Alien: Covenant

The FINAL Canon Debate

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Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-25-2012 9:33 AMMany, many times other members and myself have put forward the possibility that the following film franchises all exist within the same fictional universe and are thus all canon to one another... [center][b]Predator - AVP - Prometheus - Alien[/b][/center] ...Yet many, many naysayers and detractors voice their opinions stating this is not the case. 9 times out of 10, such arguments are subjective, from individuals whom don't like the idea. Now, while some of those supporting the idea of these franchises existing within the same universe may also have subjective arguments, I do not. I have looked at this debate from an objective point of view and always reach the same conclusions... - There is more information in the movies to suggest they are all set within the same fictional universe - There is no contradictory information in the movies that states otherwise - There has not been any official statement stating otherwise To that end I challenge the naysayers to disprove, with verifiable sources for their information and statements, why these franchises are not part of the same universe.

192 Responses to The FINAL Canon Debate

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPJul-31-2012 3:22 PM@craigamore Cheers, I have to admit I have really enjoyed this debate with Snorkel. I relished the challenge. Snorkel fairly pushed me hard to back up my view, to the point that I now know how to set up a corporation hahahaha. To be fair to Snorkel there is a lot of evidence to back up the AVP side but it’s definitely not the side I’m on. Im with Prometheus on this one.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPAug-01-2012 10:32 AM@Snorkel, so where do we stand? Have i managed to convince you? Are we going to continue the debate? Agree to disagree?

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Pointblank

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-01-2012 7:57 PM@Snorkelbottom, I visited the Weylandutani web site and saw the timeline there. I just enjoyed reading the web site because I liked the android character so much in Aliens. I really cannot decide whether all these movie fit into one canon. Like you said there is a lot of evidence in the movies themselves to suggest that they at least try to make them relate to one another. Although for the record I want to state that I think most of the AVP movies were complete crap and the last Alien film was complete BS! Also, I have read a lot of the books on the Aliens and they differ quite a bit as to what and where the aliens really come from and the Engineers. Snorkelbottom what makes me angry most of all is that these directors had good budgets to work with and could have stuck to better standards when making these movies but they did not and so we have what we have. Believe me I am still a hard core Sci-Fi Alien loving fan to this day and I want the franchise to continue. So what it does come down to when you are producing these movies is keeping this whole thing together. Once you splinter it the audience becomes just as conflicted as we are right now and it causes problems. Honestly Snorkelbotom Ridley is just getting us warmed up for the real movies he will produce. Enough money has come in from Prometheus that they now cannot pass up sequals…they are planning even better special effects right now and hopefully a plot that makes has better continuity. I do not think we should underestimate Ridley just yet because he is going give us a movie that shows us who and what these Engineers really are. The implications of this type of plot are endless and completely unpredictable. I know you what to have this whole thing work together in a way that makes viewing all the movies make sense but unfortunately too much time has passed and too many other people have gotten ahold of the rights to produce these films. I have faith in Ridley that he will make this right in the next movie. When I was younger I used to love to paint. Now at best I admire or appreciate the works of other artists. I know what I like and so do you. Hopefully we will get lucky and Ridley will deliver something more of his real directing and producing capabilities in the sequel to Prometheus. Snorkelbottom sometimes you these things are so complex even the directors, writers, and producers cannot agree on how to produce a movie because the franchise has fractured so much. They do the best they can. We cannot honestly say that they all wanted to ruin our movie experience, produce something of inferior quality, make sure that we would never go see another film, and ruin the entire franchise. This is not what they had in mind. They maybe tried to give us the best they could give with the budget they had and I think they did a pretty good job with Prometheus. I know I could not have done better.

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-02-2012 1:05 PMThe argument can't end here....thAT would not be any kind of fun I've ever known or would care to...the show must go on.......that's it....have at it then......

