Alien: Covenant

The FINAL Canon Debate

Pinned Topic12,135 Views191 RepliesAdd A Reply

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-25-2012 9:33 AMMany, many times other members and myself have put forward the possibility that the following film franchises all exist within the same fictional universe and are thus all canon to one another... [center][b]Predator - AVP - Prometheus - Alien[/b][/center] ...Yet many, many naysayers and detractors voice their opinions stating this is not the case. 9 times out of 10, such arguments are subjective, from individuals whom don't like the idea. Now, while some of those supporting the idea of these franchises existing within the same universe may also have subjective arguments, I do not. I have looked at this debate from an objective point of view and always reach the same conclusions... - There is more information in the movies to suggest they are all set within the same fictional universe - There is no contradictory information in the movies that states otherwise - There has not been any official statement stating otherwise To that end I challenge the naysayers to disprove, with verifiable sources for their information and statements, why these franchises are not part of the same universe.

191 Responses to The FINAL Canon Debate

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-26-2012 7:51 AM@ Engineer Tech Brett... Your statement regarding Weyland Industries founding is often misrepresented. Here is a screencapture from the corporate timeline featured on the website [url=https://www.weylandindustries.com/#]weylandindustries.com[/url]... [img]http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj75/ladon76/101112.png[/img] Note the first line says "Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity...". I repeat Weyland Corporation is recognized, not Weyland Industries. Nowhere in this text is the name Weyland Industries mentioned. It is clearly stated above that Peter Weyland is the founder and CEO of Weyland Corporation. The Founder and CEO of Weyland Industries is clearly shown in AVP to be Charles Bishop Weyland. Now some have argued that Weyland Industries is the incorporated name of Weyland Corporation, when it could simply be the same company portrayed in AVP which has been dissolved into Peter Weylands company - Weyland Corporation. Which brings me to a simple point - If the intention was to ret-con the sheer possibility of the AVP's being considered canon why use the name "Weyland Industries" (which first appeared in 2004's AVP), why not use another name such as Weyland Incorporated/Technologies/Limited etc. Using the name Weyland Industries only supports the AVP's as existing within the same universe as Prometheus and Alien. The rabbit hole deepens. Here is the Weyland Industries logo as seen sparodically on concept art in the Art of Prometheus book... [img]http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/187/d/e/weyland_industries_by_weylandyutaniassoc-d569ubu.png[/img] And here is the Weyland Industries logo as seen in AVP... [img]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/WrestlingCentral/Patches-AlienWeyland-YutaniCorp.jpg[/img] Very similar wouldn't you agree? Furthermore if the intention was to ret-con AVP out of the Prometheus/Alien universe, wouldn't it have been more plausible for Peter Weyland to have been born after 2005, eliminating any possibility of 2004's AVP character Charles Bishop Weyland of being Peter Weylands father. Which could have further been disassociated by simply having Peter Weyland have a different hair/skin colour, or even the possibility of Weyland being the first name of the CEO and founder Weyland Corporation. Why follow the example set beforehand with AVP. This also extends to the Yutani Corporation. Originally, Ron Cobb saw the Weyland-Yutani Corporation as not a merger of two rival companies but a partnership of two wealthy individuals and friends. So why with Prometheus did Ridley Scott and his team not follow the idea of Ron Cobb, giving Sir Peter Weyland a wealthy friend and partner, but instead and again follow the example set beforehand in AVPR, by showing the Yutani Corporation as a competitor... [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Hfx51LmXxbc/T7PBES-hzcI/AAAAAAAAIEs/vbp7nrosDeE/s1600/here.jpg[/img] @ Dusty... As mentioned by both Engineer Tech Brett and Nrlfetmefan (strange name), the derelct Engineer craft was forced to land with its cargo of Alien eggs on LV-426 thousands of years before the events depicted in the movie. Therefore the Alien has been in existence for thousands of years, at least, most likely much longer. The Deacon seen in Prometheus is not the first Alien, it is an example of a first generation Alien. @ Nrlfetmefan... You are right, the writers and directors have no say regards canon. This responsibility is ultimately left in the hands of those that own the intelectual property, but that is split between Brandywine Productions (David Giler and Walter Hill) whom own the production rights to the Alien creature and anything set within the Alien universe, and between FOX whom own the distribution rights. Not only have both been involved in Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Resurrection, AVP, AVPR and Prometheus, but both refuse to make any official statement either way regarding the canonicity of what does and does not exist within the fictional universe established by 1979's Alien. @ David 1... You state that you only view Alien as canon, now also assuming that you consider Prometheus as canon explain this reference also found on the website [url=https://www.weylandindustries.com/#]weylandindustries.com[/url]... [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4ljfyWUgC1qa1o5zo1_500.jpg[/img] Also David 1 and allinamberclad... The Emperor/Darth Sidious does not feature in Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope, is he therefore not canon, despite appearing in every other Star Wars movie. The challenge I see remains unresloved, is there no official word from FOX themselves stating the franchises of Predator, AVP, Promtheus and Alien are not set in the same fictional universe. Because I am afraid that until one is found/made, and proven to be genuine that there is more evidence stating that these franchise do exist in the same fictional universe, than there is against it. With those that refute the idea doing so by their own, subjective opinion.

