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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

Alien: Covenant

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Scott vs Blomkamp for the next Alien movie!

Scott vs Blomkamp for the next Alien movie!

Following the recent and monumental acquisition of 21st Century Fox by Disney, South-African director Neill Blomkamp has released some previously unseen concept art from the sequel to James Cameron's Aliens he had proposed and was briefly considered by Fox back in 2015. These two images, one of the iconic UD-4L Cheyenne Dropship in a hangar and another of the titular Xenomorph antagonist lurking in a ventilation shaft (pictured below), have sparked new interest in Blomkamp's canceled Aliens sequel. With many fans of the Alien franchise apprehensive about the future of their beloved movie series following Fox's acquisition by Disney and the division of the fanbase caused by Ridley Scott's polarizing prequels to Alien, these two pieces of concept art have been viewed by some commentators as a possible pitch by Blomkamp to the new executives at Disney at reviving interest in his proposed Alien movie, originally titled Alien: Awakening.

In 2015 Blomkamp released concept art via his Instagram account that featured franchise star Sigourney Weaver reprising her role as Ellen Ripley, accompanied by Michael Biehn as Colonial Marine Corporal Dwayne Hicks, complete with the facial burns he suffered toward the end of 1986's Aliens. The release of other conceptual images featuring the derelict Juggernaut and the Xenomorph Queen, among others have ignited an overwhelmingly positive response from fans, movie critics, and even general audiences. Following the release of the concept art for the movie, long-term Alien franchise collaborators Amalgamated Dynamics (ADI) released concept make up effects for Biehn's character. With support growing for the movie from ADI, Weaver, and Biehn, Blomkamp confirmed that the sequel would be his next movie, but in October 2015 the project was put on hold by studio Fox, pending the reception to Scott's Alien: Covenant. Yet, despite Covenant's underwhelming performance at the box office Scott, who had previously been attached as Alien: Awakening's executive producer, confirmed that Blomkamp's movie had been canceled and that the next installment in his series of prequels to Alien would assimilate the movie's title.

Despite Fox chairperson Stacey Snider's claims that she trusts Scott with the future of the Alien franchise, the recent acquisition of Fox by Disney, Blomkamp's timely release of these new pieces of concept art, and the growing division among the fanbase may actually be the chain of events that could see Disney executives seriously consider Blomkamp's vision for the future of the Alien franchise. Unfortunately, since the initial cancelation of the project, support for it among the Alien fanbase has grown divided with supporters eager to revisit the world and characters Cameron first created in 1986, but with detractors citing Blomkamp's filmography as reason enough to leave the project abandoned. We here at Scified have played devils advocate and aired both arguments; believing Blomkamp's vision to revisit the popular "Ripley" era of the universe may be the much-needed injection the franchise needs, while conversely, we have cited our concerns that the projects use of nostalgia and fan-service may not be enough for fans that want to see the franchise evolve beyond its humble movie monster beginnings.

To seriously consider Blomkamp's vision of a sequel to Aliens over Scott's preference for a "War of the Worlds" between the Engineers and sociopathic synthetic David, we have to ascertain which proposal is the better alternative, but to do so we must ask ourselves what constitutes a good Alien movie. Not in terms of our individual opinions, which are subjective, but by critically identifying the better movies of the franchise through objective analysis. As such, poor characterization and poor narrative structure immediately omit's Scott's prequels, and the needlessly comedic undertones and poor execution see Alien: Resurrection join them. Despite its growing favor over the years one too must also strike Alien 3 from contention due to its many narrative inconsistencies, which leaves us with the first two installments; Scott's Alien and Cameron's Aliens. The former is the progenitor of the franchise, which while scattered with small flaws is considered a classic and a masterpiece by most of the fanbase. The latter, while the subject of much criticism from some fans was executed beautifully within its chosen genre and has since inspired other franchises such as Starship Troopers and Halo. Each of these two movies features memorable and cherished characters and effectively use the Xenomorph as the antagonist to create fear, suspense, drama, and a sense of overwhelming and impending futility.

This leads us to the conclusion that a good Alien movie should feature the titular antagonist, used effectively in its role opposite a group of well-realized human characters, along with every good movies necessary ingredient - a strong and effective narrative. Considering the aforementioned poor characterization of the Alien prequels and Scott's intention for the sequel to Alien: Covenant to continue its focus on David as the antagonist, rather than the Xenomorph would suggest that Scott's proposal would not make for a good Alien movie. On the other hand, Blomkamp wishes to metaphorically resurrect favored characters Ripley, Hicks, and Newt in a story that will see the Xenomorph return to prominence as the movie's antagonist. Fans of Scott's prequels will state their desire to see the prequel series completed and tied narratively into 1979's Alien, but do we really need a sequel to Alien: Covenant? Do we really need to see the fate of the colony ship? Do we really need the mystery of the derelict Juggernaut revealed? Would it not be better to leave the fate of the USCSS Covenant and the history of the derelict open to interpretation and future exploration? Conversely, one could argue the same of Blomkamp's proposed sequel and ask whether we really need to see Ripley, Hicks and Newt return, only for them to be returned to the grave? Do we really need to return to LV-426's derelict Juggernaut and its cargo of Ovomorph's (Xenomorph eggs)? and importantly for fans, how exactly does Blomkamp intend on resurrecting Hicks and Newt, who died in Alien 3's opening?

Another note for consideration is the viability of each director. Of the two Scott is arguably the more experienced, talented and capable director, however, Scott has stated that Alien: Covenant was produced in reaction to social media negativity towards Prometheus and despite their prominent roles in Covenant Scott believes the 'Morphs' to no longer be viable as the series antagonist. Meanwhile, despite his relative inexperience Blomkamp has repeatedly stated that he is an avid fan of and holds great love for the franchise. The final factor we should all consider is the future. In this we have to be blunt, Scott recently turned 80, whereas Blomkamp recently turned 38. As such, Blomkamp's youth makes him a worthy investment for the Alien franchise, with Scott posing a much greater risk.

Which brings us to our deliberation. Can we trust Scott to hastily direct another prequel movie that will again feature David as the prime antagonist with the Xenomorph likely making a poorly executed cameo appearance, which will spoon feed fans unnecessary answers to mysteries that will likely fail to live up to fans high expectations? Conversely, Can the relatively inexperienced Blomkamp be trusted to deliver on the promises of his concept art and direct a worthy sequel to Aliens that will reinvigorate and unify the widely divided fanbase. Although we may have our reservations, it would appear that Blomkamp's vision may be what the Alien franchise needs regardless of whether or not it is what the fanbase actually wants. The director's recent work at his newly founded OAT Studios shows a growing maturity in his work, which together with his well-publicized love for the series could be the deciding factor if Disney decides in Blomkamp's favor.

However, there is a third option. Rather than having to choose between either Scott or Blomkamp, why is not possible for the two to put their differences aside and work together. With Blomkamp directing and Scott as executive producer could Blomkamp's proposed sequel to Aliens not return to LV-426 as his concept art suggests. Instead, with LV-426 totaled in Aliens we could instead find Ripley, Hicks, and Newt on LV-223, Planet 4 or even Origae-6. One would imagine the latter would likely have become a Weyland-Yutani research outpost following the transmission David sent them detailing the Xenomorph in Covenant's closing scenes and in the movies post-marketing video titled "The secrets of Davids Lab: the Engineers" (above). Weaver, Biehn, and Carrie Henn (Newt) could be joined by Michael Fassbender as David, with the planet having become a graveyard following David's unseen confrontation with the Engineers, with only David having survived, possibly hiding in an Engineer hypersleep pod having maybe become mortal from too much exposure to the Black Pathogen.

If you're a fan of Alien / Prometheus and would like to discuss Alien: Covenant and its upcoming sequel with other like-minded fans, be sure to join in our Alien: Covenant forum! Ranked the #1 Prometheus forum back in 2012 and reigning as the web's top Alien: Covenant fan site, it's a great place to discuss the upcoming Prometheus sequels, dissect details from every trailer and engage with other fans just like you.

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133 Fan responses to Scott vs Blomkamp for the next Alien movie!

Ati

Dec-30-2017 1:05 PM

I'd like to see both of them, all of them.

I want to see Scott's final chapter of the Alien prequels, and Blomkamp's vision as well.

I want Scott's war movie, and I like Blomkamp's traditional robots very much, so... Disney, give them to us!

IRaptus

Dec-30-2017 1:42 PM

Ditto what Ati said :)

 

IRaptus

Dec-30-2017 1:44 PM

 4th option. BigDave is Executive Producer for both projects

dk

Dec-30-2017 2:11 PM

Bloomkamp could give it a go as long as he doesn't mess with A3 or AR. If he can't, he could do an Isolation scenario.

BigDave

Dec-30-2017 3:36 PM

I have had a bit to drink so please forgive me if i come across the wrong way or ranting ;)

I respect everyone has their own opinion but i think a Blomkamp Alien 5 would be a pile of horse poop lol, well would be no better than The Last Jedi, however Xenos and Ripley could well please Fanboys and make $$$$ and i think this is the route thats likely taken, that ultimately cremate the beast not cook it, ignore the Engineers or make them less significant than Snoke... and just be a Ripley Saga...  even spanning a few sequels with her Power Loader and Blue Badge for Parking (UK fans would get the Mobility Joke).

i think Ridley Scott was RIGHT only he had not covered the Xeno link enough, distanced himself too far, to concentrate and set up a BIGGER Plot, then backed down to FOX and Fanboys and disregarded the Bigger Plot to Spoon Feed the Xenomorph but in a way that did it NO justice.

The Franchise is a Mess...

Doing a Blomkamp would discredit Alien  3 and Alien R, give Miss Weaver a ever growing PAY CHECK (who is so over rated anyway).  And Overcook the Xenomorph... We need something NEW...

Sadly the Franchise is Split and the ALIEN Universe will always be considered about the Xenomorph.. which to a degree is RIGHT, but then the SPACE JOCKEY is Alien too, and the Engineers had potential.

The Problem now is a case of RIPLEY or DAVID and i just dont think either is the RIGHT path.... the Engineers is the PATH to take IMO

We need Closure and i think if Disney had the BALLS and took the risk, we need a Alien Covenant PT3 that bypasses Part 2 to draw us to ALIEN and we need a ALIEN 5 set after Alien Resurrection, or another Alien movie set Parallel to Aliens in a distant place or visiting Planet 4 or another Engineer World.

i dont think more than ONE more David Movie would work, and i can only see ONE more Ripley movie as being Harmful.

BigDave

Dec-30-2017 3:44 PM

I think right now the Prequels leaves the following unanswered... Even if we now accept David is the Creator.

*How does David and his TWO Face Huggers lead to Thousands of Eggs, that end up being on LV-426, which by coincidence is close to LV-223 and we can assume is NO-WHERE near Origae-6 and his Creation ends up on a Engineer Ship?

*Is the Derelict the only ship to have attempted to transport Davids creation?

*What becomes of Planet 4 by the time of Aliens or on-wards?

*What becomes of LV-223 by the time of Alien and on-wards?

*What becomes of Origae-6 by the time of Alien/Aliens?

*What becomes of the Engineers and Hierarchy by the time of Alien/Aliens?

*How vast is the Engineers Creations on other Worlds and had they only attempted to use the Black Goo on Earth?

Then we also have to ponder.

*What happened on Earth/the Company between Aliens and Alien R regarding the Synthetic  Uprising and Sub-creating the Autons.

*What becomes of Ripley 8 and any Xeno DNA related Experiments or Material never mind Engineer Tech after the events of ALIEN Resurrection?

All of these are potential to be explored...

We need closure to how those Eggs got on the Derelict more than Resurrect Ripley and Eggs and Queens while discounting Alien 3 on-wards.

BigDave

Dec-30-2017 3:52 PM

Why would Blomkamps Alien 5 work? or Fail?

Because Fanboys love Aliens and Miss Weaver thinks Ripley never had a good ending (despite requesting for her to killed off) end of the Day Miss Weaver wants a Pay Check!!! But indeed Xenomorphs are still quite cool if not scary anymore.

Yet what does this offer NEW? can we go a Alien 5, then Alien 6 and keep the same Xenomorphs?

Why would a Prequel to Alien Work/Fail

We need closure, once we opened the Pandoras Box about the Xenomorph especially by going the Spoon Fed AC route, we cant abandon it...  It needs a answer, but it needs to also bring in something more ALIEN because and especially since AC the Engineers are no longer as awe inspiring as the Space Jockey.

The Engineers are something to expand upon, the various ways the Black Goo can give us more Xenomorph like Creations etc etc.

The whole David Creation has taken the Prequels to be more about him, than the Engineers and the Biological Warfare and Experiments they had been involved in.  The Prequels lacked that ALIEN feel as far as Engineers and Alien like Monsters on the attack.... The Neomorphs, Deacon were all decent, they just never had the same hunting and killing effect that we saw in Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 and so it was more a Alien R.

drop your linen

Dec-30-2017 4:06 PM

Can the writers at alien-covenant.com PLEASE stop using the term 'titular xenomorph antagonist' in every post they write! 

BigDave

Dec-30-2017 4:17 PM

I think we cant avoid the Xenomorph,  now they attempted to showcase HOW and WHEN and WHY they have to carry though... i personally think the Universe is bigger than the Xenomorph which is no more to the Engineers than Mankind discovering Gunpowder and then Evolving Weapons based on this.

Its why i think what can a Blomkamp Alien 5 add?  Answer NOTHING... A AVP Reboot would be better than a Resurrect the Queen and Ripley and Piss all over the prequels and Alien 3/Alien R

BigDave

Dec-30-2017 4:23 PM

The Question we ULTIMATELY have to ask is what is ALIEN about ALIEN?

Ripley?  Nope.. but her Story was interesting and came to the ideal conclusion in Alien 3

The Xenomorph? Yes, but after Alien 3 it needed something Fresh, which AR attempted but it had to Shoehorn Ripley back into it...  

The Company?  Nope!

The Space Jockey?  100% YES, but the way it was dealt with was flawed, and AC further toned down the Alien-ness of the Space Jockey... David Creating the Xenomorph is on one hand interesting but on another tones down the Engineers and makes them less ALIEN.

The Answers are in HR Gigers Concept Works....  and the Question, WHY are/would Bald Humanoid looking beings Self Sacrifice themselves for various Xenomorph related Organisms to Procreate and Spread?  WHY?

These beings did not appear ALIEN enough.... but the Question WHY could become something very Sinister and ALIEN

 

 

 

IRaptus

Dec-30-2017 4:24 PM

The Neomorphs, Deacon were all decent, they just never had the same hunting and killing effect that we saw in Alien...

BigDave you are correct on that for sure!  The Deacon was more of a fan service for Prometheus and is thus a loose end and a enigma. 

To me the Neomorph's have potential as a future antagonist to offer a different perspective to the Xenomorph as a predator. The classic Xenomorph is indisputably an apex predator. A pure hunter and killer. 

The Neomorphs can offer a different and fresh threat that compliments the Xenomorph. Acting more as a meso-predator the Neomorph can be more of a chaotic pack-hunter rather than the formidable but solitary hunter Xeno.

But the big difference I have proposed a few times is a new dangerous reproductive cycle. When a Neomorph dies their cadavers could produce spore pods rendering any Neomorph death a new threat and a contaminated environment. Much like the Xeno acid, even in death they pose a threat. In essence Neomorph are shock troopers. They invade, sow chaos, break defences, and then every time they die they have a new foothold to invade from. 

BigDave

Dec-30-2017 4:33 PM

Indeed thats interesting IRaptus and its something i covered in my Xeno Eggs/Cabbage post from over a year ago, where a Cabbage (cabbage patch looks like the Xeno Eggs on the Derelict) can Clone Itself from dead Material, a Cabbage thus never dies, it regrows...

When RS said the Xenomorph in AC killed by the Lander would Regenerate, this sounded a bit Stupid, but not if from its Genetic Material Egg Spores Grow and so the Neomorph route you describe fits this.

As for the Deacon, it was kind of Fan Service, but it was more so the peice of the PUZZLE to show how the Xenomorph was connected, it was saying "look this crap the Engineers have been storing and experimenting on in those Vases, under certain circumstances creates a Hybrid Face Hugger that creates a Hybrid Xenomorph"

Thus showing the Black Goo is connected to the Xenomorph, the Xenomorph either was the Origin of what came in those Urns or it was a Evolution of something that came from those Urns, or the Xenomorph and the Black Goo Share another Common Ancestor.

The clues were there...

RS then even told us the Xenomorph Originated from LV-223 but this event (Space Jockey) was a within a few hundred years of the LV-223 Outbreak, while this is Ambigious...

It left TWO answers.

1) The Xenomorph was something taken to LV-223 that lead to the Mural and Experiments that became the Black Goo.  And thus a few hundred years after the Derelict the Engineers had killed themselves off by experimenting on those Eggs.

2) The Xenomorph Evolved from something that happened after the Black Goo Outbreak.

But alas... Prometheus was not Spoon Fed so FOX decided to Spoon Feed it only thrown in the David Curveball.

 

joylitt

Dec-30-2017 4:36 PM

I also would like to see both movies. However, Ridley Scott's one shouldn't be David's origin story, as Gavin seems to suggest. I strongly believe that the focus on David in "Alien Covenant" was due to the fact that he was the strongest character in Prometheus, and because the rest of the sci-fi elements in the script were so bland and unoriginal. I think David's being overused was more like a filler: he functioned as a contrived villain. Ridley Scott needs to continue to expand on his story: downsizing is not a choice right now. The Engineers need to be redeemed: they cannot be just some dumb dudes annihilated by the sub-creation of their creation. That is just lame and nonsensical.

ignorantGuy

Dec-30-2017 6:22 PM

BigDave

"The Answers are in HR Gigers Concept Works....  and the Question, WHY are/would Bald Humanoid looking beings Self Sacrifice themselves for various Xenomorph related Organisms to Procreate and Spread?  WHY?"

