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What happens to Shaw after Prometheus in Alien: Covenant - Fan Theory

What happens to Shaw after Prometheus in Alien: Covenant - Fan Theory

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Chris

Apr-01-2016 11:08 PM

What was a common theme throughout Prometheus which echoed personally with the character Shaw? The ability to create life. Originally thought to be infertile, when exposed the Alien matter on LV-223, by means of impregnation by Holloway, we learned Shaw was able to overcome her infertility and give birth to what became the Trilobite.

The key theme here is Shaw and her ability to create life, a trait only women posses. 

My theory is this: Shaw is manipulated and used by David as a means to give birth and spawn a new Alien. A female reproductive system is required to complete a specific process by which David can create a new Organism. Not necessarily a Xenomorph, but something that has the ability to create life itself. 

You'll notice, Holloway never gave birth to an Alien (despite doing so in early drafts of the script). It was Shaw, who gave birth to a Facehugger-like creature. Something capable of creating new life by means of "seeding" a host. 

The only other crew infected by any Alien matter on LV-223 were male and they merely transformed into zombie-like monsters.

It is my theory (of many) that David uses Shaw, whether by means of infecting her with new Alien matter or by using her as a missing puzzle piece, to set in motion a chain of events which eventually lead to the birth / creation of the Xenomorph.

Building off of my last topic, this could explain why Shaw isn't in Alien: Covenant. Maybe what we see of Shaw isn't actually "Shaw" at all, anymore, but something else. 

It's a far fetched theory, but anything is possible. What do you think?

122 Responses to What happens to Shaw after Prometheus in Alien: Covenant - Fan Theory

BigDave

Apr-25-2016 2:35 PM

Yes the Deacon was meant to show us a close connection to Xeno DNA.... the movie is vague and has clues that contradict each other.. so no one can really pin point the exact Answers...

The Mural was this a Past Event or a Prophecy.. it depends and neither can be ruled out... the other clues in the Mural send some and me down a different route unless the other vague things are merely Easter Eggs within it...

Lindeloff did not help matters, he refered to the Deacon as the Proto Xeno... he refered to the Xeno/Eggs and Urns as Chicken or Egg which came first.... (i think our true answer is when we actually look at a real Chicken, how did it come to be... it Evolved somehow overtime.... or something evolved into the first Egg.. or was the First Chicken or Egg created instead?)

Lindeloff confused things more when he said the Hammerpedes offered a big Clue to the Xenomorph Origins..   But i never listen to anything Lindeloff or JJ Abraham's for that matter ever say...

With Ridley i think his comments are more in the ball park.

I am particularly interested in Ridleys comments about Prometheus 2 a while back.... where David is Bringing Hell with him... (Cargo) and what happens if the Engineers Bio-Weapon infects GOD? or a MACHINE....

Maybe one of those is a clue to the Xenomorph Origins?

I think the biggest problem with any of this is Timeline.... i did suspect David played a part in the Xeno creation....  but would he Sacrifice himself? i think he would want to be GOD.... but at the time of the Trailers i felt it was leading towards David being the Space Jockey.. even though i never liked the idea because 1) Size but most of all 2) Time-frame...

Maybe Covenant could go the route of my theory (that was debunked when a trailer showed Davids Head) .... if there are TWO Androids then David does not have to Sacrifice himself...

Again Time-frame is a issue... unless Time Travel Paradox is used... but please no Terminator Plot.... i.e John Connor sends Reece to Protect his Mother Sarah but then its Reece who from this event becomes Connors Father.

If the Engineers Technology can bridge time and space and allow for time travel... then why did the Engineers not go back in time to put right the failings... they could even go back to the moment that Mankind was created and go... Ah... Fudge that... and not create us in the first place....  (like God going back to about to create Adam and go... nope i dont think so).

So maybe some kind of Accident causes such a event that cause a Partial Time Rift..... if they are going for David to play a part in the Xenomorph or a event from Alien Covenant... then i hope thats the route they go..

How?  Maybe David gets up to no Good... or the other David intervenes  so either First David has a change of mind... or 2nd one tries to put things right....

Either Paradise is destroyed... or LV-223 at some point in the franchise but the event causes a temporal space rift and fracture in Time that the Derelict then passes through and crashes back on LV-426

David, or other David or someone else.. had a Good intention and Action to prevent Death and they succeeded but in doing so there Ship was put through a tear in Space and crashed on LV-426 and so ultimately in trying to prevent the Xeno... they have left some surviving Xeno related Organism or Eggs on the ship...

The only problem with this is the SOS on LV-426... it was not in English or a Human Language but Alien..... so that rules out to me a Human, or David being the Space Jockey... as far as Human as in came from Earth that is. or Ancestral route from Earth.

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Apr-26-2016 1:28 AM

Lots to think about and I have noted all your remarks my pithy observations are:-

1) The ten years gives David's career as God plenty of time to gain traction. Hence my idea that the prologue will enigmatically set up David's "career path".

2) If David is a "synthetic" is their a David on board Covenant who

 is flesh and blood and wants to close David 8 (God) down big drama inherent there.

3) If ALIEN 5, which might include exploring THE derelict, having been moved in a clandestine operation before the destruction of LV426, has been brought into line with A Covenant, could that be to bring into line what they find on the derelict with what goes into the more detailed backing into LV426.

Finally the sacrificial backstory of the Space Jockey saving earth can be teased in ALIEN 5 before we find whom was the Jockey. An unknowing (transformed David) a repentant ( transformed David) or the one who found her answers radically changed but at heart Shaw who infects herself. 

 

BigDave

Apr-26-2016 3:14 PM

Yes there is various ways they could go about those things, and well if we are only going by movies as Canon and with Prometheus being vague.. there is no reason why they cant have the Space Jockey as being a former David or other David, or Shaw or some other Human.

