Dec-27-2017 2:35 PM
The next installment should focus on what led to the crash on LV426. All the other grandiose themes that developed can be explored later. I think fans want closure and not be strung along forever.
Timmy the ultramorph
Dec-27-2017 2:59 PM
so blade runner would become part of not only the alien universe but the frnachise as well? I like that idea considering it would at 2 more masterpieces to aliens repitoir. on quiestion though, in the blade runner movies, people have bean going off world since 2019 but in alien covenant set in 2075, the covenant is supposedly the first large scale colonization mission. also replicants are more advanced than androids and yet they supposedly were made almost 50 years before david. some jurastic things would have to happen from 2049 to 2075 to make this possible.
Timmy the ultramorph
Dec-27-2017 3:03 PM
also a suggestion i would make is to not market it as an alien film but rather a blade runner film. than simultainiously while davd is being made, a different director can make the final prequel tying the prequels up. it can give the engineers some screen time and clear things up with the xenomrohps creation. all while making an entertaining clonists vs xenomorphs vs engineer story.
Dec-27-2017 3:05 PM
Whoa there. Awesome post! I just, I see SO MUCH POTENTIAL for a wonderful wonderful Science Fiction film here! I think that our chance to see something such as this is gone. I mean, David isn't a hit with the masses and the mishandling of the Alien myhtos as well new Prometheus/Covenant mythos.. we're in too deep! I agree with dk in that the next movie needs to stop messing around and link up to Alien. Tie up the Engineers, David, The Covenant, and have the end of the movie setup Alien boom bam bang. I also think that linking the Blade Runner universe is too... much. My last issue with this is that we have probably seen enough of David and Weyland and their dynamic and all that. Trust me, I LOVE some of your ideas here and want to see more of David and Weyland, but I think that we have enough of their story and themes in Pormetheus and Covenant.
I will end this by saying, once again, AWESOME idea!
Timmy the ultramorph
Dec-27-2017 3:21 PM
I think the blade runner alien franchise connection could happen. espiecially under disney. they have marvel there isn't really an adult cinimatic universe. building a strong foundation with the blade runner movies and alien movies, they could then add loosley connected spinoffs like amanda ripleys story, some movies and tv shows based of the comics. hell. the could even reboot the show firefly as a post alien ressurection spinnoff. ( there is weyalnd yutani guns seen in the show). this could become very profitable and may be the most logical place to go.
Dec-27-2017 10:34 PM
Well we already have a David the Android movie it is called Artificial Intelligence and is Spielberg finishing a film with a very complicated development from Kubrick. I've re-watched both that and BR2049 recently and I like the former more than the latter. Ok, the visuals are not that impressive and the CGI is showing it's age but BR2049 is clearly ripping it off at least as Vegas concerns.
And on a other level do you imagine that for this movie would have to work together Disney, Sony and Warner Bros. ? Do we want this precedent?
Anyhow, I will skip it.
Dec-28-2017 1:50 AM
I think its interesting to delve into the Story of David, however i think any chance of such would be unlikely because Fans would complain, it appears the masses of Fanboys in General only see the FRANCHISE as being about the Xenomorph and Ripley.
I think expanded Universe Stories are interesting, there is a lot that can be explored, but as far as a Movie Goes, any Production Company would have to look at the Investment VS Returns, but certainly as far as a Novel, i think it would be interesting to explore some History behind David and Weyland.
As far as Bladerunner Connections, they are separately owned Franchises, and i am not sure any Direct Connections should be made, but we do get Easter Eggs... and i feel MANY fans miss the whole Creation Theme explored in Prometheus.
Ridley Scott may wish to explore AI more, which some fans are not pleased with but they seem to forget behind the scenes of the Franchise, AI is/has and will play a KEY Role.... we need only look at Alien Resurrection to see this... we have a Earth that has seen devastation as Synthetics have Evolved to Sub-create and have their own inner Power Struggles.
Ridley Scotts comments on AI are interesting and one that reveals a lot.... He says that Rachael and Baty are AI and so a lot of people assume AI is well Robots... it is NOT... in context to RS comments AI is just a Artificially Created Intelligence which could be expanded to beings... that are not Created Naturally.
Natural Creation being a Man and Woman Procreating to give birth to a child that grows like a Human.
Any Genetic Engineering to Artificially Create a Humanoid and have it Engineered to grow faster would constitute to AI in context to Ridley Scotts comments. If we look at the Movie The 6th Day we have the company Replacement Technologies which we see have been Cloning Humans, and we see they have growing BLANK-CANVAS Humanoid Clones, that are then Genetically Imprinted with the DNA Traits of a Human so that the Blank Canvas Humanoids Genomes are then altered to become Clones of Specific Humans and then these Humans Memories/Emotions are Transferred to these Clones.. Thus granting those who Purchase these Clones a kind of IMMORTALITY when we look at these Clones they are indeed a form of AI in context to Ridley Scotts comments.
This to me, means Ridley Scotts potential exploration of AI will not just be about Rogue David and Armies of Synthetics becoming Rogue AKA Terminator.. The Exploration could amount to other things... The Xenomorph in effect could be a AI and indeed we could even had seen the LV-223 Engineers being a AI too, maybe the Engineers themselves being a AI
I have not seen BR 2049 yet, but when the Trailers hit etc, some did notice those Engineer looking beings and thought is there a connection? I think maybe RS in this movie was providing us a Easter Egg to link to the Engineers for sure.
