Theory: Engineers seek revenge against Humanity for THEIR creation and betrayal.1 Upvotes24 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
Look at the above image. Look at the expression on the Engineer's face. Ridley Scott is a very visually focused filmmaker, the camera purposely focuses on the Engineer's face at this moment in Prometheus and the Engineer was instructed to have a certain expression in his face. This expression does not convey anger, but empathy. A sympathetic response to the realization that Humans had created artificial life. The Engineer looks at David with both shock and sadness, as if he "knew" this day would come.
What if, like David, the Engineers were artificially created by HUMAN KIND. What if, Ancient Humans created the Engineers for the same reason we pursue AI robotics today - to make life easier and to get jobs done. My theory is this, based in part on comments made by BigDave in the recent news article showcasing the new Alien: Covenant set photos:
HUMANS are the direct kin of God, God's own chosen descendants who were made in his image. But, as Humans evolved and learned, they began to explore dangerous technologies, one of which was the true "FIRE OF THE GODS", the creation of Life.
And so, creating beings in THEIR own image like God before them, they created Engineers, to be used to build societies and to spread the Human Genome across the Universe.
Of course like primitive Humans, the Engineers saw their creators as gracious Gods and abided by their rules, doing as their creators commanded. This is of course until God saw what had become of his Human race, who's purpose was to tend to the Universe but had now turned it into their own empire, enslaving their own created for selfish purposes.
As a result, like anytime Mankind gets "out of Hand", God punished them, drove them out of Paradise and labeled the Engineers as soulless abominations, unworthy of a place in Heaven.
I believe the scenes depicted in the new set photos are of a flashback, when the Engineers were banished and punished. Though, like David, they felt cheated and like their creators had abandoned them. David even uses that terminology in Prometheus, asking Shaw if she felt like her God had abandoned her. It was all foreshadowing the Engineers and their past fate.
As a result, the Engineers fled to various corners of the Universe, to plan revenge against Humanity, who abandoned them in their time of need. To the Humans the Engineers were mere objects, like David. Their ploy of revenge would include unleashing a great Evil upon all of Humanity - the Alien. A beast forged in the darkest parts of the known Universe, a dark, soulless creation whose only mentality would he to destroy Humans and Human DNA (which is why the Engineers were never safe from its wrath either).
In the scene from Prometheus, pictured above, the Engineer sees David as a recurrence of Humanity's destiny - a process of History repeating itself. And so, realizes he must destroy it and all who came with it. He also realizes Humans on Earth have reached their next level of evolution.
Earth was not the only destination for the Engineers' payload. It was merely one of many planets housing Human life. The Engineers knew where they were because they were the ones that seeded them there.
It is this reason why David seems to reiterate the notion of created wishing ill upon their creators. Also why David attempts to transcend himself, feeling like a lesser life form and jealous of his Human creators. God saw Man as special. Man sees Man as special. Engineers and David viewed Man as special until they learned the truth and realized they were special to no one but themselves.
What do you all think?
Well, I don't know. It is hard for me to imagine primitive humans creating such a creature. Well thinking about some ancient alien theories, I can imagine the engineers and humans having interacted back then.
Maybe another Alien species (or God. Or maybe that is the same thing in this scenario.) came to Earth for some reason and made the engineers out of humans? They took human DNA and made more slaves, but bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, etc. I think that is more likely a scenario.
I don't know if adding another species to this equation will serve the movie/franchise well though. At least not in Covenant maybe.
But Chris, I do like your theory there and it could very well work, I just don't really see it happening. Like I said, I just have trouble imagining primitive humans creating the Engineers.
Not a map, an invitation
Ohhhh I just thought of something! What if there were humans in other places in the universe? What if humanity wasn't only on Earth, but they were born, created, etc. on many (or even a couple) planets/moons throughout the universe? So Chris's theory could be spot on, it just wasn't earthlings that created the Engineers.
Or maybe it was another Alien (not human) species as I wrote, so the Engineer (Bob, correct?) that realized David was not human realized the dynamic between him and humans and how it was to serve another species. Sorry for double reply if it occurs, I don't know why that is happening.
Not a map, an invitation
It is interesting how different people read differently into the same imagery - In the scene Chris is referencing, I have always inferred that the Engineer was disgusted with David. Disgusted because a lesser, artificial being was communicating with him in his native tongue. - an analogy would be your toaster talking to you and telling you in your tongue that the dog wants you to buy him a Ferrari because the dog feels he deserves it even though you got the dog earlier that same day.
