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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel by Ridley Scott

Alien: Covenant

COUNTDOWN TO COVENANT MISSION LAUNCH:

What really happened to the Engineers in Prometheus, something everyone missed!

What really happened to the Engineers in Prometheus, something everyone missed!
Chris

Written By Chris on 2017-01-08 20:38:32

With Ridley Scott returning to the expansion of his Alien universe this year with the theatrical release of the Prometheus sequel Alien: Covenant, many fans have begun re-analyzing parts of Prometheus. One such scene which to this day puzzles many is the Hologram recording scene which involved a group of Engineers running away from something off-camera. At first everyone assumed it was a Black Goo infection, but that really doesn't make much sense when you break down the scenes leading up to and following that particular series of events.

After re-watching Prometheus for what feels like the hundredth time, I noticed a few new details which I and most of the fandom had overlooked prior to today. This post will detail these points and explain how and why we may have purposely been led astray upon our initial viewing of the Alien prequel.

Entering the Engineer Temple - Overlooked Detail

The Engineers on LV-223 were all dead except for one in the temple / Pyramid the Prometheus crew investigated. That one survivor was left in a cryo-chamber asleep. The Hologram recording insinuates all the other Engineers were dead and that none escaped.

The entrance to that temple required the Prometheus crew to physically crouch down and wiggle their way through a broken door. Screenshots below clearly show a curved door frame and what seem to be layers of a stone/metallic door, of which the final panel was busted in.

There is no way and Engineer would fit through that small portion of open door. The only way an Engineer would fit is if he were to crawl in or out. Thus, the door to the Temple was clearly shut or in the process of closing when something busted in or out of it.

This shot above shows clear cuts and straight metallic borders on each panel, indicating that this was not simply a "hole in the Pyramid". 

The following screenshot is of the on-board camera feed from back on the USCSS Prometheus, where Janek and the rest of the crew observed the initial descent into the Engineer Pyramid structure. The top right feed gives us another look at the clearly broken door.

Again, there is absolutely no way this door was merely left open - Engineers would have no way in or out if so. This suggests the Temple may have fallen prey to an attack, rather than an outbreak...

The passageway into the Pyramid in ruins

As the Prometheus crew make their way into the Pyramid, they follow the only logical path laid before them. This path also seems to be filled with debris, as if the structure had been partially destroyed in some sense. The following screenshots will help illustrate these points:

As you can see, specifically in the screenshot directly above this paragraph, the rock debris is littered in a way that would suggest something broke its way into the Pyramid rather than broke out.

As the crew continue to follow the obvious pathway into the structure, they find themselves in a circular room, where (to the displeasure of many fans) the crew remove their helmets after discovering the Pyramid was generating an atmosphere. But let's ignore the helmet removal, the big clue here is the way they entered the room. Again, notice the Engineer markings on yet another circular door, which is yet again broken, not left open. Noticing a trend yet?

In the above frame, the debris is actually somewhat of an obstacle as it lays directly in front of them as they make their way into the room. Again, the big slabs of rock, which seem to have rolled inwards indicate the door was busted in, not out.

This second angle shows more of the debris. Notice, nowhere else in the room is there debris like this. So, this also confirms that the Engineers do not decorate their installations with rocks - much the disappointment of Fifield, I imagine.

Keep in mind also, whether scientific or military, an advanced race of super-Humans would surely maintain a certain level of cleanliness and organization for such an important and secret installation.

The Green Goo on the Hologram control panel

Something many fans seem to ignore is the very specific moment when David discovers green goo on the Hologram control panel. This is not Black Goo and it looks very reminiscent of Xenomorph saliva, however it's not. Upon closer analyzing the goo, David remarks "impressive..." and when zoomed in, it looks like the Goo consists of intricate cells which are seemingly still active, even after 2,000 years (assuming carbon dating is accurate to use on an Alien organism).

Why is the Goo on the controls? The Engineers do not emit Goo through their hands, nor do their suits excrete such a substance. If it were from an unknown Alien creature, like a Xenomorph, why would it have its head pressed against a wall for its saliva to smear across it? Seems odd, doesn't it? What if this was blood... blood of an Alien creature we have not yet seen?

Clue Summary 1: There was NO outbreak, the Pyramid was attacked!

The above evidence would suggest that contrary to what we were lead to believe through dialogue by the Human crew members, the Engineer Pyramid on LV-223 was NOT victim to an outbreak of hazardous material. These are an ancient race of highly skilled and intelligent beings - the likelihood of one of them not handling their bio-former material with care is extremely unlikely. Also - their pressure suits mimic those of bio-hazard / hazmat suits we as Humans use today to shield ourselves from harmful chemicals. Thus, it's not a stretch to assume that the Engineer Pressure Suits would have acted as protection against the Black Goo - and all the Engineers in the hologram had these suits on.

Given the analysis above, it leaves us with a few probabilities. Either the Pyramid and the Engineer installations on LV-223 were the target of an organized attack by some unknown entity, or an Alien creature got loose on the planet, found its way to the Pyramid, broke its way in and made short work of the Engineers stationed there.

Side Note: Location, Location, Location!

LV-223 and LV-426 (setting for ALIEN and ALIENS) are part of the same system. The Space Jockey ship which crashed on LV-426 was very, very old and carried a cargo full of Xenomorph Eggs. Is it possible, that the Space Jockey represented a different race of Engineer, one that was opposed to the group on LV-223, or possibly even a radical from their own group, who attempted to stop the assault on Earth. There could have been an Engineer civil war due to the one faction's extremist view and will to end Humanity, which led the rebellious ones to unleash the Xenomorph - but at a cost. Perhaps Aliens were dropped onto the LV-223 installation to eradicate the Engineers before they launched their assault on Earth, but in the process, the cargo was unstable and got loose somehow - killing the radical Space Jockey in the process and crashing on LV-426 shortly after its "drive-by" of LV-223. Certainly a possible scenario.

Blatant audio clues to support an Alien attack

Another aspect of Prometheus many seemed to neglect when scrutinizing and analyzing its plot were the audio clues littered throughout.

At approximately 34:22 the crew of the Prometheus venture down a hallway, to which Milburn remarks that the water might be "martian piss", a faint screech can be heard. The screech mimics that of a Xenomorph all too well, when compared to the sound effects even used in Alien videogames. Look up that scene, turn the volume way up and listen to the faint screech and then play 2010's Aliens vs. Predator game as an Alien and click the "roar" button. Almost identical. Coincidence?

Roughly a minute later David activates the Hologram and a very familiar audio clip is played as the Hologram starts up. Echoing down the halls of the Pyramid is the call of the Deacon. If you wish to check it yourself, the roar kicks in at approximately 35:15, right before the Engineers begin running down the all.

Between the two audio clips, the Deacon roar is by far the more concrete one to use as an argument for this analysis. The roar only happens when David activates the Holographic recording, of which the Pyramid replays both audio and visual data. The Engineers are frantically running away from something, that much is clear. It can't be the Black Goo, because the Black Goo does not disperse like a gas bomb and as stated earlier, their suits would have shielded them from its contents anyways. Compare the audio played at 35:15 with the roar at the end of Prometheus and the two match up identically.

In Conclusion

It is clear that many of us were confused by a series of red herrings littered throughout Prometheus. Fans were quick to judge screenwriter Damon Lindelof for his "poor writing" and pacing of the story, but in actuality Lindelof did exactly what he was tasked to do - ask questions, leave hidden clues and set up for a sequel. It is extremely unlikely that all of the above acknowledgements were simple mistakes (especially the audio), I didn't need to read into the film too much to realize the obvious - all it took was another viewing where by I paid attention to the background instead of the obvious focal points.

To summarize everything discussed, it is clear that the fate of the Engineers on LV-223 were not what Shaw and Janek assumed it to be. They were observers with limited understanding of what the installation was - as Humans often do, they jumped to conclusions and assumed an outcome based on their very limited understanding. In actuality, there is a much larger backstory at play here, one that seemingly insinuates an internal conflict within the Engineer society.

What we can't deny: The Pyramid was ravaged and broken into by something. From there, something let out a terrible roar before chasing down and murdering all but one of the Engineers in that facility. Something left a residue on the Hologram control panel and something piled up those bodies against that door Fifield and Milburn discovered.