Fan

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-26-2012 8:34 AMI thought that I read somewhere a while back that when Cobb came up with the original company name, he took Leyland Toyota and changed them to Weylan Yutani. Weylan without the d. In the original alien film, was it Weylan or Weyland? If it was Weylan, why not use this as a little way of saying,"Hey viewers, disregard all the other movies except Alien." *my name is dumb...didn't put any thought into it when I signed up, it's shorthand for "near lifetime fan". I'm 38 and I've loved everything alien for 30 years. ;)
ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPJul-26-2012 2:46 PM@ Snorkel, If you read on in the paragraph from the Weyland site it says that they recieve a Certificate of Incorporation from the Companies House in the United Kingdom. A certificate of incorporation is a legal do***ent relating to the formation of a company or corporation. (A Birth Certificate) A Corporation is an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members, and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members. Corporations generally have a distinct name. Historically, some corporations were named after their membership: for instance, "The President and Fellows of Harvard College." Nowadays, corporations in most jurisdictions have a distinct name that does not need to make reference to their membership. In Canada, this possibility is taken to its logical extreme: many smaller Canadian corporations have no names at all, merely numbers based on a registration number (for example, "12345678 Ontario Limited"), which is assigned by the provincial or territorial government where the corporation incorporates. It is a Corporation but its called Weyland Industries and didn't form until 2012.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-27-2012 7:22 AMThee name of the company is the Weyland Corporation, as evidenced here... [img]http://www.outlawcustomdesigns.com/product_images/f/429/Aliens_Weyland_Corp_Logo_Name__37814_zoom.jpg[/img]

David 1

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-27-2012 10:37 AMSnorks: I say ALIEN is THE "canon" for being the original story. Obviously it has references there to other Alien movis, such has David shooting a basketball, the vehicles, the mercs, etc. But: There is NO REFERENCE AT ALL to predators. Not even cloaked ones. See my point?
[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-27-2012 11:44 AM@ David 1 - well taking into account that Predator wasn't released until 1987, that's not much of a surprise really is it.

Dustie

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-27-2012 12:07 PMPerdon my ignorance, but how do we know that ship has been there for over two thousands, exactly? Perhaps I have missed a quote or two from Scott... I think the Industries/Corporation issue is a false trail. Seems like a minor difference to me, without any significance to the story. I would dare to state that I think Scott considers Alien vs. Predator movies a joke and will not think twice in case he puts something in Prometheus sequel that would directly contradict those two. They do seem to click for now, as Weyland in Prometheus might knew about the incidents from 2004, which involved his ancestors, and thus supported Shaw's mission when he heard about her discovery, hoping it's a chance to find those species. One more thing regarding canon is, I keep reading that Aliens: Colonial Marines claims itself to be a part of the franchise's canon, a true sequel to Cameron's Aliens, while apparently taking place on LV-426. We all know that a huge explosion took place there and wiped out the base (the game takes place in the base's ruins, which would have evaporated after a nuclear blast, wouldn't they?), we know Sulaco took off and caught fire much, much later on, after reaching Fiorina 161 (the game shows Sulaco on fire, crashing on LV-426, along with another vessel of the same model as Sulaco), which makes the game storyline condradict with both Aliens and Alien 3 storylines. Am I right on this?...

David 1

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-27-2012 1:06 PMSnorkelbottom: Cool. Now take into account that the rest of the Alien movies are post-predator. And there are no preds in them. Not even in Prometheus wich is the newest....
[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPJul-27-2012 3:00 PM@snorkel, you're right the company is called Weyland Corporation and was founded in 2012. Weyland Corporation and Weyland Industries are the same company. If they were different companies then why on their own website in thier own corporate timeline do Weyland Industries not have any record before 2012? Things like: 2004 : Weyland Industries Founder or owner Charles Bishop Weyland Dies or Whatever Year: Satellite PS12 sent into orbit. (Satellite at start of AVP) They do have 1990: Peter Weyland Born 2015:Weyland Industries launches first industrialized space mission to install solar panels that align and move in Earth’s orbital plane but at an axial tilt. Another Note. Just watched the start of AVP and it says: October 3rd 2004 Low Earth Orbit Weyland Corporation Satellite PS12 Didnt Peter Weyland Form the Corporation in 2012? PS. Loving the debate.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

allinamberclad

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-27-2012 5:07 PM@Dustie Yes, I understood the idea that it's been there for thousands of years originates with Scott. Is this rest correct? "Aliens: Colonial Marines" is claiming canonical status? Oh, my Lord.... *slowly backs out of the room, while drawing the door closed*