Time difference can be covered by some event that throws the Derelict back in time... i dont want it to be a Technology like Dr Who's Tardis but a one off Event..  as that can open holes in the plot... lol no Pun intended... but i hope if the go the time travel route the only holes in the universe we are left with is a hole in space and time caused by some devastating event...  (Super Nova? )

But i would still think the Space Jockey is related to the Engineers, he was either a Engineer, a Race who created the Engineers or a Race who came from the Engineers or those who created them.  could even have it he was a Nephilim.

The reason i side with one of the above is purely the Alien Nature of the SOS..... unless it was David and its not a Alien SOS but a SOS that is in a sequence of audio notes that Androids can decode.... kind of like a Morse Code for Androids... well some sound that only Androids may be able to decipher or the companies computers.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Apr-26-2016 11:14 PM

B G As you know the SOS is a warning to stay away echoed in Shaw's warning to stay away some thing I remember making a connection with when I watched Prom. 

Whoever is in the Jockey chair is using and connected symbiotically to Engineer technology which already in Prom we see David interfacing with successfully. None of this is conclusive of anything its just for me the discussion has challenged me to consider whether the backing into LV426 could be narrative rather than allegorical and putting my other hat on (what captures the wider imagine) a powerful narrative solution is more aligned to the general film goers needs. The only thing that has grown in my mind particularly since yesterday is if A L I E N 5 is a mover and entwined time wise between the two pre equals for them to throw forward and back clues to each others mutual benefit in a very hard fact way seems  much more commercially sensible than the pre equals to be elliptical and off their own. Both elements can help each other. 

BigDave

Apr-27-2016 4:47 AM

I see what you mean....

David can understand Engineers Language and writing and interface with their Technology and so whats to stop him being able to set off a Warning Beacon on the Derelict?

If he wanted to he could set off such a Warning if it was a Pre-coded Warning System, but he would know that Humans may not be able to determine its Message....  not typical Humans...  But that does not mean that the Company can not interpret it... they are bound to have Androids and Computers and surely David is not unique in being able to decipher the Engineers Communications (Written and Oral).

If we assume David could have set off the Signal, then maybe we have to ask... why would he do that to Warn Space Jockey Race away?  Why not if it was meant for Mankind leave a SOS that we can understand.

Answers to these logically would have to be... that maybe he can not record his own Warning and so it is a selection of Pre-configured Warnings he chose from. 

And maybe he felt a Warning to the Engineers, may be taken by them as a Stay Away like how Shaws was for Mankind.. well Human would be travelers to LV-223..   Maybe David would leave a SOS to the Engineers in the hope they dont come back... and thus leaves the Derelict ripe for the Company to come and exploit.

Maybe also knowing a Alien SOS, Warning could be taken as a Help SOS by Human explorers or that someone in the company would be able to determine the SOS/Warning and know what is going on but still send the Nostramo under the false pretense Order 937.

Or maybe David has his own Evil Agenda.. and he sets the Warning off knowing someone would come along and then get infected.

so yes we cant rule this out... and Alien Covenant release of the Badge of the Crew gives some new clues...

But as with the topic i will comment on next.... the bottom line is for me the Derelict seems to have been there a while, and by that a long time... but there is a way to explain that... and have it not be so long.. or be long but LV-426 to be not so baron so long ago.

But the Weyland Viral Site does mention they knew of LV-426 a long long time before Prometheus.. but this could be in context of a potential World that can sustain life as opposed to actually knowing of the Signal as far as 2039

=================

Discovery of Acheron LV-426

Weyland astronomers discover multiple moons and a ringed planet just outside the Zeta 2 Reticula System, which are possibly able to support life. Weyland expects to travel there within the century.

May 14, 2039

==========

This just means the discovery and by no means shows they had knowledge of the Signal prior to Prometheus.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-27-2016 4:58 AM

As far as the Narative that seems to be setting up Alien Covenant to Alien, and David being a driving force.. yes i think to some extent that could be true..

Ridley said he is coming in from the Back Door, or Rear End..

But it could be as far as the process of Alien Origin to Alien... like i said on another post...

If we look at Star Wars being a 9 Movie Story... once they are all out and we watch them in a A-Z Order.. EP1-9 the movie would have a different feel than how it was Originally released... EP 4-6 then 1-3 then 7-9.... and in watching it A-Z i.e 1-9 some elements that would have been surprises would have been spoiled..

What if there was a   A-Z to Alien.... but then with Alien 5 they have some things that would potentially cause problems with a Prometheus 2-3  never mind the Space Jockey Story....  they could not hold off Alien 5 until the Story from Alien Origins/Engineers to Alien was told... as maybe Weaver would be too old, and fans lost interest and what if Prometheus 2 and 3 ruined Fans interest in the Franchise?

So if they then had to release Alien 5, earlier maybe they had make some changes and have to tackle the timeline from Prometheus to Alien in a different way... in reverse.. going in from the back end?

Maybe this is why there is a Gap Between David and Shaw leaving LV-223 off to Meet would be Engineers and Creators on their Homeworld.... to then having a timeline of events from 2094 to 2104 not covered... so we jump to 2104 and a World that has only David on it, maybe no Engineers, maybe No Shaw?

Which is different to what the sequel was looking like....  maybe instead they are going at it from a reverse... the Back Door... and so the sequel to Alien Covenant would pick up on what is left of the Engineers, what became of Shaw, what did they find when they got to Paradise?

Also how the company merged... as with latest News we now know as of 2104 Weyland-Yutani Merged... but Covenant has bypassed this Time Frame... like it has Bypassed David and Shaws journey and what became of them or what did they find.

Maybe this is the kind of coming in from the Rear End?  Like Star Wars going EP 3-6 first then 1-3 next?

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

CarynParnall

Apr-27-2016 7:46 AM

Thanks for your valuable insights on the whole back door thing BigDave.   

I think you're pretty spot on with your take on what Riddles could be cryptically getting at.  Your assessment makes a lot of sense.  He's gotta be hinting at something by saying he's going at it the back way.  It's really been bugging me lately.  I've been wracking my brain wondering what he could have really meant by all that.