Well that is the most interesting question for me too, but sadly neither of these movies would explore. Sir Scott's next movie will be most likely the fall of David and just that. So sincerely, on what we know now, neither movie is very compelling (nor is a reboot).

Batchpool

Dec-30-2017 7:30 PM

At this moment in time I am at a point where someone may detect some blood in my alcohol stream, and I am capable of fully recharging a nicorette.

I often read through many posts, ideas and proposals, but I lurk in the background most often due to limited availability of time to compose appropriate responses.

Well tonight’s your lucky night! Grab yer coat cos you’ve pulled!

I personally hold Neill Blomkamp totally responsible for the underperformance of AC. ( Let that sink in for a few moments of your time)

Right now Neill is doing his Oats Studio stuff and going though some transitional stage exploring new ideas like how to create a good script that can make money on the same level as Ridley Scott, that is also effective over the duration of a full length feature film rather than an affect movie short that only You Tube reviewers will praise, and lets face it there are those reviewers who are all horn and no driveshaft anyway.

Momentarily I have to just put my head in my hands and like the Swedish chef from the Muppets utter Porg! Porg! Porg! For no reason whatsoever.

So down to business. I‘d like to say with a clear head, but knowingly know I have already undermined this premise to a certain degree. Any suggestion of Neill Blomkamp doing an Alien movie may sound a great idea after viewing District 9, but what has followed does not really prove he can pull in the big bucks. Elysium was a great effort, and somewhat under rated in my humble opinion, But I feel that Neill should be treated as a director that has not really hit the mark just yet, but is capable of doing so.

The only problem with having an alcohol induced event is that cold, left over lasagne becomes a massive distraction, hence this highly informative and somewhat irrelevant sentence, so for any further information please read again.

Finally, I will actually get to the point.

 

Everything was going great after Prometheus. Yes, there was some division amongst fans, but it was a great movie that was supposed to be pre Alien. I think some people missed some basic clues there. The word alien was not in the title, and it was a story pitched prior to alien. That sort of thing should really send out some big clues, like no xenomorph. The clue is in the title is it not?

Prometheus pulled in a tidy penny and everyone was happy. Everyone that is except good old Neill Blomkamp. Sat there looking for his moment to pounce with his riding on the wave of District 9 ego. He must have felt like a God until he produced Chappie.

And then the unthinkable happened. Just as RS was trying to create a whole new universe, Neill decides to share what he thinks was a great idea with the world.

Lets not really do anything new, lets just regurgitate old tropes and throw a different spin on it all by introducing some clever aesthetics that went down well with District 9 fans. Suddenly, RS is forced to deliver a product in the form of AC that regurgitates old tropes.

Well thanks for that Neill you great big blabbermouth. How about letting people finish their projects in hand, before interjecting and derailing what could have been a more original movie from RS.

So where does this leave us all now, thanks to Neill’s premature actions?

Let RS finish the job.

Ati

Dec-30-2017 9:30 PM

Good points Batchpool, I agree with you.

Ridley Scott is the first one. 

dk

Dec-30-2017 10:13 PM

Batchpool I usually make brief comments but I need to respond since a lot happened not long after Prometheus was released.

Those are good observations. At the time, I recall then Prometheus 2 was not sounding too great to many fans- at best, things sounded vague. I felt frustrated when I got the vibe that Prometheus 2 would not tie into Alien as I interpreted it to be right around late 2012/2013. When the Alien 5 idea came out, it was exciting and I was among those rooting for it. In hindsight, I have since flipped flopped and want to see RS connect to Alien before anything else happens.

I am not sure the blame lies squarely on Bloomkamp. It seems FOX noticed and reacted to fan feedback back then and presssured RS to bring back the beast. FOX could have said- No, we will let RS do his thing. We all know how things played out.

I still like Bloomkamp's idea as long as it wouldn't mess with the established canon that is A3 and AR. He could still do a really good movie by possibly making a hybrid of Alien 5 and Alien Isolation. This could tell a story and possibly spread out WITHOUT ruining established canon.

Gavin

Dec-30-2017 10:26 PM

@ Joylitt,

The David origin angle for Ridley's next movie suggestion was for the previous article only. There are many ways the third prequel could go, here's half a dozen...

#1 - David vs Engineers vs Weyland-Yutani "War of the Worlds"

#2 - Davids origin story

#3 - Post Aliens/Resurrection Ripley travels to Origae-6

#4 - Paradise, using the neutrino blast to retcon Covenant out of continuity and give fans the original sequel (days of future past style)

#5 - The third moon orbiting Calpamos

#6 - Shaws story between Prometheus and Covenant

As for sequels post-Alien, there are almost infinite possibilities, many of which don't require retconning Alien 3 out of continuity, and as fans, we have probably each imagined at least half a dozen of those possibilities based upon what we have each taken from the franchise personally.

@ drop your linen,

The titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist, the titular xenomorph antagonist.

@ Batchpool,

A very fair and valid point. When Ridley said Covenant was made as a reaction to the backlash Prometheus received on social media, we all assumed comments made here, on AvP Galaxy on the HISHE video. Blomkamp's release of his concept art could be another factor and would deepen the metaphorical pissing contest between the two directors over who should lead the Alien franchise.

@ BigDave,

Showing support for Ridley is commendable, and admittedly the guy has, although probably not in the way he intended, rejuvenated interest in the franchise through continually polarizing the fanbase. And while I am not necessarily advocating Blomkamp to take over, do we really need another prequel? Do we really need to be spoonfed where the space jockey and all the eggs came from? Isn't ambiguity and mystery a better option moving forward?

dk

Dec-30-2017 10:35 PM

Gavin Agree- it could tie to Alien and be done and leaving some ambiguity, things for us to ponder and debate, would be a good thing. It might be possible to wrap things up if Disney might allow an additional 30 minutes of run time in the theater. AC, although very good, might have brought in more income if so much material didn't get chopped for time's sake.

joylitt

Dec-30-2017 10:43 PM

dk I Don't think Bloomkamp has done absolutely anything to try to derail RS plans for the Alien franchise. Are some people in this forum upset that he even dared to show some of his concept art?... we have to remember that Ridley Scott himself was going to be the executive producer of Alien 5. All of the drama with the Alien franchise leading to its maybe cancelled status is Ridley's own doing. Let's just take a look at some of his latest comments: http://observer.com/2017/12/ridley-scott-rips-lucasfilm-star-wars-the-last-jedi/

In this article he seems to blast younger directors and he advertises himself with these words: “You can get me for my fee, which is heavy, but I’ll be under budget and on time." Not one word about stamping his personal vision, not one word of originality nor audience satisfaction. 

Michelle Johnston

Dec-30-2017 11:31 PM

If only the narrative thread of the prequels was written with the clarity and certainty of the excellent lead article . 

Is Alien Covenant an excellent film that was misunderstood at the Box Office. No  :-

1) It was not a satisfying sequel to Prometheus.

2) It was not a successful remake of the first films structure.

3) It certainly would not satisfy ALIENS fans.

After that you get into perceived weak protocols, disengaged characters (actually the problems to many) and the construction of the suspense. I think the creature was portrayed as high camp (They say they want Aliens I will give them ....ing Aliens).

That said the excellent Bladerunner 2049 was loved by my generation, bombed and had not a millennial in sight in my viewing. I think a Prometheus 2 could have been astonishing .... and bombed. 

So Disney may look at the Scott philosophical side of the equation and .... ignore it. They may look at the pulse rifles, nam, regular characters of A's  and the inner fan boy needs and .... ignore it.... and after a very long pause with new minds new ideas bring back the universe in a fresh way that speaks to the millennials. If I was the money I would opt for the latter. I miss Prometheus 2 and the search for our creea-tors as David calls it but the rest is of no interest and in the meantime I can dwell on the rich imagery, symbolism and meaning of BR2049 when it emerges on Blu Ray.    

 

 

  

 

 

ignorantGuy

Dec-31-2017 12:22 AM

Michelle Johnston

Look, because of his age this might have been Scott's last chance to make something unique. And he choose to be a business man not an artist and  to be "under budget and on time." and planned for endless sequels. 

And Disney has no new ideas !

joylitt

Dec-31-2017 12:39 AM

red0guy I am just crossing my fingers he finds the right script. The "under budget and on time" motto works only when you have the right material. It has to be something that makes everybody happy, including the studio, so there is no interference on their behalf.

AndoV2.0

Dec-31-2017 5:52 AM

I’d like both but if pushed to choose, it would be Blomkamp. He clearly has a passion for the series and the fact he is a ‘fan’ shouldn’t be seen as a negative - it means he is more likely to create a film which will appeal.

As for folk slating Blomkamps resume, each of his three films pulled in good returns in respect of their budget - something Covenant with an established brand couldn’t do. And further more, both District 9 and Elysium were top notch in my opinion. Chappie is the weakest of the three however it’s not a bad film. And in fact, it had the effect on me when watching of sadness that humanity would corrupt and abuse the technology/gift the way they did to Chappie.

MonsterZero

Dec-31-2017 6:01 AM

I'm okay with this. 

Questions for 2018:

IF the derelict on LV426 crashed....Why was it laying perfectly flat?  It had a 50% chance of being upside down....Or at least at some odd angle.  If I was set designer and wanted to show a 'crashed' space ship, I would show the set at a slant, making it obvious to the audience that the ship crash landed. Making it hard for the explorers to navigate the Juggernaut.....(obvious this was 1979 and they were just building a set on the floor of warehouse and weren't thinking about such things) 

 

Why was Ash kept a secret from the crew of the Nostromo?!

dk

Dec-31-2017 6:07 AM

joylitt- All the article really says to me is "Get off my lawn".

ignorantGuy

Dec-31-2017 6:57 AM

MonsterZero

No quite, most likely in real life it would have disintegrated on impact, or at least damaged. But judging how the physics work around the ship as seen in Prometheus, anything goes.

MonsterZero

Dec-31-2017 9:38 AM

A reboot would be cool...They enter the derelict walking on the ceiling and they have to look up to see the Space Jockey! See it hanging from the ceiling/floor 40 meters above Dallas and crews heads....They might have to climb up to get a better look........*WHAM*...... Facehugged!

MonsterZero

Dec-31-2017 9:44 AM

Michelle Johnston I agree on all your points.

I guess the big question is:   Just who is in charge?!? Is Fox(a division of Disney)or Disney? Does the old guard still call the shots, with permission from Disney, or are they all reassigned (fired/retired)?

 

Michelle Johnston

Dec-31-2017 10:53 AM

MonsterZero

Very wise of you to agree with me ... haha.

Goodness knows to your question but here is the thing if you make a cottage industry movie and its huge hit everyone smiles. Then in the next one you throw dollars at it and your whole modus operandi changes. The dollar tale wags the artistic dog. Hey guys we want to make a movie about the origins of mankind. Cool do not put those penis head things in their cooked. Then Neil offers his "really helpful" story boards and half the fanbase start drooling at the mouth. Hey maybe we were about hasty on the penis head so we get AC.

Thats why a very dry financial brain might say lets chill out and come up with something really fresh which is much more genuinely violent and unsympathetic. The kind of difference between the tailors dummy of Roger Moore as JB and the Jason Bourne Bond of Daniel. I hear that Amazon are gonna reboot the Tolkien franchise its odds on that the same will happen to the Alien Universe.       

daliens

Dec-31-2017 5:13 PM

I didn't like Aliens so I would not care about Blomkamp's sequel to Aliens. He can wait...forever. 

Let Ridley Scott continue what he started. And please don't give in to fanboys, Ridley. Do it like you said: no aliens, no horror. No Ripley. 

joylitt

Dec-31-2017 11:56 PM

daliens Yes. Like you said: no aliens, no horror, no Ripley. Everything should be about a big fat check... I don't think so, daliens. These guys I follow on you youtube said in their review of "All the money in the world" that they felt the movie was directed by someone who is "going to work". That's how I felt about Alien Covenant...

daliens

Jan-01-2018 2:42 AM

joylitt

At this point I would advise Ridley Scott to let Blomkamp do his own film. It would be a sweet revenge for Scott but a waste of time for us all. Blomkamp's film cannot be any better than Alien Resurrection. That's my honest opinion.

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 3:05 AM

I blame James Cameron and his infantile bug hunt, which seems to be so appealing to some, for all this mess. And Bloomkamp is nothing but an opportunist from my point of view. Chappie ("Mommy, mommy!") is a good example of what to expect if he ever manages to direct an Alien movie. Not to mention that bringing all that Ripley/Newt/Hicks stuff back would also require loads of CGI and three strong pairs of crutches.

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 3:34 AM

And if there's no way around it and Blomkamp is to have the final word due to his connections with James Cameron (who is more than happy with the Disney/Fox deal), I would strongly suggest a brand new approach to the Alien franchise: raising Sergio Leone from the dead to direct its reboot:

 

ignorantGuy

Jan-01-2018 4:11 AM

ScorpioStar

Why don't blame Scott himself for not sticking to that ending where the Xenomorph kills Ripley and contacts the Company? If commitment to Ripley, Hicks, newt is bad why is not to David (or any other Android played by Fassbender)?

I don't like Aliens (I like the shots from the extend version with the derelict and the silent Sulaco), but to consider that only a mindless bug hunt is a bit silly. It is a critique of gun ho attitudes (as all those marines are idiots, excepting Hicks) and corporate greed (same as the first one). Yes it is horror and in someways bombastic, and a more a more intelligent movie in the same vein is Verhoeven's Starship Troopers.

And in defence of Chappie, it more realistic for a brand new Artifical entity to behave like a toddler than a fully conscious entity whose first interaction with his creator is about death and servitude (claimming he is immortal? how does that work when in the previous movie he was decapitated and without repair he most definitely would have gone offline?).

And repeat myself for you either path (David's reign and fall or Aliens 2) is equally unimpressive for me. the most interesting thing to me would have been to explore a civilization (Engineers) in which individuals willingly sacrificed themselves to create Xenomorphs (explored already in 6 movies, some good, some bad) (as BigDave pointed regarding the discarded Giger artwork).

daliens

And what if Scott dies while Blomkamp films his film and fails what kind of victory would that be? For whom would be that good?

 

daliens

Jan-01-2018 7:20 AM

red0guy

Ridley Scott said the engineers will return,  Daniels and Tennessee will live to see Origae 6. Davis is in control of the Covenant with 2 facehugger embryos. I would really want to know what happens next. I am not at all interested in Blomkamp's puerile story.

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 8:02 AM

As I am a Sir Ridley person, I'll stick to my guns. If I am to blame my Sir, it would only be because he left enough road to a certain James Cameron to come with his Terminator Alien Style and spoil the whole thing with a useless bug hunt.

David Fincher tried to fix things up, but then "Boo-hoo! He killed them!!! Where are my beloved Ripley/Hicks/Newt?" sort of thing.

 

Blomkamp is a Cameron turned younger, both of them are predictable - and are together, for Cameron is a Disney favorite. And, guess what! Now their dreams will come true, for Disney is in charge and the guys at Disney LOVE family predictable dreams...

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 8:32 AM

But as many people stated above, it might be a good idea if Sir Ridley stepped aside and let the clowns do what they do best: be the clowns they are, Disney branded, while the rest of us sing, "It's the end of the world as we know it!"

 

 

ignorantGuy

Jan-01-2018 8:56 AM

daliens

Everything that does not end in a bloodbath and is not nihilistic is puerile? I don't think he can bring anything new to the table but neither does Sir Scott with his infatuation with Fassbender, and nothing new will be explained about the engineers, they will only fight David and that's it.

ScorpioStar

You do realize however that Cameron movies make a lot of money and Scott's prequels suffer from diminishing returns. "Blomkamp is a Cameron turned younger ... and are together", so this a conspiracy now? And the story of Alien 3 has nothing to do with Fincher and he even disowns that movie.

daliens

Jan-01-2018 9:03 AM

red0guy

Ridley Scott said he wants no aliens and no horror for the next film. So no bloodbath.

Here is a link for you if you support Blomkamp:

https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/neill-blomkamp-for-alien5

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 9:05 AM

Red0guy... don't you read the news?

Who's the so called producer for Blomkamp's "Alien5"?

Oh, you just read the headlines, but not the industry news... Got it.

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 9:08 AM

Blomkampk wants to ignore Fincher's work, by the way...

ignorantGuy

Jan-01-2018 9:17 AM

daliens

ScorpioStar

Don't use George W Bush logic on me. I don't want to see Aliens 2 neither Resident Fassbender.

I knew Scott would have benn the producer (until may at least) not Cameron, and I will require a link to what  you say.

And if Blomkamp will ignore Fincher's work, well, Fincher won't mind as he DISOWNED Alien 3.

ignorantGuy

Jan-01-2018 9:19 AM

daliens

And where is your counter-petition to that?

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 9:58 AM

No Bush logic here since I am not from the US, my being outside the usual box is far elsewhere, red0guy.

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 10:13 AM

Meanwhile, in Disneyland...

Ati

Jan-01-2018 10:55 AM

IRaptus - They have so much money! They could give everything... Anything!

However, I should admit I do not like the concept art shared by Blomkamp. I don't like it at all.

ScorpioStar - Nice! :)

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 11:00 AM

You're always welcome, Ati :)

Ati

Jan-01-2018 11:03 AM

Why can't we enjoy more movies from more directors?

I like Fincher's works very much. It would be fantastic to see his own Alien movie.