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-27-2012 5:38 PM@ David... Actually Aliens was released in 1986, a whole year before Predator. And no I don't see your point. Why would Alien 3, Resurrection and Prometheus have Predators in them, they aren't about Predators. @ Dustie... I said at least 2000 years, not exactly. Wasn't the intention, even way back in Alien that the derelict craft had been there a long, long time. Also the Sulaco does not burn when leaving LV-426 (it was in orbit) and neither was it on fire in Alien 3 (although their was an electrical fire onboard caused by a Facehuggers acid) that was the EEV. And we have no idea if the derelict was destroyed when Hadleys Hope went nuclear, as we don't know how far away it was from the colony. If the game breaks events known to happen it is not canon, and cant be canon unless FOX or Brandywine (meh) acknowledge it as such. @ ETB... Will have to check that claim in AVP. But there is no refuting that we the audience were first shown Weyland Industries back in 2004 in AVP. The sheer fact that the viral campaign for Prometheus uses the same name suggests AVP's inclusion. Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation were not the same company until 2012... Is it not possible that Weyland Industries (founded pre-2004) was incorporated into Weyland Corporation when it was recognized in 2012. And as to no mention of Weyland Industries previous endeavours, why would they, wouldn't it taint the image of their CEO and founder Sir Peter Weyland.

Crabfart

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-27-2012 5:47 PMSpaceballs had an alien in it :S (and john hurt) - one of the wierdest things ever: [img]http://deadlymovies.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/deadlymovies_alien-dance.jpg[/img] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVZUVeMtYXc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVZUVeMtYXc[/url]

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPJul-27-2012 6:05 PM@snorkel, if weyland Industries was around beofre 2012 Peter Weyland wouldn't be able to use Weyland in the name of Weyland Corporation as it is against the law. it is too similar to Weyland Industries and wouldnt be allowed. How would it taint his image? What company would put up records that taints their own image? Surely they did 1 good thing before 2012? or at least say when they were founded?

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

cuponator3000

ChestbursterMember839 XPJul-28-2012 1:51 AMi think i have said this in another discussion before, but i don't see a problem with the preds, aliens, and now engineers exsisting in the same universe. i didnt have a problem with the alien skull in predator 2, but y not leave it at that? instead of making a film that was supposed to be a prequel then making a god awful sequel, they should have left the fact that preds and aliens have seen each other at that, a thought. although i could imagine a predator and engineer facing off, that would be a good fight to film jus for the heck of it ;)

Not a map, an invitation

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-28-2012 5:04 AM@ ETB... Weyland Industries was around before 2012, it featured in 2004's AVP, and was founded by CB Weyland, a self taught engineer. And as regards your arguments regarding company names, I am afraid a simple google search proved the matter wrong... [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars,_Incorporated]Mars Incorporated[/url] is a website for the well known manufacturer of chocolate and pet food products, and... [url=http://www.indiamart.com/mars-industries/]Mars Industries[/url] is a link to an international company that makes door and window fittings.

