Important reading: Everything that explains \'Alien\' and it\'s connection to \'Prometheus\'.Pinned Topic15,220 Views145 RepliesAdd A Reply
Yes, but BigDave, in the end the scene with Dallas, Brett and the so-called Egg-Morph thing got re-instated to the DVD remastered re-release. So it is now part of the imagined Alien 'universe' and so now part of 'canon' aswell. It was deleted but it is now reinstated for good so it's official as far as DVD viewing goes.
So Egg-Morphing and Egg-Laying go hand-in-hand as either-or as far as canon goes. Both concepts are right or defers to either one-or-the-other provided what the given enviromental cir***stances and conditions are prevalent at the time.
started by Necronom4 in Aug 2012, BigDave already had the idea for the engineers being under the elders and a hierarchy as a slave race.
I never saw this until now.
Bigdave you were at least 6 months ahead of me.
The most controversial aspect of the Engineer however was his relationship to the Space Jockey, ie: the Jockey was only one component of this gargantuan being; a suit or instrument. The real creature lay within.
“The giant [in Alien] was conceived as a skeleton,” Ridley Scott admitted. “I kept staring at the skeleton … then I thought, twenty, thirty, actually twenty six years on, ‘what if this is not a skeleton, but we only see it as a skeleton because of our own indoctrination?’ and I thought, ‘what happens if it’s another form of protection, or a suit? If it’s a suit, then what’s inside the suit?'”
“It could be a degraded suit,” Scott says in Prometheus: The Art of the Film. “It’s only you saying that because you think you’re looking at bone structure and a ribcage. Why isn’t that a suit? It’s been lying there disintegrating for two or three thousand years in deep cold; that could be a suit. The suit works great as a kind of organic, very sophisticated spacesuit.”
So Ridley never abandoned the skeleton idea from starbeast.
Posted 18 May 2015
“I think that was,” said Neville Page regarding the Space Jockey-Engineer, “and I’m guessing here quite honestly, that it was a bit of reverse engineering. I’m not sure how much Ridley knew when he was doing the first film that the elephantine face was going to be a helmet.”
Neville admitted that though they were retconning the original Space Jockey, it didn’t seem like a challenge to imagine that the ossified creature could be, essentially, a biomechanical life-support machine:
“It was a matter of shoehorning the Engineer into that device and being able to have him revealed so that he does look like the iconic Florentine sculptures that Ridley referenced in the ‘Art of’ book. Trying to have it be human yet knowing that that elephantine structure could not be a human head. It was pretty easy to just imagine that that’s some kind of specialized space helmet shell device.”
So is Prometheus perhaps a retcon after all ??
Posted: 18 May 2015
Creature conceptual artist Carlos Huante also provided designs for the Engineers, though he was not entirely satisfied with the end result: “I wasn’t entirely happy with the Engineer design” he told AVPGalaxy. “I thought it was great in theory but I thought it was going to be very difficult in application. And then after the design was settled on, we discussed the fabrication issues I foresaw. I predicted that the Engineers could end up looking fat or thick with bellies if they added too much rubber build up for the suit. Then the costume over all that rubber I thought they’re going to look fat for sure, which they did. So… There’s that.”
Posted 28 May 2015
Neville Paige also studied Industrial Design. Same as HR Giger.
Neville Paige explaining that the David statue - The Statue of Liberty - Elvis Pressley was involved in designing the engineers
posted on 28 May 2015
Neville Page on Alien
HE says Alien is perfect
@ Oduodu, Ya...Right!?
Isle of Skye cave painting. Note the animal at the bottom.
Posted 4 June 2015
Posted 9 Aug 2015
Brilliand thread started by Shambs about the similarity between Prometheus and at the Mountains of
posted 14 aug 2015
On a different forum member Hudafuk made the point about Shaw stumbling stapled and bloodied into Welyland ' s presence and not being surprised about it or anyone being concerned.
My response was that it may have been that David and the crew was already aware about her and what happened. It remains a good point though. Prometheus has faults that is so. I also gleaned from that discussion that it may have had something to do with the rearangin of scenes as the fifield attack was supposed to still happen.
