, prejudices, beliefs color what we see here, or do we strive for the truth, whatever that may be.  Yes, key consideration.  In my discussions with TC I have attempted to lay out the conservative Christian viewpoint- not that I still subscribe to it, but to be aware of how they view these kinds of (extra-Biblical)theories.  Does it still color my views, sure.  Do I also try and balance them with alternate views, yes again.  That is my whole purpose in examining Ridley's vision here.  But it begs the question: what are Ridley's own beliefs, prejudices, etc?  He seems to take a more atheistic approach, or at least agnostic, versus the fundamentalist who views the scriptures as a literal translation of events.  This is the point I have been trying to make.    

BigDave

Jul-22-2016 9:28 AM

"Their DNA became 'everything' and I think that they had no way of knowing we would evolve. "

The Star Maps and Ridleys comments suggest they had came to evolve us over and over, both Genetically and Technologically.

So they evolved us... but yes at some point we was Forsaken and Abandoned....  Maybe these Gods/Engineers thought  that at the level we was hundreds or thousands of years ago... in their arrogance they maybe never thought without them we would Evolve beyond Ancient Man...

But without them, we evolved.. we created means to apply Energy, Invented many things from the Light Bulb to Space Ships...

These Engineers who abandoned us, maybe never thought on our own we would achieve this....

This explains the Engineers Reaction... in the full scene... and also his wander at the Violin Girl and the Books on the Floor of Vickers Lifeboat..... he was intrigued to see how far Man had evolved without their help.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-22-2016 9:31 AM

Be similar to the New Planet of Apes Franchise... and mankind then rounds up the Apes before they get to the level of the last movie...

And we put them on a island far away and forget about them..... only to one day see them evolve more to the old Movies or even the 2000 one... and be able to construct buildings and ships... then sail to our waters and hijack our technology and posses Guns etc

Mankind would then have to fend them off and then go and Nuke that Island so they never come back and threaten or replace us..

This i feel is the stance of the Last Engineer.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Diz

Jul-22-2016 11:49 AM

BD:  You've got it going on, man, I never made these connections.  The comparison of us and apes, vs engineers and man; yeah I get that.  I never really understood why the engineer would go "high right" and just start killing everybody in that scene "for no reason". 

On a related note, man vs AI.  I think that one ain't gonna work out well either.  When the AI realizes he's superior to us, and/or tired of all our BS,what's to stop him from eliminating us?  And perhaps that would be our punishment for creating our own "slave race". 

MJ:  Yeah that was something I wanted to see as well.  How Shaw and David mend the fences and strive for some kind of détente (or covenant).  With the hints being Shaw doesn't have a big part, and lots of folks saying good riddance, I wasn't sure we'd see that.  I think that's a key part of the story and I hope it gets covered.    

 

Vickie B

Jul-22-2016 12:04 PM

The Star Maps and Ridleys comments suggest they had came to evolve us over and over, both Genetically and Technologically

Once again, I failed to convey correctly.  Lol! What I meant to say was that they had no idea man was going to be a product of their seeding. I believe they checked in from time to time and discovered us upon one of these visits. Once they discovered us, and saw our potential,  they nurtured us. I believe they never returned because the Engineers who are still loyal to the Alien race eradicated the rogues who created us. It is a loyal Engineer we see at the end of Prometheus who intends to eradicate us, the 'abomination'. The vermin. That Engineer marvelled over David for a second, before breaking him, because the Engineer was impressed at what these vermin (us) could accomplish.

The 'gods', the Alien race which created the Engineers, wanted their 'fire' back. I'm thinking the loyal Engineers achieved this, but not before the fight to get it back caused huge casualties on both sides.

One thing I want to ponder...

Shaw was not specific enough when she told David that she "wanted to go where they came from". He might take her request literally, even though he knew that she meant the Engineers' home planet. He has proven more than once that he can be a devious little android.

