Are Engineers extinct?
Posted Jul-08-2016 10:12 AM
The official Alien covenant plot synopsis only mentioned David 8 as the sole inhabitant of the engineer homeworld.Could it mean that the engineer race is extinct and that the last Engineer from Prometheus was infact the last engineer in the universe?
In my opinion,the Engineer race isn't extinct,but rather endangered.
Kinda like in zombie/apocalypse movies where majority of the human population is dead/infected there are groups of survivors all over the world struggling to survive.
Posted Jul-08-2016 11:12 AM
Chestbursters! I respectfully disagree... Engineers should be in the next film in some capacity. We already know from an article in The Wrap from December 2015, Scott stated the following when talking about 'Alien: Covenant'...
"There was always this discussion: Is Alien, the character, the beast, played out or not? We’ll have them all: egg, face-hugger, chest-burster, then the big boy. I think maybe we can go another round or two."
So, you'll get what you're looking for, and most likely the Deacon as well. But to keep the Engineers out entirely wouldn't make sense to me. Maybe there will simply be a quick flashback or hologram, but they should still be in the movie in some capacity to help tie in to 'Prometheus'.
On to the topic that Dark Nebula brought up... I like the endangered aspect. I don't think they are extinct yet. At least, I hope not. And it may even be cool if somehow an Engineer makes their way into Blomkamp's 'Alien 5'.
Posted Jul-08-2016 11:42 AM
In explaining the MORB, it's creation, biology and purpose the Engineers would need to be included in some capacity.
Whether that is via flashbacks, hologram, whatever.
Those set pics definitely included dead Engineers on the steps and foreground. So that will be explained, whether the aftermath of an event a long time ago, the result of David's meddling, or something completely different.
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
Posted Jul-08-2016 11:46 AM
Ah, I see. I meant to say that the engineer shouldn't play to prominent a role like you said, a flashback would suffice for continuity.
An engineer in Alien 5 would be interesting, I'd like to see how Hicks and Ripley react to it!
On another note, has anyone thought this concept art bears a bit of resemblance to an engineer type creature?
Posted Jul-08-2016 11:47 AM
The Engineers were the most interesting thing about Prometheus in my opinion! I love the expanded mythology. They definitely need to be explored more in the coming sequels. They clearly have some sort of sacrificial rituals that could use some elaboration and Ridley has said that they are violent fu#kers, so should be fascinating to see them show up again.
That being said, I also think that they shouldn't be over exposed either. Leaving some odd mystery surrounding them is also important, I think.
Posted Jul-08-2016 2:22 PM
I'm with Membrane on this one, I'm all for seeing more Engineers and their technology in Alien: Covenant! To be honest, I'm more interested in the Engineer back story and learning how their creations came to be, as well as why they created them in the first place.
The Alien angle of this new series should be subtle and not the primary focus. It was the primary focus of Alien - Alien: Resurrection and frankly I think they've milked that cow dry.
Posted Jul-08-2016 2:28 PM
DARK NEBULA - Now this is a very compelling question! Hmm...I would have to say that the Engineers are likely dwindling in number - perhaps spread thinly across the galaxy. Most might even be slumbering within hypersleep capsules upon uncharted worlds, awaiting some unknown moment in which they will once again awake! :)
Posted Jul-08-2016 2:41 PM
"In my opinion,the Engineer race isn't extinct,but rather endangered."
Maybe this is something that they can develop? If the Engineers are being endangered then they want to expand their specie but if you try to play with nature you get burned. Perhaps the whole movie shouldn't be about this but maybe a part of it could be?
Hopefully when they are done with explaining the Xeno and the Engineers some mystery will still remain about them (both) I hope.
Posted Jul-08-2016 3:53 PM
Space Jockey = Engineers
So no, I don't think we're done with the Space Jockey's history.
I assume Shaw and David didn't find any Engineers when they tried another Juggernaut?!