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPJul-28-2012 6:00 AM@ Snorkel, the basis of your argument stems from the fact that there are two names, Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation. From that you state that, since there are two names then they are different companies. First being Weyland Industries, founded before 2012, by Charles Bishop Weyland and featured in AVP. The second being Weyland Corporation, founded in 2012, by Sir Peter Weyland and featured in Prometheus. Like I said before, if Weyland Industries is a different company from Weyland Corporation, then why on their own website on their own corporate timeline do they: Not state any records before 2012? Why is it only after 2012 does the company do anything? You say that it would taint that image of Peter Weyland. Why not state when Weyland Industries was founded? What harm would that do to Peter Weyland? Why does it not say when Weyland Corporations buys out or incorporates Weyland Industries? To further use the timeline on the Weyland Industries: Weyland Industries launches first industrialized space mission to install solar panels that align and move in Earth’s orbital plane but at an axial tilt, imitating a perpetual summer solstice. The renewable energy gathered in the months following this expedition made Peter Weyland his first billion. March 27, 2015 If that was their first industrialised space mission, then how did they get the satellite in AVP into orbit beforehand. One the subject of the two names, if they are different companies then: Why does Peter Weyland set up a different company from one that’s already there? How does he use the name Weyland in Weyland Corporation when it’s against the law to do so? It is too similar, Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation sound too alike. You cannot use the same name when the company is going to do the same thing as another company with the same name. Like I cannot set up a restaurant and call it Mcdonalds. Making Chocolate and making door and window fittings are two very different things. For me, Weyland Industries and Weyland Corporation are the same company. Weyland Corporation is the overall name of the company. It is where Finance, Legal and General running of the company is held. It says in the timeline, Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity and corporation under United States law and receives their Certificate of Incorporation from the Companies House in the United Kingdom. It says this because that is how everything was set up. Weyland Corp is recognised as a separate legal entity and is recognized by the law to have rights and responsibilities like natural persons. This is because corporations can exercise human rights against real individuals and the state and they can themselves be responsible for human rights violations. It is all to protect Peter Weyland from anything Legal held against the company. Weyland Industries is apart Weyland Corporation and is the manufacturing arm of the company. They research, manufacture and produce things like solar panels, David and Powerloaders. Because there is no record before 2012 And Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries are the same company Since it states that Peter Weyland is the founder of Weyland Corp/Industries There is only on logical conclusion, in the Alien Canon, Weyland Industries or Corporation didn’t exist before 2012. Theres the Alien Universe, theres the Predator universe and there is the AVP Universe. All three don’t exist within the same Universe. PS. did you check the start of AVP for the Weyland Corporation Satellite?

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-28-2012 7:37 AM@ ETB... Your persistence is admirable... My argument on this matter stems from the undeniable fact that both Weyland Industries and as it turns out also Weyland Corporation (the satellite at the start of AVP - Weyland Corporation Satellite PS12) were first shown to us back in 2004, in AVP (which was also when the film was set). My comment of the company names was that Charles Bishop Weyland had founded Weyland Industries pre-2004. And that Peter Weyland had founded Weyland Corporation in 2012. However, in light of your discovery it seems that Charles Bishop Weyland was actually the founder of both - Corporation being the head business - the brain, and Industries being the manufacturing business - the brawn. Which "seems" to be contradicted by the corporate timeline on the website www.weylandindustries.com. Unless you look at it from a simple yet hypothetical, but plausible perspective... [b]AVP[/b] Charles Bishop Weyland, a british billionaire and self taught engineer, creates Weyland Corporation/Industries - a communications and engineering business including but not limited to the production of Communication and Surveillance Satellites, Robotics and Military Weapons. [b]CORPORATE TIMELINE[/b] 1990, while in Mumbai, India. Weyland's wife, an Oxford-educated Professor of Comparative Mythology, gives birth to their one an only child, Peter. Being as bright and intelligent as his parents, and aware of his fathers health problems Peter Weyland , at the mere age of 14, patents a synthetic trachea constructed entirely of synthetically-engineered stem cells. [b]AVP/AVPR[/b] 2004, CB Weyland heads an expedition to Antarctica, and never returns. The details of CB Weyland's death are covered up by the US Government sanctioned task force the O.W.L.F. With the death of the companies CEO and founder Weyland Corporation/Industries starts to crumble from within. [b]CORPORATE TIMELINE[/b] October 11th 2012, Peter Weyland at the mere age of 22, restructures his fathers company making it his own and beginning his own legacy. In time the new company develops and produces technology and solutions across all markets making the company the largest ever, all thanks to Sir Peter Weyland. ...Not only does that fit in with the films it also fits in with the corporate timeline. Why then is there no mention of the companies accomplishments pre-2012, quite simple really and I believe Meredith Vickers said it quite eloquently "Every king has his reign, and then he dies". History is written by the victors and the heirs, not the losers and the has-beens. But, one question has to be asked, is the website itself considered to be canon?

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPJul-28-2012 8:11 AM@snorkel, you say: However, in light of your discovery it seems that Charles Bishop Weyland was actually the founder of both - Corporation being the head business - the brain, and Industries being the manufacturing business - the brawn. But it says on the website in the ABOUT US section: ......Fifty years ago, our founder Sir Peter Weyland set out to change the world. Now, the company he created so many years ago works tirelessly with the same unlimited ambition to improve the world he changed. It cant be both. It doesn't say on the corporate timeline that or on the website that that he restructures his fathers company. it however does say, he is the founder of the company. Im using records from the Weyland Industries website, you are using what ever you can from AVP to try and fit it in. The corporation wasn't founded until 2012 by Peter Weyland. Dont look at it hypothetical at all, thats subjective.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Gavin

