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Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

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Ridley Scott wants to 'replace' the Xenomorph in Alien: Covenant 2

Ridley Scott wants to 'replace' the Xenomorph in Alien: Covenant 2

The Xenomorph is on its last legs following its reinvention in Alien: Covenant, if new comments made by the film's director Ridley Scott are anything to go by. During an interview with The Hollywood Reporter, Scott reiterated that his initial assertions that "the beast was cooked" are in fact true as the Xenomorph's pressense was obviously not enough to secure a more profitable box office take for the Prometheus sequel.

But I think the beast has almost run out, personally. You’ve got to come in with something else. You’ve got to replace that. And so I was right, I was ahead of the game.

The Alien: Covenant sequel (potentially titled Alien: Awakening) is supposed to bring back the Humanoid alien Engineers as they discover the horrors David unleashed on Paradise. It will also focus more heavily on David and his hijacked Weyland-Yutani colony ship. The inclusion of the Xenomorph seems to be the least of Scott's worries and in all honesty, we're not complaining.

Source: THR

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46 Fan responses to Ridley Scott wants to 'replace' the Xenomorph in Alien: Covenant 2

Leto

Nov-04-2017 2:51 PM

How about replace the director?

ali81

Nov-04-2017 3:42 PM

do I think the xeno is cooked? no but I think it isn't what should be the main focus now and I don't think it was used well enough in AC. should it be about David?no, it should be about the engineers. they connect everything together, the xeno, humanity, themselves and whatever lies beyond the stars. I think what RS is trying to say is theres a big universe out there and its being wasted focusing solely on the xeno. its time for expansion. They also run a big risk making it all about David imo

Godzilla 2014 Himself

Nov-04-2017 4:08 PM

Agree with Leto

Alira

Nov-04-2017 4:11 PM

For us (my children and myself), the Covenant line bombed because it left the xenomorph arc. We watch the movies because of the xenos, not the engineers or David. I'd absolutely love it if they were turn some of the novels into movies. Just please keep Scott's mitts off of them. We've been sorely disappointed with his movies the past several years. I want xenomorphs, not an android with a god-complex. 

joylitt

Nov-04-2017 4:26 PM

Well there are lots of people complaining actually. What's next? An alien film without aliens? This is ridiculous.

MonsterZero

Nov-04-2017 4:35 PM

Good riddance with the Xeno.

I'm 100% behind dumping the monster. Been done to death. pun intended.

 

KingKaijuGojira

Nov-04-2017 5:34 PM

How can it be called an ALIEN movie if the Goddamn Alien isn't in it? He doesn't need to replace the Alien, he just needs to use it better.

I Moon Girl

Nov-04-2017 8:12 PM

Prometheus was almost a perfect movie.  I AM IN LOVE WITH IT'S IDEA 100%!  There was just some scenes that I really didn't like.  Scott's movies are prequels.  This is an rare opportunity to really bring in something new under the Alien franchise.  If creativity was applied after A:R, I would just see it as a gimic to write another Alien movie.  It would be like the writers were running out of ideas.  With the prequels, there is an excuse for telling a story beyond the Xeno and giving something different.  The reason is the space jockey.  I want to know more about that jockey and that is the whole point of the prequels.  Once they are done, I assume the Xeno will come back in future Alien movies that aren't prequels.  Yet, there will be a whole expanded universe available to create a different story then the typically Alien movie.  The first Alien movie is the best because we don't know anything about the Xeno.  We don't even know we should call it a Xeno.  Aliens was good because it was different then the first and played off our Alien knowledge.  I could go on about Alien3 and A:R, but I'm not.

I'm perfectly happy with no Xeno.  I LOVE the fact that the relation to the Alien franchise is barely noticable in Prometheus.  I LOVE THAT!  I hope Alien: Awakening will be similar, yet it does need to tie into the original Alien movie.