Ati

Jan-01-2018 11:04 AM

ScorpioStar - Ha, thanks! :) Such a beautiful start for the new year!

Ati

Jan-01-2018 11:08 AM

Is that a lasersword in Ridley's hand? :)

ScorpioStar

Jan-01-2018 11:12 AM

Ati, I don't think it was intended, but after you mentioned it, I could actually see Sir Ridley cutting Blomkamp's head off with it!

Ati

Jan-01-2018 11:20 AM

:DDD

A new one:

AndoV2.0

Jan-01-2018 2:39 PM

What I don’t get is everyone having a go at Blomkamp’s approach to the film/it’s story and how it would interact with 3 and AR.  Literally no-one aside from the people who worked on it know ANYTHING about it - it’s not like the 25 page draft has ever been leaked!!!!

LVBank

Jan-01-2018 8:37 PM

Ati - I agree with concept art comment. At first I liked it because I like everything alien but then I thought about it and I didn’t like any of it. Juggernaut was too small in scale Ripley and Hicks will be too old ( just as actors alone ) and queen alien looks like she’s running  similar to alien versus predator movies. In those movies I always thought the queen was just a little bit to agile.  I definitely enjoyed the queen in aliens movement better when it was a real life model and it looked more like  Kareem Abdul Jabbar -lanky but very athletic and actually real not a computer.   The only concept art I really liked was the new pic of the alien in the ductwork.  All of these movies need more / deeper connection with the characters including aliens in the ductwork. 

dk

Jan-01-2018 10:02 PM

Bloomkamp's concept art is just fine to me except for the queen pic. The queen looks good but the palm tree, ferns and footbridge look out of place- not alien-y at all.

BigDave

Jan-02-2018 12:13 AM

Before  reply to other comments, i can reflect on my RANT lol

To be fair with Blomkamp its hard to say how good is idea would be, there is not much Original about it, because its basically looking like   a COMPANY get its hands on a Engineers Ship (maybe the DERELICT) the Ship either has some different and similar Cargo or they experiment on the Cargo to give us a slightly different Xenomorph (which is a bit DIFFERENT) then looks like RIPLEY and HICKS return to SAVE the Day

It would be the same Tropes as we have seen in ALIENS and will be a Fanboy Fan Service, and while the idea of her MERGING with the SPACE JOCKEY Suit is something a bit more ORIGINAL i think this will only be used to basically REPLACE the POWERLOADER from Aliens in a Space Jockey Ripley VS Xenomorph Queen Finally.

This does not mean that the Movie would be bad, just the Plot is not too Original, but if we look at Aliens what have we got?   Ripley is rescued floating in Space 50+ years after the Events of Alien and is informed the Company have had a Colony on LV-426 that they lost contact with, Ripley and Marines go to the Colony and find only ONE Survivor and a Load of Xenomorphs and Queens.

Looking at the Plot like that, does not tell the Full Story that actually makes a Good Popcorn Action Flick, Executed very well, Aliens is one of the best Action Flicks you can see.

My Problem with a ALIEN 5 is apart from a Variant of Xenomorph and Space Jockey Tech, what we are looking at is not to different to ALIEN Resurrection.  And also i am not sure we should be MESSING with CANON, while it could give us a Alternative Sequel to Aliens and it could work... ONCE and especially with DISNEY they offer a Ret-con to a Aliens Sequel, its a case of where do they STOP?  Once we Open that PANDORA'S BOX and offer some Fans a Alternative Sequel to ALIENS what happens if DISNEY think they can then offer ALTERNATIVE PREQUELS

My other Concern is Miss Weaver, as it appears Blomkamps Alien 5 did not directly replace Alien 3 at all, and there was NO Ripley...  until he discussed it with Miss Weaver, you can be sure SHE would want a BIG say in how her Character is Portrayed, and No doubt would ask for Quite a Large Pay Cheque  it concerned me when she mentioned that she felt Ripleys Ending was not done well in Alien 3 and how she deserved a Happy Ending, despite being the ONE to ask for her Character to be KILLED off in a Alien 3

And so this is the Concern, DISNEY will notice this movie could please FANBOYS and make $$$$ and in Disney Tradition could turn this into a very PG13 Popcorn Flick thats all about RIPLEY and Happy Endings. Thus i think we would get a DISNEY version of a ALIEN Resurrection rather than something more Serious like ALIEN and ALIEN 3

IF Blomkamps Movie is made and it makes a very good $$$$ Return then you can bet we will see a ALIEN 6 and ALIEN 7 etc  would Ripley Pass the Torch?

it would be more interesting to see what Blomkamp had in mind before he discussed it with Miss Weaver!

Give us a Movie set after Alien 3 where the Company or another Company go back to LV-426 and Unearth the Derelict, conduct Experiments and give us 1-2 more ALIENY movies that DONT effect Canon, but ultimately at the End would explain why the USM corp in Alien Resurrection have decided to Clone Ripley as the only Source of the Xenomorph.

BigDave

Jan-02-2018 12:26 AM

I will now Tackle Ridley Scott...

I think we cant leave the Franchise in Limbo, they have to carry on with what happens after Alien Covenant, this does not mean we have to directly have a Sequel, it could BY-PASS a 10-15 year period after Alien Covenant, it could even Show us the AFTERMATH and Show that DAVID does not Create the Original Xenomorph, but when looking at how David Re-Created his own Version we have more clues to show us maybe what happened to the Derelict/Space Jockey.

What i mean is we CANT leave it as it is... where we have to ponder, OK so somehow Davids Creation gets Evolved and ends up on LV-426 or Ponder, OK i guess with no more prequels we cant Guarantee David created the Xenomorph from ALIEN   nope.... THEY HAVE TO give us a movie set prior to ALIEN that shows the Outcome of Davids Trip with the Covenant Ship and then provide us with enough Clues to either, SHOW/ALLOW us to Determine if Davids Creation becomes the Cargo on the Derelict or NOT

Ridley Scotts comments about Star Wars the Last Jedi do not HELP his situation because Disney could see this as a sign of RS being Egotistical and being a Obstacle to any Plans/Changes that Disney may have...  RS is basically saying HE WANTS TO MAKE HIS MOVIES the Way he wants and wont give TWO Hoots what Disney want.

Ridley Scott in the same Interview has shown how he feels he can get Movies Shot Fast.. and i feel here lies a Problem that we have seen in his Movies with the odd lapse that effects certain things due to simply RUSHING something...  taking a Quick Route...  One of these for Example was the Engineers in Prometheus not appearing as the 10ft beings intended.  And maybe attributing to the look of the Planet 4 Engineers.

So i worry RS has shot himself in the FOOT a bit... and with the Craze that we seem to get from Fanboys regarding Blomkamps Alien 5 i think its more likely we could see a ALIEN 5 with Ripley and Queens and i bet if Cameron works on the Project too, it would attract the Fans in masses and potentially make Disney a decent Return.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-02-2018 1:00 AM

Honestly I don't care that much about any of them. Ridley's movie would probably be some David crap unless some change is miraculously done which could happen but I doubt it and Blomkamp's would be like another Ripley movie, something that they should have stopped after Alien 3. Ignoring it is a big reason for me to not want Blomkamp's movie since Alien 3 is my favorite in the franchise and a good conclusion to the Ripley saga despite what Sigourney might say. Maybe it is time to let both Alien and Star Wars die (franchises where the recent movie in respective franchise was a failure). This is unfortunate that I got to say it since I like a lot of things in the franchises but they are not doing very well at the moment as far as quality is concerned. Of course they can be saved but then some drastic changes got to be done.

Blomkamp's movie would probably repeat a lot of things (Ripley, Xenos, guns, marines or something close to it etcetera). Some people might like that repetition but I think that it is time to move forward but keep a closer connection to the Xeno and get characters that we care for. Let me add that having Xenos don't make a movie good, we have AC and AR to prove that. The mental image of a Ripley in her 80's with a power-loader for retired people makes me LMAO.

Scott had an interesting idea about the Engineers but got it totally wrong when he went on the AI track. He has some interesting ideas but he doesn't seem to be able to write scripts. To me AC is almost at the same level as AR which I am sorry to say but that is how I look at it.

I don't care for another David movie and Ripley is over. The Engineers are interesting but they got to get them right and I also like the idea of the black goo. No way, I will not accept that David created the Xeno, that is so lame so I don't know what to say other than maybe F that.

The Xeno should have a bigger connection to the Engineers since they look more like the SJ compared to David. Unfortunately I guess that it will be bad as long as they let Scott affect the story.

IRaptus is right about the Deacon as a fan-service but I liked it since it made Prometheus having a clearer connection to the other Alien movies. The Neomorph could be interesting, I think that could be better than the Xeno which we have seen 100 times anyways. One thing that the prequels have done right this far is the new monsters but unfortunately the bad things have a bigger impact on me than the good parts (lame characters and too much about the robots). When important parts are handled in a bad way then the less important things even though they are more and handled better become less interesting so the movie falls apart.

More of the Engineers, less of David please. He had a huge role in Alien Covenant so to reduce his role from that level wouldn't be too difficult. Keep him in the background but let him have an important part of the story if possible but don't feature him in almost every scene.

Michelle is right in her three point list and yes both Prometheus and AC have weak characters so they made the same mistake again.

Perhaps if they would have had better Xeno connections in Prometheus they wouldn't have needed to do that David thing.

 

Joylitt: He didn't mention anything about an interesting story of characters either. It seemed to be mostly about the money. Maybe he mentioned that but that they didn't print it in the article. What's the point of coming under budget if the story is crap? Who would be interested in watching it then?

Michelle: It wasn't satisfying at all, it was about robots and a mad robot that wants to rule the galaxy sort of. To me it was just another disappointing Alien movie like AVP and AR. Only Oram was written alright among the humans. Yeah the Xeno was only thrown in there because the studio eventually told him to do so. Scott only cared about the robots but I don't care about them. Keep the robots in the background and focus on getting well-written human characters that carry the story for the audience, that would make it interesting. Frankly speaking the direction that the franchise is taking now is shit. My reason for not watching BR 2049 was that it was:

1. Too long (about 2,5 – 3 hours I believe?)
2. About androids and I got so tired of that after watching AC so I thought “well if that is the case then F it, I won't support that movie”
3. A boring topic combined with a run-time that is too long is hardly a recipe for a movie that is a hit so I can see why it flopped. Like I said before I hope that Scott will learn something from it and from AC as well about giving too much space to the androids but he seems too stubborn. If the next movie will be an AI movie disguised as an alien movie, well there are always other ones that I can watch.

Nope, keep it about the human psyche or else I won't bother to watch it.

BigDave

Jan-02-2018 1:02 AM

I think Blomkamp is young and hungry, and it is a Dog Eats Dog World.... while he would have respect for Ridley Scott, Blomkamp's release of those Concepts are to Re-ignite his Alien 5 Project, he is a MASSIVE ALIENS Fan, and a HUGE Miss Weaver Fan.   You can bet he is disappointed he could not have made his ALIEN 5 i think he knows there is a potential to make $$$$ from the Massive ALIENS Fanboys, and you cant blame him for wanting to Tease more of his Project now Disney OWN FOX and in hindsight of the Disappointment that Alien Covenant was.

The BIGGEST thing to look at now would be DISNEY, they are going to look at what they think its MARKETABLE and what can make some MONEY from Merchandise and Toys and so a more ALIEN Flick like Blomkamps idea would be more up their Street....

I think Disney would also think Blomkamp would be willing to change/add things that Disney would want, as Blomkamp would just be so GLAD to be given a Chance... so Disney could feel RS could be a bit more Stubborn to deal with.   I think a DECIDING Factor could be WHEN/WHAT James Cameron has to say, if he came out in Support of Blomkamps Alien 5 and even said he would like to work with him on the Project, i think Disney would be more likely to BACK a Project by those TWO.

I WILL NOW... Look at some Options as far as a ALIEN movie where we could bring in Miss Weaver or Mr Biehn.

Is ALIEN Isolation Canon?  This is a good thing to debate, but its a Game as so we cant take it as 100% Canon, but we need to remember that AMANDA RIPLEY does exist....  She  had passed away while Ripley was Floating through Space for 50 years.

This is the Official Image we have as 100% Canon to what Amanda was supposed to look like, and she does look a lot like her MOTHER and so this means we could have a ALIEN movie set after ALIEN but prior to ALIENS where Miss Weaver could play Amanda and apply some make up etc to make her appear a bit different.   They could give us a Plot set between 2137 when Alien Isolation had taken place, and 2177 when she had passed away.    Amanda Ripley had passed away Aged 65

And so we could do a Movie that is a Sequel to ALIEN Isolation, where the Company Once again obtain a Xenomorph or even Obtain the Derelict and have Amanda become involved to try and Prevent the Company from Exploiting the Xenomorph...   This could be set in the year 2157 and cover the set up of Hadleys Hope, as far as the Agenda behind it.  Which means Miss Weaver would have to play someone in their mid 40's so this may not work...  But then they could have it set in the year 2167 or up to 10 years latter

Where we could see a Plot that reveals the Sinister Agenda of the Company, would bring in a old Amanda Ripley, and either END or set up for a sequel with the Death of Amanda and Cover up the Company has made about the History of Amanda to Ripley.   A movie that would also acknowledge the events of Alien Isolation.

The other alternative could be to not use Miss Weaver but bring back Michael Biehn as he would be cheaper, and bring some Nostalgia, and give him a Character of either being the Father of Hicks, the Brother of Hicks, or even the Son of Hicks...   which ever you choose he would play a Late 50's or early 60's Man.  Depending on what connection he has to Hicks, would give us the Time-Frame a Movie is set, and explore what role he could play, he could be a Scientist, a Pilot, or a Company Man, but something that would allow him to be connected to a Movie that would have a reason to involve Xenomorphs... maybe he wants to investigate what happened to Hicks etc.

I dont think doing any of these where we introduce Biehn and Weaver back in the same movie to both play Relations to Hicks and Ripley would work... but going with ONE of them could..   Then Blomkamps Alien 5 could work, i just think IF it is a bit of a HIT we would see sequels and sequels and then if this is a Sucsess, i FEAR Disney would then Re-Boot  i.e offer a Alternative Prequel Universe, where down the line for masses of Fans Alien 3, Alien R, Prometheus and Alien Covenant SIMPLY never HAPPENED.

ignorantGuy

Jan-02-2018 1:18 AM

BigDave

I would gladly take an alternative sequel to Prometheus, but that will never happen.

BigDave

Jan-02-2018 1:27 AM

Good points Thoughts_Dreams i think the Problem we have is the Prequels have opened up more revenues to explore, and AC kind of close to the door on them a bit,  Prior to the Prequels it was Ripley and Xenomorphs, the Companies Agenda also being a sub-plot, the AI being just a Character and not anything the Plots Revolved around much.

Some Fans disliked the Engineers ARC, some Fans dislike the David ARC, but some Fans also dislike the Camerons Bug Hunt and Queen, i think Disney have to look in Retrospect at what disappointed fans with Alien Covenant, and this is something thats not easy to ANSWER, some may feel the Engineers were brushed under the Carpet, some wanted to follow Shaw and the Philosophy,  But some fans were Disappointed we did not see more of the Xenomorph, and still no REAL Answers to the Derelict...    But i feel the Disappointment that seems to keep re-occurring more with a higher % of complaints is the CHANGE of Direction of the Space Jockey Event being something more RECENT but bigger than this is how the Xenomorph is now a MAD ROBOTS Creation.

They could still RUN with this IDEA and RS feels its Interesting....  But then they could CHANGE it so that we see David has simply Re-Created the Xenomorph and his Creation does not end up on the Derelict... OR they could have it that the Engineers or Some other Race connected, take DAVIDS Creation and EVOLVE it.

THIS ^^^^^ Fits more with the whole Engineers ARC, we are shown they are Genetic Gardeners, and what is the Purpose of this?  We are shown the THEME of Creation, which applies to DAVID too, you see after Weylands Death, the Merger Between Weyland and Yutani have taken Weylands David and Evolved him into the WALTER models.   So a good reason for Creation and Experimenting is EVOLVING and PERFECTING something.

Prometheus showed us the Engineers had been creating and experimenting with STUFF that links to the Xenomorph DNA, The Mural a sign of Worship of some Deacon/Xenomorph Organism.. Is it a GOD? I dont think so, i think its a SIGN of the Engineers Encountering and Evolving Something or Creating Something that they deemed to be PERFECT or hold in HIGH Regard...     DAVID has taken the Genetic Makeup of what these Engineers HELD in such high Regard and Created something from it, Evolved Something From It... PERFECTED something from it.

So you could easily see the Reason for the Mural as far as the Engineers being something they worked to achieve and were PROUD of... so we can easily see if the Engineers (or Hierarchy) Discover that Mankind has not only Created its OWN Lifeform be it AI, but that Mankinds Creation in DAVID is more Perfect than the Engineers Creation of Mankind.   And thus when the Engineers or whoever, discover that this DAVID has taken the Engineers work connected to LV-223 and EVOLVED it to Create his XENOMORPHS these beings could be very INTERESTED in what David has ACHIEVED and so following a Creation Theme and Genetic Engineering, the Engineers or Hierarchy could well see Davids Work as a Masterpeice and then attempt to EVOLVE it Further to their HUBRIS that leads to the Space Jockey Event.