Speculative Outcome:

Given the above and the fact that an Engineer was left alive on LV-223, I am willing to bet that (like in Jon Spaihts' original Alien: Engineers script) there was an Engineer vs. Alien conflict following the initial attack. The Engineer, who David wakes up in Prometheus was the only one to survive the ordeal and who likely killed the Alien (or Deacon)- or at least trapped it in the room, behind the pile of dead Engineer bodies. Why he didn't flee in the Juggernaut ship is unknown, but could be due to the fact that he was infected by the Alien prior to his victory - leaving a festering spore inside of him. The spore was then accelerated and mutated when impregnated by the Trilobite at the end of the film. By entering into Cryo-sleep (as David suggests to Shaw earlier on after discovering her "abnormal fetus") he would have slowed its growth and extended his life until more of his comrades showed up to assist him. Obviously, they never did and when he was awoken 2,000 years later he realized his people may very well have been wiped out - thus sparking his rage and immediate action to launch his assault on Earth.

Of course that last bit was my own personal opinion based on the facts presented, but it certainly makes more sense than the "outbreak" scenario we were suggested in the film.

What do you think? Do the above points change your outlook on this very important scene in Prometheus? If accurate, how do you think this Engineer Civil war may be explored in Alien: Covenant? Let me know your thoughts in the comments section below and feel free to suggest anything I may have missed.

If you're a fan of Alien / Prometheus and are looking forward to Alien: Covenant, be sure to join in our Alien: Covenant forum! Ranked the #1 Prometheus forum back in 2012 and hosting a community of over 31,192 members, it's a great place to discuss the upcoming Prometheus sequels, dissect details from every trailer and engage with like-minded fans.

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Replies

Brendalien Jan-08-2017 8:57 PM

0

Well I believed that there was a civil war of sorts with the engineers or perhaps a war with another intelligent species. During the attack on the station the black goo was accidently released causing a xenomorph outbreak where only one engineer survived.

S.MJan-08-2017 8:59 PM

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"What we can't deny: The Pyramid was ravaged and broken into by something."

We can deny that.  It's speculation like the rest of your piece, which is otherwise pretty interesting.

 

(Except that I'll still accuse Lindelof of poor writing.)

ChrisJan-08-2017 9:13 PM

691

The Pyramid doors being broken and debris littering the crew's path is really, the only concrete (pardon the pun) evidence we can't deny, though. lol

And thank you!

Hive GrownJan-08-2017 9:51 PM

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If I remember correctly either Ridley or Lindelof said that the answer to a lot of the questions in Prometheus are answered in the film, just not in an obvious way. 

S.MJan-08-2017 9:59 PM

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"The Pyramid doors being broken and debris littering the crew's path is really, the only concrete (pardon the pun) evidence we can't deny, though."

I had a look at the scene you're talking about and really can't see anything that makes me go "that's definitely wreckage from the door."  There's a lot of debris on the slope leading from the surface down to the door as well (ie. on the outside, rather than the inside).

MuzzleNZJan-08-2017 10:01 PM

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Thanks Chris - this is a really interesting and considered article. I have to agree with most of what you've said, and think (regardless of the detail) that the overarching concept of what you've raised is correct.

One thing that does add a little complexity to your theory is what happened to the 're-animated' Engineer head in Prometheus. While the inference is that the head 'broke down' like the Engineer at the start of the film (due to exposure/ingestion of black goo), it may well have been the rapid decomposition of the head brought on by the electrode stimulation. Once again, perhaps the inference (and subsequent assumption by viewers) was a distraction - the head didn't explode due to black goo after all.

I think another interesting point is that viewers are led to believe that all the Engineers were running in to the room with the canisters, and that the last one, who clearly collapses (perhaps due to bodily injuries that are unseen due to no investigation of the body itself, just the head) is decapitated as the door shuts. If there was an outbreak of goo, why would they run in to a room with more goo? And, where did they go from there, given (again) the inference is that the door they entered through isn't reopened (as the head is preserved inside) for them to exit that way. How did they get out, and was it in fact those Engineers that were subsequently piled up in another location with their chests bursted outwards (as Fifield and Milburn note), or did those Engineers survive, and the ones F & M find are a different group. It could be that the hologram is actually showing the 'rogue' Engineers that attacked the installation (not the pile of subsequent dead ones), and that they were running back to their ship and escaped? This would of course also support the warring Engineer theory.

Hard to know - is it clever writing, leaving subtle crumbs for the discerning viewer to re-watch and discover, or is it sloppy? It could be a mixture of both, but we know from Lost that there were numerous 'interesting' parts that turned out to go nowhere and in some cases, be contradicted further down the track.

Great article though. Keep them coming!

Deep SpaceJan-08-2017 11:01 PM

19

Interesting!  The entrance to the facility always struck me as too fortunate - I always assumed it was a broken vent or something but never paid any more attention to it.  Could well be what you say ...

I was thinking of there was an attack here then going off what we have seen from pics of dead engineers on Paradise, maybe there was a whole galactic (or bigger!) attack on the engineers?

Something has befell the race, that much is clear, and the black goo and xenos seem to be heavily involved.

bregoJan-08-2017 11:20 PM

0

Very well put together Chris.

I have always suspected that after either a Black Goo Accident or Act of Sabotage a Deacon or Xeno did emerge. Perhaps the remaining Engineers managed to get it outside from where as you say it broke back in or perhaps it all happened in another Pyramid/Silo and all remaining Engineers put up their last stand within the one we saw in Prometheus.

I have always suspected that all but two Engineers met the death some 2000 years earlier on LV223. One managed to make it to a stasis pod (as we saw in Prometheus), but one managed to make it to another ship, launched and made his or hers way into space but realized too late that he was carrying a passenger. The passenger birthed causing him to ditch on LV426 becoming the Derelict and Space Jockey whom we all know and love.

My hopes and suspicion that the Derelict crash landed on top of (and partially caused the collapse ) a pyramid on LV426 which was populated by a team of Engineers, killed off by the matured Deacon/Xeno, which became a Queen and laid the Eggs which Cain found have been argued previously elsewhere.

 

Dr. Hans ZarkovJan-08-2017 11:20 PM

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Nice observation and study @Chris!

NigeJan-09-2017 12:33 AM

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Something bad ass enough to kick the doors in, something fastidious enough to remove all the Engineer remains, something strange and hardy enough to leave green "goo" with cells still viable after 2000 years, something confident enough not to worry about a rampaging Deacon on the loose...sounds a bit like a Predator to me.

AtiJan-09-2017 2:18 AM

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Xenowarrior1Jan-09-2017 2:55 AM

0

Very interesting piece .....I'm watching it all again now as reading this and a lot of it makes sense...good find

 

chliJan-09-2017 3:09 AM

1

The debris (stones) seen here and there could perhaps have been caused by a moonquake, which also disturbed the urns and let out the black goo? The goo then started the evolutionary cycle leading up to the engineers running down the corridors followed by something which also changed skin . . .

 

Also, three of the sarcophagi have holes from chestbursters (or something else). Why didn’t the fourth engineer drive away (for Earth) as was the intention seen in the hologram? If he’d been infected there would have been a fourth hole . . .

ali81Jan-09-2017 3:35 AM

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good piece. when reading ur theory on an attack I theorised it may have been another faction of the engineers who had come to stop theyr plan but the engineers in the hologram r most definitely afraid, which would lead me to think it was some form of xeno, perhaps multiple xenos but if that's the case, why was the decapitated engineers body left and not eaten? if it was another faction how did the manage to fit in the first place? one theory on that could be the structure the crew have to crouch under was placed there to cover up the facility but again why not just blow it up? the structure they crouch under is clearly on legs of some kind and the engineers probably have another entry point to the facility below

ali81Jan-09-2017 3:46 AM

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what if the engineers seen running in the hologram r not the ones occupying the facilty but r being experimented on and have managed to free themselves???they r running from theyr more sinister captives. or they r explorers of sorts and have been caught up in events similar to alien and have stumbled across something they wish they hadn't???if it had been a warring faction I don't see them leave the facilty standing and at least one engineer alive and well in stasis

Mawhill79Jan-09-2017 5:15 AM

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The fact that an engineer was left alive in stasis suggests to me that he was put in stasis before the situation that left the other engineers dead, and that the event that led to their deaths happened just before he was supposed to be sent to Earth. I don't think he was left on purpose. This makes the theory that they were attacked by an alien, possibly a Deacon, add up. If they were killed by killed by other engineers then one would not have been left in stasis, an alien attack makes much more sense to me in explaining why the one engineer was left alive, in stasis. If more light is not shed on this situation in upcoming sequels, I wonder if a prequel will one day explain?! 

ali81Jan-09-2017 5:43 AM

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yea I agree, I def think ridley will answer this question as its too big a talking point not to readdress. I think the way covenant is being set up it will be far too fast paced to take time out to revisit this situation at the facility but maybe the next one will delve deeper into the engineers and theyr civilization and then in a flashback scene revisit what happened to them. an alien attack is the most logical scenario as it seems everything was left the way it was after the attack but then who piled up the bodies???don't see an alien taking the time out to do that and if anything the chest burster would eat the corpse for nourishment. did another faction who was responsible for the alien attack come back some time later?again they wouldn't leave anyone alive of the facility standing to be used again

RickJan-09-2017 6:06 AM

16

Guys n Gals,

Here is something that was completely missed.  The hologram of the engineers running into the head room  and the one at the and tripped and fell then got up and ran just to get his head clipped by the door.  With this said

1. The tripped engineer was infected by the black goo prior to him entering the head room hence his head exploding in containment on the ship. Note he had his engineer mask on prior.  Also note his head was preserved by the room so he didn't get infect by the room or the vases after his head was removed.