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-02-2012 2:35 PM@ ETB... No offense but the challenge remains unanswered. Yes you have stated, or should I say reiterated information found on weylandindustries.com. And although your arguments have been well thought and implemented they do not detract away from the point that Weyland Industries and Weyland Corp first appeared in AVP. Yes I know what it says on the timeline on the aforementioned site but the evidence is there for all to see, and I am sure that, as some have theorised and postulated, there would be a viable way for CB Weylands company(s) to have been later legally "recognized". Yes this is hypothetical speculation and theory, but I remind you that nothing on the website, or in the film Prometheus directly contradicts anything "put forward" in the 2 AVP films. If that means agree to disagree on your terms then so be it, but remember - if the intention of the website was to retcon the AVP films from continuity, then why use the same company names, have the CEO be born before CB Weylands death, with Weyland as his last name and with Yutani as a competitor... the makers of Prometheus changing one or all of those aspects would have erased the AVP films from continuity and thus this argument would be mute, but they did not. Also may I be inclined to say something... I have seen a lot of people calling Prometheus venomously or defending Prometheus naively. Lets be bluntly honest Prometheus is not a masterpiece, and it is also not a plothole ridden cesspool (the film only contains one plothole). Prometheus is what it is; a dark sci-fi adventure film, nothing more, nothing less. It is a film that started out as a direct prequel (which if made "fans" would be calling it for being another Alien film, and inconsistent), that was changed to become something more ambiguous (too ambiguous for many, not enough for some), using a whole host of unused, recycled ideas from Alien. Alien was never a masterpiece, hell it was Ridleys second ever movie. Alien is also what it is; the right people, in the right place at the right time made a movie in the right way. It is no masterpiece, there are more errors in Alien than in Prometheus. Yet they are accepted through rose tinted spectacles. Then we get to the core of what this thread is about "canonicity", and what does and doesn't qualify as canon. Despite all the to and fro's in this debate, be it in this thread or others on this or other forums it always boils down to 4 options... - The Original, those that consider Alien as the only canon - Preference, those that consider what they like as canon - Franchise, those that only consider the Alien films and Prometheus as canon - The Whole, those that consider everything as canon (Predator/AVP/Prometheus/Alien) ...And no matter how many times the debate is aired or invited into discussion not one of the four above definitions is settled upon, because of the subjectivity of everyones opinions. If FOX turned around tomorrow and declared the AVP films as non-canon I would gladly accept it along with those that would cherish the declaration. But until that time I prefer to look at all 10 films as installments within one large franchise, set within one universe... Why? Because it opens up possibilities and choices for the narrative. Because it gives this fictional universe different shades than just those stagnated colors of the original, mother franchises. Because, like Shaw said in Prometheus, its what I choose to believe.

XeNoFan

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-03-2012 8:38 AMI still want to say In AVPR they at least attempted to show us the Predator's home world.I think it's about Dang time we see the Xeno's HOmeworld..I think Everyone would Agree to that...Hopefully the seaquel does this or something???? I like both series and I'll continue to like them regardless of wether or not they're all connected..In my mind they Exsist within the same Universe as far as the COMPANY...Obviously Weyland knew of the Alien"" Yutani knew of the Predator'' So weyland bought out Yutani thus working together to build better Worlds... It all might be hint's or nod's too the comics,novel's,games etc that's why it appears in the later film's or cross-over's( avp, avpR A4) but whatever the case the card's fell where they did there is not much to do now other then Enjoy the film's for What they are Worth.........And im searching for it now.. There is a Alien's comic where a Spacejockey gets facehugged but the creature is not the deacon sooooooo.....This can go on forever Honestly..........

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-03-2012 11:24 AM"there are more errors in Alien than in Prometheus." Really Snork? Really? [i]Prometheus[/i] has far more problems with its logic than [i]Alien[/i] ever has and to suggest that the latter has more holes in it than the former is beyond ridiculous. With all do respect my friend, [i]Alien[/i] is a masterpiece and to suggest that [i]Prometheus[/i] is at all superior is unfounded and beyond the pale.

FREEZE!

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-03-2012 12:10 PMI'm not touching this debate, lol, not even with a ten foot pole! (avp is not canon, shhh!) : )
[url=http://www.madmax4-movie.com/]Visit the Mad Max: Fury Road Forums today![/url]