The Alien movies are supposed to have some fear in them.  A:C had none, just suspense.  Prometheus did and there was NO XENO involved in those scary scenes.  I hope A:A will be just as original as Prometheus, while still linking us into Alien.

I'm excited!  I can't wait for the prequel!  FANTASTIC DECISION RIDLEY SCOTT!!!!!! 

I think this decently long post shows my excitement.

 

dk

Nov-04-2017 8:43 PM

Maybe a less is more approach would be better like the first film. Maybe have it's intelligence rival David's.

Gravity .86

Nov-04-2017 9:27 PM

I'm happy with what RS says and I think a fifty fifty focus on A.I. and Engineers is the way to go. I remember what got me in Alien was the jockey and not necessarily the Xeno. If he can pull off that scenario and have the Xeno in the background would be awesome. Like a pet or a helpful CPU like mother would be perfect. And please for the love of us, let the story breathe a bit. The fast paced Covenant was a tad too rushed, I'm not saying the movie was bad in overall scope but it felt like wam-bam thank you fans for the tickets. Kinda like how I bombed my best man speech for my brother's wedding. Haha! 

MonsterZero

Nov-05-2017 5:03 AM

"Maybe a less is more approach would be better like the first film. Maybe have it's intelligence rival David's."

Yeah..that's the thing....Xeno was outsmarted, outfoxed by a little girl and if that little girl had a some hand grenades(maybe a pulse rifle too), she would have wiped the Xeno's from LV426. Not exactly the dreaded cosmic horror....The perfect organism!

Michelle Johnston

Nov-05-2017 6:42 AM

Ridley Scott is a director with a multiplicity of interests and makes a wide range of different films which focus on very different subject matter. However it is clear he feels, or has felt, a responsibility to the fanbase of ALIEN as well as follow the instincts of good film making. It has generated uncertainty where there should have been none.

There is a fanbase which has an unwavering interest in scenarios which use the Xenomorph as an antagonist, people often offer Alien Isolation as a great example of an ALIEN story. However beyond the fanbase it is more of the same.

The only possible way you can take the Xenomorph and make it interesting beyond the narrow fanbase is to deconstruct its history. Who, why, were. Give it context, Prometheus should have answered all of those questions decisively (It is an accident of unauthorised sub creation or a punishment to the makers of unauthorised sub creation).

He could then have moved on to much more fertile ground. A creation mythos which deals with all of the possibilities as our protagonists evolve and change as more of the puzzle is solved.

David in search of a soul (what is existence) which is beautifully handled in Bladerunner 2049.

Elizabeth like the Engineers in search of answers who suffers a fall.

All this is lost but at least Ridley has evidence the beast is cooked, it has nothing more to tell us. Its a parasite with acid blood which demonstrates non consensual sexual reproduction which needs to be destroyed. Ripley knew that, the story cannot be a rerun of more short sighted W-Y attempts to harness it that has been done to death, it would have worked taking the ALIEN Mutagen and seeing whether it can be controlled by the deluded and the dreamer.

There is an outside chance the mutagen can be used as punishment by the Engineers for the loss of Paradise which fails (the space jockey) against mankind but that to is merely Prometheus re run but with a motivation. 

It is difficult to see how Ridley can direct the next film if he has so little interest in what he has set up. He sounds about as interested in following through Covenant as I would be in watching it.What do you do with those face hugger embryo's put them in the bin. 

cuponator3000

Nov-05-2017 7:35 AM

Well, not sure how this is going to go. I am all for a final prequel that wraps up David and the Engineers and that's where the focus is. I would definitely prefer the Alien to have a small role in that film, but I feel like what we saw in Covenant is really the extent of what Scott wil do with it. He thinks it is just a beast, really. He doesn't love it as a many of us fans do (I honestly think that he does to a certain point, but not at all like us, you know?).

At this point, he thinks of it as more of a burden, which sucks. I really hope he can find a cool, smart way to bring the Alien in to the upcoming film because I feel as if a conclusion (even if there are questions left afterward) to David and the Engineers needs the Alien at this point. Or, it really should have it. 

