The official Alien covenant plot synopsis only mentioned David 8 as the sole inhabitant of the engineer homeworld.Could it mean that the engineer race is extinct and that the last Engineer from Prometheus was infact the last engineer in the universe?
In my opinion,the Engineer race isn't extinct,but rather endangered.
Kinda like in zombie/apocalypse movies where majority of the human population is dead/infected there are groups of survivors all over the world struggling to survive.
"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.
Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"
I feel that the Engineers are not extinct, that they still exist in the universe in possibly several locations.
Janek made what i feel a true observation, when he announced that LV223 was not their home world but an instillation. It was clearly a military outpost of sorts.
It is possible that Paradise is also not their homeworld but home to an Engineer like race of beings or possibly a version of humans, as the petrified beings in the production photos and the glimpses of them in the trailers and tv spots appear smaller in stature than the Engineers from Prometheus.
I do feel that there is a much more powerful, darker and ultimately evil race of beings that we have yet to encounter that are probably the reason the Engineers and the black goo exist. Perhaps the dark deeds David has been up to calls out to them somehow, and they come in with a terrifying wrath to set things right or to regain control. Ridley did suggest in interviews that there was another form of life that may be the creator of humanity or Xeno's and it wasnt the Engineers.
I hope and wish that they do introduce another race of beings, something in control of it all, gods per se, terrifying and awe inspiring at the same time, an intelligent race of beings that are cosmic horror defined, and we find that they are behind everything.
@Lone I've become convinced that all those dead "things" that are burned to a char at the temple grounds are NOT engineers. Rather they are some humanoid derivative in the evolution process, more "Earthlike humanoid" than "Engineer humanoid". Their bodies are too small and underformed, it appears. Other theorists on youtube seem to agree with that concept as well.
I think it depends on how kind of Literal they intended Paradise to be in context to Paradise Lost.
In Paradise Lost we had Adam and Eve who after being lead astray by Lucifer/Satan and went against Gods Will, they was kicked out of Paradise.
We also have the Cherubim who are a High Ranking Sect of Angels who are tasked with Guarding Paradise and the Garden of Eden.
If we came from the Engineers and if they was the Forerunners to Mankind as Ridley Scott said so, then its possible the Engineers in Context are.
1) The Angels who was supposed to Guard Paradise hence the Engineer said he came from Paradise, as this was there purpose before they had Rebelled and became Fallen.
2) The Engineers are related to those beings on Paradise who some Rebelled and was kicked out of Paradise Thousands of Years ago or longer... and these who was kicked out Set up Shop Elsewhere and lead to the LV-223 Engineers.
I think there will be others in the Universe and maybe Galaxy but its a case of how Ridley Scott will cover these beings as far as in context of the Timeline of 2104 Onward... having them Wiped out for the most part does take care of any Plot Holes.
But leaves them to be covered in Scenes set way back prior to Alien Covenant if not thousands of years prior.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Extinct? Unlikely. Consider the navigational database David found...how many worlds?
You'd have to kill them off everywhere, every world, every ship to make them extinct, and I can't see that happening.
However, their numbers may well have been critically-reduced.
*Man's giant leap was just a stumble in the dark.*
Indeed and it was not just Worlds...
But Galaxies..... those Arrows clearly point to Galaxies, and throughout this image there are what looks like Galaxies all over the place that however are not Circled by the Ships Navigation.
I would assume the Area in Green Circle, is the Bubble that David observes is our Galaxy, and so if Engineers can Travel to other Galaxies then this is Vast.
The Nearest Galaxy to our Milky Way is Andromeda which is 2.5 Million Light years, at the Speed Prometheus took to get to LV-223 it would take it 130 Thousand Years to get to Andromeda
So we can safely assume the Engineers can reach those Galaxies, if they are only of smaller number in our Galaxy or just our Quadrant that are no longer, but others remain in other Quadrant's this would cover any Plot Holes as far as No Engineers in the Alien Franchise after the events of the Prequels to Alien.