THIS ^^^^ I feel has to be the route to take, it keeps Davids Role as important, but it also means without the Engineers Experiments on LV-223 then David would never had created his Xenomorph, and it then allows us to be shown the Engineers then Evolve and Perfect Davids Creation, thus meaning all David had done was the Middle Part....  The Deacon DNA, that David turned to his Xenomorph, then gets Evolved by the Engineers or Hierarchy to become the 1979 Xenomorph.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-02-2018 5:23 AM

Big Dave:

I only consider movies to be canon, everything else is fiction. As far as what happened I think that it is alright to keep Prometheus and Alien 3 as cannon. Prometheus was alright and Alien 3 was a good way to close the Ripley story. By the way if they take A3 out of the official time-line I would be disappointed.

To me they could erase the whole Alien Covenant thing and write another movie that would follow what happened  after Prometheus. AC is a disappointment so erasing that story would not be a problem to me.

Yup they reduced the prequels to be about David, that is a shame since there is so much else to explore in the franchise.

Having a story about the Engineers, their relation to the Xeno and that was alright it is just that they didn't do it right. Hopefully they can change this with the next movie but we will see. Making it the David story annoys me more than reducing the Engineers but to make it more about the Engineers you got to cut down the importance and screen-time of David because I feel that I have had enough of that at least is such a big portion that we have seen him this far. If Ridley likes the David character then fine for him but you also got to think about the audience and how they have responded this far.

Making the Derelict younger is not a big problem for me. Sure it is a small disappointment but my biggest dislike (except for the failed human characters) is that David is the creator of the Xeno. There is no way that it is a satisfying answer, the only reason for this mistake is the over the top interest that Scott has in Fassbender and David, I doubt that there is another explanation for it.

"But then they could CHANGE it so that we see David has simply Re-Created the Xenomorph and his Creation does not end up on the Derelict... OR they could have it that the Engineers or Some other Race connected, take DAVIDS Creation and EVOLVE it."

This, but that depends if they care about that fans or not. If they would make the Xeno a creation of David, it would almost feel as useless as the killing of Luke, not exactly that much but at least it would be a big disappointment. Killing Luke killed Star Wars and making David responsible for making the Xeno would ruin a lot of the alien franchise, that is what I am trying to say. Two franchises that are about to go down the toilet and there is not much time between them, I never thought that I would witness that.

The mural makes sense the way you put it but I wonder if they wold make any reference to it in the coming movie? I would like that in some way since it makes sense.

I would rather see this but I am afraid that Scott cares too much about David too much.

ignorantGuy

Jan-02-2018 5:34 AM

Thoughts_Dreams

Resident Evil: The Fassbender chronicles live ! Yes it is Paul WS Anderson joke.

Zogar

Jan-02-2018 6:32 AM

I agree that Disney will follow the money and invest in Alien 5. They did it with Star Wars as The Force awakens follows that same beats as A New Hope and has most of the original cast. So it looks like they will take on Blomkamp's ideas. To bring the Aliens cast back, they could go the route of some organisation (possibly those that know what happened on the Origa 6, if Daniels or someone else escaped) boarding the Sulaco and replacing Ripley, Hicks and Newt with exact copies (perfect clones) created from engineer technology (they have stolen). The story could continue then about 30 years later in another part of the galaxy where this organisation are tracking anything alien or engineer related and preventing any outbreaks that could be caused by Weyland Yutani's meddling. 

I think it would be good to use the engineer technology further as it could be a good plot device to further the story. It seems that the whole Alien universe is a battle between AI and humanity. There is an android in every movie that has sinister motives in most of them. It also looks like Weyland Yutani is run by AI, possibly David's code or undetectable virus and is using the companies greed as a catalyst to destroy humanity. The aliens are AI's saviour as the perfect organism. 

I think the universe needs to be expanded with bigger players and the prequels should be used to set these players up. We need to see the humans that know the sinister truth and have stolen engineer technology to fight back, the engineers that are seeking out David to destroy him and like you said BigDave to carry out the last step in perfecting the Alien. 

Again I suspect Disney will go with nostalgia to make the franchise profitable again. Newt will carry the torch on from Ripley. If this is successful Disney will go ahead with completing the prequels to link to Alien 1979. If Scott is asked to direct, he will have to play ball and realize that he isn't running the show or making the big decisions. He should not be allowed screw with the script and realize he is telling a section of the Alien story not the entire thing. That's what made the Marvel universe so successful, different directors telling each story to add to the whole. If he doesn't just direct he could be fired just like what we have learned from the Han Solo movie, Disney don't take any shit and don't bend to egos. Scott needs to learn that the Alien universe is bigger than him, he needs to keep his ego in check and let others play in the sandbox. 

Critters5

Jan-02-2018 7:36 AM

David interesting idea. But if the Engineers would be so interested in David, why did one of them pull his head off in disgust? 

dk

Jan-02-2018 11:19 AM

BigDave I have always supported the Amanda Ripley/Isolation route since it has a very strong story and has a legitimate reason to exist. I had not considered your idea of Weaver actually playing as Amanda- Genius idea!! 

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-02-2018 12:14 PM

Zogar:

"If Scott is asked to direct, he will have to play ball and realize that he isn't running the show or making the big decisions. He should not be allowed screw with the script and realize he is telling a section of the Alien story not the entire thing."

This, I think that Scott is good at the visuals and to build landscapes but he seems to be crappy at writing stories. There was a podcast at either AVP-galaxy or at the Perfect organism podcast where they said that Scott is not a writer but more of a visualist, I think that fits well in the description. It seems that when he is trying to interfere with the writing we get dumb ideas like David being responsible for the Xeno. Nope, let him direct but keep him far from anything that has got to do with the script otherwise we will get another movie that is 70% dedicated to David (yuck!).

Zogar

Jan-02-2018 1:40 PM

@thought_dreams True, his visuals are beautiful. 

Batchpool

Jan-02-2018 2:37 PM

@ Big Dave

“My other Concern is Miss Weaver, as it appears Blomkamps Alien 5 did not directly replace Alien 3 at all, and there was NO Ripley...  until he discussed it with Miss Weaver.”

In the link I have provided (Timeline 23:47) Blomkamp confirms what you have said.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YpX6MumIr8

I just wonder who really would be in the driving seat of an Alien V movie, and I wonder if Neill was coerced into sharing “his” so called vision with pressure from Weaver.

 

Personally I think there has been something severely overlooked. Alien and Aliens have been the most successful movies of the franchise because of they shared a common element. They both had cats. Put a cat into the background story and that will alter everything.

ignorantGuy

Jan-02-2018 9:45 PM

Thoughts_Dreams

And other 29% to other Fassbender roles.

Timmy the ultramorph

Jan-02-2018 11:43 PM

I am ridley scotts side here. the original 3 alien movies are in my opinion a perfect trilogy that should not be messed with. ressurection was sort of like a spin off branching of of that main centeral 3 movie tmeline. so are the prequels. this is how it should stay. 3 core movies with other movies branching of of them. sort of like starwars. the saga movies and then the spin offs( rouge one, han solo). if blomcamp replaces alien 3, it will seriously mess up a timeline that has bean well established and wil also considerably shrink the universe.(without alien 3 there is no dna reflex trait witch means all xenomorphs walk on 2 legs and look humanoid no matter what the host is) also, in defence of ridley scotts alien prequel: we honestly nead some sort of closure. there is 2 face huggers a mad android and 2000 sleeping colonists all headed tword the engineers homeworld. if people cant make a decent script with that, i really dont know what they would nead. we would also get to see more of the engineers and  possibly engineer bred xenomroph, could also clear up the majot missconception that david created the xenomrohps to the genreal public and explain some of the things leading up to alien. there can still be some ambiguity but if the whole point of the prequels is to explain were the space jockey came from and it never dose that, then it makes prometheous and aline covenant irelivant and disconnected to the rest of the franchise.

BigDave

Jan-03-2018 12:08 AM

"But if the Engineers would be so interested in David, why did one of them pull his head off in disgust?"

This is a good point and its a very ambiguous scene, my point was in regards to maybe which ever beings either created us or gave the order to, and maybe who are above those Engineers, the Mural in Prometheus i always felt was to represent something they had became proud of and worshiped for some other reason than it being a GOD.  I have a extensive theory on this, but part of it i had to wonder if those Engineers could not Procreate anymore then the encounter with/creation of something related to the Xenomorph that would then impregnate a Engineer and in affect allow them to give BIRTH to Life could be seen in high regard by those beings, and i think they experimented on the results and tried to Perfect it, and then Sacrificed it to produce the contents of the Black Goo Vases/Urns...   If these Engineers saw the Mural as being something Perfect they either created or attempted to, then if they came across Davids Evolution of it, i would think they would be very impressed by it.

Going to the reasons for the Engineer ripping Davids head off, its something that is a bit open for debate, because at first the Engineer was very intrigued by David, once he learned he was not Flesh/Blood and a Creation of Man, the Engineer took pity on David but he no doubt was angered by Weyland and chose to use the head of Weylands Creation to destroy the Creator.   The Engineer also no doubt realized that Mankind had created its own Life that was able to use the Engineer Technology and thus this Engineer would know that these AI Synthetics with Mankind could get their hands on and use Engineer Technology/Knowledge and secrets and he simply could not allow this to happen.

The Source i had from Feb 2015 had mentioned that the Engineers (i assume LV-223) are more in common with David than Mankind.  A interesting thought... one i had a few times pondered but i always considered it in the way that the Engineers were a Creation of maybe a higher beings above them... Although i was open to them being Genetically Engineered and thus like Replicants it was something that i was 50/50 with because of other clues and Jon Spaights who had these Engineers as Creators.

However in Retrospect when looking at the Sources Comments, then looking at the Planet 4 Engineers in Alien Covenant and how Ridley Scott called them the ORIGINAL Engineers, what does this mean for those LV-223 Engineers?   Could this be a hint that YES the LV-223 Engineers are a Genetically Engineered Superior Slave Race created by those Planet 4 Engineers, are the LV-223 Engineers thus to those Planet 4 Engineers as Replicants and Synthetics are to Mankind?

If this is the case, then indeed The Engineer and David are similar, and it would explain the Engineer taking Pity on David for a moment...   Ridley Scott said the next movie will look at AI, but he also said that Rachael and Batty are also AI from Blade Runner (Nexus-7 and Nexus-6) i find it interesting he mentioned them as AI when talking about his AI plans for the sequel to Alien Covenant.... because Replicants are Genetically Engineered which means unlike David they are Psychically like a Human its only Emotionally where they are different, so you could cut open a dead Replicant and not tell it was not Human, but with Synthetics in Alien Universe you can tell a damaged one is not Human.

Thus the AI element may be more further than a MAD ROBOT David, I am sure Prometheus and Alien Covenant left some unanswered Questions regarding the Engineers, many fans was like WTF! when they saw those Planet 4 beings and would have liked to had explored and was expecting to see more about those Glossy Pale Superior beings in Prometheus...  So maybe we will get to finds out more about these beings, and so who knows if we will get the reveal that the LV-223 Engineers are to the Engineers what the Nexus Replicants are to Mankind.  Which would mean the Source i had was correct.

BigDave

Jan-03-2018 12:30 AM

@Timmy

Exactly....

I think people need to read into Ridley Scotts comments and they can see what he was trying to do, people can blame him for AC, but i think we need to look into his comments over the years more, and he is either bonkers and has Split Personality with TWO different contradicting ideas... or indeed he was keeping FACE value to please FOX.   Ridley Scott had said about Prometheus and how it was not connected to Alien, that the idea was to provide loose connections, but to explore something more than just the Xenomorph and Space Jockey, he felt you had to keep some Mystery and he felt after Prometheus there would be enough for people to make the connection without it having to be Spoon Fed...

Because we need to remember, how do they Spoon Feed the Space Jockey Ancient Event, in a movie and a Time-Line where Humans would maybe not play a large part...  Have the Engineers and LV-223 outbreak explored and what give us Subtitles to the Engineer dialog?  Ridley Scott and FOX felt that exploring the Engineers and other themes was more important,  and a Direct Alien Prequel with Human Explorers in the same Century of Alien would lead to a more Recent Event....   

So Prometheus explored something a bit more different but gave clues, and then RS even in Interviews then explained the whole Space Jockey Event, but keeping it ambiguous only as far as showing us it was connected to LV-223 Outbreak but ambiguous to it being either  a few hundred years prior which means those experiments and Mural etc in Prometheus was a result of Re-Engineering the Eggs, or it being a event a few hundred years after the Outbreak, which means the Xenomorph was a result of those Experiments/Mural

Ridley Scott felt the beast had been done, cooked and decided that directly spoon feeding it back would not be needed and a Prometheus Sequel would start to drift further away from Alien....   BUT THEN... and we need to REMEMBER THIS there was a Backlash with Prometheus, so FOX felt that they needed to actually make the Prequels now Directly give and lead up to the Answers of the Xenomorph, HOW/WHEN/WHY and how they ended up on the Derelict...  but by going a Spoon Fed Route could have altered the Time-Frame to make it a Future event after Prometheus...    So they indeed began this with Alien Covenant, i think RS was disappointed about not being able to EXPLORE the path he wanted...  and he maybe bargained  with FOX to at least allow him to keep David as a important Character and then throw in that Curve-ball about him being the Creator?

You see it appears RS felt the Franchise had Cooked that Beast, Turned a Monster (who he felt was more than a Monster) into a Space Bug, and so i feel RS lost interest in the Xenomorph, and felt the REASONS for Creating the Xenomorph and the whole Space Jockey/Engineer Arc was more important to Follow as this was FRESH it had never been covered before.... not like the Xenomorph that had been cooked with a Apple in his Mouth (so RS had said).

We can clearly see this was what RS was on about, with his comments after AC like how he felt with Prometheus he felt he was ahead of the Game, and once again mentioning the Xenomorph has nearly ran its course, you have to do something different, and about how there is only so much Face Pulling and Chest Bursting you can do.....

We also have to remember the Marketing to AC and RS saying "the fans want Aliens, ill give them F-ing Aliens" to me this shows me RS was not a fan of the route they are taking compared to his Prometheus 2 envision.

The Problem thats upset fans, is the use of the Xenomorph, but maybe RS intended this as a F-U to the Xeno, so he can then be like.... see i gave you Xenomorphs, right in your Face (out of the dark) and did it make a Great Movie.... NOPE!  but who knows if this was what he was doing?

The other Problem was the David creator of the Xenomorph, but this follows the Themes he was setting up with Prometheus, about Creation and Creator would create and his Creation would turn out not as planned become Rebellious and then Sub-Create and how this continues...   so if we are creations by the Engineers, who created them?  I think RS was to explore that the Hierarchy of Creation does not start with the Engineers and the Source i had in Feb 2015 said the Hierarchy of Creation does-not start with the Engineers and it does-not end with David, and thus it appeared we would find out more about the LV-223 Engineers what their role was and who created them.... while also seeing David Create something himself.

But he had to make changes to please Fanboys and make AC and so i think the David Re-Creating something had then been evolved into David actually Creating the Xenomorph...

ignorantGuy

Jan-03-2018 12:33 AM

BigDave

"Psychically like a Human its only Emotionally where they are different" well that is true only for Dick's novel. In Blade Runner, some of them are extra strong, cold resistent and it might be that they have some healing "factor", while emotionally they are very human like (Batty loving Pris, Deckard Rachael, etc...), in other word's as Dick himself put it they are SuperMen. While David looks like a human, eats, has his hair grow, walks like a human (at least in Prometheus, but he stutters in AC), and with the evidence he has no superhuman level strength (easily pushed around by Vickers, his head was easily ripped off by the Engineers, and Ash was not abnormaly strong in the original).

BigDave

Jan-03-2018 9:14 AM

Certainly i did forget to mention that many replicants were Engineered to have greater Physical Characteristics than Humans.

Regarding David and Vickers and the Engineer, with the Engineer we can assume they are Physically very Strong and could easily snap a Synthetics Neck, i would say they could Snap the Neck of a Replicant with just as much ease.  With Vickers i think we need to look at if David was not expecting the push then Vickers only Resistance would be her Strength vs his Weight which if i can remember was 170lb mark.

The Marketing for David did mention he was stronger and faster than a Human, i think on this subject when looking at the Replicants and LV-223 Engineers i think it is possible those LV-223 Engineers were Genetically Engineered to be more Superior  Physically than those found on Planet 4

BigDave

Jan-03-2018 9:22 AM

@

I have to agree to a degree.....  Prometheus did not do as well as expected, Financially it did well, but it had a lot of criticism and FOX had taken a look at this.....    And plans was going forwards with a Prometheus 2 but they had problems working on a Draft, because of the Scope of the Plot.  

 

Then Blomkamp put out his ideas and it started to get the Fanboys who had picked Flaws with Prometheus excited, so FOX looked at the increasing interest in Blomkamps Alien 5, compared to the critics of the route Prometheus was setting up.  And FOX decided that maybe indeed stepping away from the Xenomorph in Prometheus was a mistake in hindsight and so this caused a change of direction with Alien Covenant.

 

Blomkamp did provide some thought for the Fanboys to get excited about, and ultimately its FOX who should have just RAN with Ridley Scotts Plans.

NTFS

Jan-03-2018 12:19 PM

 I would like to see Ridley Scott and Christopher Nolan working together on the next chapter of the Alien saga.

NTFS

Jan-03-2018 2:25 PM

Origae-6

 

NTFS

Jan-03-2018 4:19 PM

Terraforming has failed...

BigDave

Jan-04-2018 3:16 AM

Interesting to say the least, what a bizarre creature.

As far as Origae-6 it will be interesting what this place looks like, i am not sure we will see a world as habitable as Earth, but certainly a place that is very suitable, but in AC they mentioned that Planet 4 seemed to me more suitable than Oriage-6 but i assume Origae-6 is a world that can be terraformed with little or no effort, and i am expecting something between Planet 4 and LV-223 only with a breathable atmosphere... so i expect a world like LV-223 with signs of Plant Life, and Lakes and breathable conditions.