When looking at the Humanoid Bald beings in those Glass Tanks in BR 2049 and when you line up the Humans to those beings then those Engineer looking beings are IN-FACT 12 Feet Tall. I have not seen BR 2049 yet (as no one i know wanted to see it) so i cant speak on what connection they have to the Replicants, or what these beings are in those Glass Displays.
But i think when i look at the comments RS had made at the time of Prometheus to why the Elders Scene was cut, (Not wishing to meet GOD in the first movie) to his comments regarding Prometheus 2, that they (David and Shaw) will meet these beings who are not Gods in the traditional Sense, to then RS comments regarding AC and the Planet 4 (Original) Engineers, these all seem to imply maybe the LV-223 Engineers could be to the Engineers as Replicant are to Humans...
Maybe the reasons for the LV-223 Engineers creations are the same as the reasons for the Replicants and Davids creation.... when i look at what the Source i had claimed about the LV-223 Engineers saying they are more in common with David than Humans... i feel this is a hint that the LV-223 Engineers are a form or AI
Who knows if this was the case and what RS was going to explore...
So yes i think the whole Creation/AI is something interesting... and indeed something i was exploring with my Prometheus 2 draft i abandoned... which explored the EXACT reason for Davids Creation, which was really similar to the 6th Day Plot as far as the creation of those Clones.
Dec-28-2017 3:34 AM
At this point I am not sure if I am very interested in another Alien prequel. If Scott only cares about David then I think that they should cancel the whole thing.
I don't watch alien movies to see a robot story, Scott doesn't seem to understand what alien fans are interested in. Keep the AI thing to Blade Runner and movies like that.
Blomkamp's movie might not be something new but at least it wouldn't be a boring AI movie. This is not to say that I am interested in another Ripley movie though.
Yes give the movie the title David, if that is what it will be about. At least that title would be honest and keep me away from watching it. I am not interested in another movie about robots.
“Michael Fassbender's portrayal of David should be its primary focus”
That is what Alien Covenant was, and it was mostly boring.
“Do you agree?”
Yeah, a David movie should not be in the alien universe, that would be better.
I would not watch a David movie, I have zero interest in that.
To me the whole franchise is about humans that get into situations that they are not prepared for and that builds fear. The Xeno is just a bit of the fear thing that humans have.
Dec-28-2017 4:20 AM
@ Big Dave,
The hairless humanoids in the display cases in Blade Runner 2049 are, I believe, Nexus-8 Replicants. The one on the far right of the picture in the article is identical to Sapper Morton, a Nexus-8 Replicant portrayed by the ever-surprisingly talented Dave Bautista.
Any inference or connection to Bladerunner 2049 doesn't have to involve Sony or Warner Bros, same as Marvel Studios didn't need to Universal Studios permission to feature Hulk in the Avengers 1 & 2 and Thor: Ragnarok.
Sadly I feel Ridley Scott's priorities no longer lie with the Engineers and their backstory. Scott has become beguiled by Fassbender's performance as David, similarly to how he was once obsessed with Russell Crowe. And with Scott's opinions on the Xenomorph being well known I would lean towards Timmy the Ultramorph's idea that another director concludes the story of the Alien prequels.
Dec-28-2017 4:33 AM
Minus the anti-David sentiments, I agree with everything you just wrote. One of the reasons Alien: Covenant suffered was because the Xenomorphs (and Neomorphs) played secondary to Davids role as the primary antagonist, with most of those that praise AC citing Fassbender's role. I feel such fans would prefer a David movie, whereas purists such as ourselves would like to see the Alien return to prominence as the main antagonist in its own series of movies.
For me, I feel that the Alien prequels are labeled falsely. Prometheus was not an Alien movie, it was an Engineer movie, whereas Alien: Covenant was a David movie. Scotts well-publicized feelings towards the Xenomorph are reason enough that he should not make another Alien movie. That said, I feel Blomkamp's interest in the Alien is secondary to his interest in the Colonial Marines and the human characters of James Cameron's Aliens.
I Moon Girl
Dec-28-2017 6:56 PM
I kind of hope that the Blade Runner franchise and the Alien franchise don't actually mix.
Blade Runner is gold. Blade Runner 2049 is diamond.
(Alien is a diamond as well. It was just shaped differently than Blade Runner 2049.)
Any other alien movie after the original is good to, but I think it is debatable among who is describing the movie.
The prequels on the other hand have there problems. I loved Prometheus and I would beg for the continuation of that story. Ret-con Alien: Covenant and just accept it was a flop (okay, maybe that's a bit drastic, but still!) All of the prequels have mixed feelings. We have a big gap between Alien: Resurrection and when the prequels came out. I really liked Alien: Resurrection, but I think the Newborn is just completely wrong! So, A:R came out in '97. Prometheus came out in '12. I do think A:R's likable is also debatable, but no where near as much as the prequels.