The member Hudafuk indicated that he thought the rearanging of the scenes was for the purpose of changing the pacing of the film.
I thought it worth sharing and credit to Hudafuk.
Necronom4's thread on the effect of HP Lovecarft on the Alien script.
This is a link to the a thread started by Necronom4.
This thread is asking some of the basic questions I always wanted answers on.
The above mentioned thread is showing the relationship between HP Lovecraft and Dan o' Bannon's writing on the Alien script. Very interesting. Especially how Total Recall and Alien originated from the same minds.
Important thread to study.
This is from a post by me in the thread about the influence of Hp Lovecraft’s work on the Alien script written by Dan O Bannon.
The Cthulhu creature bears a Resemblance to the Space Jockey and it seems as is suggested in this thread of the mural in Prometheus. I now wonderif perhaps the the horned creature in the picture of the engineer elder Pointing to the starmap or pictogram was perhaps a creature shunned In favour of the Xenomorph type Creature.
I have looked at the pictures you and BigDave posted. So the idea for the Space Jockey being a suit was perhaps Ridley’s and not o' Bannon's. So perhaps the Space Jockey is a derivative of the Cthulhu creature you posted a picture of and perhaps the Space Jockey in Alien wasn't a suit but in fact a Cthulu creature that could be Called an elder and that the Engineer is a cross of this creatureAnd humans. This could fit in nicely with my slave race theory since the Cthulu creaure is gods and they do indeed exist if I read correctly outside our dimension.Like I predicted the elders might be. So perhaps the Xenomorph as a relative of The yor soggoth is perhaps a godLike type of pet as sometimes kings would have a tiger or lion on a chain near their throne and would sometimes let them feed onTheir enemies they have conquered therefore perhaps the Space Jockey humanoids are carrying eggs of Xenomorph’s that these Cthulhu elders or deities have commanded them to drop
On other deities planets as to compare whose "pets" are the strongest. Maybe its just a game for them and mankind was perhaps not showing the Respect to the Cthulhu as they Were created as lesser race to
Perhaps test the Xenomorph 's strengthAnd had to be removed becauseWe no longer served this purpose. So the Space Jockey's are interstellar lesser versions of the Cthulu and the engineers are a cross between mankind and the and the Cthulu to perhaps test different aspectsOf our design. This could fit nicely with my hierarchy slave race theory and perhaps the Xenomorph is like the pets of the god that is being in an
interstellar game of war between the gods.
This fits nice indeed.
Towards the end of thread started by Necronom4 mentioned above he posts a link to the Engineer mythos.
This is a must read for anyone who wants to understand Alien and Prometheus and their relationship to each other better.
Its found at Valaquen's Strange Shapes website.
All credit to Necronom4 !!
Also as Svanya has said many Times the Strange Shapes Website is wonderful.
So perhaps this is a good place for anyone to start reading if you would like to enhance your understanding of the Alien Prometheus Universe.
So it seems the slave race theory might not be as far fetched at all is it is mentioned in the engineer mythos article linked in the above mentioned thread.
Here is a screenshot of the Prometheus draft i found in a video about David Fassbender. It seems to be a part of the Furious Gods do***entary.
Note the 78E .
Is this page 78 of the E draft of Prometheus ?? Also note that Shaw head's to the exploded engineer head with a syringe to extract a tissue sample.
I dont remember that in Prometheus.
Or am I wrong ??
Any thoughts ??
Here's the picture:
Check this out.
Who says there were no guns in alien ??
The Engineer was also originally planned to match the gargantuan height of the original Space Jockey. Jon Spaihts’ script takes a close look at one Engineer corpse, revealing that: “If he were standing he would be fifteen feet tall. He is roughly human in shape. Barrel-chested. Withered to the bone. there are bulky protrusions fused with his flesh: hard to say whether they are equipment or parts of his body. His head, lolling to one side, is severed from his body.” The Engineer was later shortened to make him practical to shoot on film, and for an actor to portray convincingly.
It seems the engineers were just shortened for practical reasons from 12 - 15 feet to 8 - 9 feet !