A Primordial kind of place... with landscapes similar to that of some parts of Iceland, Greenland the very North of Scotland etc

BigDave

Jan-04-2018 4:51 AM

I think RS opened up a lot of NEW things to be explored with Prometheus, its a shame that FOX felt that some criticism for Prometheus about how it DID-NOT clearly show us how the Xenomorph was created and HOW/WHEN those Eggs got onto the Derelict.  And also while the Hammerpedes and Deacon and Trilobite are connected to the Xenomorph, the Hammerpede attack on Milburn, the Dr Shaw C-Section did not please as much as a Face Hugger and Chest Buster, and we never saw what the Deacon becomes...

Alien/Aliens showed us Alien Lifeforms killing Humans and the only thing close to this in Prometheus was Zombie/Toxic Avenger Fifield and Angry Engineer.    These types of criticism towards Prometheus by Alien Fans, and the interest and excitement over Blomkamps Alien 5 (because the Fans feared Prometheus 2 would be a lot less Xenomorph and more Angry Engineers).  are what i think caused us to get Logans Alien Covenant instead.

The set up was now to directly cover events that lead over a Alien: Prequel Trilogy to take us to the back door of ALIEN i think we cant leave it as it IS! 

Blomkamps Alien 5 would just be a Resurrected Aliens meets Alien Resurrection Popcorn Fan Service, at the Detrimental affect to maybe the Prequels and Alien 3 and Alien R.... HOWEVER there was some interesting things that was covered.

*Alternative Xenomorph Eggs/Face Huggers.

*Maybe a Egg Morph or similar Scene

*Use of Engineer Tech/Space Suits.

I would bet these was the ideas Blomkamp had prior to speaking to Miss Weaver, before she then maybe made him come up with it would be a GREAT IDEA to use his ideas but Resurrect Ripley, Hicks and Newt as she felt maybe Ripleys Sega that came to a end in ALIEN 3  was not the way she felt it should have gone... despite asking to be killed off because she did not want to make any more ALIEN movies.

I feel Miss Weaver is trying to be Head Cook in the Kitchen and sees a ALTERNATIVE Aliens Sequel, as pleasing some Fans, but also giving the Sega more of a RIPLEY feel and Ultimately a BIG Pay Day for her.

ALIEN 5 must NEVER EVER HAPPEN.

The Prequels MUST be completed and explore the avenues that Prometheus opened up that Alien Covenant had closed off.

BLOMKAMP needs to look at his Original Pre Ripley ideas and look at what other avenues are left open in the Franchise, that dont disregard the Plans for the Prequels or what Prometheus/Alien Covenant had set down..  And that dont disregard ANY Alien movie.

There are still plenty of areas a ALIEN movie can take place....

Alien Resurrection leaves the Door open for a Sequel, and even to do prequels where we have to ask WHY was Ripley the only Source of Xenomorph?

Unless the Prequels Address and clear these up.... we have to ask about What happens and becomes of these by the Time of ALIEN 3

*Origae-6

*Planet 4

*LV-223

Then also ponder, was the Derelict the ONLY Ship with Xenomorph Cargo?

These are all avenues i think Blomkamp should be allowed to have a Stab at making a Story up for, and use some of his Alien 5 ideas...... minus resurrecting Ripley, Hicks and Newt.

ignorantGuy

Jan-04-2018 5:17 AM

BigDave

But many of the general public claim that they saw already chestbursters millions of times already... So how representative are the vocal Aliens fans? Don't they have enough video games and comic books and movies (2)?

I'm with you BigDave that they should have continue to explore the Prometheus avenues, not David 2, not Alien 5, not Alien Disney Reboot.

 

 

BigDave

Jan-04-2018 5:31 AM

This is the Big Question and Problem.... there is a demographic split between fans.. i have not registered on AVPGalaxy but i have looked there now and again, and they for the most part are a fanbase who like the Aliens and even AVP elements of the Franchise (games).   They had some Opinion Polls and a higher Majority are in favor of a Alien 5 over RS Prequels and another Poll shows a even greater Majority liked Alien Covenant compared to Prometheus.

I think RS is correct, there is only so much Face Hugging and Chest Bursting before you need something else.

Disney however will look at what they feel the higher % would want and also what kind of path would attract more higher % of general public, which i think goes more in Favor of a Alieny Disney Franchise rather than a Engineer/Philosophical one.

I think David was used to show us the repeating theme... of when Creating Life, that gains Free-will and becomes Sentient decides they are superior to their creators and then Sub-Create then a whole lot of trouble happens.  Its not so much about David, but showing us what  Sub-Creation can be like when they rise up against the Creator...  and so indeed we see a similarity with David as we do with Lucifer.

Its all very interesting... but has not appealed to the Alien Fanboys..

Maybe when exploring the Space Jockey, they should have had it as some Ancient Alien Race, that is not connected to Mankind, but is either conducting experiments on something they Found (Eggs) or they had Created those Eggs for some Purpose (Weapon) or indeed that they are a Race Created for the Purpose of Procreating those Eggs... 

The whole Space Jockey =  Ancient Humanoids who Predate Mankind and Created Mankind and many other life in the Galaxy, was BOLD opens up a HUGE Scope... but simply bugged some Fans, and became a bit complicated...   and involving David into the similar theme of Creation, was too much for some fans.

NTFS

Jan-04-2018 5:52 AM

Terraforming goes bad on Origae-6.

 

ignorantGuy

Jan-04-2018 5:58 AM

BigDave

The lastest AVPGalaxy poll fluctuates between 51 to 49 % (in favor of Covenant) to 50-50%, but only less than 300 votes (out of which 2 are mine for Prom) so that tells nothing at all.

NTFS

Jan-04-2018 6:12 AM

The desolate landscape of Origae-6.

NTFS

Jan-04-2018 6:20 AM

Plenty of water

 

NTFS

Jan-04-2018 6:22 AM

Ancient statue holds a cup...

ignorantGuy

Jan-04-2018 6:23 AM

NTFS It also holds the head of an alien in his hand.

NTFS

Jan-04-2018 6:25 AM

Terraforming goes bad on Origae-6.

NTFS

Jan-04-2018 6:46 AM

One day after David had thrown one of his embryos into the lake... 

BigDave

Jan-04-2018 2:31 PM

I checked out the poll a few weeks ago mind then it was 55% for AC over Prometheus.

I think indeed its a very split fanbase, and i think its one reason what ever kind of Alien movie is done next will not please all the fans, i think regardless of which route they take it would be lucky to please no more than a 3rd of us due to how different the fanbase is.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-05-2018 1:07 AM

I blame Ridley for making it the David story, he should have carried on with the Engineers if you ask me. The Engineers is an interesting idea but the execution in both Prometheus and AC is flawed. AC would have been better if they explained them a bit more rather than being about David and also make them a threat to humanity. Since Prometheus got criticism about it I sort of understand why they did they way they did but the replacement was worse (David story).

The next movie got to :

1. Get the Engineers right
2. Have better human characters, and
3. Have less David

This is what I want to happen.

The story has got to be bigger than David and make the humans the central piece of it. As far as the screen time of the Xeno is concerned it doesn't have to be featured a lot, it did not in Alien and that worked. Yup the thing with David and creation was kind of boring especially since he had most of the screen-time.

Batchpool: Ha ha! Don't mess with Jonesy.

That idea is fun as hell, they see cats and they run. Maybe that is what the Engineers were running from in the hologram in Prometheus? :D

Interesting pictures NTFS, the one in your post where you write Terraforming goes bad on Origae-6 looks nasty as F.

"Maybe when exploring the Space Jockey, they should have had it as some Ancient Alien Race, that is not connected to Mankind, but is either conducting experiments on something they Found (Eggs) or they had Created those Eggs for some Purpose (Weapon) or indeed that they are a Race Created for the Purpose of Procreating those Eggs..."

That would have been a lot better, I agree. As far as a split fan-base is concerned, to me at least it takes more than a monster and some eggs to make the movie interesting.

Capt Torgo

Jan-05-2018 1:22 AM

Great, I hardly trust either of these cats!  NB's D9 was guided/produced by the last Jedi himself: Peter Jackson, so NB doesn't get much credit IMHO. I want a tight & well planned Alien movie like Rogue One, I find that just a fu*king masterpiece. Or, something more heavy focused on dialog & good characters like "It Comes At Night". Ridders or Neil need a short leash but I favor Scott attempting to redeem himself if he can play ball(make a good profitable film that doesn't have his dirty fingers all over the script). Too bad James Cameron is lost in the wilderness now w 3d smurfs, he had that midas touch at one time. 

BigDave

Jan-05-2018 3:05 AM

I do think a lot of people and especially Fanboys do miss the whole point of the Prequels, the Xenomorph type Monsters did make more of a impact in Alien Engineers but when they started to tackle the Prequels there was a number of Questions...

But first what do we know about the Xenomorph?

*It is a Alien Life-form with a very sinister and interesting Life-Cycle.

*Alien portrayed it as a Stealthy Organism that hunted down the Crew one by one, and Ultimately it was shown as a Organism that would make a Perfect Killing Machine.

*The Directors Cut, added the scenes (Egg Morph) that actually showed the Xenomorph had a purpose of more than just killing people.  It had to use people (and never killed them all) to Procreate it Species.

*Aliens introduced us to a Queen that lays the Eggs and the Xenomorph Warrior who must Protect the Queen and Hive at all costs and scavenge for Hosts to allow for Procreation of their Species.

*The other movies never added nothing to the Xenomorph really, apart from bring home more that the Companies wish to go to what ever extreme to obtain the Xenomorph for mainly a Bio-Weapon.

We never really 100% knew its intention, purpose and certainly not its Origin but we had seen the Organism is Deadly and Procreates and could be used more as a Invasive Species to Eradicate a area of Life Forms.  It could be used as a kind of Bio-Weapon my Mankind.   But we NEVER really had any clear clues to WHY the Space Jockey had those Eggs and WHERE/WHEN did those Eggs come from.

The Space Jockey had them for some reason!

*Did it discover them and was in the process of carrying them to be studied and experimented on?

*Did they create/engineer these Eggs and if so WHY for what Purpose?

*Was there some other Race/Element that created the Eggs and enslaved (or created) the Space Jockey to transport these Eggs and maybe allow for them to Procreate... but WHY?

It is these last set of Questions that the Prequel was to cover, and in doing so it would have to reveal who the Space Jockey Race was and Purpose, WHY was he carrying that Cargo and then  where did those EGGS Originate from.

Ridley Scott prior to the Prequels and indeed even after Alien, had suggested the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon, and the Derelict was a Bio-Weapon Cargo/Transport and a Bomber to a degree.  Which means the Xenomorph Eggs where either.

*A Bio-Weapon Engineered by those Space Jockey but WHY and for use against WHOM?

*A Organism discovered by the Space Jockey that they found was useful as a Bio-Weapon.

*A Organism/Bio-Weapon created by some other Race or means that the Space Jockey was just some being/race that was tasked with Shipping and maybe deploying these on to Worlds?

So regardless the XENOMROPH was a Bio-Weapon or used as a Bio-Weapon, and we had seen nearly everything we need to know about them, apart from WHEN/WHERE was the Created/Originated from?  And WHY?

The Prequels set out to ANSWER the WHEN/WHERE with a few clues to HOW and to begin to tease WHY?

A sequel to Prometheus would most likely and detailed more of the WHY! as it appeared it was the WHY would someone create such a Bio-Weapon as being the most important thing to cover, and so having to see a movie about Xenomorphs and Queens is not really necessary as there is a BIGGER Picture behind those who CREATED it and WHY?

This was what the Set Up regarding the Engineers, Creation, Rebellion, Punishment and Sub-Creating Philosophy and Mythos was to expand upon, within these would be the WHY

But a lot of fans were disappointed about this route, first the Space Jockey was a Humanoid in a Space Suit, then these Humanoids played a role in our Creation and Evolution, The Xenomorph potentially being just a Off-Shoot of some Pesticide/Bio-Weapon created by the Engineers to Protect against and Destroy wayward Creations.   THIS was something a number of fans did not GET/LIKE

It should have been just about showing us HOW the Xenomorph was created and WHEN and then show us those Eggs and how/why and when they was loaded on the Derelict and then show us Xenomorph Carnage.   THIS is what a larger majority of the Fans wanted to see rather than explore the Race behind the Xenomorph and their Motives....    In Context to the Franchise the Xenomorph to the Engineers could be just as much as say the PREDATOR attack Drones, a NUKE or Assault Riffles are for Mankind.   There is more to Mankind than our Weapons, and we can show Drones Bombing and Shooting Enemies, we can show ASSAULT RIFFLES killing enemies.  But is the more IMPORTANT Question WHY?  so WHY create these Weapons for what Purpose, and Mankind has Evolved Warfare over the Thousands of Years, but there is more to Mankind than Weapons and Killing, and its the History, Rivalry and WHY we created Weapons and WHY we had to use them. 

THIS... is what the Prequels Set up, and what the next movie was likely to have done, before FOX gave in to Fanboys Remarks and Excitement about ALIEN 5 and Xenomorphs... and so we got ALIEN COVENANT

The Curveball they threw was by keeping with the Theme of Creation, and seeing Creation not turn out as intended and become Sentient and against its Creator and then this Sub-Creation wishes to Sub-Create as well as themes of Fear/Protection against Creator and Creations by Creating something that would be used to ERADICATE and PROTECT from Wayward Creations, and/or Vengeful/Angry Creators.

Many fans could not understand these Themes, and were not interested in them.... but following these RS and Co... decided in following with the above it would be such a Curve-Ball that DAVID created the Xenomorph, that he PERFECTED and could Control or not loose Control of the Bio-Weapon intended to use against those the ENGINEERS Feared and wanted Destroyed and so its a more Dangerous Idea that the Engineers Failure to Destroy their Wayward Creation, lead to this Creation Sub-Creating DAVID and also then Mankinds Curiosity to seek out its own Creator had led DAVID to discover there was nothing Special about Mankinds Creation and there was no Great Love for us by our Creators.  So David would then realize he is actually Superior, and its only the Engineers Knowledge, Tools and Bio-Weapon that made them Superior Beings and with this POWER David could be as a GOD.

This appears to be what Prometheus Sequels would also cover... but the Alien Covenant Curveball would be "hey WHY NOT have David be the Original Creator of the Xenomorph in Alien, rather than Experiment and Create Similar"

In Hindsight this could be a more Sticky Disappointment in the Eyes of Many Fans, but had Ridley Scott been allowed to do his Prometheus 2 and 3, then we would have had clues to WHY/WHEN and how the Xenomorph was Created Thousands of years ago and show that David now wished to Evolve the Creation and Create his OWN.

But nope... FOX felt Fans needed a More Direct Connection to those Xenomorph Eggs, and due to the Time-Line, and Fans wanting to see Xenomorphs in Real Time vs Humans etc... they had to change the Process of the Creation of the Xenomorph to a Event after PROMETHEUS and with that they deemed it a great idea to make DAVID the Creator.

People may think its about Mad-Robots and David... but its more than that, its not about AI as in Computers.... its about the Evolution of Creation and Created Life, which AI is Synthetic Creation.

Michelle Johnston

Jan-06-2018 10:38 PM

@Thoughts_Dreams

Your remarks about why you where not interested in BR2049.

The movie is not about robots. It is way more enigmatic than that. it is asking questions about what is consciousness. its asking us to think about how you define life, the lines are blurred and in that blurring it has the audacity to make us question how humanity might evolve not an old fashioned stronger better way but in a spiritual way. What is soul ?

It is very important to the discussions about the Prequels because Michael Green polished both BR2049 which lead Harrison Ford into the movie and revised the Jack Paglen script. Prometheus 2 at this point was when the "beast was cooked" and "I'm done with dragons and all that shit". it was to feature multiple Davids who would infect the source of the Engineers power which one can see is echoed in subsequent scripts was mechanical in origin. So the key revelation of P2 was the Engineers creation mythos was they were .....Engineers which was held into John Logan's pre filming script.

If P2 had the focused character development, visionary existential feel of BR2049 it could have been extra ordinary .... but like BR2049 it would have bombed with the millennials.

This leads me to some of the comments left out of the site. It is common knowledge that the rebranding of the sequel into an ALIEN prefix movie was a direct response to substantial parts of the core fan base drooling over Alien 5. If that movie had not been mooted either P2 would have gone ahead or been cancelled.

Ridley Scott and Fox made the mistake of not properly understanding the critique of Prometheus. It was not lack of the Xenomorph it was two things :-

1) It did not make clear the relationship between the events of LV 426 and LV 223 including where the Xenomorph fitted into the evolution of the Alien Pathogen. The movie should have answered some questions and left the wider creation question for P2.

2) It did not deal with the modern need for characters to be seen to behave with perfect vision and for their actions to always be explained. 

In the case of T & D he is unusual in that he didn't like the flawed questing Shaw character whereas for me she like K in BR2049 was the perfect mediation of our questions about creation.   

ignorantGuy

Jan-07-2018 2:52 AM

Michelle Johnston

I am really glad that you liked BR49, but I guess that the problem of it being too long contributed to it's flop (Scott clearly said that it should have been shorter). And why use expensive gimmicks such as 3D, when it is already dying? And why to bring back Ford in the first place (and that contrived serial number on replicants bone why did they need the VK test in the first movie)? They easily could have reduced the cost and the quality would have remained the same.

And if they gone as originally planned with P2 they could have saved money on actors (Franco cameo), thus eliminating cliched deaths, poking the nose in stuff and other things which I don't think millennials are really into. With a good script and well rounded story they could made as much as with an Alien title. But they wanted more money and a endless stream of sequels (something akin to modern comic book movies).