TrilobiteMember9516 XPJul-28-2012 9:18 AM@ ETB.... Subjective. No I'm afraid its actually objective, it is the site that is subjective and the films (all 10) that are objective. And contrary to your assumption, I am using both the information from all 10 films and the Weyland Industries website... As you state the site says... [i]......Fifty years ago, our founder Sir Peter Weyland set out to change the world. Now, the company he created so many years ago works tirelessly with the same unlimited ambition to improve the world he changed.[/i] Look at the above language in the text, the intention - The great Sir Peter Weyland, the saviour of mankind. A little preachy towards this one individual don't you think, the same individual whom funded a trillion dollars expedition to a distant planet looking for god and went along for the ride in stasis mere days from deaths door. Now look at the films... AVP shows that Weyland Industries and (thanks to your own observations) Weyland Corporation existed before 2004, under Charles Bishop Weyland. Prometheus uses one of these companies, with the website stating that it was recognized as a legal entity under Peter Weyland in 2012. Now isn't it possible looking at the above statements that they go together by having CB Weyland create the foundation for what Peter Weyland later took credit for, writing CB Weyland out of the equation and taking all the credit for himself. Does this not match the character of Peter Weyland. It wouldn't be the first time or the last time that such a "takeover" had occurred. If Prometheus wanted to ret-con the possibility of the four franchises existing in the same universe why use the same company names established in AVP for its viral marketing and film? Why have Peter Weyland born before CB Weylands death? Why even have Weyland be the companies founding members last name? Why have the Yutani Corporation as a competitor? All ideas presented in the AVP's, all ideas carried over into Prometheus and its viral marketing campaign.

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPJul-28-2012 7:00 PM@Snorkel, I use the Weyland Industries website because it was setup for the intention of promotion of Prometheus. Prometheus is a film that is set before Alien, 30 years or so before hand. We know this is canon with Alien because we have been told by Ridley Scott in interviews. He has said that it is in the same universe as Alien. If it wasn’t then Fox wouldn’t allow him to do so. Fox setup the Weyland Industries website to gain a large fan base for the film in the lead up to the release of the film. They did this by giving a timeline leading up to the launch of the mission. Key facts (within the universe) given out about key characters. They have facts that fit with other films, like the Powerloader in Aliens. It says that Peter Weyland is the Founder and that he created the company. The definition of Founded : 1. Establish, set-up, originate. A business cannot be founded twice. He founded the company, according to its own website, in 2012. It was around before 2004 in AVP (I can’t deny that) but not in Prometheus. AVP and Prometheus don’t exist within the same universe. Prometheus came about because of unanswered questions in Alien, AVP came about because of a skull in Predator which was there for a laugh. Prometheus is a loosely based prequel about Alien but it is most definitely within the same universe as Alien. We have been told that by the director of Alien. Just because something is in AVP you can’t start making up hypothetical scenario’s to back up your claim. Two pages back you said in a post [i]Note the first line says "Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity...". I repeat Weyland Corporation is recognized, not Weyland Industries. Nowhere in this text is the name Weyland Industries mentioned. It is clearly stated above that Peter Weyland is the founder and CEO of Weyland Corporation. The Founder and CEO of Weyland Industries is clearly shown in AVP to be Charles Bishop Weyland.[/i] But when I show you a contradiction you then say [i]However, in light of your discovery it seems that Charles Bishop Weyland was actually the founder of both - Corporation being the head business - the brain, and Industries being the manufacturing business - the brawn. Which "seems" to be contradicted by the corporate timeline on the website www.weylandindustries.com. Unless you look at it from a simple yet hypothetical, but plausible perspective... AVP Charles Bishop Weyland, a british billionaire and self taught engineer, creates Weyland Corporation/Industries - a communications and engineering business including but not limited to the production of Communication and Surveillance Satellites, Robotics and Military Weapons.[/i] That’s not proof. It doesn’t ‘seem’ like a contradiction, it is one. Just because you can come up with a hypothetical scenario connecting the films doesn’t make it so. I have shown you a contradiction and your answer was hypothetical.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Fan

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-28-2012 8:24 PM@ etb If Charles Weyland died and as a result the company dissolves, another Weyland could found a new company with the same name in the future. So the Weyland corp can be founded in 2012 without contradicting the avp crossover. We don't know what happened in the missing 8 years. I make this point simply to show one of many possible arguments to explain why what is what. Alienamberclad had a good point..writers will not directly contradict other authors material probably so as to not create a rift in relationships. That being said, if fox wants to eliminate any relationship between pred and alien universe, writers can simply never write a crossover again...job done. If they want to, they certainly can write future parallels without contradicting previous storylines and pull it off...it all depends on the writing and directing IMO. I have not jumped ship on my feelings about alien and pred universe, but what's done is done and they do not have to revisit it again if they choose not to. Talking the canon topic, although a little agressive at times, is a good way to learn new stuff or form new opinions...sometimes help to firm up existing perceptions. I have argued on the topic of whether or not the queen is canon. Some say yes and some say no cuz of the Brent Dallas alien dcut scene. I understand why people would like that to be the reproductive process, but the introduction of the queen IMO negates the cut scene. In this thread(and other threads) Svanya uses the opinions of Scott and Cameron as basis for dismissing AvP and if we're to put that kind of weight on Cameron's opinions, than I guess we have to accept his queen. Going back to the Weyland timeline issue...is there not one parallel we can draw between the two Weyland Corporations to explain things? Do they explain anything about Peter Weylands father and could Charles be his father?
ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Fan

