Had Potential/Observations3,442 Views29 RepliesAdd A Reply
Prometheus ranks as one of my favorite movies in the scifi genre. While elysian feels that "faith" was "shoe horned" into the film, I found it was a logical point of reference for a character, albeit the heroine, who is in search of humanity's origin. Without belaboring the point, there are plenty of characters whose "faith", is not anchored in Christianity. In my opionion, Prometheus' great potential lies in the stark contrast between David, the cyborg, and Naomi Repace's character Dr Shaw. David's superior artificial intelligence seems to patronize Dr Shaw's quaint religiosity. The reason one might find great potential in a movie that pits artifical intelligence against human faith, whatever the religion, lies in the push and pull at the heart of this conflict. Consequently I was disappointed when the sequel, Covenant, did not continue where Prometheus left off. Dr Shaw had rescued David to survive and continue her quest to meet the engineers, who, for lack of a better word, could only be viewed as gods. Despite knowing the origin of humanity had nothing to do with Shaw's biblical god, she soldiered on with her now perhaps obsolete value system. Imagine the conversations David might have had with a curious religious human whose animalistic survival instincts allowed for his continued immortality and his quest to leave a mark on this world, uh, these worlds....
Certainly it could have been Interesting to see WHAT it is that David could have DONE had they NOT had to Shoehorn the PLOT to introduce incoming Humans.
With the ONLY DNA of a Human Dr Shaw but with Engineer DNA on a World he has WASHED CLEAN!
But YES i think their Dynamic was Interesting, i am sure that David found it INTERESTING that the Faith of Dr Shaw gave her such a WILL to Carry On!
And also as to HOW would it Effect her Character when she has to FINALLY FACE THE FACT that her GOD does-not Exist and these Engineers are FAR from the Benevolent Gods she had HOPPED.
The Engineers being merely Humanoids who just have the Benefit of being around for MUCH LONGER and thus having more Advanced Tech who NOW deem they can GO and DESTROY their Creations at WILL.
Dr Shaw would LIKELY see these beings as NOT being WORTHY to be the JUDGE, JURY and EXECUTIONER of all they Created.
Imagine the Engineers discover Dr Shaw and David have TURNED UP and then Determine that INDEED their Creations had Advanced so FAR on their OWN to become a Threat and then Dr Shaw discovers that Earth is NOT the Only World were the Engineers have Humans or Humanoids.
The Engineers then Determine that THEY have to GO TO THOSE WORLDS which Include Earth and DESTROY them all!
Would Dr Shaw go and ACCEPT THAT? or would SHE agree with DAVID that the Engineers should be STOPPED!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I made a Thread about what possible Story was to be Told between when David had arrived at Planet 4 and when the Covenant had arrived, Quite a LOT had taken place in those near 10 Years that we had NOT seen in Detail.
I have added some Dialog from a Scene that i came up with as FAR as just after the Juggernaught had Crashed,its in that TOPIC above ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave. Disappointed fans of Covenant, like myself, should resign themselves that the Shaw-David relationship will never be central stage in the Alien franchise. BigDave also asked what good introducing human DNA into the neomorph generation did for the franchise. In my opinion, Dr Shaw's character was wasted as a mere vessel for the neomorph.
The human origin aspect of Prometheus was side-stepped, sadly. There is a way to salvage it. A second follow to Prometheus could feature a flash back of the David-Shaw voyage to the engineer home world.
I think that there was some Potential with David and Dr Shaw and i FELT that the Sequel could have been MORE, as it SET UP a Number of things to Cover/Answer and would have STEERED AWAY from ALIEN which i was Fine with. But i think the U-TURN was NOT the way to have gone.
I think we would have SEEN MORE with the Engineers, but i think that DAVID would still have been the KEY PLAYER and who knows what would have became of Dr Shaw (Apparently from when Micheal Green came on-board in 2014 then she was CURTAINS anyway).
It seems Dr Shaw was Destined to become a Experiment to Produce something that David would go and Create even a Year prior to Alien Covenant. The Difference is that she WENT from being USED to Create something NEW to being USED to Create the Xenomorph.