They could be to far away for Mankind to ever Reach.
The USS Sulaco could only Travel about 270 Light Years per year
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
TY for pointing out the galaxies, as with my eyesight, they were very difficult to pick out until now!
Yes, that DOES change the Perspective a LOT, and I'd agree the 'bubble' is likely the 'Local' navigation database for our Galaxy.
*Man's giant leap was just a stumble in the dark.*
Another couple of images of the Engineer navigation room below:
There is a official short trailer to the film
Alien:Covenant Prologue: The Crossing
which is a bridge between the evens after the juggernaut left LV-223 and arrived finally at Paradise.
Dont expected what was the casue of their demise.
This confirms somehow that the Engineers are definitely not extinct and only one bigger outpost planet is lost in the near proximity of earth.
Nowhere they are extinct.
If you remember the control room of the Juggernaut in Prometheus you see they have data of hundreds of worlds in our and other Galaxies.
That planet in A:C was maybe a minor recreation planet/world for that species to meditate but nowhere the homeworld which would have much more surface structures and orbital structures.
If paradise was their homeworld then how could it contain such a small population from a race that has been around millions if not billions of years before humans? I means paradise looked like maybe 200-300 thousand maybe 500 pushing it. And their world looked lacking in technology and the buildings very like the middle East style of buildings and housing. Do you really believe engineers so advanced would live like this?
Maybe this (on planet 4, since ancient Engineer times) is their form of recreation, living with nature without any influence of their advanced technology.
They maybe came from this world to earth to visit us approx .every 400 years.
But their homeworld would be a massive accumulation of sentient lifeforms, mega cities, millions of satellites (providing/enhancing surface communication/deep space communication and observation), hundreds of thousands orbitings space ships.
David in his small Juggernaut would be vaporized millions of kilometers before reaching the planet.
Or maybe not and the Engineers remote control the ship and release some bad-ass yet-unknown-hidden countermeasures for biohazard situations which would sterilize the ship to microbe size and vaporize David & and other lifeform on the ships while leaving all high-tech intact.
I really expect the Engineers have the knowledge for this and have many times tought about worst case scenarios millions of years before.
In the Alien Advent video released recently David says he and Shaw found a "rotting paradise". Since so much is left ambiguous it is hard to know who the humanoids on this paradise were intended to be. A fading Engineer race or a race seeded by Engineers?
In an original script for Covenant the city was to have Giger-esque architecture (instead of the Roman-esque architecture) and was to be explored more by the Covenant survivors, whom find a massive orrery that clearly resembles the navigation system on the Juggernauts. These details would leave little to no doubt about it being the or "an" Engineer home world. David also spoke of the Engineers in past tense to Walter, as if they were all gone. Mentioning that they were space-faring for a billion years and that they left many ships behind.....that could go anywhere. This was all changed by the final script, perhaps to make planet 4 not a tried and true #1 homeworld. It was also unclear whether David acquired his knowledge of the Engineers ways simply from the data available within the systems within the Juggernaut he took or from it and the world below after the massacre of the humanoids on planet 4.
What we thought were Engineers in Prometheus may have been biologically enhanced Engineers (which themselves are more human like the humanoids on planet 4) or they might have been entirely synthetic, created to be advanced organic work horses in space. For a race that developed the technology over billions of years to reach multiple galaxies relatively quickly it seems unlikely that they have all died out. Whether the incident on LV-223 was an outbreak or sabotage it might have been a more localized incident as far as this quadrant of one galaxy. Two thousand years is nothing to a billion year old race that has hypersleep chambers that will sustain life for even longer than that.
Covenant took place 10 years after Prometheus and David had been marooned for 10 years, meaning it only took him a matter of months to get to planet 4 from LV-223.
Other Engineers are surely out there in other quadrants and in other galaxies....
The Engineers are surely looking for clues on planet 4 after the pandemic event.
It may take several years for the first scout/research ships so arrive but they will get really pissed of and unleash some nice high tech on the next threat they find.
