Hello everybody, this is the forum member formerly known as Major Noob.
I was having login difficulties (oddly, right after I upgraded my iPhone, though the issue was across all my devices) and wound up with a new account. So now I am Aorta. Hi!
For those who may wonder, I refer to the Alien as the Morb after a fun debate some years ago about what to rename the Xeno, given that some of us object to the nomenclature applied by JC. No offense to anyone who prefers Xenomorph!
There's been much discussion over the years about the Morb's efficiency as a bio weapon, and it's a good point. Why go to such lengths when any culture that could produce such a thing could easily come up with any number of less baroque alternatives?
If we set aside the argument that an ancient, alien culture would do inscrutable things for inscrutable reasons, and apply terrestrial logic, one of the ideas that pops up is that of aesthetics, expressed via terrorism. That Morb biology isn't just about death, but suffering.
Perhaps the Morb's creators (or poachers, such as the case may be) stumbled upon something they proposed to manipulate and weaponize in the service of making a BIG impression on something else, maybe even their masters. Not just warfare, but bio terrorism. Maybe the Morb was meant to be an exotic, unstoppable form of revenge that even it's creators couldn't control?
This could be consonant with the themes of overreaching and the hazardous pursuit of power that runs through the entire franchise. In a deleted scene from Prometheus, the Engineer speaks to David when asked to provide immortality for Weyland, and it's response was translated as "Why?".
Maybe they know, too well, that in this universe death isn't the worst outcome?
AORTA - You make an extremely compelling argument! I can certainly see the Alien being implemented to inflict both physical and psychological terror - it is perfect for both roles. If I may ask, is the name Morb a derivative of "Morbid"? I have always wondered at that ever since reading the many posts you have presented over the years. :)
Hi Something Real-
I just like the way Morb sounds. It feels oddly correct (for my personal taste) and no, I never made the morbid connection but it fits!
We came up with a few more humorous names, like Macerator Oysterlips and The BIOLATOR. Xenomorph in itself is a great name but a few of us felt it was too married to the James Cameron view of things, which is a very cool view mind you but also very brash.
I think canon is a personal thing, especially when considering something as vast as the Alien universe. I really hadn't considered it until after Prometheus, but given how off the rails the Alien saga went, I'm pretty comfortable saying my personal canon is limited to Ridley's vision. So while I accept and enjoy Xenomorph, I also protest it with the Morb.
There is just an element of absolute cruelty to the Morb and it's kin, a sense of things going as wrong as they can possibly go, in terms of survival, but also in terms of fear and pain. It's just as bad as bad can be, right?
You can become an egg. You can dissolve. You can have worms in your eyes. You can be attacked by Space Tapirs. You can give birth to Mr. T. And I'm sure there's more. It's pure genius in terms of nightmarish suffering.
Think of the terrible methods of execution conceived here on Earth and the role imagination plays in the delivery and receipt of fear and pain, especially when the only cessation is death. That's the worst possible way to go. That's the Morb.
I also feel that the "alien" in Ridley Scott's vision was a far more terrifying and truly "alien" creature, than anything JC came up with.
The egg morph theory defies all earthly logic and it takes the term "parasite" to a whole other level.
In story I never considered the "Morb" (Never used the term, but I like it :)) to be a created bio weapon.
The idea was of course introduced within the context of Prometheus, but things might actually be quite different.
It's Janek who guesses that the black ooze might be a bio weapon, and that the ruin on LV-224 might have been a bio lab facility. But how sure can we really be about this ?
To the "engineers" we see in the beginning of the movie, a variation of this black ooze had a very profound spiritual meaning, as it was their "tool" for seeding DNA.
Within the context of Prometheus nobody on the ship knows the exact nature of things, and I guess that might even be the point.
I think one of the themes Prometheus tried to explore, was that one must always be careful with their preconceived notions about something, cause the truth might actually be quite different.
Hi Charza pleased to meet you!
I agree on all counts, it seems that the black liquid is quite versatile, although the application at the beginning of Prometheus seems to be the exception, not the rule? The majority of examples of the liquid in action result in some form of hostility, and in all instances, death.
I felt some care was taken to distance the liquid in the sacrifice from the liquid in the ampules. Are they separate variants of the same thing? Were they all engineered, or is one a naturally occurring substance?
Ridley is on record saying he felt the Derelict was a battle vehicle, although Ridley does kind of say whatever he wants. But that idea was repeated in Prometheus, so I'm just riffing off of that. I do believe though that the Morb as punishment has more sinister possibilities than the Morb as weapon, though!
An acolyte accompanied by Elders from the Teardrop ship ingests the catalyser which breaks down his DNA and by making the sacrifice. where he did, the catalyser will pass quickly into this new world and create life. A consensual act of privilege.
The Black Goo.
Is kept in a military installation. It gets into the supply chain and destroys all but one engineer. When it comes into contact with life it doesn't immediately break it down it embarks on a steroid inducing growth spurt and re engineers its target without breaking it down Worms, Fifield, Charlie, engineer head. The first two echoing brutal visual images which lead down to reproduction without morality or consensual involvement.This does not suggest the spiritual sacrifice of the acolyte fulfilling his destiny but deeply invasive pain inducing cycles.