Going in through a rear entrance could also be a way of saying that the connections to LV-426 will be present in Alien: Covenant, yet the "back door" might not be as easy to locate as the "front door."  The figurative entrance point to LV-426 might be more difficult to find in Covenant than it would have been in Shaw/David's journey story.

The thought that we might be looking back at a few events from the last decade crossed my mind. However, I never really considered why that might be (besides a few of the obvious reasons to look backwards, like seeing Shaw reattaching David's head etc).  But now it's becoming clearer.  If the filmmakers are sort of skipping Shaw and David's journey to bring Covenant more in line with Alien 5, then maybe whatever happened with Shaw is in fact connected to LV-426 and Ridley doesn't want to completely address Shaw's fate/those events yet.  

I agree that the movie seems to have undergone a change in direction and appears to have altered its course by pushing some of the Engineer stuff/Miss Shaw into the background. It seems this movie was always going to contain a higher percentage of Alien DNA than Engineer DNA, but I think that the amount of Alien related concepts and the number of ideas pertaining to the organism itself (like why it was created) was increased. 

We'll probably learn a lot more about the creature(s) in this one  That could partially be due to ALIEN 5's influence.  I'm almost certain that Fox wants ALIEN 5 to connect with the prequel movies somehow.  

They'll most likely want to cross-pollinate the different storylines.  At least in some small way.  Which could be the main reason Alien 5 was held back.  I don't really think it's because the movies are going to interfere with each other:  I think things were held back so they can tell this story about David first, while Ridley, Blomkamp, Sigourney, the writers/Fox, and possibly Cameron (since he's still close with Sigourney & Fox due to Avatar) are still planning out the best ways for it all to connect..  Some ideas for Alien 5 might have been with them for years.

Thoughts_Dreams

Apr-27-2016 9:40 AM

Big Dave:

 

I got interested in some of what you wrote so I will try to write a reply if that is alright. I am not sure of this is meant to be just a discussion between you and Michelle J and if it is then I apologize for interrupting.

 

To comment on some of what you wrote I will start with the Deacon. To me it was obvious that the Deacon was meant to be a reference to the Xeno but in my mind the Deacon was supposed to an earlier ancestor to the Xeno born from a Squid alien that laid an egg (supposedly) inside the Engineer (from the end of Prometheus). It was good that they added the Deacon or else it would have been more confusing. It looks too similar to the Xeno to not be important.

You wrote about what Lindelof said, to me many of his answers are annoying. He never gives straight answers it is like he cannot decide for himself what is what and it becomes half-baked (is that a word?) so to speak that is at least from what I have seen from videos when he has discussed Prometheus. As far as the Hammerpede I saw that it had acid for blood but I never paid much attention to it when I was trying to connect the dots about how the Xeno was created. The Hammerpede was more confusing than helpful so I decided to neglect it in order to find an answer that I think made more sense.

 

How could the bio weapon infect a machine? By Gods do they mean Engineers or maybe their boss (if there is such a thing in the Engineer world and of that boss is seen as a God compare that to kings that said that they ruled with the help from God that the kings had much support from the church back in time)? How could the eventual machine be a clue to the Xeno? It feels like I am missing something here.

 

If they will let David play a part in the creation of the Xeno I hope that he will not be the one that creates it and be made evil. I like that the idea that David is in a gray zone as far as good and bad goes.

 

I hope that the Space Jockey isn’t David or Shaw, that would be lame. To me the Space Jockey is looking too similar to the Engineers so I have always assumed that it is an Engineer or something closely related to it (compare it to how crocodiles are related to dinosaurs).

 

As far as how long the derelict has been on LV-426 (I think that is was 426) I hope that it hasn’t been there for hundreds of year but rather closer to the timeline of Prometheus and the year that Alien was supposed to take place in (what ever year that was), that would make more sense and make it easier to understand what happened.

 

Just a bunch of thoughts

BigDave

Apr-27-2016 4:19 PM

"I got interested in some of what you wrote so I will try to write a reply if that is alright. I am not sure of this is meant to be just a discussion between you and Michelle J and if it is then I apologize for interrupting"

Thats find, its a general discussion that we can all throw our 2 cents into.

i will answer your Paragraphs with my Two Cents.

P1 "I will start with the Deacon"

I think this again is a Plot Device, it is to show that the Goo in the Urns is some kind of Accelerant Agent that contains Xeno DNA and it passes this DNA onto what ever it comes into contact with and that depends how it comes into contact.

Hamerpedes are Worms who get Evolved into Face Huger type Snakes, when really they are worms evolved to Take on Xeno Traits... Ill come back to them soon.

Deacon was due to this Xeno DNA Goo, infecting one of Shaws Eggs or Holloways Sperm so as that the Egg Grows into a Organism that is a Hybrid of Human and Xeno DNA... i have covered this in detail many times... but basically Squid is a Human/Xeno Hybrid that is thus a Human/Xeno Face Huger that leads to a Human/Xeno Hybrid.. the Deacon which could then be say 75% Human DNA as opposed to 50/50 in the Alien Xenomorph. I have covered it in detail before with clues.

P2 "You wrote about what Lindelof said"

There may be clues in what he said, but we are taking them to literal if we listened to him..... the connections?  Acid for Blood, and Reproduction maybe?  I dont think the Hamerpede is what evolves to the Xeno Progenitor... Lindeloff said the Deacon was, and also Hammerpedes play a role... does he know what he is on about?  Who knows as he and Ridley did cover the bare bones to how a sequel would go and maybe in that Xeno Origins or maybe not?   And i am not buying the Deacon and Hamerpede get it on together to make the first Xeno Baby! lol

As far as the Hammerpede again it was a Plot Device... to show how the Goo passes on Xeno traits... i.e Acid Blood. i dont buy that the Xeno got its Acid Blood from the Hamerpede, i buy that the Worms got the Acid Blood from the Black Goo....  They could have made a few more clues that would have tidy this up... including the alternative Fifields.... the Trilobite having Acid Blood... which i think it did and thats how the Engineer got his Face Burn... i have covered this before.