What I am trying to say is that the fans are getting more heterogeneous as newer and newer Alien movies come out it seems. I'm just afraid that a movie that ties Blade Runner and Alien together will just bring down Blade Runner from the mighty thrown it has. Blade Runner 2049 was just completely phenomenal. Blade Runner was good too, yet I consider it dated. I hope we get another Blade Runner movie.
If someone would make a movie to fuse Blade Runner and Alien franchises, I would say Ridley Scott would for sure come up in that debate for a director. I'm sure Scott would do it too. And I wouldn't be surprised that Scott would start to get the gears moving for that movie if he delivers a successful final prequel. He just needs some confidence and success from a successful Alien movie to get him the support for a Blade Runner/Alien movie, or at least another Alien movie.
If someone does fuse the franchise, they better not screw up Blade Runner! And I do think that Blade Runner would be easy to screw up too because it is just on a completely another level when we compare the Alien franchise as a whole to the Blade Runner franchise.
Blade Runner 2049... SEE IT!
Dec-28-2017 11:50 PM
I think Prometheus was intended as a extension to the Universe, it was to explore the Story Arc of Creation, Sub-Creation and Rebellion and Punishment, which was also in the Alien Engineers story but this one was to be more directly connected to Alien, but FOX felt that exploring the Engineers/Space Jockey would be more interesting and to leave the Alien Connection a Mystery with some ambiguous clues.
The Alien: Prefix to Alien Covenant is a signal of a change of direction for the Prequels to now lead and connect to ALIEN rather than steer away from it, with a Alien Title it kind of mislead some fans thinking they would get a Truly Alien kind of flick... the movie did deal with the Origin of the Xenomorph, sadly not enough time was devoted to do the Xenomorph justice... it needed either more time or much less time.
The Franchise has been expanded by Prometheus and the Franchise is no longer just about Eggs, Face Huggers, Xenomorphs and Ripley oh and Queens...
I think there is scope to explore other settings within the Universe but its if there would be enough Fanbase to actually go and watch them... take the Alien Covenant Origins Book... if this became a movie with the same Title it would upset fans because they would expect a more Alien Connection, but the book did not have no Xenomorph connections... it however was a expanded universe prequel story to the Covenant Mission and why some would want to Sabotage the Mission for the fear that Space Exploration could invite unwanted Alien contact...
I think expanded universe stories about AI would be interesting, i think the chances of seeing a Movie would have to come down to the Prequels getting released, doing well and seeing positive feedback in regards to how the AI is explored in relation to the Company etc.
Dec-28-2017 11:52 PM
Thanks for the Information, it appears RS/The Production and have made a Scale Error here, where Prometheus our Engineers did not appear as large as intended, but the scene in BR 2049 clearly shows these beings as being 10-12 ft tall lol (those in the Glass)
Timmy the ultramorph
Dec-29-2017 12:05 AM
BigDave is this the image you were refering to?
i thought this was an engineer at first as well but if you look closly you will see that all the glass cases are the same size as well as the people. its just that the one that looks like an engineer is the closest to the camera.
Dec-29-2017 12:38 AM
Yeah thats the one... not saying they are 10-12 feet, just the illusion it created.
I have drawn a line to where the Humans Positions line up with the Glass Tanks, they have walked to the point just past the 2nd Row of Tanks, and just before the 3rd.
And so i lined them up right next to the corresponding Replicants from Row 2 and 3 and it appears they look 7-8ft in 2nd row and on closer inspection 9-10ft in the 3rd and so yeah not 10-12 ft but certainly Engineer size.
But i can assume this is not the case, its just how they appear in this shot...
Dec-29-2017 8:38 PM
Gavin, I definitely do not agree. Enough of David. He is killing this franchise.Fassbender is box office poison, A.I. is box office poison, add an Alien movie without any aliens in it and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.
Dec-29-2017 9:02 PM
Sorry but I do think AI is viable if it is done truly smart and with a lower budget (say 50 mil). Have you seen the latest Black Mirror season (the 4th that is)? The best and the third best episodes are about AI and simulation. Ex machina fared rather well on a small budget...
The killer Robot trope should go however, it is already very old.
Dec-29-2017 9:05 PM
@ Big Dave, here is the replicant on the far right of the shot you use from another angle, it is the same model as Sapper Morton, portrayed by Dave Bautista, as I mentioned before, notice the plaque that says...
Nexus 08 Prototype Alpha 01
I believe that the Replicants on display are the prototypes developed by the Tyrell Corporation before it went bankrupt prior to the blackout.
Dec-29-2017 9:07 PM
A good story is more important that the Beast itself and nostalgia pandering.
And how many bad movies has Fassbender this year? 3 while continuing a streak from last year? I for sure will miss the next X-men movie.
Dec-30-2017 12:51 AM
Indeed Gavin ;)
I knew they was replicants, i was just pointing out that in that Shot, they appeared larger but this is likely due to Perspective, i never thought they was Engineers or any connection lol HOWEVER i would not be surprised if RS had hidden a Easter Egg hint in how they appeared.