2. What happened to the engineers that ran into the head room from the hologram?  I bet there is a secret door in that room.  They never found any other engineer bodies in the head room.

Rick

Dark NebulaJan-09-2017 6:25 AM

7

I suppose the engineers ran somewhere else (to the hypersleep chambers or to the ships?) or left the big head room when they thought it was safe to go idk.

While reading Lindelof's Paradise draft I came to this

If there was something chasing the engineers,I wonder how did that happen and did the black goo had something to do with it.

acakiJan-09-2017 6:34 AM

0

Sorry, but don't see resemblance to anything similar to the door or shattered door panels. Also there are three big openings - so you suggest that someone broke door panels on all openings? Why? They would only need one. Although, interesting theory.

RickJan-09-2017 6:36 AM

16

DN,

After thinking about the chase.  Maybe nothing was chasing "them".  Maybe they were trying to get away from the last engineer that was infected by the black goo.

Rick

chliJan-09-2017 6:39 AM

1

I would say that the low height of the entrance to the temple, to outer doors, the debris seen everywhere and the unpolished appearance of the structure is because it is in fact an old ruin. It has been partly buried under several metres of gravel and dust (they have to crouch to get in) and the elements have affected the building for about 2000 years without anyone tending it. Presumably there have also been moonquakes shaking and cracking it.

 

Later on they come to a hole in the ground (similar to the hole which Kane enters on LV-426). Here they find out that they can breathe the air. What is/was down there? Also, we know that the juggernaut is close by with the Jockey-chair . . .

Dark NebulaJan-09-2017 6:47 AM

7

Thats what I was thinking, one of them got infected by some accident and was trying to kill himself before he would become fully mutated.The rest of the engineers ran away from him because they knew what the black goo they made here was capable of doing,and we've seen it with the mutated Fifield (Imagine the mutated Engineer).

Also notice the black goo ponds and streams all over the corridors.

I suppose the big head room wasn't the only room with the black goo ampules.

 

Its AutoJan-09-2017 6:51 AM

0

I'm not sure if I am in the minority here (as I tend to join the 'Alien' movie convos more) but I really thought Prometheus told us everything we needed to know/it was explained in the movie? We see the hologram of the Engineers running (looking behind, so obviously being chased) trying to get through the next door before it seals... this suggested (to me) that during the outbreak there was a lockdown and the Engineers were frantically trying to get to their ships to escape (and/or) complete their mission.. (they obviously had no control of the doors on account of the decapitated engineer) we know it wasnt just 'black goo' contamination as we see the bodies of those that didnt make it huddled by doors, with holes in them that the prometheus crew comment that "something came out of them".. so i never once questioned that it was anything other than a deacon/xeno outbreak.. the fact we see a deacon mural and then see a deacon at the end of the movie kinda reinforced that. Other than holding our hands and literally showing us footage of it happening, they couldnt have made it any clearer? :-) as for the goo on the walls.. again (and sorry if this sounds condecending in any way, i dont mean it to come across as such!) but i feel they showed us clearly what it was.. biotechnology..when david handled the substance it emitted the same blue holographic 'fizz' as the recordings.. it is on the walls as much of their technology seems to be hologram based.. the goo emmits the holograms (think of the pilot chamber, no visable controls as such.. holographic touch and sound based technology) ....the one and only question the movie didnt answer (intentionally) was why the engineers seeded life on Earth, then decided to wipe us out (but that was the whole point of Shaw heading off to Paradise for her answers at the end) I honestly dont find Prometheus to be a confusing movie? :-) 

RickJan-09-2017 7:22 AM

16

DN,

I don't know if those streams are black goo.  When they entered the corridors from the hole in the floor if you noticed it was raining and there were streams of water running down into the hole which is probably what those streams are down in the tunnel.  Just a theory, I mean all that water has to go somewhere and I didn't see a any water treatment or drain off in the tunnels.  Which leads me to another question.  With all the technologies the engineers had there was no evidence water treatment, power source, mess hall, no real technology other than some wall panels, automatic doors, and the green crystal table in the head room.

Rick

Dark NebulaJan-09-2017 7:37 AM

7

Idk if it is water or the black goo,there was already a conversation about it between Ford,Milburn and Fifield:

FORD:Its -12 over here.

MILLBURN:Then why isn't water frozen?

FIFIELD: Maybe it ain't water.

MILLBURN: Maybe its martian piss.

FIFIELD:Thats your scientific theory,isn't it Mr.Biologist?

Also if you look closely in the deleted scene (that scene you mentioned) when Millburn spots and grabs little creature from what looks like some kind of a black substance to me.

 

dkJan-09-2017 7:38 AM

2

If there was a deacon in the area when the crew was in the pramid as suggested, would it not have attacked the Prometheus crew?

SpaceGhost71Jan-09-2017 8:08 AM

0

I know a lot of people focus on the Deacon as a particular species/Alien.  Have you ever considered the Deacon to be one of kind?  Think about this.  Holloway ingests goo, impregnates Shaw with corrupted sperm, Shaw gives birth to the Trilobite, Trilobite hugs an Engineer and boom you have the deacon.  I think there would be differences if the Trilobite hugged a human being or if a standard facehugger joined up with an Engineer. Although similar in design it would still have different characteristics.  Look at the Neomorph.......baby version is similar to a Xeno (sort of, not snake like but same DNA), yet vastly different. Also, the big pile of bodies in the facility with holes in their bio armor tells me the Engineers weren't fighting a standard Xeno.  Considering the strength of the Engineer and the fight he put up with the Trilobite they could have been facing something bigger and nastier than anything we've yet to see.  Just a thought ;)    

Deep SpaceJan-09-2017 10:09 AM

19

In reply to various posts above:

Something that struck me when rewatching Prom that relates to this is the fate of the Engineers that were 'busted' whilst in hypersleep.

I can't tell from the film but were their corpses still in the sleep chambers (that you can see are exploded)?

If not, where did they go?  And if so - where is whatever came out of them?  Unless they burst like the head that the Prom crew study on the ship?

 

ResurgenceJan-09-2017 10:41 AM

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when i was watching the movie i knew i was missing something but i didn't know what, this is what i was missing.

ResurgenceJan-09-2017 10:43 AM

0

the green rock is related i know it! i don't know how but i just know it is!

chliJan-09-2017 11:34 AM

1

There's the green goo on the panel where David starts the hologram, there is the green stone in front of the mural and there's the green orb raising the cockpit. The green substance might be some kind of power source?

ResurgenceJan-09-2017 11:53 AM

0

nige don't forget the strange laser triangle appearance

XenowarriorJan-09-2017 1:55 PM

0

The entrance of the temple you suggest where the part of the door is broken and the Engineer doesn't fit through it, I think that is not right at all. If you look better, the surrounding area of the entrance is burried in. The ground was supposed to be lower. Through the ages, the entrance was almost burried in by earth and rocks, like we also see with the Sphinx in Egypt at the time of discovery, when it was almost burried in with dessert sand. That door normally opened in a curve where the parts slides into each other, easy for a Engineer to enter. Maybe when they remove all the earth and rocks in front of the doorway, maybe that hole is bigger than we see in the movie and that something indeed bust in the temple.

S.MJan-09-2017 2:20 PM

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Yeah I always figured with the storms they get on that planet, that the dirt would build up over time.

BigDaveJan-09-2017 4:05 PM

212

Interesting post Chris.... i am sure you intended it to be about something new.. but then it has brought up a lot of old Topics and Debates.. so i will discus these as quick as i can so that the NEW GUYs who may have never seen the old Topics can get my Two Cents..

But first i would like to say... WOW... something i never paid attention to Chris... so its a nice find... i mean i noticed it before some parts at least but never gave it any detailed Analysis.

I am not sure i arrive at the same conclusions though as there is some evidence that seems to show us what happened in the OUTBREAK

But indeed, the Entrance they (Prometheus crew) enter in is not large... not a complete circle too....  yet it seems to have the same kind of look at pattern as many some Doors inside, well when i say doors i mean as far as to contain and shut off areas of the Outpost. Much like the Doors Dallas opens and shuts in the scene where he gets caught by the Alien.