Maybe they flew the Juggernaut with a Engineers in suspension?
Probably had one Engineer for each Juggernaut on LV223....How many Juggernauts where on LV223?! *shrugs*
Posted Jul-08-2016 4:52 PM
We have to remember the Synopsis is not Factual as far as how the movie will go... its a set up .... to set us up for the movie...
The movie Synopsis will not give a lot away... Prometheus could have had a similar one... saying about off to meet our makers, but only finding the result of a disastrous event had befallen them...
Shaw and Holloway had hoped to find these beings who created us... but there was nothing but Dead Engineers.... it was not till latter in the Movie after Shaws C-Section that she found out they (Engineers) are not all dead.
And so the Covenant Synopsis should be taken from the point of view of the Crew.... this does not mean that latter on... Shaw appears and has been kept some place away from them.
Or indeed Engineers...
But i will agree that i think Engineers are all put extinct as far as locally in the Galaxy and Potentially on Paradise..... and also maybe there were a few left when David arrived?
But not anymore....
It depends where they are going with the Franchise... we have to remember the Engineers are a Plot Hole as far as why did they not come back.... and after David and Shaw attempt to go to their Homeworld some 28 years prior to Alien... why have we not seen any Engineers from Alien to Aliens... to Alien 3 and Alien R
There has to be someway to explain why they never came back and yes EXTINCTION would do the Job..
But we have to remember... Alien was not about Ripley, or the Company not totally... without the Xenomorph Egg Cargo we would have had no movie.
Without the Space Jockey we would not have got that Cargo or Signal that Alerted the Company to LV-426
They tried to show us the Space Jockey and Engineers where the same... but with a few flaws... this could change now... but regardless the Space Jockey would or should play a role as in being connected to the Engineers....
I hope they dont go the route of the Jockey being David, or his Doppelganger or Shaw or any other Human.
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
Posted Jul-08-2016 5:09 PM
Prometheus was setting up sequel....
The aim was to not really follow LV-223 and Deacon but to go where David and Shaw was off too.... the movie was left open with Two Endings.... Two options to explore.... they even said One movie goes off to Alien and the other to Something New...
(does that imply LV-223 and Deacon = Alien?) And going off to see the Engineers Homeworld is something new?
Now we are off to connect to Alien more with Alien Covenant..
But lets not forget Ridley had set up to follow David and Shaw to Paradise or at least the Engineers Homeworld..... Ridley did not want to meet God in the first movie... which implies who he sees as God in the Franchise Exists and is not the Engineers...
He deleted the Elders Scene for this purpose, perhaps? To re-design Elders... or to remove the connection that Engineers can get old and frail?
Then latter Ridley indeed confirmed they would make a sequel.. they focus would be on David and Shaw... and they would find BEINGS... but these Beings are not GOD and are not BENEVOLENT....
But David would be bringing Hell with him (Cargo) and what happens if that Cargo infects.. God? or Machine?
And so yes... there was the idea that when Shaw and David arrive they would indeed find some remnants of Engineers Society or beings related to them in some way.
I had a source give information about the Prometheus 2 drafts.... not sure if its true or not... some things sounded bizare to start with... but then 6 months after (just prior to Alien Paradise Lost) and onwards things keep coming out that do seem to match up...
But ignore that... if we go only by Officially what we have been shown with Alien Covenant... then yes the Engineers are implied within it all.... if only vaguely...
Alien Covenant is set 10 years after Prometheus.. do we assume David only just arrives at Paradise just prior to the Covenant? surely it does not take the Juggernaught that long.. and surely no way a Human ship could pursue it?
So we have to wander what David has been up... since he and Shaw found another Engineer Ship.. to when the Covenant Crew Arrive to find him (David 8) all alone on Paradise.
There is that scene of disaster that does seem to show maybe Engineers, or some related beings... or ancestral link between them and us.
But the Question of the Topic is ... are the Engineers Extinct....