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPAug-03-2012 6:01 PM@snorkel, happy days the debate continues. Before I start, I have to use the website for now because I can’t put Prometheus on and watch so it’s all I have at the minute. That being said, I have two points about the website I would like to state. 1. The videos on the site have characters from the film in them (Weyland’s TED talk and Shaw’s interview). They aren’t in the film but are a part of the film much like a trailer would be (I say like a trailer because you get scenes in trailers which aren’t in the final film). 2. When I was on the site I happened to look at Legal. It’s under ABOUT THE MISSION on the dropdown menu of the main page. When I hovered over legal, it brought up the films legal information. Not information about the site but the information for the film. Since the website falls under the films legal remit then it is a part of the film. It may not be in the film but the website itself and everything in it is a part of it. So, everything on that website is about the film. None of it is fanmade, it is all legit and is the internal information about the film you don’t get to see on the screen. Like I said before it was done for gaining more hype and fans for the release. Now you say : [i]…..if the intention of the website was to retcon the AVP films from continuity, then why use the same company names, have the CEO be born before CB Weylands death, with Weyland as his last name and with Yutani as a competitor... the makers of Prometheus changing one or all of those aspects would have erased the AVP films from continuity and thus this argument would be mute, but they did not.[/i] To be honest there’s a lot they could have said or done to retcon AVP. They did tell us that the company was founded after 2004 (AVP), 8 years later in 2012. According to Weyland Industries/Prometheus timeline, Weyland corp/industries didn’t exist before 2012.The two are not compatible whatever way you look at it. It may not have been said on a screen but that’s what the owners of Prometheus are telling you. On the subject of CB Weyland dying and the company falling apart in which Peter Weyland can resurrect the company. In AVP CB Weyland was worried about dying and not leaving his mark in history. The events of AVP are his way securing his name in the history books. He knew everything would just move on and nothing much would change. He even says: [i]"You know, when you get sick, you think about your life and how you're going to be remembered. You know what I realized would happen when I go? A ten percent fall in share prices. Maybe twelve. And that's it. I need this." [/i] Now a company can go into dissolution and then have a court-ordered restoration with the same name. I got this from a website developed by Companies House. [i]The general effect of restoration is that the business is deemed to have continued in existence as if it had not been dissolved or struck off the register. [/i][u][b][/b][/u] That means they would still have to publish records dating before and after the company winding down. One thing I will agree on is that it is ultimately up to ourselves to decide what we do and what we don’t want as canon. There is no official statement like you said on what is and isn’t. If they did say that Predators are canon with Alien then I would accept that.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-04-2012 8:04 AM@ ETB... No offense but you have got caught up in one singular aspect that you believe retcons AVP out of continuity with Alien and Prometheus - Weyland Corporation/Industries. Although I understand the perspective you seem to be taking with this argument you are unfortunately missing the point... If regarding Prometheus and its viral marketing they had... - Stated Peter Weyland was born after August 2005 (which would have made him 89 in the movie and thus more plausible). - Stated that the companies name had never been Weyland Corporation/Industries. - Stated that the company itself maybe existed before that shown in AVP. - Shown Yutani as an associate, possibly even a Japanese branch of Weylands company. ...Then it would be clear that CB Weylands and Peter Weylands companies were unrelated and thus AVP had been retconned out of existence. This is not the case and thus the AVP movies still remain in contention. It does not state on the site that Weyland Corporation was founded in 2012, it states that is when it was recognized in the US/UK, the company could well have existed beforehand. Now to the endless referring of Corporate law and legislation. These things are governed by one thing and one thing only - money. Could a fathers company go under only to be resurrected by his son, with the son claiming he founded it, if his wallet is deep enough then yes. Is it possible that a company can ignore or rewrite entire elements of its past, if their wallet is deep enough then yes... - Is there any mention on Coco Cola's website that at the turn of the twentieth century there cold drinks products contained the ingredient Cocaine (hence the Coca in their name)? - Is there any mention on the Warbutons website that in the same time period they employed child labor? - Is there any mention on the Nike/Adidas webistes that their products are produced by child labor? - Is there any mention on Tesco's website that their "Everyday Value" baked beans are sourced from discarded "Branded" suppliers? ...the answers would be NO. Why? Corporate image and marketing, bought with cold hard cash.

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-04-2012 1:07 PMSnork........Engineer Tech Brett has very good points here and I tend to agree with him. For starters he contends that that the following statement proves that Weyland Corp/Industries was NOT in existence as a recognized entity before 2012, making the Weyland Industries of 2004 in [i]AVP[/i] invalid: "Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity and corporation under United States law and receives their Certificate of Incorporation from the Companies House in the United Kingdom." I would agree with ETB. You would not agree, claiming that, "It does not state on the site that Weyland Corporation was founded in 2012, it states that is when it was recognized in the US/UK, the company could well have existed beforehand." As ETB recounts, Weyland says the following in [i]AVP[/i], "[i]You know, when you get sick, you think about your life and how you're going to be remembered. You know what I realized would happen when I go? [b]A ten percent fall in share prices.[/b] Maybe twelve. And that's it. I need this[/i]." Notice the highlighted sentence, "[b]A ten percent fall in share prices.[/b]" Until recognized as a legal, incorporated entity, no company can issue or trade shares in any way, founded or not. Therefor, prior to 2012, there are NO shares being traded and thus, there is no price to rise or fall. Also, the site states the following: "March 27, 2015: Weyland Industries launches first industrialized space mission to install solar panels that align and move in Earth’s orbital plane but at an axial tilt, imitating a perpetual summer solstice." Given this statement, it contradicts the the existence of Weyland's satellite in 2004 as no industrialized space mission existed prior to 2015. There's also this, "Sir Peter Weyland was born in Mumbai, India at the turn of the millennium. The progeny of two brilliant parents (his mother, an Oxford-educated Professor of Comparative Mythology and his father, [b]a self-taught software engineer[/b]). There is no suggestion in [i]AVP[/i] suggesting C.B. Weyland was a software engineer, that he was married or had kids. Indeed, if the man is bloody worried about his legacy, would he not be aware at that point that his wife was pregnant? Granted, [i]Prometheus[/i] was written second of the two and it's an impossible standard. However, if the the makers of [i]Prometheus[/i] saw there film as anything but a reboot of the franchise post [i]Alien Resurrection[/i], then they would have taken pains to connect the Weyland of [i]AVP[/i] with that of [i]Prometheus[/i]. I see what your saying Snork, I do, but here's where it gets convoluted and messy to accept both. We keep going back and forth about how one would logically fit or not with the other, all the while ignoring a point that cannot be reconciled. The backstory of [i]Prometheus[/i] on weylandindustries.com makes a point of literally ignoring any fact of a billionare Weyland prior to Peter. Even if Charles Bishop Weyland's corporation existed prior to Peter's and even if it dissolved and was reformed by an heir, and even if the makers of [i]Prometheus[/i], accepted the relevance of [i]AVP[/i], there is no way a corporation that size, or any size, would neglect to recognize the existence of the prior company and its founder in an official history of its existence. Just for the sake of argument, let's say that C.B. Weyland's company did fall apart after his disappearance in 2004 and his heir Peter reformed it in 2012 and things moved on from there. How are we to believe that the heir of such an important man in C.B. Weyland would not take credit for the mammoth task of reinvigorating a failing enterprize or saving his father's company for that matter? How are we to believe that a history of Weyland Corp/Industries would not mention its glory days with Charles at the helm, prior to Peter's reformation? How are we to believe that this history would neglect to mention Charles Bishop Weyland's disappearance at all? The elephant in the room is the absence of C.B. from this history. That it mentions a nameless father from Mumbai without the massive accomplishments of an industrialist having formed a corporation that has satellites in orbit and can fund that kind of expedition to Antarctica is the proof of [i]AVP[/i]'s cancellation. Peter's father and mother from Mumbai are almost complete afterthoughts in the telling of his backstory. That there is no detailing of any family connection to any other billionare industrialist is the evidence of C.B. Weyland's irrelevance. As there is no mention of C.B. or the company prior to incorporation in 2021, then neither exists. To address your argument specifically, that "the company could well have existed beforehand," I simply have the following to say; if that were true, then the official statement in this corporate histroy would read as follows: "Weyland Corporation is [b]once again[/b] recognized as a legal entity and corporation under United States law and receives their Certificate of [b]Re-[/b]Incorporation from the Companies House in the United Kingdom. Due to the combined value of Sir Peter Weyland’s various patents and patent-pendings, the company incorporates with a higher fair market valuation than any other company in history." It fails to do so and this lack of acknowledgement is all the proof necessary to negate the validity of [i]Alien vs. Predator[/i]....