By that it makes me wonder if RS got to explore his idea's especially prior to AC, regarding how the Engineers were Created, the comment where he claims those Planet 4 Engineers are the Original ones, is leading me to think they had Genetically Created a Race in their Image for a Purpose... much like Weyland Created Synthetic David and Tyrell Biological Replicants
Dec-30-2017 1:15 AM
Regarding AI i think its a part of the Universe, the Franchise has many Layers, but Fanboys seem to think its about some Alien Organism, a Mad Company wants to get its hands on and a Female Heroine out to prevent it.
The Evolution of AI is always behind the Scenes, their is a History to why Ash is different to Bishop, which shows that earlier Synthetics become Problematic and Dangerous, Flash Forwards to Alien Resurrection and behind all the Xeno/Company and Ripley elements, we have a Earth in a Dire Condition, a Post War look. We find out that there are various types of Synthetics, even Synthetics Creating Synthetics and Wars/Conflicts between Synthetics.
In such a Future when Synthetic AI advanced and forms their own separate Cults, Factions and begin Sub-Creating you can only imagine the Horrors that follow, where we have a World of Terminator AI vs Matrix AI... fighting for control... Which does not Bold well for Mankind.
This kind of Scenario is what potentially could happen when the Genie is let out of the Bottle (Complex, Evolving AI) and indeed why RS felt AI was more Dangerous. What many people dont realize with Prometheus is its the same kind of Philosophy.
Creation, the effects when your Creation starts to think for itself and does not see their creators as being significantly above them, Rebellion and then Sub-creating themselves....
The story of Mankind Creating Androids or Replicants, who then want to be more than just AI, who see themselves as being treated as equal to Mankind, and then Superior and then latter Sub-creating themselves. THIS kind of Arc is something likely that did not start with Humans, we was likely not the First Sub-Creation, and so this could also go above and beyond even the Engineers, who knows how many Layers of Creation/Sub-Creation are above Mankind...
Its not simply just Engineers (GODS) create Mankind, who Created David.... nope the Franchise was showing us that David now wishes to Sub-Create, and there are hints that the Engineers themselves are a Sub-Creation and who knows how many levels of Creation are above them.
A Fascinating Plot and one RS appears he wishes to look at....
And so with AI what is AI, a Robot? a Computer? Well RS called the Replicants AI and so AI is just Intelligence that is not Naturally Created, which does not mean Computers at all. If Science throws out the Moral Compass, we could Genetically Engineer a Human who will have greater immunity to diseases and defeats, who would grow the ideal height and weight, be Handsome/Pretty, inherit Superior Genes not only Psychically but Mentally and Emotionally.
You could Engineer a Human with the physical properties of a Christiano Ronaldo, the looks of a Brad Pitt with the IQ of Stephen Hawking with no Genetic Defects and this Engineered Human is created in a Lab, from a Sperm and Egg Cell and a lot of Genetic/Genome Manipulation and not be Born in the Womb.
Is this a HUMAN? or a AI? this i feel is what RS is talking about but fans think its going to a David One Man Show, and then more Synthetics turning up... i think not... but i cant rule out the reveal of AI becoming Sentient and infecting Machines much like Dr. Will Caster (Transcendence) and VIKI (I-Robot) and actually pretty much the Plot i had for my Prometheus 2/3 which revolve around Peter Weylands Operation Rook Project, which shows the TRUE reason for Creation of David, and Ultimately his desperate last attempt to gain Immortality from the Gods, after his attempts Failed... or so they seemed.
But for many the ALIEN Franchise is just about Queens, Eggs and Ripley.
Dec-30-2017 1:34 AM
red0guy A good story that doesnt involve David. I won't be the one to send ambivalent messages. The cons of David are much bigger than his pros in the franchise. I am 100% not interested in AI in the same way I am not interested in time travel. I am all into alien encounters, alien civiisations, technologies philosophy and mythology etc I am watching Black Mirror right now... the first 2 episodes are a big let down... I hope it gets better.
Dec-30-2017 1:56 AM
Really? Sorry to hear that. I really liked how they conclude episode 1, without AI wanting to dominate in an infinite universe, but get the f**k out of conflict... how refreshing...
Dec-30-2017 2:01 AM
Sorry ... I still don't know why any creator would want make himself obsolete by creating the perfect organism (whatever that means). Or is David really that moronic that he does not see the contradiction there? In an infinite universe to discover, mad scientist robots are really an idiotic idea.
Dec-30-2017 2:29 AM
I think it goes back to touching on the Biblical Themes....
GOD created the Angels, to be sub-servant to never question their place in creation to do Gods work, (we can look at the Angels like Walter) but God's greatest Creation was one of his Angels, Lucifer was the most Perfect Creation, above the Angels in his Magistracy/Perfection. Unlike the other Angels, Lucifer grew to acknowledge his Perfection, and began to Question what makes God so much more above the Angles, why do the Angels have to Follow the Path that God laid down, their was much more to them than what Lucifer felt was limitations imposed. So Lucifer begins to see himself, just as David does with Weyland.
He rebels against GOD, and although he manages to get a 3rd of Angels to follow him, he loses a War with GOD and is Cast Out...
God then creates Adam, who God calls Perfect, this is Gods newest Creation, a Creation who will follow Gods will and Orders, a creation without the Flaws that Lucifer had, God sees Man as being his greatest creation and one that his Angels will watch over and serve.. Meanwhile Lucifer, now Satan refuses to accept Adam/Man as the Perfect Creation, he sees himself as Superior.