As in by the time of the end of Prometheus? Who knows....
As in by the time the Covenant sets down... maybe... or so we could be lead down that path.... we have 2-3 more movies to tie into Alien... i think thats a lot of movie to cover Xeno Origins... and not explore the Space Jockey/Engineers.
I think we will see Flash Back Scenes... for sure.. but will we see Hologram Scenes.. or even a Alive Engineer in the next movie? or movies after.. as far as one or a few being ALIVE post year 2094? After the Death of the LV-223 Engineer and Birth of Shaws Deacon Child..?
Prometheus 2 was setting us up down the path to meet these beings ..... the source claimed the next movie was indeed to be about them...
so its how much has Alien Covenant Changed.. compared to the ideas Ridley and Fox had as far as whats next for the Engineers, David, Shaw the Xeno Origin and connections.... Post Summer 2015 when the Concept and Draft had started to change... (John Logan and Alien Covenant).
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
Posted Jul-08-2016 5:59 PM
With Dave a bit on this ... but ...
I'd like to see the elders being the top dog, overlords (hate using the word God) ... and the engineers the slaves (experiment fodder) ..
I'd also like to think that, the huge pebble ship is still active (look how old the elders are) ... maybe it's on paradise or somewhere close (to their home) ... beings with that technology and advancement would not just die off ... engineers yes, maybe but not the elders ... and where all the women at? ... probably on that ship (or the main home world, not Paradise) ... the engineers could be birthed by the elders using advanced tech (matrix style) ...
And yes to seeing more holographic recordings for flashback & continuity ... which could've been transmitted back to main base ... maybe David finds more info that way as he knows how to work it now ...
But also, if the Prometheus exhibition did not meet the engineers, things would still go to plan (infection, etc) with the same results but only if a female engineer engaged with a goo infected engineer, because their DNA matches ours, Human ... so a similar outcome would result ... it's just that the crew fu*ked it all up by interferring and letting it all loose ... probably why it was taken away from the main homeworld to the desolate planet in the first place, to protect their species? ...
Didn't see any Engineers from Alien to Aliens, to Alien 3 and Alien R could be because they didn't think a prequel would be made ... or they didn't know how to write it in?
Paradise, I don't think, is the main homeworld ... it could be the testing ground for the experiements/construction of the goo ... and by the looks of it, that went Pete Tong (wrong) too ... David's intervention? ... don't know but I don't think he would survive that outbreak, seen in the set photos ... he may have found out why it went wrong though ...
@Monster Zero ... well there were 5 silos on the planet, so maybe 5 ships as well? ... may have some other engineers in hypersleep ... I peronally would've dumped them ... just to be sure ...
Posted Jul-11-2016 12:30 AM
Yes they should be dust in the wind save for an unlucky few, they serve something but that should be buried not to be seen, hinted and heard in hushed tones. Would like to avoid exposing "the big bad" too much that is what made Alien so good and it was the mistake that Sleepy Hollow made in season2.
Posted Jul-11-2016 2:45 PM
Also, consider the time-spans of the various civilizations involved here. Is the time-line set in stone? Do we really know when the Engineers first emerged as a civilization? Could they have been long gone by the time we were a space-faring species?
Look at the ancient civilizations on earth. Look at how we have evolved over time. We started out as biology experiments, and then traveled through space, searching for our origins. It's only natural to assume our "creators" were not static, but evolved as well. Even if that meant their demise.
What seems to have out-lasted them is their "black goo". So in a way, is that immortality, as your DNA is re-combined with other material? So the "engineers" live on, through us, and other species. Even if their original life forms are long gone.
Posted Jul-11-2016 6:08 PM
Well there was a war between factions a Rebellion and it would be likely the Engineers and Hierarchy could have suffered a lot due to the wars they had.
But while having no Engineers left, as a way to explain why we never see them in the Alien Franchise or they never came back to visit us again in the context of the franchise... could work..