The zeno lifecycle is degrading full of suffering and retribution on the victim. Whoever created this particular life cycle wishes mankind to suffer and be put in its place whereas the Bomber on LV223 with its deadly payload would simply destroy in order to create not so invasive or personal but a simple starting again.
Even the engineers who had created the steroid version of the black goo simply broke down rather than transformed. Reintroducing the human female reproductive strain triggered a life cycle, which they had experimented with, but what led to Mr T was Ms Shaw, without her Charlie would simply have broken down not transform. The worm, fifield and charlie were like "the dog that had its day" they were not going anywhere. To create a deacon or zeno needs more than black goo, the goo attacks and destroys but with the right DNA and victim will move through a horribly painful journey of suffering for the target and create something which will very deliberately turn on other targets re producing the life cycle over and over again.
The zeno cycle looks like it was designed by some one less looking for industrial genocide but highly personal lingering death and humiliation for each individual and at the end of suffering create the perfect bio mechaniod fusing both human and robotic mechanistic characteristics. hmm who might act as god in that creation a kind of school experiment ?
For me the sacrificial goo is a catalyser it breaks down the building blocks of life and begins the pattern whereas the black goo destroys and needs an agent of reproduction in the chain to create. Maybe that was part of the Engineers original LV223 fall, they were offered a short cut to an improvement but where duped the steroid was a fake they created a Deacon saw the error of their ways and buried it in the molton rock tomb but to late.
A fate worse than death, absolutely. I feel you've hit the nail on the head Noom/Aorta! I think the Alien itself was a best kept secret by our Gods / creators - not the Engineers, but those who created the Engineers. The galaxy's Pandora's Box, if you will. Why it was created in the first place is a mystery. Perhaps it was a result of a free radical? A mutation or a process of randomization? Like computers and binary code, there are always unexpected processes which occur. DNA and the evolution of life, being fathered by these similar processes, perhaps the Alien / Morb in your case, was a random free radical produced in the farthest reaches of the Universe, unbeknownst to the God(s).
When discovered by Engineers, like the Fire stolen by Prometheus to put Man on equal footing with their Gods, the Engineers saw this as a means to level their status with their creators?
I think David's comment of "Doesn't everyone want their parents dead?" echos this underlying message.
I think absolutely right, the Alien, or whatever it was engineered from was intended to make a statement and to transcend its masters past the level of their own masters. But, as we saw in the flashback scene of Prometheus, the technology and power present within the Alien DNA was a risky venture - one that not even the Engineers could grasp a hold of.
Great topic by the way!
@ Chris I am completely with you on the how. This to me is the central story of the Engineers they are the fallen angels of Paradise Lost
"Favour'd of Heav'n so highly, to fall off
From thir Creator, and transgress his Will
For one restraint, Lords of the World besides?
Who first seduc'd them to that foul revolt?"
This also resonates for me as the breaking of the original Covenant between the creator and the engineers.
I hope David will put this on the page and explain from his amoral perspective this part of the Engineers history though he may take it as a sign to pursue the same ambitions. Indeed one can sense from his asides in Prometheus he already understands a great deal more about the Engineers intentions and what happened than he shared. What he did "surmise" was certainly correct. Now of course on arrival at Paradise he will add to that knowledge the reaction of the Engineer to his artificiality.
Yes its hinted that the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon on more than a number of occasions... We dont know the Origins and Alien left us wondering... but we was left with the Space Jockey was either.
1) Carrying a Deadly Cargo used for Bio-Weapon.
2) Carrying something it had came across to experiment on.
I think we need to look at the Engineers, we see they are used to seed life, they may most likely had came back to further evolve us and teach us stuff.
We see the Engineers may have created and re-engineered many kinds of life, always tinkering with what they create.... But did they create, or was they Tools for Creation... did they create Mankind without the consent of their creators?
Who knows, but i think we need to look into connections between the Ancient Astronaut Space Creators Scenario that Prometheus touched upon and its connections to all religions and Fables and Mythos.
What if we was created without the consent of those who created the Engineers? Or at least thought stuff that was not intended for us.
Various Mythos and Religious References can refer to Mankind being created for a reason... such as the Sumerian account where we was created to replace a lower cast of Godlike beings called the Igigi who carried out the labor for the Annunaki Gods, when the Igigi Rebelled Mankind was created to replace them.
The Bible does similar with Mankind replacing the Angels/Fallen Angels.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
If we take a look at the Prometheus Mythos then i think this maybe holds the key!
You said Punishment? The Xeno was Punishment and i agree... but was it for us for the Fallen Angels or Rebellious?
We need to look at who the Fallen Angels, or Betraying Prometheus was in context to God or the Top of the Hierarchy rather than seen as Evil.
Was Lucifer Evil? what was his Sin? Apart from seeing why he should not be made to be in superior and subservient to God... Satan was viewing God as maybe David 8 was Mankind....