So the only other similarity with the Hammerpede is maybe via the Worm... that could be if we assume worms are similar to common Earth Worms.... then they are hermaphrodites means they have both Male and Female Sex Organs... they can so to speak  have Eggs and Sperm.... they can not impregnate themselves... they need another of its species to Procreate in which case each other makes each other pregnant... but pregnant is not quite the way to explain it.

After mating both worms produce a Cocoon, this is then where Sperm and Eggs are stored... these Fertilized Eggs then grow inside the Cocoon as small Worms.. and then eventually Hatch from the Cocoon.  Depending on conditions the Cocoons (contain Eggs) can lay dormant for long periods of time.

Maybe Lindeloff was pointing to that similarity?  if so that gives insight to the Xenomorph Reproductive Cycle... but then Lindeloff was maybe not looking at it like that.. but purely as Yeah Got Acid for Blood and Lays Eggs lol

P3 "How could the bio weapon infect a machine"

This could mean anything really and its if Ridley was giving a Red Herring or he had a idea.. but that could have changed...  This could meant either.

*The Creator of the Engineers AKA God is a Machine.

*Implies what if David was infected or another Synthetic.

Could tease that God is a Machine and gets infected, or David gets infected and becomes Godlike, or David becomes infected and also the Engineers or there non Synthetic Creator.  Or by David it could mean another Synthetic Organism.

I think this may have been a coy way to maybe hint at could this lead to the Bio-Mechanical Nature of the Xenomorph?

I will extend this to P4 and Davids part and that it could have hinted that he played a Role.... if not in the Xeno creation something very similar in a way to tell us how similar events in the past would have lead to the Xeno or similar.

P5 and 6.... David, Shaw LV-426 and Space Jockey....

I really cant say for sure what they are doing and they are free to explore of give us any answer... but clues and past comments (which they can change) seem to point to the Space Jockey being non Human and indeed a Engineer or related Ancestor and the Derelict being on LV-426 for thousands of years...

The after Prometheus Event and thousands of years ago can be combined if they go some kind of Time Travel Event.  But if so i hope its a One Off Event... and not a Technology that can  be used often

 

 

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-27-2016 4:46 PM

CarynParnall

Maybe i hope so, this is what i interpret as going on... and a source i had who claimed to have some knowledge of Green/Paglen Draft had said it seems Covenant became because of how Alien 5 was to effect the Prometheus sequel to a degree.

But now we have confirmed Weyland-Yutani in Covenant this means the Merger is done and maybe we dont find out how and why and when so much, it may be a mystery like Shaw, like what happened in the 10 years after Prometheus as far as Paradise, Shaw and David and Engineers. Maybe we wont even cover Engineers much? or at all?

Maybe all we would get would be as if Prometheus Clues where a bit more Spoon Fed, the Xeno DNA Organisms shown had more Xeno DNA... and we had no Sacrificial Scene and all the Engineers where dead... imagine if Prometheus was like that?   No Sacrificial Engineer Scene...  Dead Engineers, and the last one maybe he is in a mummified state where we can see his Human Resemblance and that of the Head Statue, but he is dead.. he does not get up and does not end up Face Hugged...  so we have less those clues, but more Xeno ones..

Well maybe this is what Alien Covenant will be as far as what we will see of Engineers?

To me i am now worried that in the Alien Universe these things are now not priority.

*Engineers, who are they, why they do what they do, who created them.

*Shaw and David, what happens to Shaw, how did David get put back together.

*Weyland Yutani, when and why did they Merge? What else do this companies do or know?

I dont think these will get covered as much and become as the Space Jockey was in Alien, the Deacon Mural in Prometheus.

To give way for...

*Aliens, Eggs, Face Huger etc.

*Lightly touch upon Aliens and why and how... more so on them than the Engineers role.

*And.... RIPLEY.. how she is linked because she is...  and i have funny feeling that Money Shots in the movie are.

* Seeing Xeno Egg, Face Huger, Chest Buster and Big Guy.

* Seeing what special has become of David and his Agenda.

* Seeing a New Heroine and how the Crew Connects to Ripley.

Just as Prometheus Money Shots would have been

* Hamerpedes

* Shaws C-Section and what becomes of her Squid Baby

* The Engineer Awakes and then gets into Space Jockey suit/Chair

* Deacon Chest Buster.

So i think that Fox and how well the anticipation about Blomkamps Alien 5 and Alien Fan boys wanting Xeno answers and Ripley in the Franchise again.... 

Compared to Prometheus reception especially about Giant Humanoids who are the Space Jockey Race (or related) who created us and thus are who we thought was God, and so are kind of Angels/Titans/Anunnaki and what Role, and why did they play in creating us and what else have they created..

And a Movie that would follow Shaw and David to find out that, rather than give us straight up Spoon Fed Xeno Origins and link to Alien..

So i fear now, Fox has decided a Pop Corn Xeno Fix movie is whats needed to then connect to a Happy Mary Poppins Alien 5..

Only light at the end of that Tunnel is maybe it would then allow them once those connections are made, to then see us explore the Engineers on a different tangent that has less to do with the Xeno... and that a Alien 6 etc will throw a fresher take on the Xeno, or Engineer related Shenanigans and pass the Torch to Newts to let Ripley basically appear in Avatar 2, 3, 4 and Ghost Busters 4 lol

Ps got nothing against Weaver, just i think the Ripley Character has one more major run left... but then it needs to change... but FOX, and Blomkamp think Alien is all about RIPLEY!

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Apr-28-2016 5:18 AM

I have been away for two days and "all hell breaks lose ha ha!" 

I think what we are all discussing in our different ways and to each other is how much and to what extent are the string of movies going to be threaded together and drive the answers through a neat but potentially trite narrative arc. Because John Logan is involved in Covenant and because of Ridders remarks I think the chance has increased dramatically since the shift away from the elliptical Lindelof approach.

I have a lot of sympathy with such an approach because we want more depth and answers rather than more questions but the danger is fan service answers .