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-28-2012 8:53 PMEhh..scratch that...Peters father was a software engineer, not a billionaire industrialist like Charles....
ALL generalizations are WRONG!

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-04-2012 11:30 PMSnork.....Why would you even use information from the timeline for your argument when you've just questioned its validity to begin with? As to your point about Weyland's cure for cancer and Ripley's daughter dieing of cancer not jiving......the timeline states the following: "Scientists from the Health Division identify the genetic chain of events for [b]98%[/b] of cancers. Using genetically-altered cells as well as elements found beyond Earth’s heavens, Weyland successfully deploys an effective cure for [b]almost[/b] all cancers." That's 98% of cancers they were able to cure, not all of them and besides, her daughter was an old woman, there's no reason we cannot accept that her body was just too frail to survive despite the cure. That happens in medicine all the time. As to whether the powerloader looks the same or not...who cares? Whether the powerloader is improved upon or not in the 123 years after its invention is not going to call into question the logical validity of anything pertinent to the C.B. Weyland argument. Anyway, the text you provided states that it "improved workplace safety by 300%" since its introduction. What needs improving there? If it ain't broke, don't fix it..... weylandindustries.com is as much a part of [i]Prometheus[/i] as anything we learn in the film. It would follow that the writers and the director would be responsible for that material as it was their idea to found the site as part of the marketing campaign. Now, if you're going to throw all that out, then throw out the TED Talk, the David 8 infomercial, the Shaw vid-mail to Weyland. Throw all of it out or else we're being hypocritical. There is no reason to discount any of it; especially the TED Talk as it clearly displays an origin for David's fascination with [i]Lawrence of Arabia[/i], which is a point of real importance in his character development. And let's not forget that the TED Talk is a part of that timeline as well, validating the timeline. The Film validates the TED Talk by way of the [i]Lawrence of Arabia[/i] connection and the TED Talk then validates the timeline by its inclusion on it. Period.... And I find it interesting that now, somehow, we went from arguing the points of the timeline and how they fit into the canon reconciliation debate to questioning their relevance at all. We can't just start throwing things out because we don't like what they infer or insinuate about what is or isn't part of this universe anymore. Here's the rub.......Fox produced [i]Prometheus[/i], Fox funded the marketing campaign, the marketing campaign establishes a history to the [i]Alien[/i] canon that negates the [i]AVP[/i] chronology as part of the franchise going forward. What [i]Prometheus[/i] ultimately does here is establish a semi-reboot of the franchise, establishing [i]Prometheus[/i] alongside the four [i]Alien[/i] films and forgeting the [i]AVP[/i] films as nothing more than sideshows. Ultimately, Fox greenlit [i]Prometheus[/i], Fox authorized the marketing approach and thereby validates what it establishes to the public.....and where that becomes important is in its information about Peter's origins and the lack of any mention of C.B....that is everything here. Incidentally, why haven't you countered any of the points I made about C.B. and Peter in my last post?

XeNoFan

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-29-2012 10:15 AMI just want to say in all three alien flims's there's mention of YUtani"" in the Predator movie inside there ship there's xeno skulls ethier way you look at this topic there's going to be back blow or disagreement Weyland-Yutani if they didnt have something to do with one another why mention them in both flim's????????????????????????????

Engineer Tech Brett

OvomorphMember59 XPJul-29-2012 7:00 PM@XeNoFan, as far as Yutani is concerned, again on the timeline, After years of litigation, Weyland wins the David patent lawsuit against the Japanese start-up Yutani Corporation, effectively protecting the investments of both Weyland Industries and its shareholders. December 12, 2029 The Yutani Corporation is referred to as a START-UP. The definition of a start-up company or start-up is 1. A company that is in the first stage of its operations. These companies are often initially bank rolled by their entrepreneurial founders as they attempt to capitalize on developing a product or service for which they believe there is a demand. 2. A startup company or startup is a company with a limited operating history. These companies, generally newly created, are in a phase of development and research for markets.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Pointblank