The Concept Art has these doorways too..  and the circular ones and also the arch shaped ones are very Large, even Larger compared to our LV-223 Engineers.

So yes it could look like the place was broken into Chris, its a possibility...  and so maybe we cant rule out that the LV-223 Engineers had invaded and taken over what ever this place was THOUSANDS of years ago.   Then turned this place into their own Research Outpost...

I think this could fit.... so that the LV-223 Engineers overtook this place some many thousands of years ago, but prior it belonged to another Race, or related Race/Faction.

This could fit with the Star Map Invitations, well what Shaw assumed they were..... the oldest being 35'000 years old... why would the Engineers leave a Map to a place from 35'000 years ago.. if no such place had existed then... and i cant buy that they left clues to a place they intended to build.

The Place could Support Human Life....  The Engineers did not need their Space Jockey Suits to survive on LV-223 Surface at least for a certain period of time....  (shots from unused Scenes prove this).

So indeed Chris that theory could be in Part Correct... its nice to have something we overlooked to add to a whole new way to look at the Outpost.....

I would say the Attack did not lead to the Outbreak though, but who knows... if i was to take your New Theory and apply what i look into it as.... then i think having this Place Once belong to another Faction.. that had a different Agenda seems to fit...

Before the Rogue Faction attacked and overran the Place.

This fits into my preferred theory that this place was at once a Green House/Nursery where the Watchers/Gardeners would experiment on various lifeforms and upgrade/evolve them in this place as a testing facility... and when they are happy with the results... they then seed them to Earth and other Worlds.

BigDaveJan-09-2017 4:12 PM

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Another way of looking at it.. that i was thinking was what if it could be the result of some WMD used on the Place... maybe this World was not as Barron many many years prior?

Its got Nuked... well similar... then the Rogue Engineers went in afterwards...

As the Temple looks like its been covered in sediment, as it appears maybe the Entrance the Prometheus crew took was Larger... i.e the area height before they get to the broken entrance... and as i was touching in in previous post.... this circular entrance looks partially buried.

But as SM stated... it could be a natural build up over Thousands of Years, the Temples did have structures well a Wall around it to protect from Sandstorms... and maybe they would then clean up any that got behind these barriers..

But having died off 2000 years ago, there was no maintenance on this... and so it would be like living in the Antartic in a House with a drive and the owners passed away... with no one to clear the driveway of snow.. over years it would get snowed in...

But how would this explain the interior that looked like more broken Doors?

chli had answered this this..

"The debris (stones) seen here and there could perhaps have been caused by a moonquake, which also disturbe"

Very Possible explanation too... and also the bit that such a event could lead to a Outbreak... we only need to look at Fukishima.

I will cover the reasons for potential Outbreak, reasons for why there was maybe no Deacon? Or maybe there was and the Engineer Bodies.. but i have covered them before..

But i will recap again latter

WrenchpedeJan-09-2017 6:08 PM

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In the behind the scenes from that fancy bluray, when they get to Fifield's mutation, someone points out that his head was made to look like it was going to explode similar to that of the Engineer.

This may be why they went in this direction instead of using the more alien-like design: To give a clue that the decapitated Engineer was infected with the black goo.

Still, the Deacond noise can't be ignored.

BigDaveJan-09-2017 6:13 PM

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Onto the Engineer Bodies... we have to remember these were most likely worked on before the Lindeloff drafts as some production had started.. as far as Propwork...

Spaights draft had showed us a few things..

1) Engineers were trying to run to the Chasm and throw themselves down it (commit Suicide).

2) Its intended that some of the Dead Engineers are Chest Busted and others have wounds caused by a attack from these Chest Busted Aliens.

So the Deacon theory could work... here is some flaws to it though.

1) The Hologram did not pick up what was chasing them, but picked up the Sound the Deacon chasing them made?  Then we have to wander is it a case of the Hologram stopped at this point? or we never saw the area the Deacon was captured.

2) The movie had hints of a Outbreak like Ebola.. referenced by Shaw and then Janeks comments are to lead us to conclude as such... which is where the Head comes in... 

This head explodes when brought back to life, Shaw saw its cells changing... hints at a Black Goo infection.

3) The Body however looked hollow... so did the Engineer Bodies (maybe a oversight)... 

But this brings me to the theory... as i mentioned before, if these Engineers are infected.. and they are in the process of changing to a point like the Sacrificial Engineer, this process was a Violent Reaction...  a Chemical Reaction... Genetic Material being violently broken down..

The Sacrificial Engineer, this reaction was not contained within a pressured suit (container) if you say add a Minto to a Coke Bottle it causes a Violent Reaction due to the build up of CO2 and this Gas build up will force the Liquid out of the Bottle at the weakest point... 

I assume the Engineers suffered similar to the Sacrificial Engineer but the  reaction and broken down material had no where to go due to being contained within the Space Jockey Suits... that eventually it would explode out of the suit.. in random places.

This...

*Fits with the Head infection

*Shaws theory on what is going on

*Clues to how the Goo worked.

*Explain the Hollow Engineer Suits.

*Give reason for why they wanted to get into the Big Head Room.

Because i feel the environment within it could contain and stop the Goo from doing what it does.. which is why the Urns have stayed there for thousands of years.... The Atmosphere was infected by the Crew entering with maybe no Helmets.

The Ampoule/Big Head Room preserved the Head... yet the body on the other side was not preserved... and not even any bones remained.. which means the Engineers Genetic Material was broken down.

Why would the  Engineers run into that Room?   Maybe once a infection starts they had a antidote that must be administered within a short space of time...

Otherwise it makes no sense to run into that room, what are they to do.. remain in the room forever... would it only slow down the inevitable?

BigDaveJan-09-2017 6:17 PM

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The Chest Busted Cryo-Engineers...

Again could have been a Prop worked on for Spaights draft (indeed it was) that Lindeloff had to add to his story...  and i think it may have been left in as a Clue...

Something had Chest Busted from those Engineers... thats for sure...  under the Cryo-Pods there are prop Engineers with Chest Buster Holes the size of a Deacons...

However the Hole in the Cryo-Pods are smaller.. typical Alien Chest Buster sized...

Spaights draft explains his version of this scene... the Engineer was infected (Xeno type Embryo) he rushed into Cryo-sleep to put a stop to the infection.....

As when he is awoken he was angry at the Human Crew and told them that they had now condemned him to death... (Chest Buster)

This would explain his 3 comrades Chest Busted Bodies... they must not have got into the Cryo-Sleep Pods soon enough...

Michelle JohnstonJan-09-2017 10:48 PM

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As this is a Prometheus topic with no spoilers I will contribute. 

@ Chris I love your passion and I have noted a theme runs through your ideas where you look to place the Engineers in a Geo Political structure involving other antagonistic races. This for me is AVP territory. 

@ Its auto Your post acts as a proxy for my view.

During the experiments the Engineers were carrying out, which involved sacrifice, a strain emerged (possibly as a punishment) which corrupts the original intention of the catalyser and creates a myriad of Zeno related outcomes all of which share common outcomes principally unsympathetic highly sexualised, super fast sub creation which pursue punishment in a highly unsympathetic way. Creation without a moral purpose. I recently read some further material by John and Damon where this notion of placing the creature in a creation context is/was precisely the intention. 

What you did made me think about for the first time was the Engineers do not merely record "the scene of the crime" but actually employ holographic technology as a way of archiving their knowledge. The orrery is so mesmerising at an artistic level one forgets this is part of the Engineers library of knowledge and the material on Davids hand may have given David the key to unlock the door. Something a Deacon would not necessarily appreciate or comprehend. What happened to the pilots who entered the room their controlled burial rites maybe beyond our comprehension or they may have been the eventual crew of the Juggernaut or their story for us comes to an end. In terms of the story being told to us they fell out of it.  

@BD Whilst the evolving scripts play in your mind and indeed may have generated some of the final props in the movie we I know share the same broad view. What is hidden from us, and its the kind of thing that I have no need to be spoon fed, but others do is there is no evidence of the technology that makes the ceremonial head room a stable environment for the mutagen. Clearly the Engineers were not entirely stupid but in setting up an homage to either their Einstein or the sacrificial Engineer that perfected the Deacon life cycle they must have created a secure environment. For them to come to LV 223 from Paradise to experiment they knew they were taking risks, thats why they came, and it was effectively a laboratory. The protocol for achieving that is simply hidden unless there is a story about sanctification which has yet to be told.