That's that .....
“It certainly should explain what the Alien is and where it comes from,” he told Omni’s Screen Flights/Screen Fantasies in 1984. “That will be tough because it will require dealing with other planets, worlds, civilisations. Because obviously the Alien did come from some sort of civilisation. The Alien was presented, really, as one of the last survivors of Mars – a planet named after the god of war. The Alien may be one of the last descendants of some long-lost self-destructed group of beings.”
Ridley also explained to Cinefantastique that “’in many respects it’ll be more interesting [than the first movie], from a pure science-fiction stand point. We’d get into speculative areas, deal with two civilisations.”
@Odu; I love this thread bud! You've done a great job of putting it all together! Please keep it up!!!
The poster was good though!
I appreciate it hope this thread sparks interest in a new generation of Alien Universe fans.
The The Strange Shape Website is a good place to start. There is just so many small details that will be lost in the passage of time.
I hope this thread sparks interest in many younger people who when realising the connection between Alien and Prometheus will now immerse themselves in the Alien universe.
But strange shapes is doing a great job of that.
It is simply superb.
Xeno alpha 07 and the owner seems to be friends.
It would be interesting to have a thread where these 2 could be interviewed as in how they got to
start the websites etc like the interview Unleashthefanboy did with Chris.
Form this article at strange shapes:
Even series producer Walter Hill referred toAlien 3as “another complete ****ing mess,” and went on to explain, “The studio wanted to crank out another one … David [Giler] and I were a bit sick of it, and wanted to end the whole thing … Fifteen years later, and we’re still in hotel rooms rewritingAlien …We had nothing to do [withAlien Resurrection], didn’t even think it was a good idea for starters, we thought we had ended the series … Personally, I think it’s a lousy movie.”
Ridley Scott also found the idea of Aliens on Earth to be less enticing than exploring the origin of the creatures: “Earth would be interesting, and there is talk about it … I say we should go back to where the Alien creatures were first found and explain how they were created. No one has ever explained why. I always figured that a battleship carrying bio-mechanical organisms that could be weapons was sent into space with some Space Jockey who didn’t last long.” He elaborated on his vision ofAlien 5further: “I had an idea for a fifth installment in the series. It would be all about the Aliens themselves: what their world and civilization are like. What made them tick. We always thought of that derelict spacecraft, where they found all the eggs in the first one, as a sort of aircraft carrier or bomber. They would drop the eggs on the planets they wanted to conquer, then come back a few years later after the landscape had been ‘cleared,’ so to speak.”
Ridley’s idea about exploring the culture which originated the Aliens was a persistent one.Alien‘s associate producer, and friend to Scott, Ivor Powell, claimed to be fascinated by the same theme: “I would have gone before [Alien], that’s what I find interesting. I want to know who that Space Jockey is. What are the Aliens doing in the silo? Are they armaments, are they shipping them somewhere?” Journalist Paul Sammon, author ofFuture Noir: The Making of Blade Runner, expressed interest in the same idea, pointing to the untapped lore lying behind the original film: “Despite the fact that there have been four films in the saga so far, there are still all these unanswered questions that the original brought up. Like, what’s the deal with LV-426? Where did the original Alien race come from? Who are they, really? What are they? Who was the Space Jockey? Why did it have all those eggs on a crashed ship? I mean, the firstAlienhinted at a whole backstory that hasn’t been explored in the saga yet.”
Despite the intense curiosity in such themes and storylines, Fox was still touting Joss Whedon as the pen behind their planned Alien 5.
So both as a sequel or a prequel Ridley makes it very clear what he would have done.
He would have gone into origin of the Xeno as well as the civilisations that created them and that the sj 's were conquering other planets with the Xenos as bio weapons.
So the engineers are probably closely tied to the creation of this Xeno creature. Spaihts draft reflects this as the facehuggers are weaponised Octopoid encephelapod creatures discovered in the caves of LV 426.
This ties into what Ridley wanted as I have speculated. I think the alien5 or alien prequel that Ridley wanted was written.
It was the Alien Engineers draft by Jon Spaihts.