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-29-2012 10:09 PMI find it amazing that you all have this level of clarity about all the pertinent details pertaining to plot details in the films and production rights! Amazing, great lessons certainly to be learned from reading these posts. Honestly I never really judged any of the individual films on whether they were part of the entire cannon. I enjoyed parts of most of the films purely from a subjective point to get entertainment value from good production and my suspension of disbelieve. I do want to state though that I take it seriously that when you produce something you do so to further the franchise as a whole and not to make just some petty some of money because you have the rights to show the Xenomorph “Alien” creature in your production. I am with everyone on this one. You produce something worthy of the beginnings that do right by the originators of this Canon or you just do not produce it. It makes the producers rip off artists for getting us into the theaters and us fools for wasting our time watching there far removed at best half slopped together films. I take everyone’s comments seriously. You would not have all taken the time to write these pertinent commentaries had you not believed so much so in the original creation or canon. I personally hatted all of the AVP movies and the fourth Alien film, Alien Resurrection. There are some cool parts to some of these films but for the most part it is my opinion that they only severed to make a fast buck for certain interested parties and left us the loyal fans screwed over. As for whether I think AVP films are part of the Alien canon I am not exactly sure. Parts of the AVP films make an attempt to link both of these franchises and at times have plot holes too big to link them with absolute certainty. I think the best we can do here is watch what we think we like and get some entertainment value out of it. Feeling dejected by greedy producers and writes is a waste of time and futile. They do not care what real consumers of these narratives think otherwise they would have never produced most of these other off-shoots of the main story of Alien. We would have had plots and movies that pertained specifically to the Alien story line and that would have been perfectly fine had they produced those types of films with the right production value and creativity. They have sold us all out that is for sure. Even Prometheus has too many plot holes and inconsistences to reboot or save the franchise. I thought the scene where the biologists try to reanimate the decapitated Engineer head to be one of the best pieces of fine art I have ever been able to view. I have been to many museums, read many great works of literature and that was a fine master work of art. It was almost completely ruined by the scientist just sitting on a chest full of scientific equipment slugging away at a bottle of liquor. I would have edited him completely out of the scene of course because it is just distracting from the genius of the rest of the scene. Prometheus is a great looking film as far as special effects. It lacks a greater continuity and it is as if Ridely had envisioned a lot more but could not execute on it properly. Ridley Scott is a great director; however, this is not his finest work nor his worst. Lets wait until the next film before we pass any really damning judgment. As I said before I am not sure how to really tie all these movies together. The producers of these AVP films have made movies that allow the first time movie viewer to enjoy what has been filmed for an individual performance. If they make enough money from that production I do not think the producers really care if it completely relates to the original Alien canon.

Druzilla

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-31-2012 10:17 AMI'm playing Devils Advocate here but I found this on Xenopedia. http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Daniel_large/AVP_films_are_non-canon I realise that this is far from "evidence" but it is certainly relevant to the topic. Please don't shoot the messenger - I for one think a lot of the arguments presented on this link are ridiculous but, again, I'm only adding this to contribute to the debate.

Druzilla

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-31-2012 10:21 AMhttp://avp.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Daniel_large/AVP_films_are_non-canon It cut my link, the dastard.

Druzilla

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-31-2012 10:23 AMIT DID IT AGAIN!!! ARGH! the last bit should say AVP_films_are_non-canon. Sorry folks.