I think they aimed to explore these Engineers and not to kill them off... so there could be a other reason.
The source mentioned that Shaw had Questions and one of those was why was we forsaken and abandoned, prior to Prometheus Shaw would have wandered why they never came back... did they turn there back on us for something we had done?
Or did they leave us to be but left clues for when we was ready?
So off she went on her mission with the Prometheus crew and she did not find out what she was hoping to find...
So now she still wanted to know why we was abandoned and why they wanted to destroy us and why bother create us in the first place... we must have been important to them, then surely what did we do wrong.
She still hope that above the Engineers is a God similar to the Biblical one she has Faith in.....
The source said she gets her answers well some, but they are far from what she would have wanted and in reality we was not special at all.
They said the Green/Paglen draft touched upon themes that in regards to being forsaken and abandoned could connect with the Covenant name...
Which could imply that a COVENANT is involved in some way to the old Plot, in context to maybe we we have not seen any Engineers etc after the failed plan of our destruction.
I think the source is hinting that the old drafts could linked to a Covenant but now seems maybe the new movie is running with these theme. maybe on multiple levels just as the Prometheus name did in that movie.
So a Covenant... and that badge....
The Ark of the Covenant was a place where Gods Commandments and Rules where kept, it was part of Gods Covenant with his Chosen Tribes of Isreal on their journey from Slavery to Freedom back to their Promised Land to obey and follow the rules of God.
The Ark was given divine protection it not only contained the binding rules and agreement with God but Artifacts that had great power...
The Ark has Two Cherub Angels depicted on them... these could be a sign of them Guarding the Covenant with God, The Ark or the Chosen People.
Cherubs in context to the Bible, Protect Paradise, the Garden of Eden and are at the side of Gods Throne.
So the badge could show that Paradise is protected, or the crew it could have many meanings...
But back to Covenant as a Word and ignore the Badge...
A Covenant is a agreement, and usually to re-frame from a action.. and in Biblical context there have been a number of Covenants..
One that stands out was with Noah... God had decided to forsake Mankind for its fall, and so he chose to save Noah and his Family as they where Just and Righteous and would follow Gods Rules and Plan....
He saved Noah so that Mankind can start a fresh so that Noah can pass on Gods Will, and God Flooded the Earth but after doing so he made a Covenant with Noah that he would never ever use a FLOOD on Mankind again.
Gods other Covenant was with Mosses he helped mosses to escape from slavery by the Pharaoh of Egypts Rule..... God provided Mosses the means to set free Gods chosen people..
Then as part of this deal, he had promised them they would get the chosen land back and also God set down the 10 Commandments that if the chosen follow to the letter they would be looked after by God.
So when we all add it up, and try and tie it in...
Maybe the Engineers or Hierarchy had chosen to Forsake Mankind, to leave us to destroy ourselves and they made a Covenant to never use the Evil Biology again that caused destruction to the Engineers.
This is one way a Covenant could come into play?
And explain why they never came back...
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
Posted Jan-04-2017 10:40 PM
Sry for necro but an interesting topic.
I dont think the species themself is completly extinct (they are a space faring species) but their civilisation/culture is heavly damaged since their homeplanet is destroyed.
What is left are maybe dozens of smaller outpost on moons/planets, which dont play a role anymore (on the grander galactic point of view like in the old ancient times) since the ressources and logistics are literally zero at this point.
Maybe hundreds left, with luck thousands.
If that few cant reproduce then they are ultimately doomed.
The remaining Engineers will probably strugle to survive and try to recover from this disaster, if even possible.
That would be an extreme long process anyways and explain why we hear nothing about them in the movies, except their remainings(dead bodies, old derelicts/ruins).