As to what caused the carnage some of it may have been airborne which has degraded, like a plague over 2000 years  (David knew that it was not airborne now but he also may have deduced it could have been in the past), some of it would be physical outcomes of their experiments. They clearly sub created and those outcomes ran amok. The pile of Engineers is not dissimilar to what happens when a group of humans are caught in a confined space by fire desperate to get out people climb over each other, equally it could be ritualistic and I suspect Covenant will show another example and clarify what precisely it is about.  

The coming of mankind "set off" both the mutagen and in the wrong hands a further life cycle. The surviving  Engineer in his cryo-pod like the de captivated head were in an environment where the zeno strain was ineffective and unlike his co pilots and the body of the Engineer in the right place at the right time.        

General 

As to the notion of the pyramid being a ruin with blocked entrances and fallen debris given it had been moribund for 2,000 years based on my visits to contemporaneous ruins I am sure I sublimely accepted that notion without question and for me it only adds authority to Ridleys dressing of the film.

For me what is much more interesting is to understand the relationship between the Acolyte, LV223 and Paradise and I am entirely certain David knows and has been building toward that since Sir Peter offered his conjectures. How much he will reveal to Daniels will be fascinating but probably only to tempt her or like Ash to be the candid friend. Equally he may play his cards close to his chest or is that Walters.      

chliJan-10-2017 5:32 AM

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Like you Michelle Johnston, I see no reason to bring in an outside party (although Chris idea is interesting and possible). I stick with the idea of an old pyamidlike building, deserted for about 2000 years, affected by the elements. The experiments/rituals went wrong for some reason and the security systems went on, closing the doors and switching on the high-tech (holographic) security cameras. But one wonders:

What happened to the engineers? Did all of them die (except the one in cryostasis)? We know there were other juggernauts since David and Shaw left in one, so there were probably other facilities on LV-223. Did the xenomorphs (deacons?) wipe out the entire moon (and then they died too somewhere)? One Juggernaut might have escaped but found its fate on LV-426.

But what about the engineers on “Paradise”? Are they wiped out too? None seems to have returned to LV-223 to see what happened? Infinite quarantine?

So, are the engineers extinct (as a foreboding of what can happen to the human race as well)?

Michelle JohnstonJan-10-2017 6:36 AM

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@Chli

What was in the mind of the creators of Prometheus in 2012 for the follow up can be pieced together. It was an inverted Paradise alive with Engineers who were "Aggressive ....ers" according to Ridley. The Space Jockey was a brother whose story took place within a couple of hundred years of the LV 223 break out. To make the lack of connection between Paradise and LV 223 plausible the most obvious route was it was quarantined. It had nothing more to offer Shaw (and David) and it was left mothballed.

For many months we have known Paradise is a beautifully (terraformed) planet which has suffered a "disaster". Retribution for their fall was my 80% probability with a 20% probability of David, as in the original ideas, bringing hell to a machine. My hunch is a growing sense that David is responsible for their undoing. They are merely a "superior species" who were granted Paradise which was seeded and terrafomed for them. I do not believe the scene/dream with David and Weyland looking on the flight path of the tear drop ship is merely coincidence. 

They (all Engineers as one species ) over reached themselves and unlocked terrible forces which have come to their world and offered up the kind of retribution on them that they were going to mete out on Mankind. If this is correct it offers a fascinating insight into the growth of AI and how it can pursue an action believing it to be right in the ordered world however wrong it may seem in absolute terms. Put simply David has become an Engineer in his mind and is playing by their rules. To him he is merely doing what they were going to do to his masters why not ?.

So to return to the geo political argument and your question I do not think Ridley wants to clutter the landscape with multiple species and certainly not a battle of monsters but will keep it stark and direct. Creator/Engineers/Mankind/A I. The Engineers are alive in David and he will narrate what happened. In order to create (play God) first you need to destroy (the engineers). He is judge jury and executioner.

If there are more films the momentum lies in the future and thats where we will be carried, assuming the plague wiped out all the Engineers which is certainly the most elegant narrative if David and his Juggernaut comes amongst them with destruction. One of the Covenants that may have been broken is for David to bring back the mutagen and its deadly message to Paradise. The Engineers may have made a Covenant with their creators  Paradise was granted to them on the basis that it should remain unblemished and free of sin a Garden of Eden but a garden which was ripe for corruption at every level. That Covenant has been broken and out of it comes punishment, retribution and the serpent. 

On reflection at a film making level for David to come upon another fallen world with things having gone to pot for me now feels repetitive whereas for David to be inside the story and making it happen and be confronted by his upgrade having pursued his own curiosity is more direct more immediate and more terrifying as well as a fresh angle. 

 

chliJan-10-2017 11:37 AM

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Thank you, Michelle Johnston.

So after the outbreak, LV-223 is quarantined. 2000 years later, Peter Weyland & Co comes barging in and the whole process starts all over again. I like the religious overtones. When David opens the sealed door (“Oops!), it’s like you break the seal of a pharaoh's tomb and the curse is begun. As they enter the room, the ampules start “sweating” and the mural changes. Even outside, the weather changes and a sand storm is on the way.

“Covenant” is of course biblical. If you break the bond you are punished. At the altar an engineer can sacrifice himself, mutate and give birth to the retributor (eradication of the fallen mankind)? This biological weapon (alien) can also be seen as “the serpant” (the devil, 666) which will eradicate mankind and then there is a new fresh rebirth.

However, the engineers have also fallen from grace? Who created them and gave them paradise? How did Paradise become lost? Did they, later on, start their biological experiments there too (LV-223 being quarantined)?

When David and Shaw crashes on “Paradise”, the engineers are either already gone (extinct because they started tampering with biology there too) or, as you suggest, David has somehow brought the mutagen with him (how?)? Either way, their covenant (with whom?) is broken but in the latter case, David becomes the new engineer (God/creator) and their nemesis?

So, once again we have a dysfunctional (fallen) android (like Ash) and there will be a good one, Walter, that confronts him (like Bishop)? Interesting.

But what about the time issue with the space jockey landing on LV-426 with the silo now full of eggs (not ampules)?

BigDaveJan-10-2017 3:29 PM

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Indeed Chli... and as Michelle touched upon...

These are interesting things and its a case of

*Are we going to delve into them in this movie?

*And have they changed the original idea and concept for these questions and background?

Its still pretty open for debate at the moment...  the Disaster Scene has to be either.....

*a Scene of Ancient Punishment set thousands of years prior...

* the result of David and the Cargo he is bringing with him.

A Flash Back Scene which is then interpretded by David and passed on, could open up some of those reasons  for what has happened to such a Race, Why we was created, what happened to them and how come LV-223 was the result and its purpose.

If however David unleashes Hell on those Engineers is a massive Cop Out and taking the Lazy and Easy route... unless David can gather information to justify his actions and has information that he has gained to be able to give Shaw some of her answers and the viewers.... 

To have David unleash hell, with no answers or reasons.. just because he could.. i feel would be disappointing...

We cant be sure where they are going with it now... i think its teasing at a more simple route and David is behind it all and what leads to Alien... but i think this is done as a Red Herring.. at least i hope so....

Because as Ridley said about the Space Jockey event being within a few hundred years of the LV-223 Outbreak and also the Derelict did not get far..... all seems to connect LV-223 and LV-426 and the Xeno and Outbreak.

The interesting thing with a vague comment by Ridley Scott, is the few hundred year Gap does allow for some interesting possibilities.

Where we could get TWO outcomes depending on if this event is  around 200 years prior to the LV-223 Outbreak... or 200 years after...

i have covered it before, but i think clues i have from the movie when i then take Ridleys comments on board is the event is 200 years after....  It will be a event that could explain what happened to the other Cyro-Pod Dead Engineers and Space Jockey and how it never effected the Last Engineer.

But we cant be sure if they are still following the status quo...

Which is the Xenomorph is something (1) that was either the reasons for those experiments or a result from (2) those experiments and our Space Jockey has been there fro 1800-2200 years.....  Two potential time zones... 200 years prior or after give or take and most likely TWO different scenario to fit.

I think Ridleys last well one of his last comments on the subject he mentioned something in his Cargo Hold Evolved.. This points me to one result...  set 200 years after... but then it cant rule out the first option.

But maybe AC is scraping these kinds of scenario with something else.... but i think its a Red Herring and David will show us how it can be RE-CREATED and not how it was created.

BigDaveJan-10-2017 3:37 PM

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As far as the Engineers i think as they backed themselves into a Corner....  a way to get out without doing as much damage to the Plot they was going for... and what links with the potential for them stealing the Technology...

IS... as i covered in more detail recently.

Paradise Engineers are just a earlier version of Mankind, created for some purpose we dont know.. maybe its Benevolent maybe its companionship, or greater cause or maybe Sinister.

Those who created these beings on Paradise.. visited them now and again taught them stuff but kept them pretty much at a Technological Level as Mankind was when we was visited by them or those on Paradise.