If he took her literally, then they won't necessarily be going to the Engineers' 'home planet', but instead where these loyal Engineers and their crew had just come from. And that could simply be to a planet the rogue Engineers had been banished to, or where they had been hiding out. The loyal Engineers arrived on LV223, to take back control of the structures and the 'fire' there, after erradicating the rogues on the planet where the rogues resided. After erdicating the rogues on the rogues' planet the loyal E's learned about us from the accessed data there. So after taking back the structures and the 'fire' within the structures on LV223, they were heading for us...to eradicate us as well. Just a thought...that, for now, makes sense to me.

Vickie B

Jul-22-2016 1:32 PM

I actually see a correlation between the Prometheus myth and this world Ridley has created. It goes like this:

God -> Titan -> Man

Alien -> Engineer -> Man

The titans had access to the God's 'fire'.  The rogue titan took it and gave it away behind the back of the God. The God realizes its forbidden use. Man keeps the fire, but the titan suffers a sort of painful banishment.

The Engineers had access to the Alien's 'fire'. The rogue Engineer took it and used it in forbidden ways, behind the Alien's back. When the Alien realizes its forbidden use, the rogue Engineer is sought out and killed. Man, a product of the forbidden use, is to be destroyed.

:D

 

Michelle Johnston

Jul-22-2016 2:35 PM

@VB & BD.

Billions of years ago the Engineers seeded baron planets. 

Thousands of years ago the same Engineers returned to us "nurturing" and even answered the question where they came from the Z R system.   

At the point after those final visits a catastrophic breakout of a deadly mutagen occurred on LV223. All the Engineers bar one perished and mankind continued to evolve. Mankind won.

What Prometheus is focusing on is the over reaching of the Engineers going beyond their original purpose (the fall) steeling of the fire sub creation freedom from bondage . However what they stole was a poisoned chalice and the sacrificial lifecycle lead to the mutagen. But why were they bent on the destruction on earth "you created us why did you then wish to destroy us". David said "because they can". However in Paradise Lost Satan seeks revenge for his fall by the corruption of mankind who are intended to replace the fallen angels in heaven. Perhaps the desire to destroy mankind was not just "because they can" but as revenge against their creators with whom they had rebelled echoing Satan's revenge. Is it not interesting that just at the moment when the mutagen is wrecking havoc/punishment on the LV223 Engineers they are setting off for earth on their deadly mission. Is it not also an example of felix culpa the fortunate fall that the matter that thwarts them is the impact of the mutagen on them. Either thousands of years later or several hundred years later the same felix culpa will be wound into the story of a certain Space Jockey, why did it land and set of the beacon because it completed the final sacrifice atoning for the sins of its race.Protagonist/Antagonist Redemption.

So how do we know the fallen angels went to war on heaven …. David will offer the narrative next year. Like BD I do not believe he is the narrative but he discovers the truth (and the knowledge and mechanism for which he will be the narrative).        

Michelle Johnston

Jul-22-2016 2:48 PM

@ Diz Man v AI 

This is some thing we have recently discussed at length the creator/creation paradigm.

It operates on several levels 

Creator/Engineer - rebellion breaking of bonds.

Mankind/David - "doesn't everyone want there parents dead" breaking of his bond with Weyland. 

The Engineers rebelled against there Covenant as gardeners which lead them to the creation of the Deacon in the mural.

David free of his Covenant with Elizabeth will lead to the creation of the new creature in Covenant (why Bio Mechanoid).

The Engineers were not content to simply serve as seeders/gardeners and sought freedom similarly David. His relationship with the Engineer culture which is becoming clearer and clearer is very much in evidence in  Covenant will be at the heart of the journey of the movie as he was crucial to the explaining and propelling the narrative of Prometheus.  

Michelle Johnston

Jul-22-2016 3:05 PM

@VB you mention earlier that the Alien Zenomorph represents the unclean version of the clean version of the Alien God. If the Engineers stole the creative power (The Promethean Myth) and then tried to create in God's image, as it was an act of sin it produced merely a counterfeit and hollow outcome. This echoes other mythologies (Tolkien and the Orcs as counterfeit Elves).