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-04-2012 2:02 PM@ craigamore/ETB... The basis of that argument stems from weylandindustries.com, not Prometheus, and whether or not the content can be viewed as canon in itself, or at the very least a source of canonical information, which as I've mentioned before calls the website into question. Not only does the site link to content not present in the movie, it also links to trailers, which themselves contain scenes not present or different to those in Prometheus. And the questioning of the sites canonicity extends further with the powerloader image, itself identical to the P5000 Powerloader seen in Aliens (123 years after its development it remains identical?!?)... [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4ljfyWUgC1qa1o5zo1_500.jpg[/img] [img]http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FSrcMaid0mg/0.jpg[/img] Then there is of course the biggest contradiction on the site which would be the following statement from the corporate timeline... [center][i]NOBEL PEACE PRIZE Sir Peter Weyland is awarded the Nobel Peace prize in Medicine for his cancer cure. FEBRUARY 4, 2023[/i][/center] ...yet, and you know where this is going, in 2177 (154 years later) Ellen Ripleys daughter Amanda Ripley McClaren... [img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120607064653/alienanthology/images/3/30/Amanda_Ripley_profile.jpg[/img] ...died of cancer.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-05-2012 8:07 AM@ Craigamore... So, after finding a cure for 98% of cancers, in the following 154 years they are unable to cure the other 2%. Amanda Ripley McClaren was 66 years old when she died, a mere pup compared to the age of Weyland when he died at 103 years old, there deaths themselves seperated by 84 years. So despite being in service for 123 years the Powerloader is never improved, its design not streamlined, its materials not replaced with new alloys. We are to believe these things, take them as plausible possibilities, but not the possibility that Peter Weyland wrote C.B. Weyland out of the history books, to take all the credit for himself.