They may come back and take some in Ritual Sacrifices to be used as a Sacrifice for some Purpose..

either a Faction of those beings on Paradise.. or a Faction of the beings above them (Hierarchy) decided to go against this plan..  and they either

*Wanted to be as Gods/Creators themselves and got Punished.

*or rescued a few of those beings to start a Life New... where they would then be treated different, but still subjugated.

Our creation and purpose is the same as those beings on Paradise....

We are either....

*created because of the rebellion of the beings on Paradise

*created by a faction on Paradise who were kicked out of Paradise and so decide to sub-create themselves.

*a faction of the Hierarchy who created those on Paradise... then got kicked out and proceeded to do one or both of the above.

I think this was the back ground to it all... but it was getting more complex... and so going for the above in a more simple way could be the way to go..

ali81Jan-10-2017 3:42 PM

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why would the engineers require a door anyway?the fact that the inside has a different atmosphere tells me theyv terraformed the inside of the facility to make it breathable but theyv not bothered with the rest of the planet, why?because they had no intention on venturing outside. this is a facility which probably manufactures aswell as stores weapons of mass destruction so theyr not on a sight seeing mission. plus they don't require doors to the outside as they arrive in theyr ships and they have huge doors to the landing bays. also...

the last engineer looks behind him which says he is def running from something like the rest of them. they may all be infected but again as someone else asked, where did they go? when the crew of Prometheus leave the room they leave through the same door so there must not have been any other instantly visible ways in or out. though if u think about it, the facility is huge and given the length of time the crew actually spent in it, its safe to assume they only explored a tiny fraction of it so anything is possible I guess

 

Tiago_miami_laJan-10-2017 6:24 PM

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Exelent post chris. 

Myself saw prometheus sometime ago very close on details.

Its quite a easy movie to understand..ofc we didnt have all the answer for so many huge questions because they will reveal it in a sequel

I am a strong believer the derelict in lv426 came from lv223 and that lv 223 is the source of all military weaponised shenanigans engineers have to seed and destroy.

The sequel will be about lv 223 and how it connects to alien.

Its rather obvious we saw just a tiny portion of what lv 223 gathers...i can easly see a pyramid with black goo..another with eggs....another with other type of stuff. Its too obvious lv 223 gonna make a return to give explanations.

 

Its also obvious the hologram they running from something that roars like a deacon and the green goo reinforces that a creature was hunting them...possibly the creature they were making the black goo from got loose..and its a creature that has its own way to impregnate ..infect..kill etc..wasnt a simple outbreak..our gods arent that dumb.

Ladies and gents...after covenant we have to return to the place where it all begun..and i mean all wich is lv223..or as the final movie that connects to alien..theres no doubt in my mind all of this wil be answered.

Michelle JohnstonJan-11-2017 7:36 AM

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@Chli

Your welcome and the good thing about this particular forum, and this is really BD's influence, is no one is being called out as an idiot including Ridley and Damon. If you listen to Damon's commentary he knew exactly what he is was doing, people do not have to like it, many do not, but I think to start the sequence with a good deal  of unresolved motifs like a prologue which are then resolved makes sense to me. 

Ridley was asked in the context of 2012 where the derelict jockey and eggs fit in and BD and I have repeatedly reminded everybody that Ridley said he was a brother Engineer who got into trouble set his cargo down having realised what was happening and set off a beacon, within a few hundred years of the LV 223 incident. It doesn't actually matter except the Eggs/Vials what comes first question and this preoccupation with Dallas's remarks and the Zeno is in some peoples mind preferably ancient.

I actually continued this post with an argument which said the Jockey came from Paradise before David, to use AVP language, nuked them. However it doesn't work for two reasons :-

1) If they had 2,000 years to get their act together to weaponise the mutagen why send out one juggernaut and leave it at that. It makes Paradise seem like a lame version of LV 223 which had five hangers and thousands of Vials and many juggernaut bombers. 

2) In dramatic terms its merely repeating Prometheus. Engineers go to pot, all hell breaks lose and David's curiosity gets to pick over the bones. 

Once I have thought about that and know that Paradise has headrooms and self worship then I come back to the scene with David and Weyland and the Elda Edda and Valhalla echoes and Loge.

The Engineers thought we had gone off the rails and as our creators decided we should be rescinded, the irony of that is they suffered the same traits self worship greed and pushed against their mortality and sought a release from bondage. I believe it is out of that the disaster emerges David (Loge) comes to understand that. "Loge, who knows that the end of the gods is coming, does not follow the others into Valhalla; he tells the audience that he is tempted to destroy the gods and all they have deceitfully acquired". In this instance David makes the call.

David on his journey to Paradise is transformed into Ridley's big idea and determines the Engineers should be vanquished. Imagine sat in the movie having bonded with the Covenant idea and that part of its complement that has been woken. They do there stuff realise that the world they have come into is not Paradise at all and that something is wrong and with the potential for mistaken identity and Walter keen to regularise David this David who is all powerful. When Daniels finally realises, she is out of there, but its to late the beasts on board.

If Fassbender can communicate alone what he has become and what he is capable of and tell the Engineers story through him then I think we have one hell of a movie rather than repeat the Prometheus gig (something went wrong, bad stuff is here, David has been playing with his curiosity its just he is alone for ten years). Make David really changed and really powerful rather than the curious passive aggressive robot. 

As an aside I often see this in fan discussions deep fans want strict chronological time frames adhered to (fix with time travel) whereas immediacy creates real drama and thats the issue they face with the Jockey. Either they discover evidence of its place in history almost as an aside or it becomes real time involving a really important character in the Jockey station. They did the history of the zenomorph trope in AVP and it had zero emotional connection what I call "Monster Wars". One imaginary beast fighting with another imaginary beast doth not a great engaging drama make. its the relationship between us and our fears that made A L I E N great not watching him slug it out with another monster.       

ApacheizmJan-11-2017 11:16 AM

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Chris First, I want to say that I really like what you said in this piece, It is very interesting and nicely written. You said a few things that didn't take me 100 times (No disrespect) to watch the movie to notice and point out, and one was the goo on the hologram, my eyes opened wide when I first saw that.

You know I love the movie Alien from the first time I saw it but it has gone way south since Part 3. Lets be real, its kind of sad that one has to watch a movie a 100 times to notice certain things/clues to a plot/movie. I agree with a couple of the other posters that the writer wasn't very good. I believe they outta hire a few of you guys in this forum who are, and have one heck of an imagination and are great story tellers too re-write the Alien series and lets do it over.

I have a feeling that Prt 5 will get back on track tho I read he has had to wait for this movie to be finished so that he can get his story down pack.. Kind of sad rite, that they are all over the place on the stories..

I'll say it again, and again, too me the Space Jockey/Engineer's are everything that is ALIEN.

chliJan-11-2017 11:49 AM

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Michelle Johnston and BigDave

 

David is the protagonist?

Perhaps David and Shaw don’t come to the homeland of the engineers (“Paradise”), but come to a completely different planet, which was seeded by a sacrificial engineer long ago, and has developed in a completely different direction (beautiful but with strange spores . . .). The engineers have never lived there but live in a galaxy far, far away . . .

Shaw will probably never meet her makers (again) because she is already dead when they get there? How could she possibly survive with David having to pilot the ship and herself in cryosleep? David might have brought the mutagen somehow and experiments on her on the way to “Paradise”? That is if we want to believe that David is evil (a fallen angel) . . .

But if you listen to the title song by Aurora it’s about a lonely boy who travels very far. Little and shy, seeking love. It’s about David, isn’t it? David seeks the answers about himself (Artificial intelligence but also conscious and sensitive) and his place in the universe (just as Shaw did)? I particularly remember how rude Holloway constantly was towards David (since he was just a robot).

Anak The MightyJan-11-2017 1:45 PM

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IMO it's very possible that Lindeloff left breadcrumbs in Prometheus which pointed to the Predators involvement: Implosions, green goo(blood), et al, seem to point to the Predators. Coupled with the fact that the Prometheus TED talks made reference to Tyrell Corps (Blade Runner). It is very possible that there has been a continued attempt at tying in all 3 of the universes/franchises.

Just a thought...I'm probably wrong though.

S.MJan-11-2017 2:42 PM

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There was a vague reference to Tyrell on the blu-ray, which was revealed to be a joke for fans. I don't believe there were any references to Blade Runner in the TED Talk.

Not sure what you mean in regards to the Predators though.

BigDaveJan-11-2017 2:55 PM

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@ali81

Indeed they can get access via the Hangers... but i think they would still need a Door for back up purposes.... as far as the Environment, well a removed scene that did not even make it to the DVD extras clearly showed the Engineers can for at least a certain amount of time.. Survive outside on LV-223 and we know the Xenomorph can survive in atmospheres that have no Oxygen.