What we then do is wrestle with incoming intel and where it might fit.

To finish at the end I think the jockey is an exceptional being and the chances of it being a sacrificial death with a deadly cargo and then a warning from this exceptional being is quite likely. Could this exceptional being be a radically transformed somebody rather than just one of those pale guys I think thats possible now. 

Now back to the front W/Y this now feels like a coming together following the death of the Weylands and the disastrous mission of the Prometheus. How do they find out that has occurred. Shaw's message arrives, is intercepted by either elements of W and Y and they also, to "follow" Shaw and David have established where they went. Thats to use one of the casts language a fluid move from Prom to Covenant. They know through Shaw LV223 is bad and they chose to interpret that Shaw and David have gone to the "right" place and hence it is a mission to colonise and protect and all the Covenant motives that go with it. Its not a rescue mission urgently dispatched its a changed view of exploration following the coming together of T & Y. To arrive by coincidence would be horribly plot point expeditious something must trigger the destination maybe even a bait from David.        

When they get their they find out what David the sole survivor has been cooking up, left to play God, and then we get some answers about the engineers and how the specific Zeno cycle has merged with its bio mechanical input. We learn about the Engineers third party. If their is a huge head lurking in the Sydney Studios we might get to see some more murals and David may have learnt and interpreted those for us. I certainly see D8* as a big information disseminator on matters Engineer/Zeno

BD takes the view that the Hammerpede and Deacon are representative of the Black Goo's catalytic effect in various combinations they are showing us what goes down rather than lead some where (thats always been my view its showing us methodology rather backing into something specific) BUT they may all make a good deal more sense in our understanding of the sub creation mythos once we see some more evolved answers.

One completely random thought maybe the multiple David's belonged to the Shaw/David story line searching out the truth of the Engineers phase. I am not aware of a recent observation, any thoughts ?  

    

CarynParnall

Apr-28-2016 8:36 AM

Michelle Johnston -  Perhaps that's not such a random thought.  You may be right:  the multiple David concept could have been a much bigger part of the story originally - in the earlier drafts of the script.  

I'm not sure exactly when we began hearing about multiple Davids from BigDave's source. Or how many drafts of the script they'd already gone through by that point; however, I can confirm that Fox had people looking at the concept in various ways.  At least at one point there was going to be another David or three in the story...

It's possible that the idea has survived in some form, yet the info about multiple Davids being in the film is something that leaked years ago;  if it's still part of the script, then it probably has changed form in some way.  

What I think has changed, is that there will only be one additional David in the script now, who would be David 9.

I also agree with you that happening upon the planet by chance is highly unlikely.  It's so improbable that it's almost out of the question. Somebody on that ship knows exactly where they're going.  The universe is extremely vast, and the planet might not be anywhere near LV-223, so the odds of them bumping into David out there in the great expanse of the universe are incredibly slim.  I'm thinking that at least one character is in the know.

Your thoughts on what happened with the Derelict/its pilot's act being sacrificial in nature are intriguing as well.   

 

BigDave -  I've always thought this next prequel movie was going to explore all the stuff you mentioned in more depth too.  Not only LV-426 & the Engineers/Space Jockey, but also things like how the merger happens.

The Weyland-Yutani corporation itself really interests me for some strange reason.  I was actually looking forward to seeing the hows and whys behind the merger; however, now that they're skipping over showing that, I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed.  Mostly due to my weird personal desire to see more of the merger.  Mostly.

They really don't need to bring back Hicks and Newt. That's just Fox performing fan service. So yeah, I'm a little worried about Alien 5.  My mind's not made up yet though.  I haven't really decided how I feel about it.

It's neat that Alien 5's happening, it's just really hard to figure out how they're going to continue "Ripley's story" and have it all make sense.  It's like you said, the movie runs the risk of becoming a mindless popcorn flick.  

With Blomkamp saying that he's not really ignoring Alien 3 (and instead running parallel to it), I'm not sure how any of it will work. They'd need to win me over with a good story, and a very logical reason why Hicks and Newt are suddenly back (Ripley too for that matter).  I kind of hope that there's some sort of virtual reality shenanigans going on in the plot of Alien 5:  that it turns out it's only a simulation & Ripley is stuck in a hologram.

Your source once mentioned a bizarre Matrix-like concept, right?  Well, what if I was to tell you that almost everything we see in Alien 5 is a virtual reality simulation? What if the machines have hijacked reality itself by that point? (/Morpheus voice) Maybe the creator of Bishop asks Ripley if she wants to stay in the dreamworld, or if she's ready to wake up. Lol.  Not saying this is what actually happens. It's just a hypothesis/theory of mine. 

Michelle Johnston

Apr-28-2016 10:13 AM

Carlyn, Thanks for your thoughts much appreciated. On A 5 you have to say multiple time lines is pretty tricky I see real jeopardy there. I would much rather they take 3 and 4 out of cannon by a simple starting plot device rather than parallel it. At the moment it reminds me of fan fiction where people re write relationship outcomes to get what they want. The only hope is being science fiction they have a good science answer. So far the effect of A 5 is to pull the Prometheus sequel away from the elliptical Lindelof vision and crutch out a tight narrative with answers to me thats not such a bad thing.    

BigDave

Apr-28-2016 3:05 PM

@Michelle

Yes i agree with them points, who knows however where they are going with Alien Covenant....  i had a  theory, which i put before and re-hashed with the Covenant Badge news Post... 

But the Weyland Yutani means my theory may no longer apply, and so yes while the Synopsis could suggest the Crew were not so wise as to what is going on...   Now we have Weyland Yutani behind the Covenant mission  or Technology this could indeed be the first time the Company has attempted a Order 937....

The Covenant Crew for the Most Part could think they are off to a Paradise, based on information the Company has given them, where the Company has not been completely honest... Maybe David gave the Location of Paradise then?

The Company set up a mission to go to a uncharted Earth like World, which would rule out the Coincidental Plot that it happens to be where David is.. when the crew and reason the crew set off to this World, had no idea..