So I don't think millennials are to blame her, but the Director who sees himself first a business man than an artist. 

BigDave

Jan-07-2018 3:18 AM

At the Crux of it all Michelle i can totally agree with those TWO points regarding Prometheus.

I feel when they was working to a Alien Franchise Prequel, which Prometheus was as far as being set in the same Universe and a Prequel, there were fans who expected it would be a literal Prequel and thus a ALIEN movie

A Alien Prequel movie thus, must show us how the Xenomorph was created (which Prometheus had clues, just too vague)  and a Alien Prequel must have some relation to the Alien Franchise which was always the threat of Alien Organisms towards Human Characters and a Selfish Interest in the Organism by the Company.   Prometheus did not quite deliver on these to the level Alien Fans expected.

This lead to another problem that indeed there was simply not enough Alien Encounters, i dont think its so much there was NO Xenomorph, i think Fans would have accepted not seeing a Alien Xenomorph, but they would have liked to have seen similar encounters with Humans..   Alien Engineers had a number of Humans vs Alien Organism scenes, and Alien Covenant did the same with the Neomorph.. I think Prometheus just lacked any of this and sadly Zombie Fifield and Angry Engineer could not replace having something more Alien looking attacking the Crew.

Yes some fans may have wanted actual Xenomorphs and Queens but i think this was a lower % like maybe 25% mark who would have wanted to see actual Xenomorphs, Eggs etc... and i think by a similar % some fans may have expected the movie to DIRECTLY lead to or begin to lead to ALIEN and show us those Eggs on the Derelict.

Prometheus however decided to loosely explore the Engineers (Space Jockey) that would open up for a more in depth expansion towards them, while giving subtle hints to the Xeno-Strain but hoping this would be enough to then be able to move away from showing HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph that ended up on the Derelict was created/obtained and ended up on LV-426

The Engineers/Creators and Creation theme was something they was setting up more, which was interesting but it maybe does not appeal to every ALIEN Fan, Prometheus was setting up to be a Alien Franchise movie series but not exactly a ALIEN movie franchise as far as to connect directly to the events of ALIEN

I think a number of fans did not get/understand or even were interested in these Creation Themes... the Broad Idea basically is asking a few Questions about Mankind.

*We are a Machine, a Biological one, our Brains are like a Advanced Computer.  And so RS was touching upon if we created a Synthetic Humanoid with a Advanced Computer Brain, that then can start to think for itself, see itself as more than just a Machine,  then we have to ask what makes Biological Humanoids and Synthetic Different?    THE SOUL?

What is a Soul?

*Something we can use to judge the Moral Compass of a being, someone who is kind and generous has a Good Soul, someone Evil and Selfish has a Wicked Soul?

*Something that is used to explain how Spiritually connected a person is, by this not in someone who follows a faith, but someone who has a Spiritual Soul, who looks at the calm and good of all things.

*The Memories and Experiences of a Person what makes us who we are and unique.

If a SOUL is any of these, then a AI could have a Soul as such...   especially if when we HUMANS Die, we are No More, our Soul/Spirit does not go onto a higher plane of existence, we are just GONE! and if this is the TRUTH then Mankind has NO SOUL.... but a AI actually could because they could carry on their Soul to another Body/System.

So when we look at a SOUL what RS was pondering is not just about that a SOUL is something a Human has that is our Spirit that when we die means we go to Heaven/Paradise to live FOREVER and so RS was not suggesting this, what he was doing was giving us some ideas that make us have to THINK long and HARD about if there is such a thing as a SOUL in that context or if a SOUL is only in context to the points i raised above and if so, then a AI can possess that kind of Soul.

But it was also about Creation, and teasing the idea that we have about Gods and Divine Creation could actually be far from the truth, by revealing our Creators are no more than Ancient Humanoids and it was the whole tackling the subject of why beings would Create Mankind, and then why they would want to destroy us and this is followed through with having to ask the same thing for why we created Synthetics and then why in Hindsight this could be a bad bad thing.

The story of Mankind ==>  David is thus echoed from Engineers ==>  Humans and likely who ever created the Engineers too. 

It was also about touching on the theme, that playing God and Sub-creating or even Genetically Evolving yourself rather than just accept who you are naturally and be happy with that... but when a being decides to Sub-create we can see this could lead to a big HUBRIS and so RS was tackling a Theme about Creators, Creating Life that is intended to not be as equal to the Creator but then the Creations becoming aware and seeing and asking, why should we be treated any different to our Creators.

But some think that the whole Angle was to just explore Robots... when its about Creation and maybe AI being just a term for Artificially Created, and so not created via Sexual Reproduction, or by the natural Evolution over Millions of years...   And so to a degree Mankind in Prometheus are a form of AI to the point that we was Artificially Created via the Sacrificial Scene and then Genetically Manipulated over time rather than something that happened as a Natural Evolution from Micro-Organisms.

The difference being Humans could Procreate, Synthetics Could not... and i think they could have been exploring this with showing us those Planet 4 Engineers and then LV-223 Engineers which may show us those LV-223 Engineers can not procreate and maybe are after all Biological DAVIDS

Sadly while all of this is interesting.... for ALIEN fans some of them feel it detracts away from the Xenomorph and Alien Franchise without knowing that Prometheus was to set up a different NONE Xenomorph Franchise within the same Universe.   I can see some Star Wars fans maybe likewise complain about the Han-Solo movie if it does not have anything to do with Jedi/Force...

BigDave

Jan-07-2018 3:26 AM

"So I don't think millennials are to blame her, but the Director who sees himself first a business man than an artist."

From my understanding... RS had planned to explore 2 more movies after Prometheus that would have not directly connected to Alien, but certainly would have revealed the Agenda for the events around LV-223.   I think FOX had felt in hindsight steering away from the Xenomorph was a mistake and that a Alien Franchise movie needs to be about Humans encountering Horrific Alien Monsters.

It was about Money $$$$ and i think FOX may have felt that a actual Alieny movie should make more money $$$$   a lot of Fans however were interested in the NONE Xenomorph elements opened up by Prometheus.

In hindsight Prometheus should have been more Alieny.... so that a sequel could steer away from the Alieny things,  and would allow FOX to introduce another movie set on LV-223 that could be even more Alieny with another movie that would steer away and be about the Philosophy and Engineers.

FOX just could not risk Funding TWO movies like this, and so when they saw some criticism at Prometheus and interest in ALIEN 5, they felt that actually a Alieny Prequel Franchise is what would make more $$$$

I think i need to dig up any work i did on a Prometheus Remake, well Edit as my changes actually gave a bit more of a Alieny movie, and hinted at the clues to ALIEN a little more.   My changes however would have made Prometheus a extra 25-30 min longer.

ignorantGuy

Jan-07-2018 3:38 AM

BigDave

"FOX just could not risk Funding TWO movies like this", yes, however they funded 200 mil $ for Cameron's Alita, a film about a robot Girl with movies like Ghost in the Shell and BR49 making less than 300 mil world-wide. I'm very interested how this unfolds...

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-07-2018 4:43 AM

Big Dave

I totally understand the point of exploring the SJ and the origin of the Xeno. These ideas are interesting but they have not been handled well.

Sure it could be interesting to get an idea of why the SJ had the eggs but now it is more about a mad robot than the SJ, which is a shame. The idea of using the eggs for some purpose is all fine but it got to be handled in a way that makes sense and that is interesting. Unfortunately it is indirectly caused by mankind since they developed David and David made at least one egg to use at humans. One problem is that at least one example of the Xeno is linked to humans and that there is too much focus on robots. My wish is that the Xeno should be more alien, less connected to human activity. There are probably many ways to make that more interesting than what they did in AC.

As far as the Xeno being a bio-weapon, this could be fixed by making the Engineers more lethal, powerful, something like that but it all depends on if they get them right. Maybe they could be a cast lower then the SJ like cousins. If they go that route they could save some mystery of the SJ after the prequels are done.

My problem is that they seems to suggest that David created the original Xeno. I hope that they will change it so he just made his own version because if they continue with the idea tat he made it then it becomes less interesting rather than letting it be something that another life-form did.

I sort of understood the themes but they were not very interesting. They should have written other things to the story.

"People may think its about Mad-Robots and David... but its more than that..."

Whatever their intentions are, that is how it comes off at the screen and they have failed if so at least with AC. Nope, they got to make it better then next time, have better human characters and less about the themes. Themes do not mean anything to me if there are no humans to identify with.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-07-2018 4:53 AM

Michelle

The connection between LV 223 and 426 should have been made better, I agree. Unfortunately this was too vague or they never thought about it that much or they left out too much from the script in what became the movie.

I am not sure if it is unusual to dislike Shaw since many have a problem with the characters in Prometheus. This means that many people might have a problem with Shaw as well. Since I have not watched BR2049 I can not comment on K.

One thing that I liked about Prometheus was the black goo but they should have handled it a bit better but still it was alright. I think that this is what you mean when you say the alien pathogen.

Michelle Johnston

Jan-07-2018 6:04 AM

@red0guy

Over the two days following New Year I went to see Imperium I and II at Stratford on Avon it is six stories framed into two three hour slots. It was riveting and held my attention from start to finish. I only mention that because it never occurred to me that BR2049 was to long but I am perfectly happy to accept that maybe a reason for it bombing. 

I like your point about saving money on characters. When something I am invested in fails (The Hobbit Movies and AC) when I am watching a successful movie I look for the differences not my preferences. In a sense I do not have a preference I simply want to be engaged. With the Hobbit the story telling values were incredibly weak with AC their were to many characters as well as it being a straight riff of Alien. The problem with Covenant is it was trying to set up the next movie otherwise a scout ship following the trail of say Davids internal beacon (which he is not aware of) could have found Paradise in double quick time. The audience then are engaged in a real thriller as we watch the movie through the scouts eyes and discover much more about Paradise pre David and the scouts are a worthy opponent of the god damn robot. The point of the movie would have been to discover the answers to Shaw's questions (why create and then destroy us) and would have left room for a much more sophisticated back story to David/Shaw which could have been told in flashback. It could also have discovered that the Alien Life Cycle was created out of hubris by the Engineers as an attempt to replace their role as acolyte and would have explained the Paradise Lost arc of LV223 and the ruination of Paradise, as well as leave the jockey contemporaneous with the LV223 break out but would represent some special element of the story. The Egg cargo is more religious and ritual than the canister cargo.

The end would have been very dark with the scouts transmitting the location of the derelict to the main frame and then being overcome by David who "canisters them" so a really intimate example of the pathogen when released airborne. Daivd like K can be left enigmatic but his "death" represents redemption trying to stop W-Y his fathers company. The tension in the film would be that David is redeemed but you are never sure rather than what we received. His redemption being triggered as an extension of his obvious real love for Shaw in the Crossing and her death through the long term effects of the infection generated by Charlie making love to her.   

But Ridley wants his series of sequels ... which seem unlikely to be made now. 

 

ignorantGuy

Jan-07-2018 7:16 AM

Michelle Johnston

What you propose there, David as tragic hero/anti-hero is way better than the deranged robot without no particular reason to hate humanity other than he is better. Why even change the villain? And the sequel would have led to where exactly?

Well thanks for the other example (The Hobbit Trilogy, a 300 pages book turned into 8 hours of film, what an achievement ) of useless technology (48 frame/sec footage) and characters(Legolas, elf-lady, and Legolas' orc nemesis). 

Michelle Johnston

Jan-07-2018 1:00 PM

@red0guy

I just ran that off very quickly to show what would happen if a small compliment of scouts replaced the Covenant crew. We would have much story with much more drama. 

The ending would be enigmatic indicating that David has "died" we have made the link with Alien (the message to mother which leads to the rerouting of the Nostromo) and most importantly all the questions of Prometheus are answered but lost in the world it inhabits.

The sequel if the audience were up for it would be the return of the Tear Drop ship to Paradise a  deepening of the mythos and David revived as a "soul" finding out the purpose of the hierarchy and their relationship with and view of the Engineers. As David shared consciousness with both Weyland and Shaw on the journey to LV223 in Prometheus that sci fi element could be used to establish them in the hierarchies reality. A kind of extension of the use of Eleanor Arroway's father in contact where they are used as mediation.  

    

 

BigDave

Jan-08-2018 3:49 AM

Indeed Michelle i can see where you are going, and to a extent it appears these are some of the things that was being set up for,  Prometheus ended up NOT being a Alien Prequel not in the Literal Sense at all, it was to be a expanded universe story that would then have sequels that would steer away from Alien,  and Prometheus was there to show some clues to ALIEN but they was just not Spoon Fed enough for people to understands.

RS believed the WHY and so the Motives are more important than the actual Xenomorph.

I know a lot of people had problems with David and understanding him in AC, i think there was some flaws in how he was written,  but a lot of complaints came that he was a Crazy Sexually Confused Robot. But all along the clues to his Psychological Well being are/have been there in Prometheus and the Marketing and Alien Covenant to a degree too.

The Teaser Trailer, was telling us much more than people managed to read into

AURORA Nature Boy

This song tells Davids Arc, when we combine it with the Prometheus Viral, the interaction with Weyland in Prometheus and Alien Covenant, the treatment by the Humans (Holloway) then Dr Shaw (Theatrical) and the Crossing Prologue, when we look at all of these, and look at his attack on Daniels, and then finally when David (Walter) told Daniels IF WE ARE KIND it would be a KIND WORLD

This IMO sets up Davids Arc, and when we look at RS comments on David some of the latter ones on the sequel, "what kind of a World would David Create/Build" knowing David is off to Origae-6 with all those Colonist...   If he intends to turn them into Aliens etc then this movie would be a ALIENY movie but RS said the focus is less on Xenomorph but would explore AI and what a AI would create.

I see this as a set up to David giving those Colonist a 2nd Chance, David acting as GOD/Noah and this Covenant ship the Ark..... but it will be some events that trigger Davids Paradise to become a Hell, either a returning Company Ship who wishes to have Davids Creations...  Or some Rebellious Act by the Colonist that lead David to have to Punish them... or pure Curiosity by the Colonist to discover a forbidden place of Davids secrets.

This is how i see things going, its certainly the ideas i would be working on as i have some broad strokes for a Alien Covenant Sequel... how close this is to the Actual Plans maybe we shall never know.

BigDave

Jan-08-2018 4:07 AM

@Thoughts_Dreams

I think the Problem is how Prometheus went to set up something BIGGER than Alien instead of being about the Xenomorph and ALIEN, in hindsight the movie needed to be a bit more Alien so that more clues to Alien was there, and so a sequel would steer away from Alien and have the Alien Fans have enough clues.... 

But the back-lash for Prometheus led FOX to think they need to actually Steer Towards Alien instead, which only creates Problems because some elements have to be dropped, which was the expense of Dr Shaw and the Engineers.

You see the Space Jockey Event was a Ancient One, related to some Bio-Logical Warfare the Space Jockey Race was involved in.  Prometheus attempted to answer this loosely, but it was too lose, and not enough....  My Prometheus Re-write actually addressed the Alien connection more, and yet NEVER had a single Xenomorph.  It did however have a more Alien Fifield, a Neomorph looking Chest Buster.  A reveal of what was behind the Deacon Mural Door.   which was another Mural not far off HR Gigers Alien one.

I feel such changes would have set up more clues to Alien, and left Prometheus to explore different things.... in a sequel.

We dont know what P2 was going to be about.... until we see any earlier drafts..  The source i had made some claims in vague ways, which appears some elements are in AC, but it appeared we would see the Agenda and explore Creation more...  and see via David experiments him create something similar to the Xenomorph, and by showing the Process he had used, would make clearer HOW the Xenomorph in Alien came to be.

The way to ANSWER LV-426 could only be done via clues, Narration and Flash Back, you could not cover a movie set within that Time-Frame, because it would mainly have Engineer type beings and NO or little Humans in it...   It appears Prometheus 2 would have given clues without actually having to have a Flash Back of the Ancient Event.

But when doing a more Literal Prequel like AC, in order to have Humans involved in the Story, within the Modern Time-Frame, then the only routes would be to have David RE-CREATE the Xenomorph and hint his agenda for it and how he created it would surely be similar to Before.  But it appeared they decided that actually allowing David to CREATE IT instead would be interesting Curveball and would allow for the event of LV-426 to be directly tied in the Time-Line

so we can see simply the HARD TASK to show us HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph was created, and HOW/WHEN the Derelict Crash Landed on LV-426 in a movie that would not have to be about Flash Backs.  Because only Flash Backs would work, but would such a thing be ideal.   So by virtue of going for a more literal direct route by NOW making the Xenomorph a event after the events of Prometheus, and Spoon Feed the Creation and Event, has lead to where we are NOW.

ignorantGuy

Jan-08-2018 8:41 AM

BigDave 

I can't recall Shaw treating David badly, maybe just maternally (as a child at the end) and with mistrust (because of Charley, and he mocking her, ...) . But that maybe completes the Oedipian theme, killing the father and f***in the mother...

For me, that reference to the Nat King Cole's song remake only fits the first verse (even that not all because David is far from being wise, not even understanding the Meaning of his poem), while the second only in the most perverse way can be true. Experimenting on women's sexual organs is rape, not love.

BigDave

Jan-08-2018 9:05 AM

I feel David felt mistreated by Mankind, he was given more free-will than Walter who would have only saw his purpose to serve... like a Toaster.... David had more Free-will and i feel that he had Emotions and wanted to be treated no different to a Human.

Inside he resented Mankind, because they made him feel like a 2nd Class Life Form yet he was superior.