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-05-2012 12:04 PMSnork....in both cases, the cancer and the powerloader, neither has any import as to the relevance of C.B. Weyland's absence from the timeline. As to the cancer, people die all the time when cures exist. Also, as I said, 2% percent of cancers still had no cure and that's all we need to know. It is plausible for science to hit a wall despite its other discoveries. It happens you know. As for the powerloader, Inventions do reach a point where no new innovation is necessary for them to do the job that is required of them. There is nothing there to suggest that it wasn't improved and nothing to suggest that it was. Besides, who cares? Neither of these points has any berring on the C.B./Peter debate. Now, you ask the following: "We are to believe these things, take them as plausible possibilities, but not the possibility that Peter Weyland wrote C.B. Weyland out of the history books, to take all the credit for himself?" You push the possibility that Peter was such as egoist as to wipe the founder of one of the largest corporations in human history from that company's very history whensuch an egoist could rightfully claim the honor and credit for saving that very company from the ashes of its founder's mysterious death? What egoist, let alone average person, would realistically do that when it would only socially and politically benefit Peter to trumpet the success of his renaissance of Weyland Corp./Industries? Besides that the questions remain: - How are we to believe that the heir of such an important man in C.B. Weyland would not take credit for the mammoth task of reinvigorating a failing enterprize or saving his father's company for that matter? - How are we to believe that a history of Weyland Corp/Industries would not mention its glory days with Charles at the helm, prior to Peter's reformation? - How are we to believe that this history would neglect to mention Charles Bishop Weyland's disappearance, let alone the man himself at all? Those points go beyond reason here. They defy reasonable plausability in the manner with which any company would operate. If we are to accept your version of events here, then the first Weyland Corp./Industries would be one of the largest in our history. A company that size would never neglect its founding, the earliest years of its existence or any of its innovations, patents, inventions in a listing of its history; even with the further accomplishments of Peter. It would only do Peter and the company good to trumpet a renaissance, a reformation, a new birth of itself with an acknowledgment of its past, its founding. Even beyond that, as C.B. himself said, "You know what I realized would happen when I go? A ten percent fall in share prices. Maybe twelve. And that's it. I need this." A ten or twelve percent fall in share prices is not going to end a company that size. It'll hurt, that we can be sure of, but a mammoth operation such as Weyland would not fold that quickly as to need re-incorporation. It's all too much to accept here. The fact remains that C.B. does not fit with the new, rebooted timeline and that's where it stands. Aswer those questions, please..... - How are we to believe that the heir of such an important man in C.B. Weyland would not take credit for the mammoth task of reinvigorating a failing enterprize or saving his father's company for that matter? - How are we to believe that a history of Weyland Corp/Industries would not mention its glory days with Charles at the helm, prior to Peter's reformation? - How are we to believe that this history would neglect to mention Charles Bishop Weyland's disappearance, let alone the man himself at all?

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-05-2012 12:42 PM@ craigamore... The answer to your questions - Because it serves Peter Weyland to do so... - Why be seen as the the resurrector of anothers company when you can be seen as the architect of your own. - Glory days, according to whom all C.B. Weyland did was launch a satellite (probably with NASA's assistance), develop some weapons and work on some low-end robotics. These accomplishments fail in comparison to Peters. C.B. Weyland barely took the company anywhere, he was an industrialist, Peter Weyland was a maverick genius, but a megalomanical one at that. - As I have said before, because it serves Peter Weyland to do so. This is a man whom likened himself equal to the gods, whom created the worlds biggest corporation from the ashes of another, whom approached his maker and asked for immortality.

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-06-2012 6:52 PMThat doesn't stnad up to reason though. It's not as though this earlier history is secret information that needs to be hidden from the public. It would be common knowledge that would only appear suspicious in its abscence. A semi-reboot of the franchise that excludes [i]AVP[/i] is the only logical reason for C.B.'s absence.

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPAug-07-2012 4:56 AM@Snork…….. Craigamore is right, a semi-reboot is the only logical explanation. Before I told you about Weyland Corp being mentioned in AVP you were adamant about Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries being different companies. You even said: [i]It is clearly stated above that Peter Weyland is the founder and CEO of Weyland Corporation.[/i] And [i]Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation were not the same company until 2012….[/i] You then watched the start of AVP and said: [i]However, in light of your discovery it seems that Charles Bishop Weyland was actually the founder of both…[/i] But you said it clearly stated that Peter Weyland was the founder. There is no point in trying to connect the films companies between 2004 and 2012 because there is no proof to back it up. It has to be one or the other, AVP or Prometheus. One film has the company around before 2004 and the other doesn’t.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Not_my_intention

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-08-2012 6:56 PMfor the millionth time, avp is not cannon, not because it is bad (and it is) but because it is based on the comic books, making it its own universe. besides, even if it was related to the movies i think it would be part of the predator universe, not the alien universe because they feel a lot more like predator movies then they do alien movies.

Not_my_intention

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-08-2012 6:59 PMand people who say resurrection is non cannon are just insecure, it was bad as hell but its still cannon, no changing it :(

Necronom 4

NeomorphMember1566 XPAug-08-2012 9:39 PMI'm sure there's another thread that deals with this question Snorkelbottom! I don't think the AVP Universe is a part of the Alien universe because the Predators never feature in the Alien Franchise? Maybe its part of the Predator Universe, as there is a Xeno Skull in Predator 2 and Predator 2 inspired the AVP comics (i think?). I don't think the Film makers of either Alien or Predator had the intention of the two being combined into one Universe! Therefore it's only the creators of AVP that had that intention. Damn AVP! IT'S NOT CANON! Ask Ridley, Dan o Bannon or the bloke who created Predator!

The poster was good though!