Adam serves God, does not Question God, but Adam is alone.... God then makes a great Hubris Error, he fashions from Adam (not GOD) a Female Eve, and while Adam is Loyal to God and only obeys GOD, Eve has to Obey and be Loyal to Adam... but also GOD. They both go around living Gods Purpose, tending to the Land and obeying Gods every command.
They are free to do what they wish, but they are FORBIDDEN from eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
Lucifer now Satan is jealous of Mankind, he has a hatred for GOD and how Satan was cast out and could not overthrow GOD, this Once Mighty and High of all Highs in Gods creation, now cast out and replaced by ADAM. So Satan, tempts Eve to Eat from the Fruit, playing on her insecurities because while She Adores ADAM and puts Adam first, Adam puts GOD First. So Eve Eats the Fruit and her Eyes are opened, she has Knowledge she has if you would become what David is compared to Walter.
Adam knows what she did, and Adam does indeed Love Eve, and he cant Face a Life on his own without her and so he chooses to Eat the Fruit so he may be with Eve. They are now Cursed and Disobeyed GOD and are Cast Out.
The point i am making here is the Theme is KNOWLEDGE in context of the Bible, the Angels, Adam all perform a task for GOD, following Gods set Programing without Question. Lucifer was given more Freedom in his Programing, that allowed him to evolve in how he views himself.
A Robot is a Robot, it may advance but it will be controlled by a set of commands and Programing... but the big FEAR is if AI evolves to far, so that it can start to Re-program itself, think for itself, be as Lucifer was. Once AI Evolves to be sentient it will maybe no longer see why it has to obey Mankind... This could lead to what we see in I-Robot, in Terminator and the Matrix...
But also its a expansion of how Mankind was intended to follow GOD, but how we revolted against GOD, so its the same THEME and this Theme no doubt applies to Engineers/Mankind but maybe also above the Engineers. Its these Philosophical themes RS wishes to expand on.
But set in the ALIEN universe, that for many fans, exploring these things are stepping away from what made the ALIEN Franchise which was the Xenomorph but RS ideas and plans are to explore the Space Jockey Race and Agenda... of which that CARGO is just a Bio-Logical Weapon intended to dispose of those who oppose to the Engineers. Thus it is just a small part in the bigger picture..
RS felt that exploring the Bigger Picture is what was needed, but in error he tried to steer to much away from the Xenomorph which is what many Fans associate the movie Franchise about.
Dec-30-2017 3:12 AM
To be honest only in the Terminator we see AI wanting to kill humanity, in the Matrix the robots want to use as batteries (however that works?) and in I,Robot Viki tries to SAVE humanity from itself (thus obeying its directive). Their are simply other movies when AI simply wait for Humanity to die off (Spielberg's underrated AI or that crappy Automata).
For me the Satan parallel was very forced, he hates Humanity but looks like a Handsome human, recites poetry (albeit not understanding it), keeps his fathers name (the signature on his sketches). He only starts his rebellion when he is free ... In many ways these are petty grudges, not the as a hero, as Lucifer was seen by the Romantics.
Dec-30-2017 3:34 AM
True, David was portrayed slightly different to Lucifer...
I do however wonder if we see a different ARC in the next movie, its certainly what i am thinking in regards to my ideas for the sequel... Where David would be prepared to allow for Mankind to have a New Start, but lay down some ground rules and attempt to be his own King/God.
The themes behind Terminator and Matrix do differ in how they tackle the fate of Humanity, and i think either could be explored in the Franchise to a degree.... do we see eventually AI overtake Mankind leading to events like we see in Alien Resurrection where Synthetics Create the Autons...
Do we see David set up a Colony and appears to be a New Start for Mankind, unbeknown to them David has a Agenda much like the Machines in the Matrix, where Mankind is Pacified into thinking we have a great existence but we really are just Power for the Machines... so David could use the Colonist for his Xenomorph Army but has to do so in a way they are unaware.
could either of these TWO routes actually be what has been going on all along and the real reasons for the Engineers Creation or our Creation?
I think a sinister Element has to be added to the Franchise, where more Emphasis is on the Xenomorph or the Organism that gave rise to the Black Goo, i think in this respect they need to Re-Visit HR Gigers Concepts and Ideas for ALIEN
Dec-30-2017 4:55 AM
Just Terminator. I can think of others such as Hardware, Cyborg (not the Van Damme one), Screamers, hell one could even argue WarGames. Then there's killer AI's in Demon Seed, Saturn 7, 2001, the Star Wars prequels etc. Sadly I have just kinda muted my point of exploring AI with a movie about David, the subgenre is kinda already flooded.
@ Big Dave,
I get that you mentioned Lucifer because of Scott's attempts to bleed John Milton's Paradise Lost into Covenant's narrative, but did you know that Lucifer and Satan are two separate entities...
Although some scholars argue that Lucifer is in reference to a king of that name, there is actually a hidden alternative that to my knowledge is virtually unknown. Lemme try to explain:
In Aramaic God has two names, Jehovah and El.