An analogy would be your toaster talking to you and telling you in your tongue that the dog wants you to buy him a Ferrari because the dog feels he deserves it even though you got the dog earlier that same day.
If you look at the scene from the Engineers point of view, I think empathy is probably the last thing on his mind - having been woken after two thousand years sleep, all of his mates dead to the weapon he was meant to unleash on the little twerps who have just woke him up demanding answers and immortality like spoilt brats, through the tin man they created in their own image. Understandably he's disgusted and peeved!
@Chris my view of the scene is exactly the same as Gavin's.
If I may I would broaden this out to how I think A C will differ from Prom and the intended Prom 2 because it reflects on your re engineering of the back story.
A C will bring the characters forward and give us the kind of relationship Ridley conjured with A L I E N and the Martian, for me John Logan's late entrance is to deliver that sense of personality driven narrative.
In addition the mythos which they began constructing in Prometheus will now begin to harden with us coming to understand the symbolic and elliptical messages of the film more clearly. For that reason to offer inside out type explanations of the relationship between the Gods/Engineers/Mankind (your idea) or to show the broad sweep of the Engineers behaviour across the universe appears counter intuitive to the move from Prom 2 to A. C.
To deal with the creator creation parallax, the forbidden fruit, "Paradise Lost, crucially the fall" and hint at the matrix like (overview not movie) symbiotic relationship between the Engineers and Mankind then
1) Why, what and where the Zeno.
2) Weyland - Yutani and the Covenant Crew.
Feels to me about the right weight for a high profile tent pole movie.
I think your interpretation whilst highly imaginative would feel counter intuitive to what has been offered so far.
I hope that answer represents lively debate rather than is seen as to judgemental.
I'm not really sure how I think the Engineer truly felt. I never saw the look on Bob's face as empathy until Chris said it here. I thought he was angry and what not about humans showing up and then having something made by them speaking in the Engineer's language. I guess I still think that, but this post kind of makes sense (even if it is going away from some themes and arcs setup in Prometheus as Michelle said), so it got my mind running a bit.
And Michelle, I think you are really on point with how some of these themes are going to be payed out. Haha I really enjoy reading the responses you and BigDave post!
Not a map, an invitation
Well there is many ways this can be looked at, there is no one theory as its so vague and complex and has so many potential ways it could go...
I will first go with the Engineers Expression..
We are being led down a certain limited path with the Engineers, they are being watered down.... if we looked at the Sacrificial Scene of which we have not seen the Full one as there was Two Way Dialog between Elder and Sacrifice.
If we had the Full Engineers speaks Scene with Translations (Fassbender and Whyte had to learn page after page of Dialog, Whyte was dubbed over with Gibberish and Scenes Edited...)
The Full Scene of the Engineer finding Shaw on the Lifeboat...
They all added more Depth to the Engineer than being a Giant Humanoid Terminator... Here are things i noticed.
*Engineer was surprised to see Mankind.
*He was especially interested in Shaw even later.
*He had Sympathy for David.
But alas we are supposed to look at the Theatrical Release where as Lindeloff put it, the Engineer wakes up Groggy from Cryo Sleep, to find the Race that was supposed to had been destroyed have turned up and now i guess this Talking Toaster is now Asking him things and the Engineer just wants him to shut up and so pulls his head off.
But to me the Scene said more than that.... but we dont know what way they wish to send us with who these Engineers are and what role they have.
We could ask many things if we do look deeper at the full scenes...
Did the Engineers have Females, or created Females to Procreate and Got Punished and Neutered? Or did they never had Females... (but others in the Hierarchy be that on equal pane, above or below them have Females).
Where the Engineers to their Hierarchy as David is to us and so the Engineer was Sympathetic to him or did they find his creation blasphemous? But then why the look on the Engineers Face?
Here was my reading of the Scene taking into account full scene and logically putting a few bits in (If the Engineer understood Weylands last Comment or had it translated Bluntly but was cut from the scene).
The Engineer awakens, finds Humans have found the place of there LV-223 Outpost... and wanders how they found it.... he finds out that the Humans think they was invited by the Engineers. The Engineer said that they did not invite us and asked why are we there.... David then tells the Engineer Weylands Agenda after seeing Weyland order Shaw to be silenced to not get her Questions Answered.