Dr Shaw treated him differently, he would have grown fond of her through he kindness, and then this grew to Love, i feel he then started to make some moves on Dr Shaw or she realized Davids Love was more than Platonic love however Dr Shaw could never feel the same way back, she may even be shocked and uneasy if she found out David felt more than Friendship.

So its likely Dr Shaw had shunned Davids Advances, which David then took as being betrayed, and he could not see Dr Shaw being apart from him... i feel she then tried to escape, and failed, and David may have then tried to keep her against her wishes and one day a incident happened that lead to her Death, or something that led to David using her in his Experiments in a Perverted way that through her Body he could give her Creation.

This is how i interpret the whole thing.... but thats not to say i am right.

in life however, we do experience people who fall in love with someone deep thats not reciprocated and we can see this what was once LOVE become Rejection and soon Hatred, i knew someone who Loved a Girl so deep, she was out of his league and yet she saw him as a good guy not like other blokes, he took this as he had a chance, and when he declared his feelings, she never felt the same and at this moment became odd with him, it freaked her out... she stopped being around him, he started to stalk her, she rejected and warned him off.... and his LOVE turned to Bitter Hate towards her.

This can happen in life, and i feel it is what happened with Dr Shaw

ignorantGuy

Jan-08-2018 11:23 AM

BigDave

And why would not here about the Great Director Fritz Long that death is not solution to are unrequited love, Is no  use to kill your lover as then you love any chance of being love back, and killing your love's lover will ensure that your love will hate you.

Further more David mocked her (I didn't know what you have in you), he was a creep about her (knowing how his mother and father died), killed Charley, but indeed in the end she was saved by him (he was also saved in return). But he also bombard the Engineers so that she could not get her answers, wants to experiment on her to "elevate her" (not knowing what effect will have on her psychic/soul). Yet she was still kind to him, Where was his kindness towards her? And finally he mocked her with creating the Xenomorph from her eggs, so they kill humanity, a thing for which she was willing to die to save.

 

BigDave

Jan-08-2018 3:29 PM

That is a nice quote and indeed a interesting one, i think maybe we need to look at David as a Psychopath and Sociopath and Narcissistic too.  I think indeed David did not have much contempt for Mankind in Prometheus, he even did mock Dr Shaw when he said "i did not know you had it in you" it was quite open to how David would evolve and Dr Shaw at the end of Prometheus, we had Dr Shaw with NOTHING left,  and David who has ambition he is finally free of Weyland and he does not want to just remain a motionless Head...  So they both needed each other,  David needs Dr Shaw so that he can be put back together again, and David will have to convince Dr Shaw that he could get her the answers she wants but she would have to put him back together.

So it set up a interesting Dynamic, and the Ending of Prometheus did seem like there was room for them to work together.   But following Alien Covenant as far as the Trailers and The Crossing Prologue and comments by RS and Fassbender.  It did appear that any disregard for each other had turned to mutual respect in the months after Prometheus, we do not know however if David was simply playing Dr Shaw all along to just gain his Agenda.

And so the kindness towards Dr Shaw is a interesting one, the Crossing appeared to show there was one, but we cant be sure if this was a ruse by David to manipulate her.

I think its all down to interpretation, and i may interpret things a bit wrong?  I think we need to look at the reasons for Davids Agenda at the End of Prometheus until Alien Covenant.

Dr Shaw has nothing, she would be willing to take the punt on meeting these beings on Paradise, even if doing so would risk her own life, she may get NO answers and Death,  she may get ANSWERS and then Death, the Chances of her getting Answers and being taken in and allowed to live a happy life would be somewhat low... who knows, you cant guarantee the outcome.

David would have his own Agenda, at first he was quite happy to leave LV-223 and be in one piece, but knowing Dr Shaw wanted her answers i feel he was intrigued to why, i think David was fascinated with the Engineers, their Technology and Agenda and maybe he had figured out quite a lot of it. I think he still however would have a lot of caution as he knows how the Engineer he last met reacted to him, and how this Engineer seemed to have little concern for Mankinds wants...

so for Davids Agenda, going to a Home-World of these beings, if David suspects the welcome may not be with open arms, then he may realize there is a chance they will give NO answers, and David and Dr Shaw would just end up NO MORE and so for Davids own Personnel Gain, he would surely be thinking if he can DESTROY the Engineers, then from the ruins he could find out more about them, than the risk of a direct face to face confrontation.    David in Destroying them would be able to Study their Culture and maybe gain some of those Answers Dr Shaw wanted by going this route.

IF David did grow fond of Dr Shaw before the Final Journey, then by Destroying the Engineers would also be a means of Protecting her.  I think David thus did care for her, but we have to remember his motives are likely for his own Selfish Gains,  so he would not be willing to Sacrifice himself or his needs for Dr Shaw's.

I think he may have had some deluded vision of a future they could have together, i was drawn to this prior to seeing Alien Covenant and indeed the Extras we see David touches upon how he wanted to Wash the Engineers World Clean so HE and Dr Shaw could start a new.... prior to AC release we had some leaked Set Photos and Props which included Baby Human Skulls (these turned out to be Engineer infants) but i was thinking at the time, did David manage to offer Dr Shaw a way to Create Life, and that despite destroying the Engineers so Dr Shaw has NOTHING now... David maybe proposes that he can help her conserve a Child?

As it ends up, it does seem David had this intention but we dont know how perverted and twisted Davids vision for him and Dr Shaw to start a NEW on this world...   I think Dr Shaw may have had some proposal by David which she rejected, regarding creating of Life, and so i think as well as being rejected by Dr Shaw due to Davids Feelings being more than Platonic i feel that David became a bit deranged, and to him i think he felt that using Dr Shaw for his Experiments to him was him doing her a Favor, in that he could Create Life from her...  at this point it was all about David's Agenda.. he puts himself first and i think he would rather have it where Dr Shaw became what she did, rather than her live without David.  It was a kind of if you WONT be mine then you will be NO ONES.

It would be nice to find out what really went on in their relationship as indeed towards the end, the way Dr Shaw was used by him, certainly does not seem like LOVE, but i think David has his own Agenda first and he has a Perverted way of thinking about what is companionship and love and he certainly appeared to be a Psychopath and Sociopath.

RS/Fassbender had said David cared for Dr Shaw, and also said their relationship was like a Marriage but it appears something went very wrong, and well Dr Shaw got a kind of Divorce that she was not expecting.

Michelle Johnston

Jan-08-2018 8:29 PM

What these posts remind me of is the huge story telling potential which was discarded in favour of an ALIEN retread structure. 

1) The contextualising of the Xenomorph within a creation mythos. 

2) The Shaw/David story.

The whole David wants to stop mankind from moving out into the Galaxy is daft and doesn't sit within the rules of the story. All he needed to do was take the Juggernaut to Earth and Canister it. Everything he needed to learn about the Engineers was contained within the Juggernaut he was flying.

The other hugely unsatisfying aspect of him recreating/upgrading the Xenomorph so "the wolves can slaughter the lambs" ignores the parameters laid down in both A & P.

The Xenomorph is about reproduction for its own sake with out moral or spiritual purpose. Its entirely non consensual and counter intuitive and over sexualised. It is therefore the result of breaking the rules of creationism which Prometheus was setting up. It is not a new species or the next layer it is an unintentional weapon which merges the mechanical with the biological.

"Rushing in" David to be the creator with his creation overload programme ret conning his performance in Prometheus which was objectively curious and dangerous for that reason alone, is going to look like a big fail years down the road. Ironically the performances of K and Stelline remind me the greatest failure of AC is to take David from the curious ambivalent robot to the moustachioed stereotypical villain. Even the awakening of some kind of sexually driven narrative where he hits on Shaw/Walter and then Daniels simply comes across as a lot of plot point convenient bait and switch.       

BigDave

Jan-09-2018 3:42 AM

" All he needed to do was take the Juggernaut to Earth and Canister it. Everything he needed to learn about the Engineers was contained within the Juggernaut he was flying."

I can totally understand this, if we are to look at Davids Agenda, if this was purely to eradicate Mankind, then indeed WHY not once Dr Shaw is in Cryo-Sleep, detour the Ship and Bombard Earth.  Then head back to LV-223 and pick up some more Cargo/Ship and then head to Paradise/Planet 4 and Bombard them.

This would be the logical way to go, if you was David and your intention was to eradicate Mankind and the Engineers.

The set up for Prometheus 2 would have been Problematic and we can see why the Direction was changed, but then it may not have changed so much...  because the alternative would have been Dr Shaw getting her Wish and then finding some beings on Paradise.  What we are left with then is.

How would they react to her?

Would they welcome her, give her the answers?  If so would these answers please her and be happy? If they are totally angered by Mankind and when they see her they would consider it a insult for her coming there for answers... would they just kill her on sight? 

How much of a movie could Dr Shaw and Engineers take up?  Unless they are Benevolent and can Telepathically speak to her...  

I feel that something more Sinister would have been better, and i wonder if this was the intention, only i feel we would have had more screen time with Dr Shaw and seen some interaction with some Engineers, and we have to remember David would be the Translator, and if he has pieced together what the Engineers had been up to i would have pondered does David make a Covenant with the Engineers, by telling them what he found out from LV-223 in regards to Dr Shaw and propose maybe Dr Shaw was the missing piece of the Puzzle to create a Perfect Organism and so throws Dr Shaw under the bus?  This was the route i was going to take with my Prometheus 2.  Before David then breaks his Covenant with the remaining Engineers.

BigDave

Jan-09-2018 3:49 AM

I will add the set up for the sequel to Alien Covenant is also problematic if Davids Agenda is the destruction of Mankind, or use of those Colonist for his Experiments and how he has informed the company of what he has been doing.

This does not set up a GOOD movie if this is the route David is going, because again all he has to do try and get to LV-223 and get a Engineer ship and Bombard Earth, but then its saying if Company Ships could intercept him before LV-223 so this would be risky due to the lack of Military Ability of the Covenant and closer proximity to Earth with LV-223.   But then David could just change the Colonist on the Covenant into a Ship that is carrying Eggs and send it off in the direction of Earth, while David uses the Lander to go else where with some Eggs.

The longer route would be to go to Origae-6 and begin one by one to take Colonist down and turn them into Eggs etc, so then he has Thousands of Eggs waiting on Origae-6 for the company to come across.

But either of these would make a ALIENY movie and Ridley Scott hints the next one would not be much about the Xenomorph,  i think the "what kind of a world would David Create" comment and the dialog in Alien Covenant from David "if we are kind it would be a kind world" seem to set up what Davids plans will be.

BigDave

Jan-09-2018 4:05 AM

I will now take a Look and back to the OT, at what Blomkamp and Ridley Scotts ideas would involve...

BLOMKAMPS ALIEN 5

His Plot seem to discount Alien 3 on wards as simply never happening, and give us a alternative Aliens sequel, one where Ripley and Co went on to live a happy normal life... UNTIL some Asian Company has obtained a Engineer Ship or likely the Derelict some 20+ years after the events of Aliens.

Newt appears to be a Pilot of some kind, and so does she come across what this company are doing and then informs Ripley? or does she stick her nose in and gets captured which prompts Ripley and Hicks to turn up, and set about to Sabotage the Companies plans to exploit the Xenomorph?

We see a Queen gets on the loose on some Space Outpost, it appears we will see Xenomorphs, but then we also see a varation of the Xenomorph Egg and Face Hugger and no doubt a different  Xenomorph, the Question being are these another Cargo (RS had pondered the Derelict having 7 different ones) or are these other Xenomorphs experiments the company had conducted?

We then arrive at what appears to be some Egg Morph, or other Mutation of Humanoids and so this could be something interesting...   FINALLY it appears we shall see Ripley come across and fuse with some Engineer Technology in some kind of Space Jockey Suit and NO DOUBT this will replace the Power-loader vs Queen Aliens Finale.

RIDLEY SCOTTS ALIEN AWAKENING

The set up here is to continue the eventual route towards the back door of Alien, were we will see the Chess Pieces move towards this event, and the next stop will be a movie that will SET-UP likely the 3rd Movie that would Tie Directly to the Derelict.    Which means the 3rd movie will involve Davids Creations, getting Evolved and in their Thousands on a Engineer Ship that ends up in the Zeta 2 Reticili System which is NO WHERE near Origae-6 we can assume.

So Ridley Scotts next movie would have bridged the Gap Between Alien Covenant and this 3rd Movie above that would connect to Alien.    It appears David will be taking the Covenant and its Colonist to Origae-6 and at some point during the journey the company will receive Davids Transmission and wil no doubt be sending at least ONE ship to Investigate and arrive at Origae-6.   While a Engineer Ship arrives back at Planet 4 to discover Davids work and will want to find the culprit..  So a Company Ship and Engineers will be TWO of the 3-4 incoming Parties that will no doubt arrive at Origae-6, were we can assume would be years after David has arrived there first.  What David will do during the journey, what would he do to the Colonist and what are his plans for Origae-6 are all unknown at present.

Its implied he sees the Colonist as Lamps for his experiments, but if the movie is less focus on Xenomorph, it cant be a simply case of awakening Colonist few at a time and do what he pleases with them.  Because this has to be a very Xenomorph type movie... unless creating loads of Eggs with no actual Chest Busters until late on would class as a not so Xenomorph movie.

I PERSONALLY think Ridley Scotts plan is more interesting, than what would basically be a Fan Service Ret-con Mash Up of Aliens meets Alien Resurrection.

ignorantGuy

Jan-09-2018 7:29 AM

BigDave

You could have thousands of ways to handle the encounter between Shaw and the Engineers, even she could have learned the language from the robot before hypersleep (being an archaeologist she must have been familiar with ancient languages already). It would have been not necessary for David to be an antagonist ... but well, he has no morals so that's enough for making him a psycho. 

The things which characterize Ac is laziness and greed and pretentiousness.

ignorantGuy

Jan-09-2018 7:32 AM

BigDave

And I forgot, Scott's obsession with Fassbender...

BigDave

Jan-09-2018 8:21 AM

Indeed David would apear to have no morals, these would stem from how he was viewed and intended, because lets Face it, it appears he was a Creation to Showcase the Greatness of Peter Weyland and so Davids creation was a Monument to his achievements so that Weyland can be like... "look at the greatness i have achieved", making him feel Godlike to a degree, while the other reason is to be used as a Tool, to perform tasks that would be more difficult, Psychically and Psychologically  for a Human.

David however was allowed more freedom in his programing, and he would see that he is SUPERIOR to Humans, and he would see the FLAWS and Evil of Mankind (exactly the same Flaws that would want the GODS to eradicate us).  David would therefor see NO reason why he should be a servant to Mankind and that actually he and his KIND should naturally be inheritances of the Galaxy, as they are the Un-Natrual Evolution of Mankind, in that if we Evolved from Apes, we had reached our Peak of Evolution (only Genetically Manipulating ourselves we can Evolve more, maybe like the Engineers did)  but we had created Synthetic Life in our own Image that is David and we created something more Superior than ourselves.

So David would view Mankind no more than we would look at a Monkey in the Zoo, and indeed the Engineers maybe viewed us in a similar way. 

Regarding Dr Shaw, i think she could have been taught some degree of communication with the Engineers, i think she would still need David to help her though but then the BIG thing is what motives do any beings they discover have, and how would they receive Dr Shaw.

This indeed was a INTERESTING Question, one of the BIG ONES for a Prometheus sequel, one that if the Engineers simply hated Mankind and saw one of us turn up, and would simply want to eradicate her, would make for a limited Story....  Unless there was something they could gain/use her for. This allowed us to ponder what would happen when Dr Shaw arrived,  maybe these beings are Benevolent? Maybe they simply abandoned Mankind and would be interested to see a SINGLE Human and be Curious but feel no Threat from just ONE.  But what if these beings are Far from Benevolent?  Which is what RS had mentioned in the lead up to any sequel during the post 2014 period.

A lot could depend on WHAT they could gain from Dr Shaw, and so back then we could imagine WHY was we created for?  If for example those Engineers had Engineered themselves to near Perfection that they lost the Need to Procreate, but Ultimately they would still be Mortal and while they may have Engineered themselves to Live for Longer Periods... eventually they may die out.... so seeing a FEMALE could be interesting....

If there whole Agenda was Creating something like the Xenomorph, then finding out that Human Females make for better Hosts or are needed to obtain a certain Perfection, then this would also give a good reason for the Engineers to appear interested in Dr Shaw.

So yes there was a lot that could have been explored in a sequel.... we have to ask did those Engineers on Paradise, know about Mankinds Creation? Our intended Destruction?  If so after the disaster of LV-223 maybe they decided to Wash their Hands Clean and Abandon us and that Terrible Place...  If this was the case then SURELY having  a HUMAN and a Sub-Creation Turn up could certainly Change a lot of things.

So there was a Lot of Questions that a David and Shaw arriving to Paradise could have answered, that with Alien Covenant had been brushed under the carpet... hopefully we can get some insight to the Engineers Agenda, History and Why they never came back at some point in future.

Michelle Johnston

Jan-09-2018 11:50 PM

@red0guy

I agree whole heartedly with what you say. Prometheus left open a wide range of thematic developments and they invested in a very powerful back story for Shaw which could have been exploited. 

The child who suffers early bereavement, sets off with a faith based belief in the Gods unable to have children.

David the robot who suffered apartheid and was in  passive aggressive relationship with his maker. 

Elizabeth heals David showing genuine compassion and yet is carrying the after affects of the pathogen insemination.

The platform to explore creationism whether mechanical or spiritual creative was huge. David and Elizabeth represented the two sides of the equation the perfect set up for both of them to journey.

The Engineers with their Paradise Lost narrative on LV 223 hubristic who themselves are only a part of the story.