The PROBLEM they Faced with a Sequel to Prometheus was that IF they go to where the Engineers had come FROM... then HOW MUCH of a Movie can you have about David and Dr Shaw and whatever they GET UP TO on the Way.
Its then a CASE OF...
*What beings to they Discover on the World they are OFF TOO?
*And HOW would these beings Receive David and Dr Shaw?
*How many of these Beings (or Engineers) are there?
And so with JUST the ONE Human Character who some Found Anoying, with a Robot Sidekick, then its a case of HOW do they Interact with the Engineers?
David being Translator while Dr Shaw wants Answers... we SAW how this went for Peter Weyland?
So WHERE do other Human Characters come into it? So i think for a WHILE they had Planned for INCOMING Humans to arrive which means that WHEREVER it was that David and Dr Shaw would arrive would NOT be TOO FAR from Earth.
This could have BEEN SOLVED with some Better Writing/Thinking!
*Is the Earth the ONLY Place that has Humanoids or even Humans that the Engineers had Created/Engineered/Evolved?
*Are the Engineers really HELLBENT on Destroying all Humans/Humanoids or ONLY the Worlds that Disobey/Displease them?
"There is a way to salvage it. A second follow to Prometheus could feature a flash back"
I think maybe David could have a FEW FLASHBACKS... i am NOT sure you could Dedicate too much TIME to it.
But the EVENTS that went by from when David and Dr Shaw had Arrived (maybe in Part the Journey too) at Planet 4 until the Last Breath that Dr Shaw had Taken and HOW/WHEN we see David go and Set-Up the Transmission to BAIT in another Human Ship.... i think these EVENTS could WARRANT a NOVEL ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think the PROBLEM we had to look at is that Different Fans would have Expected Different things.
The BASIC Premise would have been to GO where David and Dr Shaw were going, which we would ASSUME was where the Engineer had said he was from.
Dr Shaw would have been WANTING to know as to WHY the Engineers Created us, and WHY they would come to Visit us and LEAVE some CLUES to the Location of LV-223. She would WANT too know as to WHY show us WHERE this Weapons Facility is Located, and WHY they Intended to Destroy us, WHAT had Happened to Cause our Creators to WANT to do this.
SHE would also be Wondering as to WHO had Created them (Engineers).
These are SOME of the Questions that some Fans had Wanted to know.... it seemed THAT these were LIKELY to be Answered to a Degree.
But some FANS would have been MORE Interested in finding out WHAT that Place was (LV-223) when and from WHAT did those Experiments come from, and the Black Goo. While ALSO wanting to see more of the Engineers Technology and Horrors.
WHILE you had some FANS who had Wanted to know.. HOW THE HELL does LV-223 connect to LV-426 and the Xenomorph? Maybe also HOW those Eggs got on the Derelict and maybe they would wanted to KNOW as to HOW the Xenomorph had Originated..... (It Seems that THIS is WHAT the Studio Felt that Fans would WANT to know more about).
You would HAVE to look at the Engineers Agenda and Purpose... it would SEEM that going around and Creating Horrific Weapons to UNLEASH on their Creations is ONLY a SMALL Part of what they do.... you could ASSUME that they ONLY do this IF they deem their Creations a Failure, Rebellious or a Potential Threat (or if their Creations Deeply Offend their Creators).
So THIS would be Important as to HOW would the Engineers react when Dr Shaw had arrived and STARTED to DEMAND some Answers.
The Creation, Sub-Creation, Rebellion and Hubris in Creating something Sentient and Intelligent seemed to be the LARGER Under Layer Theme! As well as the Hubris of trying to EVOLVE yourself/Creations and PLAY GOD.
But a LOT of People had Overlooked the Role of David in all of this, he is that HUBRIS, he has his OWN desire and Agenda. He is NOW FREE, he would NOT want to go back to then BECOME a Servant to a Species he sees and In-superior, he is NOT impressed with Humans.
He is also NOT IMPRESSED with our Creators, they are NO GODS! they are mere MORTALS and its ONLY their Knowledge, Tools (Goo) and Technology that IMPRESSED our David. He may think these would be GODS are NOT worthy of being Creators and having all their Technology.