To now that someone does... but the Crew dont... they think they are off on a mission to a Earth like World.... not knowing the Companies real intentions... and with a hidden member with a Agenda.. not so hidden like Ash.. just with Hidden Motives like Ash i.e Order 937

This would work...  and the Nostramo was maybe the 2nd attempt but using some other excuse and also having a hidden Android and then finally Hadleys Hope was the 3rd attempt to set up a Colony on the Moon LV-426 where they did not know about the Derelict or Xenos?

Yeah right as Prometheus and Alien Covenant would prove they did.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-28-2016 3:17 PM

Sorry last reply covered mainly what Caryn was covering.

To expand upon that.... the Multiple Davids was part of the time when Hell on Earth rumor came out...  The source who is vague, said nope Hell on Earth is not Prometheus 2 they thought maybe it was Alien 5 working Title? but that Prometheus 2 was simply going to be called Paradise Lost or Pandemonium or combination... i.e Paradise Pandemonium....  which when you think of it Paradise and Pandemonium are maybe alternate States , Yin/Yang Tranquility and Bliss vs Chaos and Disorder.. but also Heaven/Hell.

The Source around the same time of these Hell on Earth Rumors, said  yes there is more than one David but dont expect a Army of them... more like less than a handful.  Also Shaw does not Die... (Technically) and No Ripley in the draft as of October 2014

Little hints that Yutani play a big role eventually too and so the Merger may not have happened early and off the bat as far as the Paglen/Green Draft.

so yes Alien 5, may have triggered a change of its own Plot, and Prometheus Sequel to fit in together a bit more... hence Logan brought on board.

So yes... also i feel just going from Weyland which now has lost its Two CEO's to then 10 years latter we have Weyland Yutani is something they could have covered...  but again same could be said with how there is no Shaw, and maybe no or little left of the Engineers.

But thats not to say these wont be covered latter... and that right now they have maybe had to come in from the Back Door, Rear... because of Alien 5....  so it would be like maybe how Star Wars EP-4-6 was out before EP 1-3 but set after...

Maybe there is hope that events prior to Prometheus and events/questions get answered latter and the events between Prometheus and Alien Covenant get answered too.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-28-2016 3:26 PM

As far as Parallel with regards to Alien 3 and Alien R it would be interesting how they do this...

We have options.. maybe here is a few.

* They are dreams.. but elements of those dreams will come true as far as Alien 5.

* Some event causes a tear in space and for a Parallel universe to open up.. i put  a theory that what if David caused or somehow with Engineer Ship managed to open up a tear in space near LV-426 to travel back in time to LV-426 thousands of years ago.. and Covenant enters the same Tear in Space and Time.

This then becomes unstable during the events of after Alien Covenant but the Blast in Aliens somehow triggers its again and sends the Sulcao into Alternative universes...

* There is already Parallel Universes in Existence... Aliens ==> Alien R is One.... Aliens ==>  Alien 5, 6 etc is another..... Likewise Prometheus ==> What ever they had planned before.... and Prometheus ==> Alien Covenant are other alternatives.

I would take option 2 out of those. Its a way that could tie in the events of David to Alien. And yet still have the Derelict be there for thousands of years....

Yes even though its all Terminator Genisys... maybe the True plot is closer to that than we think.... and David is the Key part in all events in the Franchise... his mission destroy Earth, for the Engineers as they made a Covenant to not retry... and they have made a Covenant with David to make him more Mortal yet Immortal and Godlike in return for David to set off a Secret Covert Plan and Pull the Strings to lead to mankind's destruction then he can be God of Earth and his Androids.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-28-2016 3:37 PM

@ Caryn...

Yes the source mentioned Matrix, and Blade Runner but they would not go into detail, just that once the movie is out (based on the Draft by Green/Paglen) we would after seeing it played out.. pick up themes from Matrix and Blade Runner.... but they said it wont be too literal.

Just how Prometheus links to the Bible, God, Prometheus Myth and Angels/Fallen Angels but again the connections where mild in a theme and these themes are to be explored but it wont be literal... same with Paradise Lost... he said there is theme there, a theme seeds in Prometheus set... that ties in a connection between Prometheus Mythos and Greek Titanomachy  and Bible but more so Paradise Lost theme... these all have a connection, which is also connected to Matrix and Blade Runner as far as a theme....  but they would not Spell out what... so as to not spoil it.

But they claimed seeds of the theme has already been hinted at and delt with in Prometheus... using your head and looking at how Prometheus Plot and Greek Titanomachy  and Biblical Paradise Lost and Rebellion Themes, and Prometheus/Lucifer all could connect and also themes in Blade Runner and Matrix... would give you the back story to the Plot..

They dont say much no more... not for 2 months now.. they dont know what Alien Covenant is about, only it has been re-changed for some reason, and so like a jump from Alien Engineers to Paradise... but both kept a lot of themes.... well Alien Covenant could be doing a reverse and so themes from the Green/Paglen Draft could make it into the movie.. or at least by the end of the Prequel Franchise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-28-2016 3:41 PM

PS..... while i went off Topic.... in regard to the Paglen/Green Draft...  the image at the Top of this Thread... is indeed what ONE of the Xenomorphs in the earlier drafts was to look very close to.

Alien Covenant however now hints to seeing the more Traditional Xenomorph from Alien as opposed to a fresher form based of the Original... (Necronom IV)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Apr-29-2016 1:43 AM

@Big Dave and Carolyn.

If David 9 is incoming on the Covenant I think my idea of real drama out of D 8 and 9 would work just as I suggested David 8 and David real.

What I like about this idea is David 9 is W/Y 937 driven whereas David 8 is now self employed. You could argue that two androids going head to head (excuse that) is equally dramatic but two David's would work nicely with the naive crew and the dopple ganger jeopardy.  

 

BigDave

Apr-29-2016 5:45 AM

Indeed interesting.....