 

charlesdexterward

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-10-2012 11:12 AMreally great discussion. I think it helps to look at a similar, and possibly related, universe, the works of H.P. Lovecraft. Lovecraft wrote numerous stories, and his friends/fans took them and expanded upon them with their works, creating the "Cthulhu mythos." One in particular, August Derleth, tried to create an actual mythos with good and bad gods drawn from Lovecraft. This attempt is universally rejected now by Lovecraft followers. But the debate hinged not on whether Derleth had the rights to do this--he did--but whether it fit with Lovecraft's original vision, which it didn't. To apply this to Alien/Prometheus/AvP, the logistics of who owns what in Hollywood are confusing, and unfair. But both Scott and Cameron clearly said they don't like the AvP films, so following the above standard they don't fit with the founder's vision (even if you reject Cameron as non-canonical), and so aren't canon. That being said, in the universe of works based on Lovecraft, there are numerous interpretations, not all of which fit together. But the more effective ones were inspiring, while the worse ones--like Derleth's--fell aside. Given that AvP, AvP2, and Alien: Resurrection are pretty bad, and many (like me) wish they weren't made, the "marketplace of ideas" may eventually resolve this debate in favor of AvP not being canon.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-12-2012 11:00 AMSeperate posts so no "Wall of Text" effect... [center][u]Answers to Questions asked[/u][/center] @ necronom 4... - Ask Ridley - he doesn't own any rights, he is just a director, - Ask Dan O'Bannon - firstly, he's dead and secondly, he even suggested an idea that Predator was another stage of the Aliens lifecycle. - Ask "the bloke who created Predator" - Don't you mean blokes, as in plural... Jim & John Thomas. @ Craigamore... Hold on, the possibility of an individuality taking credit for someone elses endeavours doesn't stand up to reason. An individual whom at 14 years old earns his 14th patent, at 22 year old has a company recognized in his name - this is a person born into money (wasn't CB Weyland a billionaire) whom whos used to getting what he wanted, when and how he wanted it... in other words a megalomaniac, whom placed himself in stasis so that he could meet his makers. I dont think its beyond reason that such an individual who attempt to rewrite/eliminate elements of his companies past to make himself look better - I seem to recall a pharoah in Ancient Egypt did the exact same thing (dont remember the name though). @ ETB... Weyland Corporation and Weyland Industries are shown in 2004 in AVP, then again in Prometheus (set 89 years later) yet the argument seems to be that there is no connection - a scenario if you will... A guy named Joe, he's not a sci-fi nerd or an alien fan of any measure, he is your average movie goer. He catches the trailer for Prometheus and thinks "hell yeah" and orders a ticket for the following day at his local cinema to watch the movie. That night he sits down and flicks through the channels on his TV and see's that AVP is on. He watches it and sees the satelite at the beginning "Weyland Corporation Satelite PS12". The following day he goes into the pictures and Prometheus starts, after seeing the Engineer sacrifice himself and the title it comes up with the text "Weyland Corporation"... Joe Bloggs says to himself "Huh, same company"... Now, of course you're saying "hell no", because as you stated in your post - "It has to be one or the other, AVP or Prometheus". Only a Sith deals in absolutes, my objective point of view instead asks why can't it be both. @ Invadezim42... Long time no see. AVP is not based on the comics but from the unused ideas of Alien. The story is simple... In the late 1980's Dark Horse Comics published a series of comics based (loosely) on the 1986 Aliens movie. After the success of 1987's Predator they added stories to the Aliens comic relating to the Predator, following the story of Dutch's brother, a cop. Then in 1989 at the start of the versus craze they had a meeting, one of them (forget his name) took a toilet break. The moment his arse touched the rim of the seat he had an epiphany - Aliens vs Predator. The strip was then added as a couple of pages, per issue, in black and white at the end of each issue of the Aliens comic. When the first issues featuring the AVP strip at the end were rolled out someone involved on Predator 2 (then in production) decided to give a wink to the comic and thus the Alien skull appeared in the trophy display. Straightaway fans went nuts speculating over an AVP movie. James Cameron was even approached and gave the project serious thought, but because she felt that Jim had "sidelined" her character in Aliens, and that the idea of Aliens with Predators in it was a bad idea she demanded that her character be killed off in Alien 3, which was in pre-production at the time, adding even more pressure to the already troubled production of Alien 3. Why am I relating all of this information? Because many naysayers claim that AVP was a cash-in. A cash-in doesn't take 14 years to be made - FOX waited until they had the right story and the right premise before they even dared to think about AVP seriously after what happened in 1990. Enter Paul WS Anderson, whom suggested using unused ideas from Alien and setting the movie on Earth and chronologically between the two mother franchises so that AVP could act as a bridge between the two. Fox, John Davis and Brandywine Productions (whom have been involved in all the Alien and AVP movies and Prometheus) all agreed and the movie was greenlit and made.