Satan basically had enough of living under a strict Tyrany under God, and he betrayed God, he wanted to rule for himself and allow fellow Angels to see that they can be free and have freedom to do things banned by God. It could be said that persuading Adam and Eve to eat from the Forbidden Fruit opened their eyes..
The same thing could be said with Prometheus and his actions against his fellow Titans, allowing Zeus and the Olympians to reign and then also his betrayal against Zeus in support of Mankind.
So what i am saying is what if a group of Engineers created us when we was not supposed to had been, or they upgraded us and tought us forbiden knowledge.
Maybe the Engineers were used as a Tool of creation and one time they decided to use this Tool to create something of their own that can worship and serve them... like how Mankind has done so with David.
For this... a group of Engineers or their leader was to be punished just like Prometheus was when tied to the Rock... to have his liver ate by a Eagle every day.
This image of Prometheus and his Punishment is what the Prometheus Fresco reminds me of the most.
What if the Engineers who rebelled or did something against the wishes of their other fellow Engineers or Hierarchy sent down a Punishment... this Punishment then led to these Engineers using the Sacrificial Goo and their Genetic Engineer knowledge to then create something new to then Punish those who tried to Punish them?
A Re-engineering of the Bio Weapon sent to Punish the wayward Engineers?
This is one of the theories that i have that i am more inclined to follow.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Goo at the start of Prometheus Breaks down the Targets DNA, this broken down Material Forms a new Substance that carries the Targets DNA within a Mutagen or Parasite that then Evolves life it comes into contact with and spreads the Targets DNA into the cells of any life form that comes into contact with this Mutagen.
If the Engineer had stood in a chamber like a Shower Cubical and his broken down material was washed down into a drain and collected into Jars.
Would then pouring these Jars into a River not cause the same effect as we saw at the start of Prometheus?
Thus the Black Goo is simply a Organism related to the Xeno that was Sacrificed to use its DNA to seed Worlds rather than the Engineers.
I think the Engineers came across something and a result of something that created something they found interesting and they continued to experiment on this until they had obtained Perfection and this being the Deacon in the Mural..
The Engineers then wanted to use its DNA to seed Worlds rather than the Engineers.
This would explain the Mural, its pose is as a Sacrifice if you read Spaights draft you would see the intended connections as remember the ideas where his.. well they was evident in his draft.... Replace Goo with Scarabs and it make sense.
Maybe the Creature they came across that allowed this, that caused something they saw as Perfect could maybe had first intended to had been a Weapon Against their creators?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
As far as the Egg Morphing i think this was a more disturbing way of Procreation but as it was dropped from Alien Theatrical then Cameron just had freedom to explain the Eggs his way...
We dont know the Origins yet... Giger had the idea the Egg Silo later converted to Cargo Hold actually produced the Eggs itself.
Cameron Gave us the Queen...
But if we go back to Alien DC then i think it fits in as far as the Egg Morph Scene being the way to create a Queen.. i have covered in detail before why this made perfect sense...
If this was not the case... then why did the Alien not capture Lambert and Parker, then we would have seen either 2X Eggs and 2X Hosts for 2 new Xenos to join the one on board?
or why not create 4X Eggs so that salvage mission can get infected... then we have the Egg Morph Size Difference, do they shrink down in size?
So to me having it be a Queen makes sense... Dallas gets infected by a Queen Egg Morph Face Huger, we get a Queen who then can fill the Nostramo full of Eggs and job done..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I agree that the Engineers were likely created to do hazardous work for some higher entity. Maybe the Space Jockeys? And to do what? Possibly, they were created specifically to deal with the Morb, and the liquid it produces?
I like the idea that the liquid comes from the Morb, and it was a distilled version of that that was headed to Earth. I think the ampules were the result of refinement, that eggs were too volatile, so the ampules are like Morb bombs. But was it Morb producing liquid, or Upgrade producing liquid? This stuff is bending my mind.
With the Morb and the liquid, it almost becomes a chicken or the egg question.
The punishment aspect seems over the top for use on humans, and especially now having seen Mr. T, I imagine it was meant for something much bigger than humans. Maybe we were meant to be a very remote testing ground, to be observed before we had tech to broadcast our fate. It could be that in their reality things happen in a scale of time unfathomable to a human. When the Cryo Engineer went to sleep, we were still quite primitive. Then it wakes up and there we are standing around in spacesuits with a cocky android.
Anyway, it might be that an upgrade was on the way. What if the Engineers are just sexless tools, like David. And are much smarter than their masters, like David. And they wanted to create a race of themselves that could reproduce. And Morb Juice enabled them to pursue these ideas. And they were caught. And lost control of their little facility.
The Morb really is like a plague, and I'd like to see it not so easily killed as it was in Aliens. And I'd like to see attempts to kill it rewarded with buckets of acid.
This is a very interesting discussion it reminds me of studying text at school and finding the big themes and meanings in the text.
Caryn is very strong on applying existing myth, which can tell us so much about us, and refracting that across possible solutions.