The Weyland Yutani Badge blows my hopes of a Earlier Covenant mission departure and David 8 meeting i  who's likeness he was created in....    before that release... that nearly rule out that... unless its a relative of someone who David 8 was modeled after i.e Grandchild?

Seeing Fasbender in New Zealand and Australia around the time of shooting without his David Blonde Locks made me wonder if that theory was true..... but nope... the Badge now confirms the Covenant is newer than 2094 well at least the Crew and Mission is.. (i.e Weyland Yutani)....  maybe another David Model like the David 9 has different Hair Color?

I think having David meet a more advanced version of himself could work as a interesting Dynamic... David 9 is superior to David 8... only David 8's flaws make him Less of a Slave to company and Free.. and well what ever Engineer Technology David has played around with could make him more Advanced... or indeed Evolve David 9 to then be used in David 8's experiments.?

Some had said David 8 may have a Agenda against the Crew and Mankind and Swap Places... well i hope Shaw does a Good job or who ever else put David back together so it fools the crew as surely how are they to hide any marks from having his head torn off?

As far as David and as you say Michelle a potential other Android i.e other David having a Order 937 Mission... and so David 8 being not the Antagonist maybe this could work?

Or maybe he is a antagonist but he redeems himself in the End... but still i am torn to the Space Jockey being a relative to the Engineers, and either a Race above the Engineers/Creators of Engineers or a Race Below the Engineers and Creation...

I am drawn to the Space Jockey as being a Benevolent being or one that had done something Heroic.. but this could be in regards to his Own Kind.

Japanese Kamikaze Pilots where seen as Heroic as far as Japan goes and Perl Harbor... But to the USA there actions would have been seen as Hostile and Cowardly.

The thing is and whats interesting is every aspect and connection with the Franchise as a whole, can take any route there is NO SET path they have to take...

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Apr-30-2016 7:14 AM

On the Covenant badge thread I deliberately left out any speculation about the Space Jockey. I wanted to focus on the front end rather than backing into.

The decision to remove Shaw from the narrative was a big decision and I am inclined to believe her withdrawal is connected with the decision to thread down to A L I E N. She knows far to much for that narrative movement. So how can you get the maximum output from her in this re aligned framework. The most tension would come from her being a victim but one that survives and redeems the situation - she could maintain her covenant with God.  Equally if there is a unique personality in the jockey chair whom by the grace of god has come to intervene that personality could save Shaw and fulfil her expectations of her faith. To "Hicks" her seems lame and some thing the other end of the franchise is trying to put right a point that can not be lost on Sir Ridley.

The other huge theme would be for David to find his humanity and in doing so recognises the ultimate of human qualities sacrifice for others. 

If we are backing in just being a pale guy is not enough it has to mean something so that whilst the outcome is predictable the back ground to that outcome should be fully invested. 

  

 

 

BigDave

Apr-30-2016 5:34 PM

I understand what you are saying, with the Space Jockey.

Maybe to have it be that the Actions were Heroic and to Save Earth?  Ridley had said it was Heroic Action but maybe only as far as its own Race.

But then as you said, maybe for some it would be better that the Space Jockey is not a Engineer, but David or Shaw?   I am not sure this would be the case.... but maybe  a Engineer doing the deed, because of David or Shaw? To redeem himself (Space Jockey).

Timeframe for me is still the big issue, but nothing on-screen has said the Space Jockey has been there for any time period...  although the mild Xeno links and Alien connections (Juggernaught/Engineer Suits) and how prior to 2000 years ago LV-223 was a Outpost that was going well...  to me could link to the events being connected as far as in History and Past... i.e thousands of years ago.

But it does not rule out, using some kind of Time Shift/Travel to allow the events of Prometheus/Covenant to link to Alien.

I think to not have more clues to what the Mural, Frescos meant in Prometheus, and more about Engineers in particular the Questions Shaw wanted to ask...  to have these not covered would be a Waste!

Also to kill Shaw off, and not show How ever would be Lame, to not even mention her at all ever... i.e so we dont know if she died, where she went NOTHING would be far worse.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

May-01-2016 8:23 AM

Big Dave: I can understand the Deacon connection to the Xeno but the Hammerpedes were just confusing and were straight up unnecessary I think. Did they show the Hammerpedes to show that the Xeno could have different relatives or something? It didn’t make a lot of sense to me, the Squid and Deacon connection did however.

 

To say that the Deacon and Hammerpede made the first Xeno just seems dumb to me. There were not enough clues in Prometheus I think, if they would have kept the Xeno Fifield that would have helped a lot. I don’t say that the movie was impossible to understand but it wasn’t as well explained as it could have been. The Prometheus movie that I have watched gave the Engineer a face burn after he was biting the Squid so that made sense to me.

 

As far as infecting a machine, maybe it is organic life but that its existence is like a machine, mechanic (as a metaphor). I don’t know. It could be interesting if it would explain the bio mechanical nature of the Xeno but I wonder how they will do that but I doubt that it would can be made in a way that is kind of logical maybe you can explain that better. Maybe I have missed something.

 

I think as far as the time line and space travel and so on I think that there might be some accident that the Engineers didn’t even thought would happen (the Alien on LV-426 I mean if that is what you hinted at). You can plan your technology (its purpose and so on) but there is always a risk that you miss something. This happens to humans and it would probably happen to the Engineers because I don’t buy the idea that they are perfect because if they would then the scenario with LV-426 wouldn’t have happened.

 

Yes I think that the Space Jockey is something similar to the Engineers. I don’t buy that it is a human, that would be too disappointing if it was.

Michelle Johnston

May-01-2016 10:16 AM

@ Big Dave

Space Jockey

Now that we are "backing in" rather than being offered methodology the Jockey has to be part of the story rather than emblematic.

If it is a benign jockey you have to build that notion with an audience other wise it becomes a dot plot movie. We have to be emotionally invested in it and "feel" the heroism. With a movie to follow introducing a specific engineer who we come to know is not impossible.

If it is someone whom we know "their spirit" but radically changed but still identifiable we would be intrigued by that transformation and their ownership of the challenge.