And so you could Expect that David would see POTENTIAL that was WASTED in what the Engineers had been doing.
The other VERY IMPORTANT thing to Consider with David is that he wants to SURVIVE!
And so DAVID would be the Driving Force of any Sequel, for the Reasons i had put above, and it SEEMS that THIS is what the Main Plot would have been about in the PLOT despite Changes from 2013-2015 they all have in Common that it would be ABOUT what David is going to WANT/DO Next.
The Change to AC still FITS with the Plans for David, only such a Plot Change had meant we would KNOW LITTLE of what Dr Shaw had wanted to ASK the Engineers and we saw Little of Her and the Engineers.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
With a film thats nearly ten years old and has been discussed endlessly I try very hard to avoid repeating myself.
P R O M E T H E U S was made very very quickly. The change of the mission purpose and placing Weyland on board, with a character that became his daughter was as late into the movie as much as the sets were build for a creature break out rather than something more existential.
The fact that the prologue of AC predates Prometheus rather like the extras (The Ted Talk and Quiet Eye) shows the film maker trying to give more context to Weyland and his relationship with his creation but that patently does not help the casual film goer.
The literary driver that Damon introduced of Prometheus was powerful but the connection with Mary Shelley's book could equally have acted to steer the story through the territory with greater subtlety and nuance.
Weyland was a decrepit old man trying to bend the rules with two children neither of whom loved him whether organic or otherwise.
When I was asked to back into my work and retell the films story I went someway to addressing these issues by making the narrative knowing and having a much more detailed conversation go on between Weyland and David. Equally Meredith has a proper arc and her eventual demise underwrites one of the key ideas of this story as well providing Janek with the chance to tell the audience what had actually happened on the Moon.
However last year a friend who is a professional proof reader edited the story for me and he observed as a non involved reader that Weyland appeared to come out of nowhere. My response was to think about adding a flash back which finds Weyland speculating on his growing sense of mortality on the Mars Orbital of early Spaiht's scripts and his musings being interrupted by the quiet eye interventions of Elizabeth. She is like the drug dealer with the solution to his need and he ignores the implicit dangers of her offer. In my original story Elizabeth repeats the error with an even more dangerous invitation so one would be a prelude to the other and remind us the road to hell is paved with good intensions.
I think this expansion into a much more sophisticated environment could have worked but the creature (a foot note) should have been seen off and through looking at Weyland, David and Meredith in more detail the first film could have set up and hinted at what would be found.
The second film could have given power to the first film by making it clear all the answers really were in the first one by analogy and echoing.
Absolutely Michelle, the ROLE of Weyland was Changed more to FIT with his NEED to gain IMMORTALITY and i think it was GREAT Change. There are a Number of Hints to WHAT is Immortality in Context to the Franchise.
Weyland is a Pioneering Scientist... i am sure he had TRIED HARD to Attain a Longevity before he could NOT really become IMMORTAL and so he Turned to Dr Shaw and her Gods as a Desperate and Last Ditch Effort to LIVE.
There are a Number of Interesting Underlying Themes that could have been Explored more, the Potential was there for THIS to be more than a Creature Feature. I am sure that Peter Weyland was NOT the First Creator who THOUGHT he should NEVER DIE.... i think our Engineers had attempted this too. But in the END they were also MORTAL after all.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"She is like the drug dealer with the solution to his need and he ignores the implicit dangers of her offer."
I'd love to read a Peter Weyland adventure. He must have searched for the answer at some time in his life......not in a trillion dollar spaceship like the end of his life......But maybe testing an experimental light speed vessel or something.
I have a hard time thinking he sat around a office all day....During the great space expansion....Maybe sat around a office aboard a starship all day.
"She is like the drug dealer"
Indeed MonsterZero thats a Interesting take on it by Michelle.
Mortality is something that is of GREAT FEAR for Many. With Peter Weyland he was a MAN of Science and you can BET that he UNLIKELY had any FAITH in a Magical God who lives in the Clouds and HAVING a Immortal Soul that would LIVE ON after Death for THOSE who have Faith and Loyalty and Worship to the LORD.