It would explain why they subjugated themselves to the face hugger believing this was a benign act. It would also explain why they offer the vials as sacred chalices to their god head. It was only once they had finally created a Deacon that they realised the error of their ways. Instead of an angel they created a serpent (Paradise Lost). When they set out on these experiments was it to create in God's image, quite possibly the Zeno strain represents an error or sin. Indeed it is self evident that whatever their intentions it was not to lead to their destruction.      

BigDave

Jul-22-2016 3:32 PM

Diz  Spot one ;)

Vickie, yes i understand where you are coming from a theory that well can also be plausible for sure, and was one theory i also had a long time back.. the thing is the ambiguity allows for many theories ;)

Indeed my take on a similar theory i had covered before and even the other day as one of a few possibilities.

The Seeding does not create Mankind... it creates the start of Evolution and Mankind was not planned...  but maybe these Engineers come back over periods of time and they do discover something interesting a life form with potential..

Maybe a Ape who knows, but then a Faction of Engineers then decide to tamper with the DNA more than they should have had to create us... without the consent of the Hierarchy..

A faction of Engineers had done, what Mankind had done with David... and they got punished for this.

But again this can be twisted to not be a creation on purpose... but a accidental one and then the further evolving and teaching this creation (Man) things is what was the Sin of these Engineers.

So yes that could work.... the beauty is there is no real single Theory that has any 100% Prove and its very open and i hope we get to explore which route they wish to take.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-22-2016 3:46 PM

Yes Vickie just checked i threw out some theories on this thread a few up ;)

But as far as whats really going on....  i did a post a long time ago about who the Engineers work for..

This was after Ridley made comments not long after the release of Prometheus about how he did not wish to Meet GOD in the First Movie... in relation to removing the Elders Scene perhaps?

Ridley then also had commented on how David and Shaw would beings who are not God in the traditional sense and are not Benevolent...

which means they meet a race or being that is above the Engineers maybe?

Ridley then said David is bringing Hell with him and what happens if the Black Goo infects... GOD... or Machine?

So i made a Topic in detail to discus who could be above our Engineers...

This gave options from ....

*A Race who the Engineers are created in their Image, like God/Angels... like Titans/Olympians

*The same Race just at a more elevated state.. like how Ancient Egyptians had Pharaohs who were more than mere Men, they were Demi Gods (but not)

*Was the creator a Machine, or Machines?

*Where they a Alien Race related to the Xenomorph?

*Was they another Alien Humanoid Race who did not look very Human/Engineer but are far from Totally Alien looking like Xenos... or are they a unrelated but very Alien Race?

*Finally is God a Divine Power, a Code... something that is not really Mortal... but maybe Energy or something else.

This was prior to other clues and comments from Ridley Years or many Months latter.... such as Biblical Fallen Angels and Prometheus Myth which he mentioned...

Which draws me to the beings above the Engineers as being similar... they are either a different cast... or they are just older and wiser versions and seen as Demi Gods (but not Gods) like Pharaohs.

Thus i think they are Humanoid and not Alien or Xenomorph related... but who knows...

We do have the Star Beast element... but in this while the Xenomorph would be a Ancient Race who are civilized they created Sacrificial Animals...

The Space Jockeys in this context where just explorers who suffered the same fate as Kane did.

Still any of these can still come into play...

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-22-2016 3:50 PM

If the Source however is correct and true, then it draws us to a more.... God/Angels (but more than one God) a Titan/Olympian  and Annunaki/Igigi  kind of role...  as for the Hierarchy and so we could see last level of this as Mankind/Android.

They did however hint to some Power these Engineers are under... this however does not have to mean literally a Supernatural Force..

Ridleys comments however backed this up a bit because he ponders... where is the Big Guy in all this..

Seems indeed what we are seeing is maybe a non-literal re-telling and connection to Paradise Lost.

Where maybe the Xeno strain is in context the Mutation of Fallen Angels to Serpents... and the Punishment of Satan to produce Sin (his daughter)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Vickie B

Jul-22-2016 5:07 PM

Thanks everyone for your input! I read as much as I could here on this forum until I couldn't hold my thoughts in any longer.  Lol!  You guys have great ideas and I'm going to try to catch up on the rest. 

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