The Engineer finds out Weyland is dying and wants the Engineer to grant him extra life... the Engineer is furious at such a claim and asked why should Weyland be given this Gift...... Weyland proceeds with his Speech and somehow the Engineers knows that Weyland created David in his own image as a Slave, and that now this makes Weyland a Creator and God and Gods should never die.
If the Engineers serve under a higher Race and are just as David is then maybe he can Sympathies with him, but ultimately the Engineer knows Mankind can get to LV-223 they have Creations (David) who can speak Engineer and Read their writings and use their Technology.
There is no way the Engineer can allow Mankind freedom to Travel the Galaxy using the Androids to use the Engineers Technology (or their creators) for the benefit of Mankind... and so Mankind must be stopped..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Yes thats maybe correct, it seemed that was the way they was going and like Prometheus it was a movie based on following a Plot.... but maybe it lacked the Narrative and connection to Characters that Alien did.
Maybe they want to change things to give us as you said time and time again, something that is more deeper than following a Plot....
I think they are going to tone down the Mythos/Creation elements but they have to show us in some way the connections but maybe they are done in a Narrative way where David explains it and then we go to a cut scene..
It would be like Prometheus and the one Cut that is out there where the Sacrificial Scene is not shown until latter... If we had this scene shown after Shaw shows Holloway the findings and how the DNA Matches after he comes back to the Room after being Spiked by David (which would then be the first time we see the Goo ingested).
Then we go to the Sacrificial Scene, after Shaw says they made us...... this Sacrificial Flash Back Scene would act as a Visual Evidence to back up perhaps Shaws findings..
I think something like this is what could be going on, and also the Xeno Scenes... who is to say these are shot in the time frame of Covenant and not the Past too?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Either way you look at the scenario the common theme of "created chasing creator" is evident. Yes, the Engineer was offended at the presence of the Prometheus crew, but likely also pissed off knowing that he overslept and now Mankind was transcending further than where they ought to be. We can all agree the payload the Engineer was stashing was destined for Earth. But that Correct had a lot of planets and systems displayed.
I still think there is some ancient struggle between Man and the Engineer popultion. The similarities and emotions David exhibits echo with that of the Engineer and thus, when the two come face to face, are not immediately engaged in battle, but for a moment are taken back and put off. The Engineer knows Humans are om the verge of becoming what their ancestors became. The Engineer race is all but extinct for all we know and are trying to either salvage what they can, or more likely, take Humanity down with them. The Universe is not safe while Mankind hold the mantle. The Engineers, like David, realize this. Like AI's, they see the flaws in our genetic makeup. They see what we're capable of and know we need to be stopped.
I see the Engineer as simply a significantly more advanced, biologically grown synthetic. No ability to reproduce, which could be why the destruction of Paradise was so significant. They are David and David is them. Just separated by thousands, perhaps even millions of years of evolution.
Ancient Humans, the original Adam and Eves of the Universe. Paradise was their garden of Eden and the forbidden fruit was knowledge of creation and the ability to do Godly things. It resonates all too well with the underlying messages throughout Prometheus.
Imagine the irony, the Space Jockey being one of those Ancient Humans, a relic from the great crusade between creators and created. A testament to what became of the original Human race and the plague it brought forth to the Universe. It would all come full circle. What a mind trip.
If only he had set his Alarm ;)
Dont mean to go off Topic... but i wonder if the Chest Busted Cryo Pods on the Juggernaught get clues, some have forgotten about that when looking at AC as far as Timeframe for the creation of Something and the Space Jockey... but our Chest Buster Friends could have been around for a long time...
Spaights? or Lindeloffs draft gave more detail to the Ghost Scene David saw, where he controlled the Speed of the Hollograms where the Engineers where Calm at First but then fast forwards to one in a rush with Panic on his Face and then he went to the Cryo-Pod.
Certainly something interesting had happened before BOB Went to Sleep... i wonder if this is something to be ignored.
I know Spaights draft the Engineer cursed the Humans for waking him up, saying they have killed him.. by that when he was in Cryo-Sleep what ever was inside him was going to remain Dormant, much like how David wanted to have Shaw put into Stasis to then extract the Organism when back home.... and if they (Shaw/Engineer Spaights draft) was not in Cryo-Sleep its only a matter of time before they get Chest Busted.