Posted Jan-05-2017 3:12 AM
as a race capable of space travel for many thousands of years I doubt theyl be extinct as they will most likely have colonised other worlds, which is what I believe the planet in covenant to be, tho theyr numbers may be dwindling due to war of some kind. maybe an interstellar civil war between factions. interesting that the ship in the opening scenes of Prometheus is nothing like the engineers ships wev seen such as the derelict or juggernaught. would suggest other factions of theyr civilisation or a completely different variation of the engineers from another planet
Posted Jan-05-2017 3:39 AM
If we take a look at one of the leaked set pictures we can see a really tall engineer subduing a creature under his armpit among other engineers or humans. That is if we consider the flashback pompeii style scene to be that of humans being turned into ash. If those are not humans but engineers then, it seems there will be two types of Engineers since the one in that scene seems to be about 4 feet taller than the rest in that scene.
Want some candy?
Posted Jan-05-2017 4:23 AM
Interesting one . . . if SJ and engineers are different then you'd think given their intergalactic abilities and seeding desire that there should be many still around. But perhaps not close too Earth?!
If they are one and the same the above still applies but it makes me think any 'civil' war may have been quite catastrophic for the species given the nature of the weapon being used . . .
In short, I think some remain but we may never get to 'meet' them as it were.
My gut feeling is we will see them again in AC- in some form or other
Posted Jan-05-2017 6:44 AM
I think that scence you mentioned is that leaked set photo showing dozens of burnt Engineer bodies near an ancient structure.
Indeed. They mastered space travel so it's unlikely that they are completly/absolutly gone.
The question is: How big of a role the planet Paradise is.
If it's really their homeworld than it would have a massive impact in their presence near earth(relative position in the Galaxy) and the whole remaining galaxy.
If it's just a bigger (but older) outpost then for sure they are still plenty in numbers but have given up on their plans for this part of the galaxy.
Also an interesting point some of you mentionend:
Are there different types of them? Elders, warriors or are the Engineers themself a creation of a greater lifeform.
One is for sure. The species that sacrificed themself at the intro scene in Prometheus is the same kind the Human crew woke up from the cyro sleep. They have almost not changed over the millions of years physicalwise (have they changed at all? not sure). Same pale skin, dark eyes, demigod like body/strength.
Posted Jan-05-2017 11:30 AM
@Gralen - I think the intention from Prom was to suggest the SJ and engineers are one and the same. However, there are obvious scale issues and the ships are different in shape. Some on here have speculated the derelict may have withered and decayed due to it being part bio which explains for the growth and differences. Could be!
I'd be happy to waive that though tbh, but they could go a route of SJ being the Elder or 'creator' of the engineers.
I'm a bit torn on this issue and there aren't enough real clues or evidence to make a clear guess.
re your last point - I'm not so sure. When I 1st watched it I assumed that was the case but on reflection I have doubts. The look of the living engineer seems to be fused with biotech of some kind as opposed to a more natural aesthetic at the beginning. The body language is also subtly different. More in reverence early on but much more focused and commanding at the end (could be nothing though) It could just be part of their space suit but I have a feeling we are seeing either a 'renegade' engineer or a different faction altogether. Also, we don't know but Id assumed that a lot of time had passed since the opening scene and what we see in real time. Who knows what had become of that race during what could have been millions of years ...
As I said though, it's all guesswork at this point which makes it so much fun :)
I'm also with Chris and others above - my main focus and interest form here on in is the engineers and how and why the SJ /derelict and its cargo came to be. The ALIEN comes along as a link in the chain, a part of the narrative as it were, rather than the focus.
Prometheus has opened a lot of doors . . .