BD you obviously have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the detail and also refreshingly think outside the box both in terms of solutions and the morality we are being offered.
I am a completer finisher who likes to consider things carefully, not dismiss anything, and then come to a conclusion, which can be wrong. I tend not to sit on the fence. Taking all that into account.
The visuals at the beginning of the film suggests a benign consensual sacrificial act. For me it communicates an intended rather than rebellious act. The design of the teardrop ship suggests benign power. I can not make that a wrong act in my mind.
The Head Room
This suggests to me a place of cult worship a room which carries dangers which become unstable. The Engineer Life Cycle, the christ like mural and the tomb of the deacon suggest glorification of achievement and worship by creations (monsters) of the creators (the Dark Angels). Quite clearly the Black Goo lead to the dark angels destruction which suggest they were playing with fire and it turned around and destroyed all but one. That does not feel like an attended part of Gods creation plan except in the sense that God would know that by playing/stealing fire would lead to self destruction.
At the time of Prometheus the story makers (Riders,Lindelof) intended us to understand the Black Goo in "vases" where intended for earth. When the engineer woke and discovered mankind could travel and create synthetics that did not change his mind he was ready to go. Why Elizabeths question ? The answer is clearly stated by David because you can. From all of Big Dave's analysis "the because you can" was going to be explained by the LV233 engineers view that you can keep on starting again refining and improving. However what they were handed and began using to lead to the Deacon represented a fall outside of God's plan. How was the zeno element to the black goo introduced, by theft from God, by dark angels experiments we can only guess.
We have not seen other than allusions on the mural the small refined face hugger that was contained in the LV426 Egg. We have not seen the Zeno that was created by introducing a human host victim of the face hugger. We do not know why that was created or how but I take it from Ridley thats in the movie. The three key ingredients in that soup making are :
1) Black Goo on the incoming croissant ship.
2) David and Shaw.
3) Something David may find on Paradise.
I think what David will find on Paradise is the rest of the Engineer story (as much as we need to know to understand) it may have happened, he may cause it. There are other allusions quoted by BD that their coming to Paradise triggers the Zeno so my view is this movie triggers the particular Zeno life cyle and leads us toward the back end of A L I E N.
"so the ampules are like Morb bombs. But was it Morb producing liquid"
This was the one theory that i also leaning towards, that the Xeno was a deadly weapon and so they then re-weaponized it to make a more effective way to deploy and destroy.
i think it depends on the true purpose of the Xenomorph and what the True End Game of the Black Goo would be. We have little details to go on, apart from what we see in the movies.
This is what we see.
*Eggs, they spawn the Xenomorph that then goes around killing off and capturing lifeforms to use in its Procreation cycle... which ever movie you take your preference with or all... Be it the Organism goes around and Egg Morphs some hosts to carry on the seed and capture some hosts to become the incubators for this seed. OR some of the Eggs give rise to a Queen that then can lay more Eggs.
The end result once all life is eradicated we are left with a number of Eggs and a number or Xenomorphs, if the Xenomorphs have a limited life span, and Eggs can go into a Hibernation and survive for a longer time this would make a Good Bio Weapon.
It would have been more Perfect as a Bio Weapon if the Xenomorphs only lived a few days and only Egg Morphed Victims.
*Black Goo , We see this Bio-Weapon will mutate and evolve life to take on Xeno DNA, each Organism infected will have its DNA rewritten with Xeno DNA but it would keep and Evolve the Organisms best traits and keep its traits that support its Habitat.
The end game we dont know, the life span of these Xeno Organisms we dont know... if they have short life span, then eventually all infected life would be eradicated this would be ideal as a clean up Weapon and far better than the Egg Xenomorphs
But if the Goo process, leads to Organisms that can procreate as it creates Hybrids then this would leave a World inhabitable well a world with various Dangerous Life Forms.... unless they procreate to leave Eggs of each kind of Hybrid and then die out... but Eggs remain.
Looking at both Methods as shown in the movies, then the Urns would be easier to transport and drop off on a World... can we assume dropping Eggs from height wont damage the Organism? The Goo with safety protocols would be safer to store and use and offer a better more far spread way of spreading Death, but all that happens is Life is replaced with more Aggressive variants of themselves.
The application and use of the Goo is easier and safer, but the end result is maybe less suitable unless all Xeno DNA infected life is infected with a Virus that kills the Organisms off over a period of time.. otherwise the use for a CLEAN UP would be not as ideal with the Goo... if they use is to simply DESTROY like dropping lots of Nukes on a Country so then the devastated land can not be used by anyone... Then the Black Goo Wins Hands Down.
But we dont know the End Game of the Agenda for dropping such a Weapon on a world... Depend on that Agenda would then determine which Bio-Weapon was the best.. but we dont know the End Game of what happens at the end of each Bio Weapon.
I.e would a Xeno infested world just be overtaken by Xenomorphs who can keep procreating? But then if a Host is needed eventually the Xenos would die out how long this takes depends on how long it takes to destroy all life on the Planet and once there are no more Hosts then its how long the Xeno's Life Span is.