Maybe Engineers used get themselves infected and then have a C-Section to remove the Organism, and then get stitched back up, then off they go again to do it again... and are thus Pawns... One day they got fed up of this?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
In my opinion when the engineer was awoken he was surprised to see humans around because they were not destroyed 2000 years ago.
He ripped David's head off as a response that he doesn't give a shit what he heard because he wanted to resume the mission engineers failed to do 2000 years ago.
(If he did there are still some human colonies on other planets so he would be busy as hell).
In my opinion the engineer agenda is simmilar to Blade runner/matrix.
In blade runner humans created biorobotics called the replicants who have superior strenght and agility than their masters but are equal in intelligence.They are used as servants for colonizing other planets and other things idk.
In matrix humanity is grown and used as a battery by machines.While their bodies are in power plant their minds are connected to the matrix to fool them that they are living normal life.While other humans who have survived the war against the machines many years ago live deep below the ground and are fighting against the machines.
From my perspective,to shorten some things,engineers are servants to other humanoid beings who are growing them from giger looking machines and using them as slaves for seeding planets with life and other things.Xenos and xeno like creatures could be their sacred animals.
Simmilar how in the transformers film series in transformers 2 some soldier said "If god created us,then who created them?"
Then in transformers age of extinction it was revealed that the transformers were created by some beings like lockdown said.
"Where do you think you've come from?You think you were born?No,you were built.And your creators want you back.We all work for someone."
I've always been under the impression that Bob has some sort of sympathy with David. At first, he shows affection towards him and the look on his face tells me that he's thinking "what kind of creature is this?"
He only kicks off when Weylands security guy hits Shaw with the gun.
Has anyone ever thought that maybe Bob put himself into cryo sleep BEFORE the shit hit the fan 2000 years ago and therefore was completely oblivious to what had happened?
The poster was good though!
One of the difficulties with adjusting a script quite late on in a significant way is whilst the overall trajectory of the story may be better certain micro elements become clunky. In the Spaights version the three co pilots had been busted and so the uniqueness of the surviving Engineer is he did not get hugged at the same time and the gestation and lifecycle was delayed and he got into cro sleep in time. However in the Lindelof version we have to assume then entire fleet of croissants in the five terminals were catastrophically rendered inoperable by the death of all the pilots bar one from the pathogen outbreak vis a vis the exploding head.
How come the exception, only two options:-
1) A unique immunité from the pathogène bequeathed on him deliberately by the creator.
2) Your explanation.
I will come back to this because it links to "the brother" who within a 200 year period on a mission elsewhere got into trouble and landed on LV426.
"Actually he’s one of the group that had gone off and his cargo had gotten out of control,” because he was heading somewhere else and it got out of control and actually he had died in the process and that would be the story there. That ship happened to be a brother to the ship that you see that comes out of the ground at the end. They are roughly of the same period give or take a couple hundred years, right?"
This was Ridley's answer at a press conference to promote Prometheus. What he forgets to mention is that the brother ship was carrying canisters like his brothers and for some reason this Engineer was chest busted and produced a Queen then on to eggs, rather than simply explode a la LV223. The way he frames this is conjecture but for me it comes back to your supposition and characterises a crucial difference.
1) The LV223 Engineers bar one were destroyed by the pathogen reaction.
2) The LV426 Jockey produced a Queen or the cargo was different, which Ridley did not consider in his reply.
3) The remaining Engineer only produced a Queen following a full blown life cycle which included a female member of mankind.
This suggests to me that to reverse engineer the outcome of the LV426 Jockey there is a different story which remains untold.
If you believe the LV426 Jockey was completing the classic zeno life cycle then A L I E N Covenant with its what, why and how of the Zeno and its cycle will include within a coded answer, as to whether the Jockey lies in the future or the past. If the why and how is a thousands of years ago flash back then the fossilised nature of the S J was not misleading, if David real time is the project manager for the creation of the specific life cycle then it is much more likely in the future. To make it real time creation and then go back in time with the knowledge smells like str....e...t...ching to me and would create a host of other issues.
There are a lot of Problems when connecting the dots... that is because the dots are always being changed... their seems to be NO set A-Z Plan, things changed along the way and are changed over and over... the whole process made a bit of a mess and a bit of ambiguity because of it all.