Revisiting this after Alien Covenant shows us a few things.
Certainly in the year's 2093-2094 and so at the time Prometheus has taken place, we see that there are Engineers (or related Race) on the Planet David and Dr Shaw Eventually arrive at. So they was NOT Extinct as of prior to Davids Arrival.
Upon Arriving David Unleashes Hell on these beings and performs Genocide on their Species on this Planet killing what we can assume nearly all of them, and any who survived eventually would have died or been caught by David and used for his Experiments.
As of the END of Alien Covenant, we can assume there are NO Engineers left on that World (Planet 4).
But Ridley Scott gives us a insight into the sequel, where he confirms the Engineers will return to this World and discover the devastation and would no doubt be looking for the culprit.
So the Engineers are NOT extinct....
This World that David and Dr Shaw arrived at appears to be a Outpost/World that is inhabited by what Ridley Scott refereed to as the Original Engineers.
RS also mentions that Engineers Return to this World at certain regular intervals, this could be years as in 5, 10, 20 or much more like Hundreds of Years... But they do come and go to Planet 4.
I would still argue the case that Planet 4 CAN-NOT be the only World these Engineers Inhabit.. I would still Ponder their could be Many more out their in the Universe because WHY have other Galaxies on their Navigation Systems
I find a lot of Problems Stem from the Writers and how AC has to be Shoe-horned to Alien.... With 28 years to go to ALIEN having a Engineer World Thousands if not Tens of Thousands of Light Years away would fit the Story as far as Engineers Ships going to this place (David and Dr Shaw) But this would mean HOW do you introduce Humans into this Story and have it Directly Connect down the line to ALIEN?
This i feel is why Planet 4 aka Engineer Home-World had to be made some place much more closer to Earth to allow for a Human Ship to Arrive and Depart and set up Events that will lead to ALIEN all within a limited Time-Frame.
I think its a bit to much of a Coincidence the Engineers lived that close, and this could cause Continuity Problems and Questions for the Future and indeed the Original Alien Franchise.
I would like to think that Planet 4 was one of MANY Worlds the Engineers had inhabited. And so i think they are still FAR from Extinct... but that those that remain are located in the very Far Reaches of our Galaxy or even located in other Galaxies.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The ambiguousness that pervades Covenant makes it difficult to postulate much of anything with certainty, but Ridley did indeed say the Engineers would return to find their world decimated. Any species of life could eventually die off, even a billion+ year old species of Engineers. It was mentioned in earlier Prometheus scripts that The Engineers may have been unable to procreate like humans anymore, having lost the ability in their more recent past. Even being capable of living 300,000 years, without a procreative solution they could devolve & die out. But, you would think with such a high level of genius and advanced knowledge of biology and engineering that they would be able to find a solution.
In the Advent video David does not explicitly state that The Engineers are all gone, but he does refer to the humanoids on Planet 4 circuitously as Engineers and references them in past tense. Says they were religious people that believed sacrifice would absolve them of their sins and that they were creators that understood that you have to give life to the wolf & the lamb. Then goes on to say that they decided to "cast out the wolves and undo their creation" with more ambiguousness, not defining what their "wolves" or "creations" were. When David references *his* wolf he is refering to the Xenomorph and his lambs are the colonists. We would then be compelled to take it that the Engineer's wolves would be similarly vicious
We can speculate that :
The Prometheus Engineers were their creations, as advanced organic AI. Genetically modified for the rigors of space. Biologically perfect. But could they also be their wolves? The sacrificial Engineer could be an earlier version of organic AI that carried Engineer DNA and the "Destroyer" Engineers seen on LV-223 could have been the latest evolution of them, or a different faction. Opposed to the sacrificial Engineers. Bent on destroying life seeded by its creators. Being the banished wolves. But why cheer on the ships of a "returning wolf", as we see in AC? Maybe sacrificial Engineers and Destroyer Engineers both use Juggernauts now and the teardrop ship is a thing of the past? So the people of Planet 4 thought that the Destroyer Engineers were wiped out, expecting friendly sacrificial Engineers to be aboard David's Juggernaut....