We dont know for sure.... But Ridley did say or was it Cameron? That the Xenomorph had a limited Life Span.
Once we determine all the above, we can then make a educated guess as to why this kind of Warfare would be used.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
When looking at the Mural and Frescos and Davids comments, i cant help but think there is more of a Agenda and use than simply destruction of a world... certainly as far as the Black Goo...
So my other theory comes into play, that the Engineers was using the Sacrificial Goo and Xeno DNA to make something to create Life that has Xeno DNA, well a Deacons as they may have seen the Perfectly created Deacon after many trails and errors and experiments as then being the more PERFECT base Organism to seed a World rather than ENGINEER DNA.
But again we dont know if there is more to it than that...
The basic Idea would be a Bio-Weapon in which case the Xeno Eggs if the Xeno has a limited life Span and each small area can only have one Queen (maybe pheromones are given off over a certain radius) so in effect a HIVE could be a large area say 2km Radius?
This would mean only a limited number of Queens, so when all the Xenos are dead, and all that remains is Eggs then the Engineers just need to then collect the Eggs and pacify or kill the Queens.
This would be the more simple idea...
But we dont know if there is a bigger Agenda... which i will discus next.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
What if the creators of the Engineers use the Engineers as Hosts for the Xenos for some reason... Their creators created or obtained the Xeno and Sacrificial Go
Engineers was created and they was used as Tools which included being Xeno Hosts... The Engineers are then in effect like the Igigi from the Annunaki tales..
But what if the Engineers then decided to create Mankind or this was done with consent of the Engineers creators or Hierarchy, to create another Race that would then replace the Engineers as being the Hosts for the Xenomorph?
Maybe some Engineers then started to pity Mankind and our use as a Tools, and taught us knowledge and decided to have us Worship them... This greatly offended the Hierarchy and a War broke out?
The main flaw with this idea, is we can assume the Sacrificial Scene took years to create Mankind as a End Product...
Spaights was more simple, his was that the Sacrifical Goo led to infecting a Early Primate to Evolve them into Mankind.... as opposed to the Prometheus scene which implied Hundreds/Thousand of Millions of years to reach Mankind instead Tens/Hundreds of Thousands that Spaights draft showed.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Yes this is a big theme in the movie, in order to create one must first destroy and Sacrifice seems a key role... The Engineers at the start of the movie were commiting a Benevolent Act... Ridley comfirmed this... the whole movie had them in a more Benevolent Role but the Edit of the movie and removal of Scenes depicted them as more sinsiter..... Ridley now says they are not a Benevolent Race.
But while the Sacrificial Scene may have been Benevolent, it may only had been Benevolent to their Agenda... the Scene was about a Sacrifice that would have Greater Good for the Engineers.
The LV-223 Engineers or how Ridley called those Shaw would meet as being non Benevolent may indeed be regarding towards us but not their own.... when we breed Chickens for use for Eggs and Meat its for a Greater Good for Mankind as a cheap source of Food are we being Evil by doing that? But if you was the Chickens then its not exactly a Benevolent Action towards them.
The Head Room
This is the ambiguous part, was the Head a symbol of pride of what they can achieve so the head was to show the Engineers are Gods?
Was it form of a Trap.... to coincide with the Star Map?
We dont know how it all fits in, Star Map a Warning? a Invitation... the Last Engineer seemed to imply we was not invited to the Place... so maybe even the Trap idea was wrong..
So was the Star Map a Warning... or simply a way the Ancient Engineers said we are Gods, this is where we are from....? Thinking Mankind would never be able to travel to that place...
But again the Last Engineer said they are not from LV-223 either...
This to me means the Star Map was either to show..
A) a Warning by some Engineers about that place... i.e dont ever go there.
B) This is where you came from..... in which case LV-223 is like a Green House/Nursery where they first experiment with Life and once they are pleased with the results they then Seed them in the Garden that is Earth.
Something happened, and the Engineers who taken control over LV-223 started to experiment with something else to replace Mankind with.
Maybe it was a invitation, that once we was ready we would be able to go to LV-223 which could be the Garden of Eden?
But something we had done, had made some of the Engineers change this place to a place to create Death and not Life.
We really cant be 100% sure what the connection is, at face value its ambiguous and there is no answers. all we have is really the following.
*Is not the Place the Engineers came from.
*it is not a place we was invited to or ever supposed to arrive at.
*It is a place these Engineers were creating something Horrific a Bio-Weapons Facility on a World that was not on the Engineers Door Step.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Its only taking in the comments by Ridley, and connections to Mythos of the Greeks and other Ancient Cultures God Fables.... that maybe we can get more clues?
But are we supposed to follow these clues? I think they intended to take us down this path, but are now going for a more simple explanation as covered in my previous few posts.
As far as the Process of the Xeno, this is ambiguous too and everyone has their own views, some clues did point to the Xenomorph being known to the Engineers/Space Jockey for a long long time.
The Croissant Ships have been around for Thousands of years... Ridley said the Engineers Technology may be Millions of years old.. but is this the Croissant Ships and Space Jockey Bio-Tech and when did this all start? We know at least over 2000 years ago...