So i think the place was Terra-formed to support Human Life for some purpose.

Yes what happened to those who ran through that Door is a big Question, Prometheus opened up many many questions...  i will have to have a look but i am sure the Big Head Ampoule Room had 2-3 entrances, One the crew entered the other where those bodies are found piled up and there was another on the Map....

Here is one thing we cant be sure of...

If the Last Engineer had been in Cryo-sleep.. before, after or around the time of that Outbreak...  when those Engineers were running we dont know what or where those Engineers in the other Hologram on the Juggernaught were doing.

We can only assume they was going to Earth, before things went bad.... these guys could have been setting off for Earth prior to the Outbreak.

They could also had been the Engineers who made it inside the Big Head Room... then waited it out... and then proceeded to go onto their Warships to carry out there mission.

We dont know if every ship was off to Earth... they could have been trying to strike multiple Targets...

Spaights draft offers more clues.. but its if we consider it Canon as to its Hollogram scene being retold in Prometheus.. as in Spaights Draft...

They are all calm when David sees them, then he fast forwards though the recording in what could have been hundreds of years and we see One Engineer Panicked rushing to his Cryo-sleep Pod.

BigDaveJan-11-2017 3:06 PM

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@Tiago_miami_la

The simplist answer i can give to cover your last post, and what has happened.. (and i agree in part with you).  Is.

*These Engineers created the Black Goo from something, they know what this stuff can do...

*They know the threat of a accidental outbreak and how deadly the experiments are and this is why they used LV-223 and not to conduct experiments and store the Bio Weapons on their Home world.

*They knew any outbreak could spell Havoc on that place, due to knowing the potential creations that could come and how these creations would then procreate or carry on.

*Some how there was a Outbreak, a infection, and they attempted to Quarantine it in the Big Head Room. Maybe in this area they knew the Parasitic Bio-Weapon would be slowed down during its early stages and they could treat the infected.

*Or had means of committing Suicide in a safe way before the Goo could take full effect... basically doing to themselves what Vickers did to Holloway (this fits with Spaights plot).

*Other Engineers was either in their Ships and when the Outpost was on Lockdown.. had to remain there for a period of time.. or they chose to shut down the Ships and enter there.

*Thinking that once a Outbreak is contained.. its damage limitation... and to try and lock themselves away from the Outbreak... while the others attempted to reach Safe Haven and proceed with a way to clear up there infection or Sacrifice themselves to prevent it.

*Unknown to the Panicking Engineers, a Life Form had been infected too (Worms) and these had got to one of the Ships or more, and this leads to the Chest Busters and maybe Eggs.

BigDaveJan-11-2017 3:19 PM

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"Not sure what you mean in regards to the Predators though."

SM i think i know what they mean...  we get the Predator 3 light targeting system.. is this a Easter Egg tease... like the Tyrell Message Easter Egg (they could loosely link those universes still though).  or just a light reflection... which i think it is.

2nd Predator clue is the Writing on the Urns is different to the other Engineer Writings... the Urns have a look of some Predator writing on it..  But a Hard Core Predator fan could maybe see if this is the case...

Again i dont think its to indicate Predators at all.... but  if FOX think Predators vs Engineers will make $$$$$ we cant rule it out...

I think the Urns writing is vague attempt to offer them a back-door should they go the route the Engineers Stole something.

S.MJan-11-2017 3:26 PM

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"i will have to have a look but i am sure the Big Head Ampoule Room had 2-3 entrances"

I'm not sure it does.  There'a couple of wide shots that don't reveal any other entrances.

BigDaveJan-11-2017 3:33 PM

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@Michelle

On the money again ;) fully agree

@Chli

Indeed once Shaw is in Cryo-sleep and we have to assume she has to... unless the Ship maintains its Oxygen in Space and the distance to Paradise is not far..  And looking at the Covenant being able to get there in what has to be a 5 year Tops journey for them... in Terms of Engineers who have other Galaxies in their Navigation Systems.... then LV-223 to Paradise could be a Stone Throw... such as Earth also a Stone throw.

But if David has this Agenda of his own... he would want to persuade Shaw to get into Cryo-sleep, so that he has more freedom to do whatever he wants.

And so yes David could have gone anywhere after leaving LV-223.. he could have gone to LV-426 checked it out, then gone to Paradise.

Maybe Paradise is not Paradise...

But we have to remember Prometheus tried to show us

*The Engineers created us and came back to upgrade/evolve and teach us stuff and have us worship them as Gods.

*The Engineers came from a Place we would call Paradise, which i wont get into deep debate on here.

But Ridley Scott had teased us that they never wanted to meet God in the first movie... so the Engineers are not GOD he has teased a Fallen Angel and also Paradise Lost connections..  So this brings me to this. 

*Shaw finds out about the Engineers, but she still asks who made them....

*She wants to go to Paradise to find out why we was created, and then to be destroyed.

*The Engineers came from Paradise... but they are merely a creation of some other Race or Power.

*If these beings (Engineers) are now all but gone, and those who created them.. maybe have no knowledge of our creation or they did but thought or maybe ordered our destruction and then punishment to those Engineers on Paradise too.

*There would be nothing really where Shaw could get her answers from... Only what David can interpret from what ever resources are left on Paradise.

We have to remember David can understand Engineer Writing and Language... he is bound to know roughly what the Big Head Room Door and other Writings mean...  and markings on the Big Head.

David is advanced and no doubt has a Photographic Memory, he would only need to look at something once and he can memorize it forever..

David would maybe had been able to hear the Engineers talking in the Juggernaught Play Back... we have to assume David is so advanced he can listen to two different conversations in a room or perform a task and still listen to someone talking.

So there is a great deal of knowledge he could have gained at the end of Prometheus and if the Juggernaught also has play back device.. that they took off in.. he could play back these to get better understanding.

If he then arrives at Paradise.. and realizes there are no answers for Shaw as they are all dead...  Then David may already have those answers.. to some part.

And what little he does not have.. he knows he can not get for Shaw... and so now David basically is free to do what ever he wants.

 

 

 

 

 

BigDaveJan-11-2017 3:45 PM

212

This is a schematic of the Map... with the actual Prometheus Probe Map.... and Fifield and Milburn are outside or near the Big Head Room.

I did a topic on this a while ago... where i had a shot where they was on that Map when they found the bodies.. and they was outside the same room, that a earlier shot had when the rest of the crew entered the Big Head Room and it appeared Fifield and Milburn was thus outside the same Room but at a different point (Piled up Engineer Bodys) we had that Mural which when looking at Prop work is another Door...

Then looking at the Schematic Map which was work done by Production Art Department and Concept.... it seems there could be a 4th entrance too.

S.MJan-11-2017 4:12 PM

0

Are there any bigger versions of that picture?  I was trying to work it out from the film, but I don't have the blu-ray and a big TV handy.

chliJan-12-2017 1:38 AM

1

Michelle and BD

If we stick to the premise that LV-223 was chosen by the engineers to conduct these dangerous experiments, then they wouldn’t do them on their own home planet? I suppose the logical thing then (if the engineers are wiped out) would be that David is responsible for their extinction (He becomes their “judge, jury and executioner” as you so eloquently put it, Michelle)? We know from the trailer that there are eggs on the juggernaut, or in a cave (and that a crew member of The Covenant sticks his nose into one of them and gets facehugged). David could have “manufactured” them during the journey? The deacon might also have sneaked aboard before they left LV-223?

On the other hand, there seem to be dangerous indigenous life already on “Paradise” in the form of spores that are airborne, leading to some other nasty form of beast, growing, and eventually, “gracefully” leaving its host? These spores could have evolved naturally on the planet or be the result of experiments?

BigDaveJan-12-2017 1:49 AM

212

I will see if i can find one... but i think thats the only one i found sorry...

But looking at the times the Map Appears in Prometheus and when we see the crew lit up under those Yellow Diamonds... for example F and M must mean Fifield and Milburn... the other scene did seem to have the Prometheus crew around the outside of one of those Large Rooms and same one M and F are just after they encounter the Dead Engineers....

So to me one of those Larger Room sections is where those Engineers tried to enter.... all but one managed to make it to the Room from one Door.... sadly those others could not get in from the other.

I did see another map that seemed to show TWO rooms that had Big Head Mural in them... i will have to try and dig it up.

ali81Jan-12-2017 2:01 AM

0

chii

the general theory on here is that david brings death in the form of the black goo to the planet and infects it and may also be doing experiments on indigenous life forms. all animal and plantlife is infected and the spores r a result of the original plant/fungi being infected and morphing.