I have studied it in depth and you just cant find one story/theory that fits all the clues... this is why the who concept has became so Ambiguous.
Where shall i start?
I will first start with Prometheus, and how the movie has been edited to change how we are to view the Engineers, the Full Uncut Version which we have not seen yet, not even in deleted Scenes... would have given a lot of answers... to the Agenda... but this has been toned down.
We are not being pushed to the Engineers as being not very nice towards us, and being pushed that something different to the Engineers are above them. Our Engineers are therefore.... Not Angry... but Jealous. Perhaps and this leads to Anger.
The Scene prior to cutting showed the Engineer was intrigued with Mankind, he was only Angered once he had seen the Selfish Actions of Weyland with no consideration for the rest of his Kind, this Old Man only wanted his Questions Answered, only his Agenda met and he was the one who was giving orders to David.
The Engineer saw that Mankind was not equal, what he saw was a Hierarchy that only Weyland (king) and his selfish Agenda mattered... Once the Engineer had noticed what Weyland Wanted.... this was to be granted some form of Eternal Life because he sees himself as God because like the Engineers, Weyland had also created Life in his Image and Gods should never die....
The Engineer then saw that he had to finish of the mission, but we have to ask why was he the only one to survive? One theory was Sabotage... and this indeed could have been partially correct.
But we have to now take the Engineers via what the Theatrical Cut and Ridleys comments suggest... and also those Elder Engineers and how frail they looked... maybe these would be wiped from Canon.
I will explain why the Sabotage plan may have been partially correct and why there is such a mess with the scene and connections that you have all recently tried to figure out.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
There is a better one but this is one i could find, its interesting why would the Surviving Engineer be classed as a Hero, and Survived... was he a Hero to the other Engineers... or a Hero as far as preventing the mission to destroy Mankind... maybe combined with his reaction in the Full Scenes, it could be that he prevented the Horrific Mission that was about to happen?
But alas... we are being shown the Engineers are simply not nice to us and disliked us, maybe we can find out in the next movie or two?
A interesting thing to remember as far as Plot Holes is.... Many sets and props where being built prior to Lindeloffs Re-Write.
So the Chest Busted Cryo-Pod Engineers Props could have been near finished before Lindeloffs drafts.. but they had started Production before Lindeloffs re-write.
So the Cryo-Chambers could have been done before and based on Spaights Draft.
In Spaights draft, all Engineers had been infected, but the Surviving Engineer had either got into his Cryo Pod before the others, or he tampered with the other Cryo-Pods or the others Malfunctioned. Dont forget Concept work on Spaights draft showed the Engineers to had been very similar to Space Jockey Suits, but this was changed at Production to being the same as we had in Prometheus.
The Engineer was awoken and angry because now he is no longer in Stasis the Infection would now take affect and he knew he would soon be Chest Busted a fate the other 3 had suffered.
Lindeloffs draft described the Ghost Scene and in more detail than the movie had, in his draft the Engineers where Calm but David fast forwards through the Hologram until.
"He EASES up on the control -- Bringing things back to NORMAL
SPEED. And instead of six fairly relaxed Engineers?
There is only ONE.
And he is clearly PANICKED. RUSHING ACROSS THE ROOM in FEAR,
leaving the main CONTROL AREA and into a CORRIDOR.
David, of course, FOLLOWS him towards"
So something went horribly wrong, and the Last Engineer in a panic went into Cryo-sleep.. but the whole scene Lindeloff Narrates to us could have taken hundreds of years, there was just no telling how many days, weeks, years David had fast forwarded through.
So these may gave us more of a hint, but we cant use them as Canon as far as Clues.... maybe they can help. but we are left to now see the Engineer as being super upset and Mankind and maybe he just Overslept and we dont get a explanation as to why only he survived or what happened to the others in that room but all evidence points to Chest Busters, yet the movie was trying to point us to a infection and exploding.
I find this a interesting image that was actually shot, and to me it appears our Engineers are in a bit of a rush.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Thanks Michelle for finding Ridleys exact quote and i am not sure if he did another, or this was the only one? I think he did make another similar one however, but i could be wrong...
But indeed it puts the Engineers and Space Jockeys as brothers and mission the same or part of it. and the time frame being within a few hundred years of the LV-223 Outbreak... is this prior or after who knows..
I will try and break down Ridleys Comment..