The Teardrop Ships are Millions of years old, if Ridley is implying a similar scene to the Sacrificial one had taken place on Earth to either Kick Start life... or to Kick Start Complex Life from Basic Life... which means those Teardrops and Cloaked Engineers had been around for many hundreds of Millions of years and maybe even over a Billion.
I have my theories on the Xeno, and that the Goo is something different and the Black Goo on LV-223 is just the same mixing of Sacrificial Goo with Life to make a Bio-Former Mutagen to Spread DNA across a Planet...
Sacrificial Scene = Engineer Bio-Former Mutagen dispersed into the Air and Lake...
LV-223 Urns = Xenomorph Bio-Former Mutagen contained in Urns to disperse onto Worlds to upgrade life to Xeno DNA....
We dont know yet if the Goo came from the Xeno, or some Organism related to it... by Goo i mean the mixed stuff in the Urns...
I would assume the Engineers was re-engineering something and experimenting on various applications of its DNA to create the Deacon.... this theory would be thrown out the window if we are to ignore the Deacon Mural apart from the Deacon at the center and to Ignore the Frescos.
Ridley however has suggested that Alien Covenant will start the seeds to Why, When and How as far as the Xeno but would take at least 2 movies to get to Alien and the Space Jockey.
He also said we would find out why its is Bio-Mechanical which implies something on Paradise is the cause of that... but its that with regards to a Timeframe post David and Shaw leaving LV-223?
Who knows.... all clues prior to AC Synopsis sugested to me the Derelict had been on LV-223 for at least Hundreds of years, most likely a few thousand and prior to AC Synopsis this seemed to be the case Ridley had stated. Also that the Space Jockey was a Engineer or related Being.... and not Human or Android.
But alas... we dont know if they are changing this idea.. its sad to see... but then Michael Biehn did say Alien Covenant was set Thousands of years before Aliens... or so thats how it was explained to him.
I cant see him making this up... he must have been told something was set thousands of years ago and it makes sense...
But what we cant rule out is if Covenant will show us Flash Backs... David could narrate stuff to us and we get a Flash Back set thousands of years ago that show How and Why the Xeno or Biology was created.
Another way would be if David somehow traveled back in time to play his role in the events...This is very Terminator Genesys and if so i hope its not a means that is easy to do... but just a one off event?
But we dont know whats going to happen, but i would be very disappointed to find out that a event post Alien Covenant and 2104 happens over two movies, feature Xenomorphs and end up with David or another Android or Shaw or Daniels being the Space Jockey.
And the events of these Two movies AC and its at least one sequel lead to over 18 years to the Derelict....
Every piece of evidence and comment within the movies, Ridley, O'Bannon and Weyland Viral Site all point to the Derelict and that Signal being there for a long time...
But who knows.... by 2020 i think we should have all the Answers..
The source seemed to be pointing towards the Xenomorph (or its origins) being Ancient and David 8 creating something new but related.
Most are now assuming the Xeno is Bio-Mechanical because of David 8 somehow...... but dont forget the Derelict and Space Jockey and to a degree Engineers Space Jockey Suits and Ships are also Bio-Mechanical i think their is a connection between the 1) Croissant Ships and LV-223 Engineers/Space Jockey and the 2) Xenomorph/Origins one must come from the other but which way we dont know.... or 3) they both came from another source at some point in time.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Major Noob! sorry Aorta, haha great to have you back on the boards!
There has always been much more to explore with regards to the Morb and it's nightmarish biology.
"The Morb really is like a plague, and I'd like to see it not so easily killed as it was in Aliens. And I'd like to see attempts to kill it rewarded with buckets of acid."
Amen to that! Great topic and very interesting contributions from everyone.
ps I hope we get another look at the brilliantly trippy Noobernaut ;)
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
@BD firstly I really think your series of posts pull it altogether and I personally do not see any flaws in your interpretations. I think on the past I am with you on the "facts", as regards the speculation on the past to take just one we cannot be sure of the precise relationship between the Engineers and the Gods. I think their gardening was sanctified but I think their subsequent reinvention's with the Black Goo with its "zeno"strain represented a fall and their actions of re-creation was not sanctified but that is because my personal faith is the Gods are ultimately benign and at the end we will all be restored after finding our own wisdom as a species, so thats a projection of my personal faith into the mythos Sir Ridley is creating.
As to the future and summer 2017 and what it will reveal. The amoral David is coming with the Goo, a negative history with the Engineers, and will break faith with Shaw. My guess right now is he discovers a broken Paradise which he can profit from. For him alone to overcome a thriving Engineer population is narratively complicated. For him to gradually reveal what he found a broken dangerous world and how he "perfected" it and played God ending with the specific Zeno cycle that we know seems likely. That to use your other analysis is Zeno/Engineer rather than Engineer/Zeno.
For the actual Zeno we know and hate to be in the past then David has to explain its origins from the deep past. That echoes that first AVP thing and for me feels repetitive.