I want to throw a complete spanner in here. Benjamin Rigby was hired in October so belongs to the Paradice Lost/Covenant phase and he made what might be an important point and I quote "Because there's an end result being the original Alien, it has to connect". 

Ridley has said there maybe one two movies after Covenant this maybe a smoke screen given he would have to have an outline to get there I wonder if Benjamin is telling us Covenant is the link between Prom and  A L I E N. People working in Sydney have clarified there not working on three of Scott's movies but one again may mean nothing or something.

If so  the idea of a transformed radically different re engineered D8 or Shaw taking off in the Croissant and crash landing the deadly cargo would rise in my view.    

Questions

As to your questions that need answering the reason why the Zeno, we know that is in, and giving context to that decision can tell us a good deal more about the Engineers and of course its in the original title P L and Milton's poem we know there is a fall and that suggests a desire to sub create "in order to create first we must destroy" .

If I am right those who wanted a much more detailed account of the mythos of the Engineers maybe disappointed. The way your diagram of all this worked for me is the answers are from the Mankind/Zeno end of the telescope with the Engineers down the other end. To switch the telescope round and look back from the Engineers could take away the mystery and is more jeopardy for a tent pole movie that needs human character to sell. I like my gods and semi gods to remain remote veiled in a mist.  One of the reasons the acolyte was a lone finger and the elders withdrawn was to add mystery and intrigue I like that. The same logic was applied to removing the Engineer Dialogue offer the least amount to make the point.  

BigDave

May-03-2016 3:58 PM

Yes interesting view of it all Michelle  and we cant rule out what they are going to do as far as the Connection or Time Line of it..

While since Alien and After Prometheus clues was that the event occurred a long time ago, and was a Space Jockey/Engineer.

There is no 100% Proof if we only go by what is scene on Film and so they can take this anyway they want.

They have hinted a number of different ways to the connections over the years, and so things either changing or they was not quite sure how to Tackle it.

But i think they do now have a PLAN and they would want to cover this to completion by the time they make the Final Movie in the prequel.

So Ridleys comments over the years  that point to a few thousands of years ago and a being related to the Engineers who was carrying a deadly Cargo.

And Lindeloffs the Deacon is a Proto Xeno and Hammerpedes are connected in some way to the Origins...

Cant not be take as either being what we shall be shown.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-03-2016 4:02 PM

@ Thoughts_Dreams

 

The Hammerpedes where to show us the Goo, Evolves what ever life it comes into contact with,.. it takes the best Genetic Traits of those Organisms, and then evolves the rest with Xeno DNA.

Shaws Squid was more Xeno, because the base Organism that was infected was a Unfertilized Human Egg, which meant less DNA to Reprogram and Evolve.

I would assume if Shaw was already a few months Pregnant before bieng infected with Xeno DNA and this DNA infected the Baby then we would have ended up with something like the Alien 3 New Born

Well other concepts..

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

May-04-2016 9:07 AM

Big Dave:

 

When I watched Prometheus a while before my intention was to understand how the Deacon was born at the end. For some reason I don't think that the Hammerpedes are necessary, they are more confusing and like a side-track.

 

One problem with Lindelof is that he puts in things that don't make sense so you got to throw out some of the things that he adds in order for things to make sense. For me the Xeno connection was interesting in Prometheus. What I am hinting at is that Lindelof seems to complicate things and while the Hammerpede did so then maybe it was Lindelof's idea to have it there.

 

Alright so the Hammerpedes are affected by the goo but what is the connection between the Hammerpedes and the Deacon/proto-Xeno except for acid for blood? This is my problem with the Hammerpede, it doesn’t make sense as far as the Deacon or Xenos are concerned.

 

For me the Deacon was made from Squid + Engineer. The Squid was from Shaw. Did the Hammerpedes had anything to do with that? Maybe not, I am not sure if that is very likely.

BigDave

May-05-2016 9:06 AM

The whole process was to show The Black Goo, in those Urns is somewhat connected to Xeno DNA.

The movie originally tried to show us these Connections, that Black Goo + Genetic Material = Hybrid of Original Organism and Xeno DNA

The Changes to Concept, and cuts to the movie made it confusing.... if we looked at the Sacrificial Scenes in Both Spaights and Lindeloffs draft then Fifield Scenes in the drafts (no the movie) and find common ground between Sacrificial Goo/Scarabs and Urns Goo/Scarabs then the connection is much more easy to see.

Compare these, and if these was shown and not the Toxic Avenger Fifield....

And we had seen more of the Trilobite scene, as you have to wonder how Originally the Engineer got burnt... i have covered this before...

 

Then the Xeno connection is more simple.. its not a mess

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-05-2016 9:28 AM

Alien Engineers (Spaights) Fifield After Transformation

"The label stencilled on the space suit reads FIFIELD. But the
face is of no human shape. A hideous hybrid of the crewman
and a hard-shelled Alien, pale and horrific.
Its helmet has been shattered by the growth of its elongate
skull. Spines have burst through the suit from within, down
the crewman’s spine. Clawed fingers piercing his gloves."

Paradise (Lindeloff) Fifield after Transformation

"We only get quick glimpses of what was once FIFIELD -- It
moves so damn FAST -- It’s BIG though -- FERAL AND ANGRY"

"FIFIELD turns his attention on them -- NARROW ELONGATED HEAD
that has PUNCHED THROUGH THE HELMET OF HIS TATTERED SPACESUIT
-- GREY GLISTENING SKIN -- HE RISES TO HIS FULL HEIGHT"

Concept Works above...  Actual Worked on Props Below.

 

The drafts even describe the transformation scenes, with Spaights being more detailed.

"FLASH ON:
The microscopic world - as strange DNA invades Fifield’s
bloodstream. Virulent strands of protein attack the native
DNA, transforming...
FIFIELD
As his pupils dilate, breath hissing into his nostrils. His
expanding body stiffens as if shocked by a powerful electric
current. He screams. Falls, convulsing."

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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