Rich pickings indeed and based on the new brief from Ridders  John Logan comes up with, Shaw is the first one face hugged. Yawn.

 

ignorantGuy

Jan-10-2018 1:02 AM

Michelle Johnston

Well, we are the minority I guess. Many got what they wanted, dragons and "shit", and gore and a villain better than Roy Batty ....

BigDave

Jan-10-2018 3:50 AM

I put this in another Topic but it applies here also.

It appears FOX and RS had discussed near Back-to-Back Sequels, the draft was almost done if not just needing some final tinkering and putting to a Shooting Script,  Ridley Scott had announced plans to shoot the Movie about July 2018, with a release in about April 2019.

Then we had the Box Office Results and Criticism and surely FOX would want to take a Time-Out and Reflect on what happened with the Box Office and look at the  Criticism , because FOX simply at this point (July 2017) would not be willing to Bank-Roll Blindly a Sequel and ignore the Criticism and Box Office Numbers, because they would not want to end up with another Box Office Flop so to speak, which would leave them Dead in the Water, because Logically any sequel would Set-up the FINAL movie that connects to ALIEN which would leave them the Choice to abandon Ship, leaving those Answers to Alien a Mystery of sorts, and leaving us on a bit of a Unanswered Cliff Hanger setting up a 3rd Alien Prequel that would never happen...   Or do they Proceed with the 3rd Movie at the risk of it also not being a Success.

So FOX was put in a difficult situation..

I think this Topic is Irrelevant as of now with the Disney Take Over...  I think Disney would be in NO RUSH to make a ALIEN movie,  i think also the Actions of Blomkamp by releasing more Concepts for his Alien 3 Re-boot and then saying he is abandoning the Project are simply a clever piece of Marketing by him to engage Fanboys to make Videos and Topics on Social Media wishing that Blomkamps Project can get the go ahead.

If Disney see on Social Media etc that Blomkamps ideas are gaining a lot of steam as far as Fans disappointed that the Project may never happen, Disney could see the potential to make a Blomkamp style Alien Movie.

Ridley Scott's chances of doing his Project are diminished but it may not be too late, while Blomkamps seemingly Dead in the Water Project could have a slight chance of Resurrection, Ridley Scott's Prequels are by no means Abandoned, he has stated that with the ground work/set up down for a sequel to AC and then another to bridge the gap to Alien it would be Crazy to abandon this now.  I think RS best chance of getting his Project Green Lit by Disney could be to work on a few Disney Projects and let Disney see first hands what RS as a Director has to offer, then this could get RS very much in Disney's Good Books  which could allow RS to Plug his Alien Prequels.

BigDave

Jan-10-2018 3:56 AM

"Rich pickings indeed and based on the new brief from Ridders  John Logan comes up with, Shaw is the first one face hugged. Yawn."

Indeed i feel this has disappointed some, but others never liked her anyway and the biggest disappointment is that now a Crazy Robot Created the Xenomorph..   I dont think the Alien Franchise has Happy Endings and it should not.... and so i can only assume Dr Shaw would eventually not have a good ending, i would expect the route taken would be more fitting that these GODS, the Agenda behind Creation is FAR FAR away from her interpretations of her Faith would be, in that a Divine Being Created Mankind and Loves and Cherishes Mankind.

There was so many ways this could have been explored.....  people said Dr Shaw was a Bland, Boring and Naive Character, and Noomi Rappace is capable of much more...  But can you imagine the effect on a Woman who only has her FAITH left, and who wishes to discover these Would Be Gods for Answers... but what she discovers is Far from what he Faith Teaches, and Proves Mankind are insignificant in the grand scheme and her FAITH is a SHAM!  There is No Benevolent Place for us, No Paradise.

If people thought David had become unstable and crazy in those 10 years, can you imagine what REVELATIONS like the above would do to DR SHAW?

ignorantGuy

Jan-10-2018 7:44 AM

BigDave

Almost all Alien movies had happy ending:

1. Alien - Ripley survives

2. Aliens - Ripley+ Hicks + Newt + Bishop survive

3. Alien 3 - Ripley dies a saviour at the end, Newt and Hicks die in their sleep, Bishop ask to be euthanized, was the most  least favorite movie and should have closed the series.

4. Alien Resurrection - Ripley clone survives, Call survives, and at least Ron Pearlman's character survives.

5 AVP the protagonist survives.

6 AVPR - don't know, never seen, never will

7. Prometheus - Shaw (the protagonist them, as Rapace is credited first not Fassbender) and David survive.

8. comix - don't as i didn't have any.

For me it is pretty clear that most of them have something of a happy ending, but what you think the Franchise should is up to you, but no one in their right mind would think that the way to earn more money from a film is to crank up nihilism. 

As for Rapace, do you realize her last movie in Hollywood was in 2015 in Child 44 (and for 2 years she disappeared, and came back in that crap Rupture) and I don't think she will be back soon, unfortunately. You might say that she is too good an actress to play a certain role, but that I think is better than to play none. Oh, well, I hope Stockholm will arrive at my $hitty cinema later this year.

Michelle Johnston

Jan-10-2018 7:57 PM

@BigDave

Bland, boring and naive. 

I think this sums up the problem for a franchise linked to the Alien. There is a subtext here.

In an Alien related movie you need a Xenomorph.

In an Alien related movie you need a Ripley.

Prometheus had neither and Shaw was a much more interesting and nuanced character than Ripley. her back story was more sophisticated than any other character in the Alien series. We had her family history, we had her relationship on screen and she had a very strong context the naive believer. the arc she goes through is far more nuanced and interesting than Ripley which can now be seen as a routine Hollywood trope. Compare Shaw to Vasquez the latter a great piece of entertainment and perfect for Aliens but none of the subtleties of Shaw. However I would be willing to bet those that love Vasquez find Shaw bland. 

The real problem is that Noomi and Katherines performances were to subtle and thoughtful for an action horror movie.

  

BigDave

Jan-11-2018 4:34 AM

@red0guy

Yeah i understand we get survivors, but the set up always lent to events that would throw them back into the Horror, Ripley would have had a new start in life had the company not built a Colony on LV-426 and she would have mourned the loss of her daughter due to being in Cryo-sleep floating for 50+ years.   Hicks, Ripley and Newt believed the Nightmare was over after Aliens and would go onto some Happy Ending.... until the events of Alien 3...   Alien Resurrection we see Ripley 8 survive but they arrive at a Earth that appears to be in some great disappear where global conflict between Humans and Synthetics and Synthetics vs Synthetics has happened. 

My Happy Ending comment was really aimed at how Miss Weaver said Ripley and Hicks and Newt deserved a Happy Ending, which means that she felt Alien 3 was a injustice, yet she was the one who wanted Ripley killed off...   I think its the Peril that Characters Face that help with Good Characters. Its a shame no movie after Alien 3 really captured this much.

@Michelle

I can kind of agree with the last statement and totally agree with the rest, i think the Problem is too many Aliens Fans seem to expect and think that Prometheus is not a good ALIEN movie, yet the idea was to move away from ALIEN and explore something else, where Kung Ho Action Characters are not needed, and i think with Daniels they tried to tread the even ground between a Dr Shaw and Ripley.

There was a lot of potential in how Dr Shaw for at least half a movie could have been explored.  The set up similar for Daniels but its a bit hard now with the kind of ending they chose (Daniels realizing Walter is actually David).

ignorantGuy

Jan-11-2018 5:23 AM

BigDave

People change, money runs out.

BigDave

Jan-11-2018 6:29 AM

I think Disney will be looking at how well The Predator Performs... both Financially and Critically before they may make a decision on what/if they will take on any of FOX's Sci-Fi Franchises within the near future.

The Problem Faced with Blomkamps idea is the every Aging of Miss Weaver, she is not far off 70 years old and so portraying her for anything younger than 55 would be a push, she could play a 60 year old with ease, even if shooting does not start for 2 years.. At present she could play a late 50's Ripley but as time goes on then Blomkamps Plot has to be pushed forwards as far as Time-Line... If we dont get no Alien 5 until say 5 years time then the movie would have to be set 25-30 years after Aliens.. unless CGI is used.

Also Blomkamps idea would mean eradicating Alien 3 and Alien R from Canon, and really what NEW would it add?  A few things but the rest would be to retread the same Trope and Fan-service.

 

The Problem faced with Ridley Scotts idea... is again AGE, RS is not getting younger and i would think ideally he would need to work on his Alien Prequels in the next 3-5 years.  The more time goes by the less likely RS will be able to take a active role....  The Next Problem is Fassbender the longer a sequel to AC is taking the more he will age.... if we get nothing for 3 years then Fassbender will be 10 years older than when he Shot Prometheus and surely Androids Dont AGE!  So again these Prequels would have to be done in 3-5 years before Fassbenders Age compared to David would start to show, but again CGI could help.

The Problem we have is i am not sure Disney would be working on any of these projects not in the near future....   If The Predator does well, they may proceed with a sequel to that instead.  If it Bombs then they may Question the Validity of the Franchises and where to go next.

But i think they may consider a AVP Reboot.... i do feel a  AVP Reboot is more likely than any Alien Franchise Sequel or Prequel at the moment.

BigDave

Jan-11-2018 6:37 AM

It appears i cant Edit my Post...

I was going to add regarding Alien Covenant... is that i feel they cant abandon the Prequels they need Closure and so i think this has to be the route, despite some problems with AC, rather than going for a Ret-Con of Alien 3

I do think Disney will eventually however... produce either.

1) A Alien Movie set within the Universe but not any literal connection to Davids Prequels or Ripleys Alien Franchise.  A movie that may offer a Alternative Time-line or be set within and not contradict Alien Franchise or Prequels.

2) A sequel to Alien Resurrection that may not include Ripley 8

3) A Prequel to Alien that is more direct, that may brush aside but not ignore the events of RS Prequels.

4) A Alien vs Predator Reboot.

5) If the Franchise is not touched for 10 years... then maybe they will REBOOT the Whole Franchise.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-11-2018 8:41 AM

Big Dave:

Maybe that but they should have still stuck closer to the Alien thing, otherwise what is the point of doing a prequel at all? Either make it clear that it is a prequel or make it clear that it is its own thing. They went something like "this is, eh no it is not, bla bla bla". Do you remember when they said first that it is a prequel and then it was something close to it. My reaction was: Just make up your mind already thank you very much. How difficult can that be really? Why be interested in a movie when the creators can not decide what it is? I do not say that Prometheus is total junk (there are parts that I like) but it did not help that they were not direct with what it was.

Yup there should have been more clues, like the Xeno Fifield, that thing looked great by the way, a lot better then the zombie (which was kind of crap).

Cutting down the time for Shaw was no problem but I would have liked to see more of the Engineers. Fox got it all wrong in my opinion in their answer to the criticism towards the movie, they simply didn't get it.

It makes totally sense to have the SJ thing being something that occurred long time ago, it makes it more interesting that way. Each time that I have watched Alien I have imagined it being something that is very old but impossible to put an exact date on. Compare it to something like a children's story about an elf that lived a long time ago in a house in a dark forest (this is just an example that I totally make up). To me at least it gets less interesting if you move the time-line closer to the present, the same with the SJ. An alien movie does not even have to have a Xeno in it for the simple reason that it is a prequel. Your re-write seems interesting. Can you put it up somewhere so we can read it?

Having David re-creating something close to the Xeno could be alright as long as it is clear that his version is not the original. Did the earlier drafts had as much of David in them as AC had or id there something to show that the change came later? I just wonder where in the process they started the decline of it or if the earlier versions had less of him.

Maybe they could have had flashbacks to the LV426 crash by showing partially the travel to that place.

"… would be interesting Curveball and would allow for the event of LV-426 to be directly tied in the Time-Line."

Alright it is just that it sucks. It should be more impressive than that in my opinion, more alien. I would have it that the engineers created it from a previously existing life form sort of like you see sorcerers cook some crazy medicine a la Lord of the Rings or something like that, loosely of course. Maybe have it create in a lab or something. To me Engineer science could be really impressive to show if it is being done right. Hopefully we will see something similar to it in the next movie if we will get one, that could be very interesting.

You see the Engineers going into a cave or something. They walk to a room with a heavy door, you also see like a lab but way more advanced. We see that and then they cut the scene and when we have the next scene we see that they have created something like some eggs. I think that we could see what kind of ingredients that they used but we never see exactly how they did that. At this point there is no Xeno there because it would probably destroy them, but we see the eggs and from the eggs come facehuggers which turn into Xenos. Maybe this was lame but I would not mind if they had a scene like that because then we see that the Engineers created something like it but we never see exactly how it was made. If this would be made in a lame way then many would complain but there could be a way to make it right.

"I think its all down to interpretation, and i may interpret things a bit wrong? I think we need to look at the reasons for Davids Agenda at the End of Prometheus until Alien Covenant."

He disliked mankind but liked Shaw so maybe he thought that he did her a favor when he started to mutate her into what ever. When he used her for the monsters her genes were used so maybe he tried to give her everlasting life… in a way. I don't know, it is very difficult to come up with a convincing answer to this.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-11-2018 8:44 AM

"… remind me the greatest failure of AC is to take David from the curious ambivalent robot to the moustachioed stereotypical villain. "


Exactly Michelle, that was one of the things that I did not like that much about the movie. Still David was sort of interesting but he was better written in Prometheus. The more ambiguous version in Prometheus was better.

BigDave

Jan-12-2018 7:27 AM

I think this was always going to be the Problem and a Problem with the Franchise in General, no matter how you try and expand or explore the Alien Universe most people will associate it with ALIEN and associate ALIEN with Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Bursters and then the Big Guy (Xenomorph)

The Reason for doing a Prequel Original was this..  That NO movie ever addressed the following.

*Who was the Space Jockey?

*Where was he going and where did he come from?

*What was he doing with that Cargo?

*Where did that Cargo come from?

Some fans expected the Answers to these had to involve the following.

*Where did those Eggs Come from?

*What happened to the Space Jockey?

The 2nd of these is answered by studying the Movie, the Space Jockey was infected with the Cargo.

So RS had attempted to answer those Questions, and yet the answers to a degree was there and RS had explained them way prior to the Prequels.

*The Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon

*The Space Jockey was Piloting a Ship Carrying these Weapons.

*He got infected with the Cargo.

We thus had it that the Space Jockey was connected to the Cargo, as a Bio-Weapon, his ship was a Biological Warfare Cargo Ship, or even Bomber, so we know the Space Jockey Race was behind the Xenomorph.   

What we never knew was..

*Why did he have the Cargo, where was he going, who was the TARGET?

*Where did he come from, what WAR was he involved in and WHY create that Weapon?

*How was that Weapon Created, what Origin did those EGGS come from?

Its these 3 Questions that was the main Focus on doing the Prequel, and during the Process of this they had decided to give more BACKGROUND to the Space Jockey because we know nothing about HIM his Race, their Purpose/Agenda or Origin.   So the Reveal of the ENGINEER race was the Focus, and they came up with a Broad Plot for WHO these beings were and then WHY they created/intended to use those Xenomorph EGGS.

Indeed Alien Engineers was the outcome of this, and it covered the Xenomorph Origins but kind of loosely,  and at some point FOX felt that we had actually seen Xenomorphs over and over, but the Space Jockey/Engineers was something NEVER done and was interesting and more Focus on them and Humans and our Creation too David was needed, and to tone down the Xenomorph clues and not include any Xenomorphs because they felt it was not needed.

This is when Prometheus became a Loose Prequel, were it toned down the Xenomorph, but still tried to show us the Beast is connected as a Bio-Weapon to those Engineers, and that LV-223 was connected to the Xenomorph Origin but they did not Spoon Feed the exact step by step process or show us the actually event that leads to the Eggs Creation, or Loading on the Derelict etc.

So Prometheus was a loose Prequel, it provided or attempted to provide sufficient clues to the Xenomorph, but also leaving some Mystery surrounding it...  And it was the Engineers and the Agenda, the WHY as the most important thing to explore.   The Plans appeared to be to set up a sequel that would Steer Away from ALIEN.

RS had said Prometheus was set in the same universe, it would uncover the beings who created the Xenomorph and WHY but it would not directly connect us to ALIEN however a lot of Fans simply could not grasp the concept and felt any movie set in the ALIEN universe has to connect to the Xenomorph and ALIEN

FOX took this onboard and thus changed Prometheus 2 to a NEW Alien Prequel where they will now directly lead us to the Xenomorph Creation and HOW/WHY/WHEN that Cargo of Eggs ended up on the Derelict.

By going this route and how it handled the Engineers, it now kind of diminishes the Engineers Role and maybe how many of them are ALIVE, while Spoon Feeding us the Xenomorph but now with some Curveball idea that has displeased most Alien Franchise Fans.

They could have carried on with steering away from ALIEN and those EGGS but if they took this route, some Alien Fans would complain that the Movie has NO answers and NO Xenomorphs. Yet not realizing that the Prometheus Sequel would be about the Engineers and Mankind and not the essentially Bio-Weapon used to Destroy us.  It would set up a NEW Franchise, thats set in the same universe but not a ALIEN Franchise Movie.

FOX however took on board some of the criticism and saw the interest in Blomkamps Alien 5 and felt that going back to a ALIEN movie and linking to ALIEN is what Fans want and what would make the most $$$$$$$

But some fans now want more ENGINEERS, so its going to be harder to bring them into it, and follow the literal direct path to ALIEN only as far as now the Engineers will be via their Ship perhaps no more than a PLOT Device.

Had FOX stuck with RS and not gave into Fan Pressure, we could have had SO MUCH MORE and yet eventually had more clues to Answer ALIEN .... but alas

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Ati started a new discussion: ALIEN (1979) - The Pyramid on the Alien: Covenant forum

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