I would rather he allude to the Engineers Fall and the creation or theft of the zeno as a strain, which had outcomes, the Deacon, but he then acting as God King turns on his creators (the other big theme we all agree with) and adds mankind into the lifecyle through Shaw and finally our incoming crew.
This is one of those items which looks like a plot hole. When the cave drawings where etched the Engineers were all powerful and we were pre history. I think they were simply saying this is where they came from and showing their superiority but the ancients did read the stars and this was simple reference. Shaws hubris was to assume that once we had the means we were to go visit putting 2 and 2 together and making 6.
In Prom. 2 we might have found early advanced mankind had visited LV223, before being redacted but from all you say thats off the plot now and its more linear and literal. I just have a feeling we do not do time travel the one argument against that which is compelling is the sequel from Officer Ripley maybe thats explained by time travel lets go back and resolve the bitch once and for all and that ability to travel through time is leant to the much later narrative.
Hello thank you it's great to be back!
You know there was so much subtext in that vehicle alone. Ridley took every opportunity to mess with our heads in its presentation.
At first glance it's a basic flying saucer, a nod to vintage science fiction and a foreshadowing of the entirety of Prometheus being an homage to the golden age.
Then there's the fact that it can't sit still, it's sliding around on a cushion of energy and once you see it you can't unsee it, it's restlessness is disturbing.
It's also a great distance from the Engineer. Did it drop him off and move on to observe from a safe distance? Was he teleported there? It's epic and creepy. Already we're being told that there's as much information in what's unseen as there is in what's on view.
Then, as the Engineer drinks the liquid, the vehicle becomes erect. And seems to change shape, into a massive seed. So simple, subtle, scary, funny and brilliant all at once. This is about actions beyond human comprehension. About nothing being as it seems.
Then it floats away. They don't even stick around to observe his fate. So, so cold. I love too how you see it's arrival from the vehicles POV. Anyone else would've given you one money shot after another showing it off.
That scene is pure economy, everything that wasn't needed was excised from it. No elders. No dialogue. No explanation. All you have to do is let it sink in, and it reveals itself to you, a brilliant little silent movie that rewards deeper consideration.
It seems that flashbacks may be necessary to tell the story moving forward. If so, I hope they do it this way, as a prologue. And with no dialogue, just a quick, elegant vignette. If there are to be Space Jockeys (one can hope) , I imagine there would be no other way to express the surreal horror of their reality.
There's a lot of parallels between the story beats of Alien and Prometheus, though in Alien there was more resolution, it being a self contained story.
In Alien, our heroes responded to a signal, believing it was an invitation only to discover it was a warning. With so much of Prometheus paying homage to classic concepts of science fiction in general and the Alien universe in particular, it's likely that the cave paintings were a warning. Shaw basically confirms this in a roundabout way, rather than straight exposition: "We were so wrong"...
"That scene is pure economy, everything that wasn't needed was excised from it. No elders. No dialogue. No explanation. All you have to do is let it sink in, and it reveals itself to you, a brilliant little silent movie that rewards deeper consideration.
It seems that flashbacks may be necessary to tell the story moving forward. If so, I hope they do it this way, as a prologue. And with no dialogue, just a quick, elegant vignette. If there are to be Space Jockeys (one can hope) , I imagine there would be no other way to express the surreal horror of their reality".
Without wishing to patronise you this sums up perfectly the dichotomy for Ridley Scott in the reaction to Prometheus. Like you and a couple of friends who have discussed this in detail we love the films for the kind of film making you describe and I hope that elements of A C will retain the same economy but I am sure you are aware that many find the opening scene confusing.
As an example I for one do not mind if the Gods relationship with the Engineers remains enigmatic and mysterious BUT that we see explained the history of the Zeno strain and how the life cycle we see in A L I E N came about.
On the question of Shaw and we were so wrong, for me I connect that desire to explore and find out the consequences as yet another example of "Playing with fire". Peter Weyland's vain glorious attempt for immortality and Elizabeth's Shaw's search for Paradise were part of the same incautiousness and hubris neither were attempting to do this to enrich mankind but they were on the same road trip "playing with fire". Shaw's journey on the croissant to Paradise with David is an extension of that incautiousness and the fact that she will "not remain the same" as a result of that decision seems appropriate to me. If in the end radically transformed she becomes the saviour of mankind through sacrifice that would for me powerfully connect two key themes together and represent an elevation in the story telling
To the Black Goo.
As we know one of the big themes of Prometheus expounded by the initial scene is the concept of sacrifice. One thing others have alluded to in these current discussions and probably at the time of its release is the notion that the christ like Deacon mural also represents sacrifice and that in the same way the Engineer from the opening scene breaks down and passes out into the life blood of the planet as a catalyser and re orgnaiser of DNA so might the Deacon have operated in the same way and the "vases" and the embedded head (like a skull) represent the distillation of the strain and a memorial to that dark sacrifice.
Great to see you back Noob/Aorta! Though i haven't been around much myself recently either. And yes, that topic you started about renaming the alien was fun! Can't remember what the topic was titled as though?