"Actually he’s one of the group that had gone off and his cargo had gotten out of control"
This with his other comments could imply the Cargo was Eggs and he got infected... but a latter interview Ridley proposed that something in the Cargo Hold had Evolved.
"because he was heading somewhere else and it got out of control and actually he had died in the process and that would be the story there"
Somewhere else? if the others where going to Earth, then where was he going? Paradise? or somewhere else?
"That ship happened to be a brother to the ship that you see that comes out of the ground at the end. They are roughly of the same period give or take a couple hundred years, right"
This does not have to mean the ships left hundreds of years apart, it could imply that the Ships are slightly different with different Cargos, that differed due to being a few hundred years... but it is likely and logically saying that the one ship had left within a few hundred years of the other.
The key word is when in other interview Ridley said something Evolved, and also with Alien Covenant something the Engineers had made, had been evolving.
Come to think of it i am sure Ridley said similar in another interview about the Space Jockey, where he said the event occurred within a few hundred years of the event that wiped off nearly all those Engineers on LV-223.
These clues could maybe hint that something had evolved on the Derelict and it left hundreds of years latter, maybe as LV-223 went into lock down... one more ship had its Pilot also in Cryo-Sleep but then he awoke hundreds of years latter and set off to where ever he was going, maybe he was unaware of how long he was Asleep for and unaware his Cargo had now evolved.
However as there is always counter clues to near every theory and with this one.. we have the Fresco and how Alien Xeno Eggs or similar where known to the Engineers prior to the Outbreak...
So maybe the Space Jockey was hundreds of years prior and his fellow Engineers ignored the warnings.. or another faction and then decided to reverse Engineer the Cargo into the Black Goo?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
As far as the event of the Space Jockey and Queen and Eggs, we still dont know 100% for sure yet... we dont know if the Eggs was there before... i think its a little odd that the Eggs are all placed in such a way and under that Protective Barrier Myst and for a Queen to had laid them.... but i also dont buy the Urns Evolved into Eggs idea either....
I hope there is a 3rd explanation but only time will tell for sure.
Indeed maybe the Engineers are Clones... The Source i had did kind of imply that David and Engineers are not to dissimilar. And also one Concept work showed like rows of chambers similar to the Matrix where people where kept in the Matrix to be used as Bio-Fuel... they claimed these similar looking Pods, had humanoids in them.... they latter said the was hard to make out but it seemed like a scene out of The 6th Day and Alien Resurrection and the Humanoids did not look fully developed and maybe like babies in the Womb.
Again i cant say if the Source was ever right, if we assume for one moment they are and bring in the Matrix theme they said the movies loosely follows... then maybe our Engineers are created in similar way and grown in these Pods for the Purpose of being used to the Agenda of who or what ever is above them... They are just tools, with a purpose... but then maybe some of them Rebelled against this Purpose. No longer wanting to be Slaves, for a set Purpose..
Maybe that Purpose is the Hierarchy role in procreation and so Engineers are used as simply seeding via Sacrificial means.... Or maybe there is some other Darker Agenda.... and as the source said some elements not used in Star Beast are included... maybe the Engineers are merely Sacrificial beings for some other purpose?
Maybe a group then thought creating Mankind would mean Mankind can now be used for that Purpose?
Who knows.. hopefully we shall find out such things in the next movie.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Is the Queen from Aliens thousands of years old? Was she aboard the LV426 derelict/Juggernaut and did she cause the accident? I can't imagine she was born at Hadley's Hope.
Were the Engineers on LV223 running from the Queen? Did they create her?
She might have boarded a Juggernaut on LV223....and the rest is history.
Not that I think Ridley is going use the Queen...But I think it would be a cool fanfic/graphic novel.
@BD and Chris
"The key word is when in other interview Ridley said something Evolved, and also with Alien Covenant something the Engineers had made, had been evolving".
I was rereading the "Naming of the Covenant" thread in the light of the recent images from the Quarry and also Ridley's remark about something that had been evolving on the planet, which BD had highlighted, and then reconsidered Chris's remarks about one Covenant potentially broken was connected to the releasing of the Zenomorph which was supposed to remain hidden/ quarantined.
If we take the view that Paradise Lost, the fall, the taking/harnessing of the forbidden fruit has led to a punishment of the Engineers and the dystopian images we have seen, then David's coming, with Shaw, may have led to the releasing of the evolving creature rather than its creation. After all we know from the mural and tomb that something akin to a zeno has already been achieved.