Posted Jan-05-2017 12:16 PM
Maybe if others who've proposed the engineers can no longer procreate, perhaps the idea is that they seeded us so that they could eventually use us as a means to procreate. Then maybe they went to sleep to pass the time while we evolved. Maybe all the engineers are asleep waiting to wake up. Maybe in one of these films we'll see the whole civilization of them come out of sleep (or perhaps that will be some threat that the protagonists end up having to stop before it's too late)
Posted Jan-05-2017 2:02 PM
I do think as well that the classic alien is definitely not as scary as it once was, which is why, I THINK, that the Neomorphs and Protomorph are going to be front and center as the primary threat. I also think they will set up the Ultramorph and Deacon as the main threats in the next sequels
Posted Apr-12-2017 3:53 PM
The Engineers are most definitely not extinct. What David killed in Alien Covenant may not be Engineers at all, but one of their creations. There also exists the possibility that this city was an outpost for rebel Engineers with limited access to technology. This might be the Last Engineer's "Paradise."
Posted Apr-12-2017 4:30 PM
I think there was the idea to show us more about these Engineers, but going this route does open up a few holes as far as the Alien Franchise and why we dont have Engineers mentioned or interacting with Mankind even as far forwards as Alien Resurrection.
Prometheus opened the Door up for a expanded universe it showed all these beings was killed of on LV-223 but left us to ponder where did they come from and what would Shaw and David find...
Finding too many Engineers would be a Problem... One basically took out 3 Humans and a Android with ease...
Ideally it would be to find only a few left, and explain some kind of event that saw the end to many of them....
But it was teased indeed there are beings above these Engineers we saw in Prometheus both LV-223 Engineers and Sacrificial.. The Elders Scene was cut because Ridley did not want to meet God in the first movie and he referred to those beings in the image above in the previous post as the Apostles and Superior Beings.
So their is a Hierachy above those Engineers. The Question is how many layers and where are they now?
I think with Alien Covenant they have realized most fans want to get back to what made the Alien Franchise and that was the Xenomorph and Eggs, the Company the Androids and the Humans who have to put up with the suffering caused by the encounters with these Alien Organisms (Xenomorph).
Expanding beyond to the Engineers, who created them where are they all at.. may be distracting off the Path that Fox feel is more relevant.
So it appears indeed all the Engineers are dead by the time the Covenant Arrives, Dead as far as within the limited parts of the Galaxy Mankind has visited in the Franchise.
This tidies up any Plot Holes as far as Alien Time Line goes with no Engineers turning up post 2104 to wreck havoc on Mankind.
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
Posted Apr-12-2017 4:35 PM
Having the Engineers being Technologically not Advanced on Paradise, and having a Higher Race or indeed Higher Faction of Engineers, who visit those beings on Paradise now and again. Makes more sense as far as to WHY no Engineers came back to Destroy us afterwards.... especially after Prometheus....
By having those beings not being Technologically Advanced on Paradise means they have no means to simply destroy Davids ship and then carry on their attack on Earth.
I would assume those beings on Paradise are not even aware of who Mankind is or the Engineers on LV-223 was.
So it leaves it open to see these beings/Engineers in Flash Backs if future movies cover some Plot from the Past.
It also leaves it open to explore those above the Engineers and those beings on Paradise in a future movie, if these Hierarchy of beings or Creators have created Life across vast portions of the Galaxy and even other Galaxies.
Maybe they abandoned Paradise thousands of years ago, and those Hierarchy beings are now not anywhere within thousands of light years of Earth and so out of reaches of Mankind though-out the Franchise.
We also can not rule out if any Engineers are on the Juggernaught that David and Shaw took off in.
We was wrong!! soooo Wrong!!
Posted Apr-12-2017 6:05 PM
Great question Dark Nebula. And yes, bring on the Engineers as far as the story line content.
There is a good chance from what we have seen in Prometheus (and Alien: Covenant trailers) that the Engineers were reduced in numbers long ago.
It is very hard to know how many Engineers there were before the attack on LV-223, where other attacks of that kind happened, and how many were attacked on Paradise and elsewhere over time.
Those on LV-223 appeared to live more like a dedicated military populace opposed to a posh civilization.
How many different places (planets) were the Engineers attacked on during the LV-223 attack shown in Prometheus and how long did this attack last?
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