You can be SURE that he had made MANY kind of Medical Advances that could Cure many Ailments and Illnesses but we are still STUCK to that BIOLOGICAL CLOCK that will ONE DAY... just STOP TICKING.
Our Peter Weyland being 100 Years Old and knowing he is Coming Close to Death, must have came to the Conclusion that there was NO-WAY he could Achieve any kind of Longevity or Immortality he was soon to be at DEATHS DOOR, and so for HIM when he Received the Quiet Eye message from Dr Shaw, he saw this as a LAST DITCH Effort to FIND a CURE for his Mortality.... in the HOPE that Dr Shaw and Holloway are Correct and they will FIND our MAKERS.
Then our MAKERS could surely grant Weyland more LIFE.
And so YES its via the HOPE that Dr Shaw and Holloway are Correct that Weyland has that CHANCE that he could be Saved/Extend his Mortality.
But i do think that PRIOR to this LAST DITCH... with NOTHING TO LOSE. I think that Weyland would have had some Obsession in TRYING to FIND a way to Extend his Mortality through SCIENCE.
In the Idea i had for Prometheus 2 in 2013 i had touched on WEYLAND as FAR as WHAT he was doing to CHEAT DEATH and it would have GAVE more of a Reason to WHY he was so INVESTED in A.I and David......... for maybe this was PART of his PLAN to CHEAT DEATH.
When Ridley Scott had said that IN-PART that Prometheus was about the SOUL and IMMORTALITY i dont think he had PLANS to show us that when we DIE we DO go to HEAVEN!
I think it was to SHOW that the Faith of Dr Shaw had been Proven to be WRONG about WHO our Creator is.... and so its LIKELY that her Faith is WRONG about the After-Life and Soul.
We see Weyland kind of MOCK his Creation.... saying he is Immortal but has NO SOUL.... when IRONICALLY it is David who is Actually the ONE with a IMMORTAL SOUL and a AFTER-LIFE.
Even our Creators the Engineers could NOT go and Achieve this... they are MORTAL AFTER ALL...... but they had Managed to Prolong the Degradation of their Bodies... beyond the Limits of the Human Body, but for the Millions of more Years they have been around you would ASSUME they had TRIED to Achieve their OWN kind of IMMORTALITY.
The Pitch for the Prequels by John Spaights seemed to Indicate this.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"When Ridley Scott had said that IN-PART that Prometheus was about the SOUL and IMMORTALITY i dont think he had PLANS to show us that when we DIE we DO go to HEAVEN!
I think it was to SHOW that the Faith of Dr Shaw had been Proven to be WRONG about WHO our Creator is.... and so its LIKELY that her Faith is WRONG about the After-Life and Soul."
Logan Marshall Green made the point that he represented the scientific view and Elizabeth the faith based view and that neither were right the out come was a train wreck.
What that implies is that whilst we would have been shown that creation is galvanised through science (The Genesis Cup) there are rules of engagement. This was not going to be nihilistic. The footnote the creature the unintended consequence is.
The eight noble savages in "the arrival of the engineers" had the power of creation in their hands but there was a code and part of that was a promise of a return of the soul.
How soul is defined and where it resides will never be answered by the films, even as they came to edit Prometheus they moved it closer to 'the routine' rather than the philosophical but those ideas cast a shadow over the film.
The Pebble Ship is not an accident and the consequences of their seeding was to produce an Engineered outcome. It follows that they gave thought to what happens when the outcomes cease. Their appearance by the waterfall had purpose. There was a plan.
In my work Elizabeth is more wrong about where they go than the moon. In Prometheus Weyland is nearly responsible for the end of mankind. In my extension Elizabeth is potentially responsible for the end of creation.
I think the Elder Scene was of Importance but the Reasons behind it are something that maybe Changes as with Quite a bit of the Story over Time/Drafts. As those working on the Prequels seem to Change their Minds a lot, and a lot of it is Ambiguous.
At the TIME that the Scene was SHOT then it had Highlighted that the Sacrificial Scene was a Highly Ritualistic Event. We have YET to even see the FULL Scene as Daniel Twiss (who played the Sacrificial Engineer) had said he had to Learn a Few Lines of ALIEN Dialect. On the Bonus Material we did get to see some Dialect from the ONE ELDER, and then some of the Shooting Script with a Translation.
"Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters, and may your soul become their way back to us."
We should not really look into that too Literally though, as the Planet already had Dirt and Water, but what we know is the Engineer is Donating his Body to Create Life, and RS had said the Engineers Choose to do this and said it was like how some Ancient Cultures would Choose Sacrifices. We had RS said the Engineers can Create Life in other ways but they Seed the Worlds in this way, it would appear they see this EVENT as Very Important and maybe a HONOR?
The Full Scene with Sub-Titles would have Revealed maybe too much, it seemed RS wanted to NOT reveal too much about WHY the Engineers do what they do in the First Movie.
But i would say YES there would seem to be RITUALS and WAYS of the Engineers that they ABIDE too, it would seem the Creation Tool (The Original Goo/Pathogen) was something they USE to Create/Evolve Life and there must have been RULES to Govern HOW and WHEN this is to be USED.
It is SAFE to assume the Engineers had USED this Pathogen/Goo to Create Life for Millions of Years.... it would seem its SOLE PURPOSE was NOT what we saw in Prometheus on LV-223. So IF those Engineers are Consider the FALLEN this means maybe they had been USING the Creation Tool in a WAY that it was NOT meant to be USED.
Ridley Scott had said that LV-223 was for the Creation of Bio-Weapons to USE on Mankind (maybe others too) but he also said the ENGINEERS would go to Worlds they deem a Failure and WIPE the Slate Clean.... well if this is the CASE i would say DROPPING DOWN like Hundreds of Urns of the SACRIFICIAL GOO would be the IDEAL way to FACTORY RESET a World... looking HOW this had Affected the Sacrificial Engineer.
With LV-223 we do know that INDEED there are Consequences to using the Creation Tool, while Prometheus is Ambiguous i think that SPAIGHTS DRAFTS do give us more Clarity. With the Scarabs we could see more Clearly that it appeared at some POINT some of the Engineers had been Playing with Fire (Creation Scarabs) by using them to OBTAIN and Exploit the DNA of some other Organism that is the Biological Genesis of the Xenomorph if you would.
So i think that to LOOK at WHY would have been Important as it seems the Engineers Priority was Creation but also Survival and Especially if we look at Spaights Pitch. Back then the Engineers had been a Humanoid Race who over Millions of Years had made Advancements to Prolong their Lives, they abandoned Sexual Reproduction and eventually LOST the Ability to Procreate.
This would GIVE a Good Reason for the Sacrificial Scene if it was a ATTEMPT to Create/Evolve a Humanoid Species so that they can Procreate again? However Spaights had indicate that they Created us so that we can INHERIT what they had Created when the TIME had come for the Engineers to TRANSCEND from the Physical World into Multidimensional Beings.
This seems to Indicate the Engineers had managed to EXTEND their Lives but they had NOT really become IMMORTAL and so they was LOOKING at WAYS so they can LIVE-ON and their SOULS to be Free of the Restraints of a Biological Body.
By the TIME we get to his last Few Drafts we have NO indication of this.... it seemed to touch more on the Development of Various Xenomorphs to be USED to SMITE those they saw as a Threat or WHO they had Fallen Out of Favor with.
WHEN i look at the LAST Movie of the Franchise which is Alien Resurrection i find it Fascinating that the Xenomorph DNA had LED to RIPLEY 8 having the Memories of Ripley... this seemed to INDICATE the Xenomorph can PASS ON some kind of Genetic Memory Transfer.
To me this is KIND OF a KEY to some kind of Reincarnation and After-Life. If this is the CASE then THIS makes PERFECT sense for WHY those Engineers had began to Experiment with the Ancestor of the Xenomorph.... if it was to UNLOCK as to WHY maybe this Organism has Genetic Memory Transfer/Reincarnation.
This is NOT to say WHAT has been going on, i just think it would make PERFECT SENSE. But its likely that THEY had FAILED to Obtain this.... and all they could Create was HORRORS and so the Original Parasite that they Experimented on may have had a INTENTION but all they ENDED UP with was a Consequence.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017