One of the theme's of Prometheus is David's amoral inquisitiveness. I do not think that will create the life cycle but lead to the release and probably further evolution of what should have remained hidden buried and frozen, by what ever evoked the terrible punishment on the fallen angels.
That David is "responsible" for unleashing hell on his creators places him, as others have speculated, in the same role towards mankind as the Engineers/Creators. Neither they or him will be constrained by their original directive, to serve, and instead they wish to be the gods.
If Ridley is going to lift the Space Jockey out of its narrative conundrum in future films, which makes sense, that was the key purpose of these pre equals, then the quarantining of this deadly cargo with its warning beacon represents an attempt, through sacrifice, to make good the Covenant of the Engineers, OR you leave it as a folly a curiosity, which hardly feels bucket list.
I am working on the assumption that the creators did punish the Engineers. Their wiping out on LV223, whether engineered by the creators or, not prevented mankind circa AD Zero from being wiped out, that maybe an evocation of the Noahic Covenant.
The idea that the creators may have been responsible for the pathogens final effect came out of something Caryn remarked on, that the green goo and green stone in the trailers did have an explanation which Ridley had yet to explain. For the entire population of LV223 to be wiped out appears as catastrophic as the scene in the quarry and could carry the same sense of punishment and retribution.
For some and A 5, that may appear too pretty but in A 5 we see the Engineers are no longer a threat to mankind but something more earth bound, Weyland-Yutani where directives and self service replace sacrifice and covenants and the move toward and the ascendancy of machine over man.
I really hope that the Engineers are not made by mankind but that they are their own species. To have them as a product of an experiment that mankind did would be lame even though some people might think that it would be a god idea. If you keep them as a result of mankind's doing they get less mysterious and I don't like that.
If you let them be their own species then you have a bigger amount of information to built from because then you could use your imagination and not be limited to what we as humans do. Remember that this is science fiction not pure science so to not have them as a product of a human experience would bring more potential to a more interesting sort of life form (the Engineers).
As far as the Weyland/David/Engineer scene is concerned I have read somewhere that they wake him up and David says:
- This man (Weyland) believes that you can give him more life
- Why does he want more life
- Because I created this robot so we are creators Gods and Gods never die
The Engineer gets mad and kills Weyland with David's head and continues his mission to try to erase mankind.
By the way the one that decided to not have subtitles to it when it obviously was an important part of the movie did a dumb decision (who ever that was).
I don´t know if this has been discussed but i had posted a while back my own theory towards Prometheus and the Engineers on Prometheus-Movie.com Forum and this is really the same thing as far as my gut goes
First off Ridley is a massive Android fanatic. You always see big references and debates among this in his movies and i guess in Prometheus even more so
Imagine not that humankind invented the engineers in like david 8 but that the engineers themselves invented them, like david is an invention of the humans and in their image. get the point?
why? maybe because the could ;-) or like in other movies and series, for example Stargate. They had the Asgard and they were clones cause they could not reproduce themselves otherwise anymore and slowly died out through degeneration like in real science.
So what if this is somehow tied to another. David 8 found himself superior to his creators, wo why shouldn´t the engineers feel the same to their creators and turn their backs on them as soon as they could. Must not be the right theory and anything is possible but it does mix beautifully together that there in that scene two creations from creators having a great twist to maybe be shown in Alien Covenant or not. I would be pleasantly suprised if they were artificial or at least different to the ones we see at the beginning of the movie where the sacrifice happens. Best resemblence to their difference is the looks they have. One is just plain and lean like a greek god and one is militant and bio-engineered with a suit. If now the fluid, that is an accelerant like in the Dark Horse comics and used to super enhance them is still open to debate but i guess it has multiple functions.
Imagine a race that can merge technology with bio structures and enhance them beyond our wildest dreams. That is a festival for the old HR Giger who would be so happy in seeing this happen. I guess all writers and makers involved in these stories have similar interests, theories and tendencies that are innertwined into the background and main plot of the story. Nitpicks that the more you watch the more you see
I could go on and on about different parts of the story and get deeper into the subject but i guess you guys get the picture
PS. who is to say they have any emotions or feelings just because the human race share the same gene. There is no scientific proof if when we see aliens or other races that they have them and could be more of an animal instinct or way other triggers that rocks their tragectory and thinking patterns. Does not mean intelligent beings have to be emotional.