"Why go to such lengths when any culture that could produce such a thing could easily come up with any number of less baroque alternatives?" - Aorta.
I have often pondered this question myself. Why not just create an arsenal of nuclear bombs? One possible explination could be that they create these ORGANIC weapons of mass destruction as they don't want to ruin the planet itself with concentrated energy that would leave that planet un-habitable because of the radiation.
Another possibility is your Bio-Terror explination, I like it a lot. I personally believe that the Morb/Giger Alien was used by the Gods or Engineers? To rain hell on the civilisations that they once seeded. To terrorize, torture and punish certain civilisations, which raises the question, what did we do that was so bad to deserve being punished by means of terror and torture?
On a slightly different note, I'm really hoping that Alien: Covenant will show us that the Alien was the very first creature to come into existence after the creation of the universe and the engineers came across it or its remnants millions of years ago and harnessed its genetics or back engineered it. Or, just leave the why's, who's and when's a mystery.
Great topic btw!
The poster was good though!
As far as a ideal Bio-Weapon if we assumed the Engineers were Millions of years more advanced then all you would need is to create a Virus that can spread fast but only targets a certain Genetic Strain i.e Humans/Primates.
Drop this to earth and its bye bye Mankind.
So we dont quite know yet who the Xeno Bio-Weapon was intended for, it may have been for the Rogue Engineers?
Ridley had alluded to how Mankind made the Gods Angry and how they may have destroyed life on Earth a number of times before.
Many Cultures have described the Gods destroying life a number of times too.... A common one was the Deluge/Flood.
When we are trying to work out WHY? in Prometheus there is not much of a Answer.... Ridleys comments however did provide a Answer and that was that we had started to behave in a way that was against the Engineers desires and they sent down a Emissary to try and change our ways but we Crucified him...
We dont have to take this as a Literally Christ Space Jesus... we can ignore that but look at in detail and then the Biblical reasons for Gods attempts at our destruction and even Greek Mythos and we have these reasons.
*Mankind had gained forbidden knowledge not meant for us.
*Mankind started to not worship God and started to worship things and do things that were offensive to God.
*Mankind started to gain pride in itself and our own needs and indulgences and only looked after our own desires and wishes.
*Mankind had not stuck to the Rules that God had given us.
*Mankind had started to try and play God ourselves.
These are all sufficient reasons for them to Pull the Plug, all the Gods where doing is exactly the same as what John Connor was trying to do in Terminator 3. That was pull the Plug on the Machines before they could rise and overthrow or rebel against Mankind.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Hello, good to hear from you! The topic was titled 'Xeno Schmeano!'.
I also like to think that the Morb is truly ancient, that the liquid is possibly waste from the forge of reality itself, and something found it, and managed to capture a sample. It fits for me because it echoes the more primitive efforts of Weyland to do the same thing.
That would make a great prologue, the Engineer's or SP's first encounter with the Morb, or the Liquid.
Yes many found the opening scene to be confusing, but I wonder how many were just jumping on the Troll Wagon because it's more fun to just trash everything everyone else is trashing.
It's true that one had to use their imagination to decipher what was happening there, but really, is it that hard? Please. And if you have to think about anything, how nice that it's something so unique. And besides, it makes sense that it's somewhat inexplicable, these are extraterrestrial beings. People are going "oh no, it's not the Space Jockey" and then they go " oh no, it doesn't make any sense" Make up your minds! Do you think anything a Space Jockey does is gonna make sense?
But I digress. We should really start a new debate thread about that scene alone. I think it has relevance to the new movie.
Yes as far as the Goo it would be interesting to find out if we will get more information on it.
The Source which we cant not take as serious unless the movie backs up what they said.... or we get a release of the earlier drafts. They claimed this about the Goo.
They said it was a Forbidden Fruit/Fire/Knowledge and a Tool to the creation of everything living... a Tool intended to be used under Permission of the Hierarchy and Engineers are tasked to use it with their consent.
Using the Tool in a way not intended can lead to disastrous consequences, and using the Tool against the Wishes of the Hierarchy results in Punishment for this Theft.
And basically play with Fire and you get Burnt.
I think we need to look at it that the Origins of the Goo, its uses and Knowledge of its uses that the Hierarchy to the Engineers had.... if Mankind possessed this Tool/Knowledge we could then become as Gods ourselves.
They did say that Fire and Stone touched upon in some way not what exactly happens to LV-223 or the Goo, but what potentially could happen all the same.
As far as Engineers, they hinted that they was Punished, but this Punishment released them from Bondage in the same way that the Punishment and being thrown from Paradise by God allowed the Fallen Angels such freedom.... also how in Paradise Lost some of the Fallen Angels where changed to Serpents.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
As for the MORM/XENO while we cant be sure how Ancient it is..... the Organism and Method that its Progenitor was created would indeed be very Ancient
We could maybe look at the LV-223 Engineers as being maybe like Weyland and what End Game Intentions he and the company would have wanted if they could gain all the knowledge and technology of the Engineers.
We would reverse engineer, re-engineer and manipulate this to our own End...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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