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-12-2012 11:01 AMLet me try another angle on this debate, rather than defend why the AVP's should be considered canon, I will demonstrate why... Now first of all I agree that AVPR is a terrible film, but it is not on that, subjective, basis alone that these films should be ignored as canon. It should be judged by what it adds to the franchise. In AVPR the "Pred-Alien" is shown (and described in the commentary) to be a juvenile Queen, or a Princess if you will - a mid point between Chestburster and full-blown Queen. Now rather than argue the points for and against this Princess idea I will use one of the movies, albeit amended, to explain the feasibility of this idea... [center][u]Alien 3 - Alternative Version.[/u][/center] En route back to Earth the USS Sulaco experiences an electrical fire when the acidic blood of a Facehugger melts through a panel near to Lt. Ripley's cryo-tube. Under safety protocols the Sulaco drops out of FTL and deploys the 4 occupied cryo-tubes into an EEV, which is then launched to a nearby planet, Fiorina-161, landing just off shore from the planets penal colony. Medical Officer Clemens takes a walk to the beach and sees the EEv slowly sinking into water off shore, on the beach he sees TWO washed up bodies - Hicks and Newt. Clemens shouts back to the colony for assistance and a few prisoners come running. Two of the prisoners carry Hicks to the infirmary as Clemens carries Newt. the remaining prisoners use the crane to pull the EEV out of the water. As Clemens cleans up Hicks and Newt the prisoners extracting the EEV discover the body of Ripley inside her cryo-tube, the glass smashed, an acid burn on the side and an exploded in her chest. Hicks wakes up, and after seeing that Newt is asleep nearby he looks for Ripley. Hicks learns from Clemens that Ripley is dead before asking to see the body. In the morgue, Clemens pulls back the sheet and Hicks straight away notices the hole in her chest and realises why the EEV was launched. A prisoner whispers in Clemens ear reminding him of something else, Clemens then shows Hicks what the prisoners found dead next to Ripley's cryo-tube - a Royal Facehugger. Urged into action Hicks asks where Bishop's remains are, and after retrieving them from the scrap heap heads to the EEV. Placing Bishop in a cryo-tube Hicks then pulls out the EEV's flight recorder and using the EEv's power supply reactivates Bishop. After a brief conversation Hicks gives Bishop an override code before asking a series of questions, from which he learns that the alien specimen inside Ripley was a Queen and that the Company know and are en-route to the planet. Hicks then pulls a panel apart revealing another, which once opened he reaches inside and pulls out a Pulse Rifle (convenient I know, but bare with me...). Meeting with Clemens on the beach where he and Newt were found Hicks, thinks back to LV-426 and asks Clemens if there is an area separated from the penal colony but connected that is spacious and warm. Clemens points towards the lead works foundry... [u]Meanwhile (AVPR NOT Canon)[/u] The Queen Chestburster bursts from Ripley's chest as the EEV dropped through Fiorina-161's atmosphere, escaping the wreckage and swimming towards the Foundry. Finding a secluded and safe nesting area the Chestburster (2-3 feet in length) bursts from its skin and grows into a full sized Queen (18 feet high, 30 feet in length). The Queen then grows an ovipositor from its abdomen and begins laying hordes of eggs. Incapacitated by her vast ovipositor the Queen is unable to arrange the eggs around her, meaning they amass in one corner of the Queens nest. Having been pointed to the location Hicks arrives with his Pulse Rifle and sees the incapacitated, defenceless Queen. Using the Pulse Rifles grenade launcher hicks destorys the pile of eggs, the Queen and then her vast ovipositor. [u]Meanwhile (AVPR IS Canon)[/u] The Queen Chestburster bursts from Ripley's chest as the EEV dropped through Fiorina-161's atmosphere, escaping the wreckage and swimming towards relative safety. Bursting from its skin the Chestburster (2-3 feet in length) grows into a Princess (9 feet tall, 15 feet in length) and hunts down Spike the dog, Murphy as he cleans the vent Shafts, and Boggs and Rains as they measure the tunnels. Implanting them each with a single embryo, which soon burst and grow (4 bellybursters in AVPR because they were pregnant women). Feeling the change coming upon her the princess heads to the Foundry, followed by her brood of 4 warriors/Drones. Finding a secluded and safe nesting area the Princess (9 feet high, 15 feet in length) cocoons herself in her own resin and grows grows into a full sized Queen (18 feet high, 30 feet in length). The Queen then grows an ovipositor from its abdomen and begins laying hordes of eggs. The Warriors/Drones while building the hive suspend the Queens vast ovipositor from the ceiling and make her comfortable, arranging the eggs around her. Having been pointed to the location Hicks arrives with his Pulse Rifle and sees the Queen mounted atop her ovipositor and surrounded by her eggs. Edging Closer Hicks ****s the Pulse Rifles grenade launcher as one of the Warriors/Drones hisses to his right, another to his left. As he turns to kill one the other incapacitates him, cocooning him to the wall of the nest as one of the eggs begins to open. The idea of a 2-3 feet long chestburster growing in one go into an 18 foot tall, 30 foot long Queen Alien is a stretch of the imagination at best. The resulting nature of the Queen nesting leaves her defenceless. Whereas the Princess idea shown in AVPR not only makes the growth of the Queen more viable but also makes her much less defenceless. Yes, you can argue that she is putting herself at risk by hunting prospective hosts for her brood, but with risk comes reward as is shown above. The Princess idea not only improves James Camerons Queens idea logically, it improves it narratively.