The LV-223 Engineers were seemingly ambushed and attacked. Perhaps the Planet 4 "original Engineers" used sacrificial Engineers (that believed in their purpose) to wipe out the rebel faction on LV-223, that had been gearing up to commit genocide on numerous Engineer-seeded planets as an ultimate act of rebellion that failed.
"Maybe sacrificial Engineers and Destroyer Engineers both use Juggernauts now and the teardrop ship is a thing of the past?"
Possible and i propose the idea that the Juggernauts are just the latter version of Seeding Ships that they use instead of the Ancient Pebble Ships and Sacrificial Method. HERE
Here is my latest Reply on that thread as i feel it fits more with this one...
I think we need to wonder and ask what is the WHOLE Purpose for it all, and this is a Question that we dont have any real definite answers for. The KEY thing that RS mentions over and over are they are Space Gardeners but this could mean they are Genetic Gardeners where they Seed/Grow/Evolve Various forms of Species/Organisms or it could be read into the Purpose for this is to Harvest them... so its ambiguous.
If we look back to Alien:Engineers which kick started the whole Back Ground to the Engineers then their Ancient Species had Evolved themselves past needing to Procreate (they lost this ability due to Evolution, a Evolution Engineered by themselves) So it was hinted that the Sacrificial Scene was a attempt to Spread their DNA for the Greater Good/Future of their Species.
IF you was on of those in Charge of this Agenda.. then indeed having a Place to TAKE/KEEP your Perfected Results to use them as a Basis to Reseed on other Worlds makes Perfect Sense.
My theory for the Engineers Sacrifice was to Eventually regain Female Humanoids they could Procreate with in order to Populate their Genepool which i made a Topic on prior to the Release of Alien Covenant and when i see those Planet 4 Engineers they appeared to be like Human/Engineer Hybrids to me.
But Ridley Scott referred to those Engineers as Originals and so our LV-223/Prometheus Engineers must be Genetically Engineered beings like Replicants are in Blade Runner.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
A lot has changed and Evolved regarding the Plot for the Prequels, a number of things change Draft to Draft, Movie to Movie... But beginning with the Alien: Engineers draft and others by Jon Spaights the basis for our Engineers was a Race who had taken to Genetic Engineering and making/upgrading themselves to Perfection and in doing this they lost the ability to Procreate.. while they may Live for Thousands of Years they are not Truly Immortal... It would be like Vampires if the World had been overtake by Vampires where the Vampire Plague had infected everyone (I AM LEGEND) for instance or similar, and so Humanity had now become IMMORTAL so to speak, Vampires can be killed however.... so while they may Live Eternally, they can DIE .... What happens if becoming a Vampire means THEY can-not Procreate? If Every Human was Vampire THEY could eventually all Die out.... Especially if they need Blood (could be from Mammals).
This is maybe the Dilemma the Engineers had in Spaights Concepts and Ideas.. Hence the need to Seed Worlds with the Sacrificial Goo.
However.... as things progress Changes are made, our 15ft Engineers from the earlier drafts had been downsized to 9-10ft tall as of Final Drafts... Sadly Prometheus could not create the Illusion of 9-10ft tall and so we ended up with 7-8ft Engineers.
Alien Covenant further changed the Engineers by giving us those different looking Engineers on Planet 4, here are some of the changes we see.
*They have Female Engineers (Why the Sacrificial Scene/Purpose then).
*They are a Race who stand between 6-8ft tall.
*They are a Race who live for about 150 years (Ridley Scott claimed)
*They are the ORIGINAL Engineers (Ridley Scott claimed)
This then makes us Ponder what are the Prometheus Engineers?