craigamore

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-31-2012 11:47 AMEngineer Tech Brett...I'm totally with you.... Pointblank...I'm with you on that also.....very good points Nrlfetmefan......thanks for this..."Peters father was a software engineer, not a billionaire industrialist like Charles"....it saved me from having to do so....that's a major issue in the whole C.B. Weyland versus Peter Weyland debate. allinamberclad.....I loved this....."What that objective would require, in actual practice, is that one Author would publicly denounce another Author's work as invalid: when neither of them own the Property under discussion and where the one Author has a relationship he wants to maintain with the Owner of the Property - he being a Studio - and also a professional reputation and personal life he probably wants to be kept free of bad blood, prima-donna drama, and ridiculous in-fighting... surely, this is an impossible position? Furthermore, the objective seems to be setting a , "burden of disproof" - which does seem a little cart-before-the-horse, to me, but, nevertheless: in respect of both these things, I can't help think that @Svanya, with her usual economy, has plotted the best and soundest course - assuming you give additional weight to the opinions of those Author's with original or earliest interest in terms of defining the basis of canon, [which would seem reasonable], and also make an allowance for the diplomacy that will necessarily be required in the delivery of those opinions, [which would seem sensible and discriminating] - surely the objective is as good as answered?" As for me, I posted this recently and I think it's relevant........ "I've been here on this site for a long time now and have been involved in more CANON fights than I care to even think about, but here's the rub........through all of it, every swash-buckling, splintered bickerfest, I've settled on something I find interesting: The term canon is less clincal and finite a term than is ever meant with its use. We bandy it about as Gospel and that Gospel is almost ALWAYS of a fundamentally different nature than that of our neighbor's...i.e. My Alien Gospel is not yours, yours is not mine and we are all of us together..different. Why does any of this matter? Why? Why do we sit here, sanctimoniously bickering back and forth like tenured professors in the field of Alien lore? It all lies with the original film. Alien is the one true source and the rest is up to each individual fan expert in Alien lore. This notion that, "After all, by definition, everything that Fox produces with an Alien in it would be canon," is entirely ridiculous. Are we going to believe that if FOX produced a film where the aliens learned to talk, any serious fan would accept that as canon? Are we to believe that if FOX produced a buddy film where an alien xeno was partner to a city cop and helped solve crimes in a distant post-apocalyptic wasteland, that we would accept that? Of course not; of course those examples are ridiculous, but the principle stands. Just because FOX releases something with an alien does not give it automatic credibility. What I'm getting at here is that film is like no other artistic medium. You're dealing in each case with a massive collaborative effort that is almost never the result of a sole individual's credit. Therefor, sequels, unless carried out by the same artistic minds and team, are in another realm than the original. That is not to say they are not valid; they are, but as all of this pertains to this word we seem so obsessed with, canon, there seems to be only one way to ultimately look at it: Canon pertains only to a complete work as defined by a single artistic mind or group/team of minds in the production of that work. In the case of Alien, the original is the begining and end of where this term canon applies. As fans, we have every right to to define our feelings on where that extends beyond the original, but officially, we can only honestly apply that term in refference to what was defined by O'Bannon, Shussett, Scott and the producers at Brandywine in the original film. Remove those original minds as a team from any later project and you remove any clinical, legitimate connection to the term canon. As an example to counter, The Lord of the Rings trilogy and The Hobbit films to come have all been adapted from works of the artistic mind of a single individual, J.R.R. Tolkien and adapted by a single group/team of filmmakers in Peter Jackson, the producers and so on. You can, in this case define the five films together as film canon, not literary, for that reason; one team creating one world within a single artistic vision as adapted from another's literary vision. In the case of the Alien Franchise, the same cannot be said. You have one film, the original Alien, and then everything else, directed by a number of different individuals, all with different takes, different writers, etc....the sequels, the books, the comics, the AvP mash-ups; all of it being peripheral material, each existing only as subjective preference for each individual fan to define for him or her self. This is a principal I believe exists as a universal constant in art: Canon officially extends only as far as the original vision of one mind or a team of minds as expressed in a final product. For us, officially.....canon must be and only can be defined as what pertains to the original, Alien.....beyond that, it's subjective, of personal opinion, and for each of us, just the way we see it...and that's all well and good the way it is."
Add A Reply
Log in to Post
Enter Your E-Mail
Enter Your Password

Stay Logged In
Alien & Predator Alien & Predator Fandom
Hot Forum Topics
New Forum Topics
Highest Forum Ranks Unlocked
Thoughts_Dreams
Thoughts_Dreams
81% To Next Rank
Neomorph
Neomorph
Neomorph
74% To Next Rank
Chestburster
Tiwaz
Tiwaz
53% To Next Rank
Chestburster
Jonesy
Jonesy
78% To Next Rank
Facehugger
burbigo3
burbigo3
18% To Next Rank
Ovomorph
Latest Alien Fandom Activity

Alien: Covenant is a sequel to 2012's Prometheus as well as a prequel to 1979's ALIEN. Alien fans looking to know more about Alien: Covenant should check back often. Alien-Covenant.com is an information resource for film enthusiasts looking to learn more about the upcoming blockbuster Alien: Covenant. Providing the latest official and accurate information on Alien: Covenant, this website contains links to every set video, viral video, commercial, trailer, poster, movie still and screenshot available. This site is an extension of the Alien & Predator Fandom on Scified - a central hub for fans of Alien and Prometheus looking to stay up-to-date on the latest news. Images used are property of their respective owners. Alien: Covenant, Prometheus and its associated names, logos and images are property of 20th Century Fox and are in no way owned by Scified and its related entities. This is a fan-created website for the purpose of informing and exciting fans for Alien: Covenant's release. If you have any questions about this site, its content or the Scified Network in general, feel free to contact Scified directly.

© 2022 Scified.com
Sign in with your E-Mail & Password


Log in to view your personalized notifications across Scified!

Alien Alien-Covenant.com
Godzilla Godzilla-Movies.com
Jurassic World JurassicWorld3.net
Aliens vs. Predator AliensVersusPredator.net
Predator Predator4-Movie.com
Latest Activity
Forums
Search Scified
Sci-Fi Movies