Best theory was they are us from the future came back for revenge or change in the space time continuum
Hmmm. To the OP, yeah that would be an interesting twist, but I think most evidence points towards the ancient astronaut theory, which would mean they created us, not the other way around. Although the engineers could have certainly been created by someone else. So I don't think they are the "gods" here, just a link in the chain, same as us.
The look on "Bob's"(!) face. That one has me puzzled as well. It's like this dude wakes up, does a WTF?, looks at David, with something akin to affection, then becomes angry, and starts kicking everyone's ass. Man, that's such a smorgasbord of reactions; hard to make sense of it all.
So like wake up, orient, take in your surroundings; what's this? some humans!? One of them addresses him in his on tongue. Say what? Oh that's cute. But these assholes shouldn't even be here! Guess I'm gonna have to carry out my orders: destroy them.
From the final cut, that's what the scene looks like to me.
As to the relationship between "Bob" and David. That's a strange one indeed. Kinda the epitome of a love-hate relationship! But how would Bob have known David was an Android? Again, from the final cut, he shouldn't have any idea, well, until he tears his head off.
So to me, it was simply a matter of this dude speaking his language, and the connection that brought, until the actions of others broke the moment.
This again brings up the point of how do we interpret these events? Do we strictly go by what was presented to us, or do we use the other cuts/drafts/ideas, as seen from other sources. Because you obviously have other/alternate story lines competing for our attention here. Hard to make sense of it all!
By coincidence I watched the alternative and deleted scenes this morning. I do not see any denial in choosing to the nix them on the level we are discussing, they are either about pacing or qualitative cinematic issues not about story telling but they nearly all provide very powerful answers to questions raised on this forum. I will not deal with all of them but here are a few and the final one is pertinent to this thread.
The sacrificial scene
The sense he is the chosen one to bear this hideous death comes over more strongly that this is what engineers do, and the teardrop ship with some added seconds nonchalantly goes vertical and unceremoniously leaves "task accomplished" but the extra shots of the acolytes hideous disfiguration contrast with the DNA re organising after he decomposes. The fresh vibrant colours (absolutely no black) shout out this is a life affirming positive moment - ordained positive new life is on its way and the verdant lake and mountain finishes that notion perfectly. My guess is Ridders will use this inversely for Cov.
Milburn and our first Alien
This is a gorgeous scene reinforced by Shaw emphasising the botanist child like joy in meeting new life which is entirely quiescent and explains the concept of naivety when the Botanist interacts with the Hammerpede (we should also bear in mind modern man had no idea of the Zeno strain at that very moment).
It doesn't work cinematically but he is going A L I E N.
The Encounter with the Engineer
For me this is superb and much stronger and more involving than the film cut. So much happens here that explains much more clearly what is happening.
1) Weyland has a conversation with the Engineer where David acts as interpreter and suggest he and the Engineer are both creators E= Mankind Weyland = David. The Engineers response is to check Weyland's assertion and then show him what he thinks of his creation he rips his head off and aims to destroy all and complete his mission. He is asserting his superiority as the creator race. He is a curious about mankind's achievements and affronted at their curiosity. its very very simple they have got above themselves and he is more determined to slay them and put them in their place.
2) Shaw is once again in pain and doubles over (this maybe important next year) but asks her question his response is overwhelming and it is the same after the Juggernaut crashes to humiliate and destroy her.
Just as an aside their are two gorgeous scenes for Charlize which absolutely nail the idea as to whether she is a "……. robot".
I don't buy the time travel for any species but the engineer has an ability to sense David is a robot by touch like psychic. My first post, love this place! That green crystal has intrigued me to no end but..... it looks like the crystal fits in the upper head of that Zeno wall mural. Like it is from Lucifer or has regenerative, or alchemy powers. That oval bump in that head above the crucified xeno. Looks concave in some photos and convex in others. World of Warcraft think has some crystal that comes out of a forehead. Idk but that crystal has some shape inside it. Originally hoped it was the xeno DNA fossil like Jurassic park. Is the Furious Gods considered canon? Because there is a "Narration of Engineer" draft on screen that explains there lack of reproduction and the giant head belongs to the Leader sent to Lv 223 to study humans and DNA mysteries.????
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