But I understand why fox did what they did.
I am just tired of Ridley being blamed as the sole proprietor of the Prometheus we got.
Just wanted to make the point.
And then to my surprise even Giler and Hill wasn't eager for a third movie.
Posted 20 August 2015
This is a screenshot from Alien. this clearly shows that Weyland Yutani knew that there was a lifeform on LV 426 long before the Nostromo crew left Thedus.
How did Weyland Yutani know this ??
My compliments to Valaquen:
This artcle is fantastic
I am left with the impression that when you ask Jon Spaihts to write an alien prequel thats exactly what he did.
So you have lv 426 with an undergroud atmosphere processor caves that have octopoid facehuggers and 8 stasis fields full of eggs each slighly different form the other.
Is Jon Spaihts suggesting that the stasis fields is in fact part of the complex and not of the ship ??
Is jon spaihts trying to explain the size of the stasis fields being to large to fit inside the derelict ??
So is he suggesting then that the stasis fields is infact a subterenean cavern ??
So then he would be saying that the colony on lv 426 was in fact just a way to hide the technology that was there like they do in the series "In Plain Sight" aka Federal Witness Protection program.
Plausable deniability ?? Was that the true purpose of the Nostromo and crew.
They use tecnology derived from the engineers atmosphere processor technology and thereby hide the caverns that are now probably sealed and locked and will lead someone to the caverns below the derelict. They hide it by simply puttting people there so that other companies perhaps tracking in that area wouldn't be abe to identify the jugg and the underground structures.
Now that could mean that the Weland Yutani has already obtained a xeno to get back to earth in the time they established the colony there ??
This could explain why they sent a Marine team and leader with very little experience and who couldn't handle pressure. They simply wanted the mission to fail and got rid of Ripley and all the people there.
They already got a xeno decades before that and simply wanted pausible deniability.
Then who is to say that the egg that found its way into the EEV wasnt done by Weyland Yutani ?? That perhaps a second Bishop unbeknownst to everyone was hiding on the ship and that he was responsible for getting the egg without anyone 's knowledge.
That Carter J Burke was actually just being played by Weyland Yutani as he was nowhere near the core of the people who runs the show and that he actually played nicely into their hands.
And that when Bishop?Charles Weyland arrived on the Fiorina 161 to prevent Ripley from committing suicide he was actually just there to prevent anyone alse from getting their hands on it and making sure that Ripley actually died ?
Is this what Jon Spaihts had in mind ?? (as to somehow a preamble to make ecerything fit ??)
That the Nostromo landed on lv 426 seven years later because the company had already been there and once again wanted plausible deniability for what happened on the Nostromo so that could have an excuse for developing the technology that would come from the xeno and everything that was discovered there.
That this was the true purpose of the Nostromo redirection and Ash ??
So all coroborating evidence would point to a purely co incedental discovery and that all the mess on LV 426 was cleared in those few years ?? Like the bodies of Vickers body guards have been removed ??
Is this why they wanted a ship with very little of the technology of the time to do the "research" so that there is no tech to kill the xeno ??
I wonder .......
Is this perhaps why the blood and tissue samples were just frozen (since Weyland Yutani wanted things to quiet down after the events of Aliens in 2179) and after Walmart bought Weyland Yutani they were re researched and cloned since enough time passed and they could move their research into deep space ????
Valaquen says the following:
Personally, I disagree – humanity stumbling upon the unknown and unrelatable was the source of much ofAlien’s power. Whilst Grecian-esque creator gods are a fascinating idea, I never felt that they necessarily had to be the biomechanic Space Jockey race. Fans were fascinated with the ‘abstraction’ for three decades. More than that – it awed, intrigued, and scared them. An irreversible trade-off was made here with the combination of the two races.
I totaly agree with this statement.
I have enormous respect for Jon Spaihts and his draft but I feel too that we should have been a distinct species from those who created the xeno and that our creators were perhaps also the ones that created the engineers but a very long time ago.
Just my opinion.
I think Jon tried his best to make everything fit and be canon and it seems that no one noticed the intent.
Thank you !!!