Ridley Scott said the next movie would be more about AI than the Xenomorph, but he also said that Roy Baty was AI and so in that context he is saying Replicants are AI which could mean those LV-223 Engineers could be Biologically Engineered versions of themselves, Clones/Replicants per-say who MAY-NOT be able to Procreate.. And we have to ask WHY was they Engineered? Were they Created/Engineered by the Planet 4 Engineers? Are they a group who chose to Engineer/Evolve themselves?
You raise good points Seeder9 in that if there was a Conflict between the Prometheus Engineers and Alien Covenant ones, then WHY would the Covenant ones seem to not be alarmed but welcoming of the returning Juggernaught.
Ridley Scott had refereed to the Prometheus Engineers as like their Military and this maybe could make sense... but the Juggernauts only real Military Power is dropping the Cargo of Bio-Weapons. But maybe they had other ships with other Weapons/Defenses. Having those Engineers as Military would make SENSE more IF our Planet 4 Engineers looked like the Sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus... but they DONT so i think a lot of Problems is there is NO set Background to Stick too, so like many things in the Prequels it appears their is NO Creative Control and a case of TOO MANY COOKS in the Kitchen.
So its a case of NOW do we take the Advent Reveals on-board as to what is going on? Then indeed the Wolf/Lamb becomes interesting to ponder...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"But Ridley Scott gives us a insight into the sequel, where he confirms the Engineers will return to this World and discover the devastation and would no doubt be looking for the culprit." BD
That must mean that either there is either another Engineer city on that planet or that there are other Engineers that live on another. There got to be more Engineers around than those that we saw in Alien Covenant.
I think that a lot of problems that are tied to the prequels come from not having a plan that they stuck to before they did Prometheus. The Engineers were disappointed in humanity so they would probably like to be as far away from them as possible, right? Why be on a planet that is so close to earth?
That is a Great Point.... and a Hindsight for FOX
With David and Dr Shaw and the Engineer Ship they could have set off to a Home-world that was FAR FAR away from Earth... Hence why they never returned and are not in the Alien Franchise apart from the Space Jockey (which at this point was there for about 2000 years).
But its how do they Shoe-horn it to connect to ALIEN with the U-Turn they made in making the Prequels Actually NOW lead to Alien as opposed to Steer Away as Planned. So for them to introduce a Human Ship into the Scenario... they had to make the Engineers World more closer to HOME...
A mistake IMO but maybe necessary if they are going the route that the Xenomorph and thus Space Jockey Event happens AFTER Prometheus leaving them 28 years to fit it all in.
But looking back to Planet 4, Ridley Scott said that the Engineers come and go to this Place at Regular Intervals but by that i think he was on about they Return Over and Over... Much like they did on Earth in the Ancient Past.
Ridley Scott kind of indicated that PLANET 4 was where the Engineers Home-World was... and also ALL the Engineers were located in that City. This seems very very strange to me. But fits PERFECTLY with my take on it all, and this Place is a Seeding Farm where the Engineers use this place to keep, breed those Engineers we saw as they are then used for Seeding Worlds... And by having these Sacrificial Beings in ONE Place means they can be kept a good watch over.
Prometheus opened up a Massive Potential for Creation and other Life in the Galaxy, and a Scope of Beyond our Galaxy... Its unlikely the Engineers are only connected to LV-223 and Planet 4 and its unlikely Earth is the only Humanoid World they Seeded/Evolved and Taught/Visited.
Alien Covenant Shrank this Engineer Race to a Ship in a Bottle but he revealed Engineers will return to Planet 4 and i think they surely must have created more Humanoids and surely they also must have other Engineer Outposts/Worlds.
If this is not the CASE and we have Planet 4, LV-223 as the Engineers Worlds of Interest and then Earth was a World they seeded and that they go around Seeding and Visiting a Few More i think this would be a bit of a Cop-Out if we dont see the Engineers have other Worlds they inhabit and not just visit time to time... Also if they reveal Origae-6 was a Engineer World, or is a Engineer World or was a Humanoid World they Seeded.... then i think this would reveal quite a bit of LAZY and Shoe-horning style of Writing where its all a bit of a Coincidence.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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