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-13-2012 2:22 PMNow we're trying to justify canon based on the likeability of a concept. Besides the fact that the predalien is ridiculous on the merits based soley on the naturally forming dreadlocks alone, (a truly stupid idea in and of itself, considering that predators bind their own dreadlocks by hand as a warrior's right - est. in the novels), that concept alters, even further, the biological morphology of the alien beyond reason. It's establishing the notion that an alien born of certain species will somehow be born with entirely new modes of procreation. How is it reasonable to suggest that just because an alien is born of a predator that the facehugger is suddenly removed from the reproductive process? It's too much to accept and has no logical basis. Anyway, here's the deal......that whole business about the predalien has nothing to do whatsoever with the substance of this canon debate. As to the C.B. business, again, it is entirely illiogical for Peter's nameless father in the timeline to be C.B., an individual of import in his own right who would be unusually conspicuous in his abscense from a history of Peter's life and company. That's what this comes down to, whether you and I can convince others of either side of this argument. Either: - AVP is canon and Peter is so vain as to completely eliminate the founder of his company from its official corporate history, despite what the rest of world would already know considering Peter's Weyland Corp. is the largest of any kind in human history. OR - Prometheus establishes a semi-reboot to the franchise that rejects the AVP's and their history, re-establishing the history of Weyland Corp. with Peter as the sole founder whose parents are left nameless on the timeline as they are little more than his parents, not famous or of note in any way other than that they gave Peter life....i.e....The franchise begins with Prometheus and chronologically continues through Alien and its sequels. We have gone back and forth so much that I believe we have reached an impass in which we must turn this over to the people and I am going to start a new thread asking for a vote. Please vote members and tell tell us where you stand.... [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/9711]Vote Here[/url]

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-13-2012 2:30 PM@ Craigamore... The "Princess" Alien concept was never stated to be as such because it had been born from a Predator, it was the writers and directors attempt to explain an overlooked problem with the concept of the Queen. It is just mere chance that it was born from a Predator. Yes the design could have been many, many times better, but it wasn't. Yes the films could have been many, many times better, but they weren't. And regards you "either, or" ultimatum, what is wrong with the possibility of Peter Weyland being a megalomaniac, power hungry, credit taker... isn't that his exact personality as shown in Prometheus.

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-13-2012 2:43 PMIt doesn't fit with the logic of what Prometheus now establishes. That's what's wrong with it.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-13-2012 2:48 PM@ craigamore, What doesn't... The Princess concept - makes perfect sense Peter Weylands "God" attitude - also makes perfect sense, did he not say "we are the Gods now", pretty megalomanical IMO.

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-13-2012 2:49 PMThis is why we need a poll of genral opinion...we seesawing here.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPAug-13-2012 3:19 PM@ craigamore... Seesawing - How? I, and a few others believe that there is no reason AVP cannot be considered part of the same universe as all the films mentioned in the OP. You, and many other believe otherwise. A poll will bring out the majority of those that are against the idea, and just serve this debate no favors. I understand that many are dead-set against the idea of AVP being considered canon, and thus most that do so, do so on a subjective basis, and that is their god-given right. But I have voiced my points objectively in this thread so that those that both agree or disagree with the points I have raised respectably. All I ask is the same, is that arguments for or against by others participating in this debate is done so in an objective, respectable fashion. Arguments such as "they're terrible films", "its a stupid idea" or "I don't like it" are not only unintelligent but pointless arguing against. I have sat back and let those against the idea argue their case, and have defended my position in debate against their case objectively and intelligently. I only ask that when I propose an argument in defense of my position, that those against give my argument the same consideration I give theirs.

BigDave

DeaconMember10357 XPAug-13-2012 4:09 PMI agree they are the same universe but alternative ones. Just as the Batman original 90s movies anthology is to the Dark Knight Rises, they both have Gotham City they both have Bruce Wayne who is Batman but thats as close as they get. The events of the original anthology do not link to or are part of the History of the Dark Knight series. so what i am saying is within the context of Alien and its movies and Prometheus then nope Predators did not bring Xenos to Earth. We can not rule out any potential of the Predator being in the Alien universe as in same timeline of events or History of Alien because Fox could release a Alien 5 and introduce the Predators or Ridley could do in future Prometheus movies. As far as same universe yes..... As far as being the same exact reality of Prometheus and Alien then nope. The only one who can answer that would be FOX or Ridley Scot.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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