 

chliJan-12-2017 2:23 AM

1

ali81

That might be the most probable scenario. David could, somehow, have brought the mutagen with him and in his spare time have become a gardener in Paradise. :)

AsbjørnJan-12-2017 2:23 AM

0

The temple/ship area looks like an ark, tomb or graveyard. Maybe they where excavating the area and got hit by a trap or awoken something bad.

ali81Jan-12-2017 2:46 AM

0

chli, I am given the impression that maybe all the engineer ships couldv been loaded with the goo so the ship david and shaw leave lv223 on is what ridley refers to as david bringing death. shaw also references the ship as taking death to earth

chliJan-12-2017 3:38 AM

1

ali81

You might be right. The cargo hold of all the juggenauts on LV-223 might be loaded with urns containing the mutagen. David finds this out during their journey to Paradise and can start his own experiments?

But if the engineers are still alive in Paradise and there is a juggernaut arriving from the quarantined LV-223, how would they be received? The engineer on LV-223 was very hostile to humans.

StarloggerJan-12-2017 7:32 AM

1

Good stuff! I like reading about all that. I, too, feel that some sort of Xeno was the attacker. Lindelof did a great job, IMHO...if there were no questions to be answered, then why have any more prequel---sequels???

Stan Winston (deceased)Jan-12-2017 5:42 PM

0

Because they've got us asking the wrong kind of questions. We're forced to ask: if a doorway is practically too small for an engineer; how come engineers run into the ampule room but then no sign of them there later (except the decapitated one); and why Fifield+1 gets lost despite him being the mapping guy. These are all questions arising from continuity errors and incoherent plot development -- not talented writing and cohesive story-telling.

S.MJan-12-2017 7:17 PM

0

I would've thought the simplest answer was they exited the room later on.  Something like that doesn't need explaining.

Stan Winston (deceased)Jan-12-2017 11:38 PM

0

What, and leave a dead guy and his divorced head lying around next to the font? I mean its body and head were still on either side of the doorway.

Many years of Columbo has taught me 'no, the others could not have left the room via the door lest they disturbed the victim.' ;p

MuzzleNZJan-13-2017 12:43 AM

0

Yeah - it does need explaining, otherwise the whole point of what they were running from and why they were running in to that room becomes yet another pointless part of the film.

If, however, it doesn't matter what the Engineers were doing on LV-223; what went wrong; what happened to them; why the installation(s) were apparently empty, then having them just walk out the same door, past the decapitated Engineer, going around to another door (possibly the back side of the ampule room), lying down in a pile and spontaneously exploding makes perfect sense.....

 

ali81Jan-13-2017 4:57 AM

0

ali81

You might be right. The cargo hold of all the juggenauts on LV-223 might be loaded with urns containing the mutagen. David finds this out during their journey to Paradise and can start his own experiments?

But if the engineers are still alive in Paradise and there is a juggernaut arriving from the quarantined LV-223, how would they be received? The engineer on LV-223 was very hostile to humans.

chli, I believe what david said to the engineer was part of what set him off. weyland gets david to ask the engineer how to give weyland eternal life. I don't think its then by chance that the engineer then gives his answer by ripping davids head off and using it to kill weyland. pretty symbolic an answer to me. also ridley has described the engineers as an aggressive/ violent race as a whole. how theyd receive the juggernaut?? if they know its place of origin I doubt theyd even let anything off the ship or even let it land unless the inhabitants on this planet don't have the capacity to stop it. possibly met with curiosity as these could be the first non engineers they have seen in millennia. also the events of the first contact will be relevant. is david able to communicate and does he reassure them theyr not hostile? loads of theories but my guess for the film is they either are not detected or r welcomed, at least david may be as they may tell the difference between david and shaw. who knows really but for the argument of AC at the very least david manages to land or crash, then disappear into the forest before anyone arrives.

ApacheizmJan-13-2017 2:34 PM

0

I love reading everyone's theories and suggestions and knowledge of the whole Alien experience. I swear there are a few of you here who have one heck of an imagination and are amazing story tellers, that I wish Ridley Scott would hire for his SciFi films especially the Alien series.

 

By the way Happy New Year to everyone.. Shout out to Michelle and BigDave

S.MJan-13-2017 2:53 PM

0

"What, and leave a dead guy and his divorced head lying around next to the font? I mean its body and head were still on either side of the doorway."

Not knowing what happened in the intervening 2000 years - there's scope for any number of scenarios.

"Yeah - it does need explaining, otherwise the whole point of what they were running from and why they were running in to that room becomes yet another pointless part of the film."

All we need to know is something bad happened to the Engineers.  The finer details aren't vital to the plot. (Would've been nice though)

MuzzleNZJan-13-2017 2:57 PM

0

'Finer details aren't vital to the plot' pretty much sums up Prometheus ;)

Find 'invitation' - go check it out - Engineers all dead - possibly killed my some nasty goo - goo then causes pandemonium - oh, look, one Engineer is alive - kill him, go find where he came from.

Chuck in a bunch of finer detail that doesn't quite link up and you go from a 60min movie to an 120min movie!

FarlanderJan-13-2017 3:08 PM

0

After reading all these comments full of interesting theories and ideas, I've come to some thoughts about different points of the story, thoughts that, I admit, lack more solid evidences (for now, at least), but I would like to share with you all:

1) Are we able to assure that Prometheus was really the first human expedition to LV-223?    

Would it be possible that an earlier encounter between mankind and the Engineers took place? I mean not in some sort of "creation" process, but as two races already evolved? To consider an earlier attempt of contact made by men (and the eventual encounter) could shed some light on important aspects of the whole story (as the the reason why the Engineers were heading towards Earth, the existence - and maybe the break - of some kind of covenant, and even some level of direct or indirect participation in the outbreak/attack on the Pyramid at LV-223). Peter Weyland himself could know more about it, and then being so sure about meeting them (it also touches a point that always seemed to be out of place, to me: why would the Engineers, being so superior, spend all this effort against "poor" mankind?).

2) Are we able to assure that the Engineers really 'engineered us'?

Being objective: the main evidences about them being 'our creators' lies in - 1) the images Dr. Shaw and Holloway have found in the caves, that shows some kind of worship or admiration, no doubt, but that do not necessarily indicates "look, there goes our makers!"; and 2) the matching DNA discovered by Shaw and Ford through the 'exploding head' scene, that MAY indicate this 'creator-creation' relation, but again, only proves that Engineers and men share the same biological structure, for whatever the reason (could be both part of some bigger creation, for example, or in different evolutionary stages, I don't know). When asked about the "proves" of this 'engineering', in the scene in which Holloway explains the objectives of the mission, Shaw's answer to Millburn question ("How do you know?") is "I don't. But it's what I choose to believe." She aknowledges the lack of consistent proves at that instance, only then being 'convinced' by the DNA sample. At the same time, Peter Weyland seems to be very confident about this possible meeting, financing the mission and secretly getting onboard. Would he know something we don't? 

This is actually my first comment ever, I'm new to this forum! Sorry if I commit any English mistake, it's not my native language! :D

 

 

 

S.MJan-13-2017 3:17 PM

0

"At the same time, Peter Weyland seems to be very confident about this possible meeting, financing the mission and secretly getting onboard. Would he know something we don't? "

I think it's more about it being his last chance at immortality.

And welcome.  Your English is fine. :)

TastymorphJan-13-2017 7:09 PM

0

I agree with Xenowarrior. The entrance(s) are blocked due to sediment deposits over time. Once can only imagine the shift in ground soils from the storm that occurred during the film. Afetr watching the movie for many times, I see nothing that the "Terror Dome" was attacked. Walls and doors appear to have collapsed because 2000+ years have gone by, not from some kind of outward siege attack. Everything came from the inside out. Inside out also fits with the terror narrative throughout all the Alien movies.

BlackstarJan-15-2017 8:13 PM

0

Anyone have a link to the xeno/deacon screams heard in prometheus? I cant find what you guys are talking about...

S.MJan-15-2017 10:35 PM

0

When David activates the hologram inside the pyramid temple thing, a ring of holographic light goes down the tunnel and is followed by a scream similar to the Deacon at the end with some electronic distortion.

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About Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant Movie

Release Date:

May 19th, 2017

Plot Synopsis:

Ridley Scott returns to the universe he created in ALIEN with ALIEN: COVENANT, the second chapter in a prequel trilogy that began with PROMETHEUS -- and connects directly to Scott’s 1979 seminal work of science fiction. Bound for a remote planet on the far side of the galaxy, the crew of the colony ship Covenant discovers what they think is an uncharted paradise, but is actually a dark, dangerous world -- whose sole inhabitant is the "synthetic" David (Michael Fassbender), survivor of the doomed Prometheus expedition.

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