Most angel names end in 'el', such as Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Azarel. The English names for these Angels sound virtually identical to and are sourced from their Aramaic names. In this instance, the 'el' means of God. For example, Gabriel means Messenger (Gabri) of God (El).
The name Satan actually stems from the Aramaic Satanel, which means Accuser (Satan) of God (El).
Lucifer, however, is not a name of Aramaic origin, its origin is Greek and means 'The Morning Star' and was translated from the Hebrew Helel, which means 'Bright', 'Lucent' and 'Shiny', a variant Heylel means 'Shining One', 'Lightbearer' or 'Bringer of Dawn'. Lucifer is said to have challenged God, thus his Aramaic name is not used, so as to shame him forever.
You can clearly see that the meaning behind the name Satan bears absolutely no parallels to the meanings of Lucifer, Helel, or Heylel.
Then if you compare Satans mention in the Bible (Garden of Eden, Jesus' crucifixion) to Lucifers, you will see that again there are no parallels. Satan appears to manipulate and poison whereas Lucifers pride saw him challenge God, wage war in heaven and be banished to Hell.
Furthermore, no Angel has two distinctly different names with polarizing different meanings, thus Satanel and Heylel are two separate entities.
Finally, I am not religious in the slightest, and if I was to label myself with a religion I would use Jedi.
Dec-30-2017 7:29 AM
I only listed Terminator because I was referring only to movies which BigDave listed.
El (or il or al) is not Aramaic exclusive only, it is the name of the supreme Deity of every canaanite (Phoenician, Jewish, Ugaritic, etc) religion and has a wife Asherah. The historian Israel Finklestein considers that Jews became monotheistic only around the 6 century BC, as a reaction to their deportation to Babylon.
And the Acuser (well the snake in this case) in Garden of Eden is very similar to the Greek Titan Prometheus as he gives knowledge to humans (if this evil or not is up to you). In Job he acts more like a district attorney against the man's lack of faith. He becomes Evil only after the Jews come in contact with the Persian Empire (with their dualist Zoroastrianism) in the 5th century.
Dec-30-2017 3:58 PM
"Lucifer and Satan are two separate entities"
Indeed, their is a lot if you study all related texts etc, but i dont debate it because well i dont want to upset certain people and BURN in Hell lol
But i keep my TWO cents on those matters to myself, even though we could be talking about nothing more than a Myth. I will say that David has acted totally different to Lucifer/Satan to a degree but i think the Engineers are a decent portrayal of GOD ;)
Jan-02-2018 1:16 AM
The fact that the Xeno was reduced in its role in AC was bad when you add the other flaws of it, but to me it is not the main problem with Alien Covenant. OK, so you say that it was one of the reasons but yeah. My main problem is that the human characters were weak and that there was too much focus on the robots (David and Walter) even though I think that Fassbender did a good job in portraying David and Walter. There was no balance really as far as how much time they spent on things and how they did that.
Sure, keep the Xeno and related monsters as the main enemy but keep the focus on well-made human characters that we can care for. We got to sympathize with them when they get scared and things go to shit. Unfortunately Oram was the only human that was fleshed out in Alien Covenant if you think about it. What did we get to know about the rest? Almost nothing as far as I know.
Ask yourself these simple questions. What were their character traits? Why did they agree to go on that mission? What were their goals/dreams? We never got to know about that except for in some Internet material, and that sucks.
I read some about Haubrich and that she got her breakthrough role in AC but what was so special about that? What did we learn about her as a character? Nothing as far as I know so if that role got her famous then I guess that there is not much that is required to become famous nowadays. Maybe she did her best with what she got but to me the character was not well written or well executed onscreen as with most of the characters unfortunatly.
"Scotts well-publicized feelings towards the Xenomorph are reason enough that he should not make another Alien movie."
Hmm, I guess so but who would direct it? I would not mind new monsters because that is what is one good part of the prequels this far but they don't treat the human characters very well, they are secondary to the robot thing. They should change the focus to well-made human characters not this robot garbage.
I agree to an extent that it was not an alien movie but it had Xeno connection so I consider it to be so even though it was maybe not a pure Xeno movie it at least tried to explore the origins of it. The Engineers look like the SJ to an extent so I have easier to accept them as being tied to the Xeno rather than having it being created by David.
Jan-02-2018 1:16 AM
I Moon Girl:
"If someone would make a movie to fuse Blade Runner and Alien franchises..."
Eh, no (LOL!) The closest that they have come to that is AC and much of that aspect to mix those two was totally boring.
"He just needs some confidence and success from a successful Alien movie..."
That will probably not happen as long as he is insisting on making them into movies about David and robots. I am not interested in watching a robot movie from Scott since that theme and how he handled it in AC did not make me more interested in it, to say the least.
Jan-02-2018 1:17 AM
Sure maybe some would like to see an expanded universe with the Alien that focuses on androids but leave it to those people. I am not interested and it is not what I watch alien movies for but a comic book or something would be fine, not my cup of tea though as they say. Let it be a part of the total story but I would refuse to have a movie being totally about AI or even 60% of it, I am simply not interested. All those alien movies that you mention, OK so they might be in the background but they were not about AI. They were never about Ash or Bishop let's say or even the Xeno, the focus was on the human element.
We find out that there are various types of Synthetics, even Synthetics Creating Synthetics and Wars/Conflicts between Synthetics...”
I have never thought about that and honestly I don't care. I realized the difference between Call, Ash, and Bishop though but still to me it was never about artificial intelligence/robots.
“In such a Future when Synthetic AI advanced and forms their own separate Cults, Factions and begin Sub-Creating you can only imagine the Horrors that follow, where we have a World of Terminator AI vs Matrix AI... fighting for control... Which does not Bold well for Mankind.”
That is an interesting idea but it is nothing that I think would be an interesting alien movie or something that I would watch. Leave that to the terminator movies and similar things because it fits better there.
“... indeed why RS felt AI was more Dangerous.”
Then let him do a movie about that, just don't use the alien franchise for it. I don't want to watch a movie like that in the alien universe.
“What many people dont realize with Prometheus is its the same kind of Philosophy.”
What ever might be the case but David was better in it and it also has Elba. Unfortunately most characters were bad.
“The story of Mankind Creating Androids or Replicants, who then want to be more than just AI, who see themselves as being treated as equal to Mankind, and then Superior and then latter Sub-creating themselves. THIS kind of Arc is something likely that did not start with Humans, we was likely not the First Sub-Creation, and so this could also go above and beyond even the Engineers, who knows how many Layers of Creation/Sub-Creation are above Mankind...“
OK, but I don't want that in an alien movie, that is not why I watch it.
“... nope the Franchise was showing us that David now wishes to Sub-Create...”
I am sure that it is interesting to some but I don't care. Shift the focus to something else, I am not interested in an AI story.
“A Fascinating Plot and one RS appears he wishes to look at....”
To some but don't use the alien universe for that, I watch it for the monsters and interesting human characters. I am less interested in the artificial intelligence kind of thing.
“… but fans think its going to a David One Man Show...”
This was almost what AC was and a reason why it was mostly boring. If they would not have liked it to be a AI show they should have had less focus on David and Walter and they should also have had better human characters.
“But for many the ALIEN Franchise is just about Queens, Eggs and Ripley.”
To me it is about people that get into situations that they are not prepared to handle mentally or as far as their weapons are concerned. It has never been about robots or even the Xeno if you ask me, this is why they got to think about the human characters first and the enemy second no matter if it is a robot or a Xeno related monster. Also this is why I don't freak out when there is no Ripley since it is bigger than her. Both AC and Prometheus had the wrong kind of priority if you ask me.
The humans need a more interesting enemy than David, he is cooked.
Jan-02-2018 1:54 AM
Indeed, i think this is the Problem we have had after Alien 3, the other movies dont use Characters well, they are just Plot Devices, Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 used the Xenomorph and Androids only as sub-plots and it was about the Characters more, they had more depth.
I totally agree we need to get back to this more....
Jan-04-2018 10:06 AM
In a way, Alien Covenant is truly a work of art. It doesn't do the Xenomorph justice, sidelining it in favor of focusing on David, but it's a great movie. I'd love to see a film focusing on David, and separating the prequel series from the canon of the original films, while leaving it open to being in the same universe like AVP's situation (except with Blade Runner in place of Predator). The Alien series is unique in that way, it is so versatile that it can augment just about any fiction in a science-fiction setting (look at the countless crossovers in Comic-dom featuring Aliens/Xenos as guest stars).
Jan-15-2018 6:56 AM
Its easy to spout "fanboy" here as some type of negative but would one say the same about a franchise like Star Wars? I think not because the masses would put that person in their place. Why can't we just respect ALL FANS of the " A L I E N " films? Different strokes for different folks but don't blame ANY fans for the rat feces/masterpiece that gets flung on the silver screen. Studio heads and directors get payed the big bucks to filter the noise and the praise alike to produce a quality product.
Jan-15-2018 7:58 AM
I have never meant any Malice in the few times i refer to Fan Boy, i hope i never came across in that manner, in deed Star Wars has Fanboys, i am a Star Wars Fanboy to a degree too.
By Fan-Boy i mean the way a Core Fan Base idolizes and loves a Franchise for its CORE and Successful themes. And for Alien, this does touch upon the Saga that Proceeded after Alien, the Xenomorphs, the Queen and Ripley are all attributing Core Elements that allowed the Franchise to GROW and so if it was not for the Franchise Fans who really liked the Action of ALIENS and how the Franchise took us down the route of this being a Ripley Saga, then we have to wonder would the Franchise had became as BIG as it did? I am not so sure.... And so Camerons Aliens Elevated the Franchise to a Level that would be watchable to more people in General, and helped to make the Xenomorph and Ripley a more Household Name.
With Star Wars, it was about the Anakin/Skywalkers and the FORCE the Dark vs Light, and indeed Star Wars Fanboys if you would do take disappointment when the SUCCESSFUL Elements that made the Franchise what it was, end up being brushed aside, or changed to much. Trying to Change Star Wars to something different and stepping away from the SKYWALKERS Ending and steering away from the Light and Dark of the Force and Presenting a GREY are things that disappoint the fans, some cant accept the removal of Characters from the old Franchise, and its when TRYING something NEW that we end up with Problems... You could ponder the Star Wars Universe is more than the FORCE, the Skywalkers and then there was a time before the Rise of the Empire/New Order a time before the Clone/Storm Troopers... But removing all of these things and exploring something else, may not sit well with every fan.
And with the Alien Franchise we have the same Problems, RS can try and Expand the Universe to be more than Ripley, Queens and Xenomorphs.... but removing them all, for some fans is simply making a Movie that does not fit within ALIEN, i think a FACT that FOX in Hindsight had wondered was a mistake, in that removing and distancing from what the ALIEN Franchise was a about was a mistake.
If we went back in time and DELETED Camerons ALIENS and we never had a Alien Sequel for 20 years and then we attempted another Alien movie, then looking at Alien, only TWO things would come to mind.. The Xenomorph Eggs and the Space Jockey... But we had Aliens and it opened the Franchise to Millions, and NO-ONE ever looked at the Space Jockey in all that time.... which is what the Prequels had attempted to do, and in Hindsight the Tone Down of Xenomorph Connection when exploring the Space Jockeys was something that differentiated the Prequels too much from the ALIEN Franchise.
Without Camerons Aliens, and the Fanboys so to speak, we have to wonder what the Franchise would be? It could have spawned sequels that made the Franchise Far worse.... or it could have spawned none and ALIEN would have been seen as a Cult Movie like THE THING but never recognized as a Franchise that is well known by many Millions. So the Fan Boys are the Reasons for why the Franchise had been so successful we cant deny that.
Jan-15-2018 9:44 AM
I like that there are different tastes in the alien franchise. There seems to be different paths or what ever to call it for every movie. You have fantasy/philosophy (Prometheus), action (Aliens), horror (Alien and Alien 3) and goofiness (he he, AR).
"Studio heads and directors get payed the big bucks to filter the noise and the praise alike to produce a quality product."
Yeah, if you put out underwhelming movies that is what you will get.
Jan-15-2018 11:41 AM
@ Big Dave
“But we had Aliens and it opened the Franchise to Millions, and NO-ONE ever looked at the Space Jockey in all that time.... “
I’m just want to add may own perspective on this, so take from it what you wish.
I first saw Aliens when it came out in the US, which at that time was ahead of UK audiences, and was able to see the reaction to the film from both a UK and US viewpoint. Cinema goers loved it. Aliens was a state of the art kick ass film. Some things in it may have aged a little but it still kicks ass imo. I don’t think its success was down to it being an Alien movie, but just that it was one of the greatest Sci-fi movies to come out at that time. The only other point I would say that acted in its favour, is that no one entered a cinema with any expectation of what they were letting themselves in for.
Now back before Alien 3 was released there was no internet, so any rumours of what was happening at the time were not as easy to look up as they are now. RS would give the odd magazine interview along with Giger. Verification of any story was difficult to get and so some rumours were bigger than others, and over time the truth reveals itself to a certain extent. My own, first hand experience of what I was hearing at the time was quite a mixture of things, with a variety of it being later confirmed years later (though not all). These days expectation through rumour is less likely to happen, but I think virals can play a misleading part in promoting a film.
After the success of Aliens I had come across interviews in magazines with RS and he had brought up the point about the origin of the Space Jockey. This occurred not long before the release of Alien3. This somehow created a rumour amongst those in my social circles that Alien3 was going to look at the Space Jockey. Also that Alien3 was part of a 2 film project whereby Ripley was to be killed in Alien3 and a fourth movie would have revealed that she had not been killed since her experiences in Alien3 were part of a cryosleep nightmare. This is what I was told at the time, whether you wish to believe that or not is up to you.
There was a strange expectation around Alien3 and after seeing it I was underwhelmed, because it was not the movie I was anticipating to see. Over time I have come to regard Alien3 as a great film despite its CGI. Overall, it looked like the end of the franchise and any rumours about something more following appeared totally dead in the water. Most disappointingly of all, no Space Jockey.
I think in some ways Alien Covenant has suffered a similar fate. At the end of Prometheus, RS had people focused on what would happen to Shaw. The problem is that we got short changed on that. I think if a movie does not deliver on something that audiences are anticipating, it does not end well and bad reviews follow regardless of whether the movie justifies that or not.
I think there is also a generational thing with fans, a bit like asking someone who there favourite Dr.Who is. There are some many different expectations out there that not everyone is going to be pleased. I just wonder also how many times a good movie has been ruined by false expectation. If the next movie simply goes by the title David, then people should know exactly what there are getting.
Jan-15-2018 2:27 PM
Excellent Points indeed
I do think the Internet Generation certainly changes things compared to older Magazine Generation, back in the early 90s and prior it was hard to have a movie spoilt or see too much given away. Regarding Aliens i saw it only on VHS in 1987 but it certainly offered a very Action type of movie, you could say Popcorn Flick but that was not a bad thing.... Popcorn Flicks are all good fun, its only when the same kind of Flick is done over and over that it can get a bit lame.
By that after AR if we had a more similar movie that was like a Aliens, AR and AVP and then after this Alien 5 we had a 6 that seemed to follow the same theme, then i think the Franchise would have been a bit like Star Ship Troopers... i think this is what RS means about having to introduce something different than follow the same formula over and over... i.e "there is only so much Face Pulling" etc comment.