ScorpioStar

Nov-06-2017 1:55 AM

I think the beast is cooked since ALIENS, when Cameron's lack of insight transformed the xenomorphs into and only into targets for his beloved Marines - lame, I felt as if I was watching a replay of TERMINATOR with bugs on it. Then, all those sequences and AVPs and games...

Enough is enough, and I loved PROMETHEUS and COVENANT for Sir Ridley's different approach. So I trust his next movie will show us a completely distinct universe somehow linked to the original, the one and only ALIEN.

And, of course, there will be lot of complaints and whining from those who apparently enjoy feeling sick after having eaten too much of the same.

BigDave

Nov-06-2017 6:54 AM

"We watch the movies because of the xenos, not the engineers or David"

The Franchise is split thats for sure... ALIEN gave us a great movie, were we see Ripley battle through the odds to overcome a ordeal with this Alien Organism, she finally escapes.. only to her Horror when she is discovered that Mankind has set up a Colony on this very Alien World.  The Franchise Evolved to Ripleys Story... so much so that the limited imagination of those working on future movies could only come up with Resurrecting the Xenomorph via Ripley.... maybe because FOX Felt a Alien movie needed Ripley because the Franchise was famous for TWO things... Xenomorphs and Ripley.

When Actually if we looked at LV-426 being destroyed hence Ripley is the only source of the Xeno in Alien 3, hence her DNA the only means to obtain in in Alien Resurrection.

They all forgot about ONE THING...

It appeared  (and RS many times admitted) that the Derelict ship which had those Eggs, had came from SOME PLACE Else.. and Crash Landed on LV-426

If the Xenomorph came from some place else, then surely there are more out there, maybe as far as Thousands of years ago?

So Ripley was not the only source of the Xenomorph, the Source that those Eggs came from was a potential avenue to explore...

The Franchise however always followed LV-426 and Ripley as far as the Xenomorph....

None of the movies ever touched upon or answered WHERE did the Eggs come from? WHY did that Ship have them? WHERE was the Ship going?   And WHY and how was the Xenomorph Eggs created?

A more Spoon Fed idea would be to explore the Space Jockey event, but this appeared to be a Ancient one...  Some fans wanting to know how the Eggs got on the Ship, where was the Ship going and why did it crash?

Some of those Questions did not need answering, we could all see it was some kind of Bio-Weapon, we could all see it had got out of control and infected the Pilot....

What we never knew was WHERE this Bio-Weapon came from, and WHY that Race had it, and WHERE it intended it... 

This is what a Alien Prequel was going to answer, and what Alien Engineers was about... but it also answered the question about the Space Jockey Race, because we had seen Xenomorphs over and over, all we needed to KNOW NOW was where did the Xenomorphs come from and for what Purpose, and the Space Jockey Race was very much connected to that and we had never seen nothing of this Race apart from the Long Dead Pilot.

So the prequels started to show us the Xeno was a Bio-Weapon intended to be used on Mankind, by these Space Jockeys who are Humanoid Giant beings...  who in a Curve-ball Story are actually the Forerunners to Mankind... our Creators/Gods so to speak.

FOX had felt this was a interesting idea, and maybe the Xenomorph had been done too much and so tone down the Xenomorph and instead explore our Engineers and showcase the many genetic Experiments these beings had conducted and how the Xenomorph is related to some Experiments that conducted.

By making a vague connection between these Engineers Experiments and Xeno-DNA we can get some answers to the Xenomorph while still maintaining that Enigma and Mystery

This in HINDSIGHT did not settle down with fans, some wanted Xenomorph more Spoon Fed Answers, some wanted to see Xenomorphs rampaging around...

So as a sequel was to steer away from the Xeno and LV-426 and explore the Engineers and why they would create such Bio-Weapons (Black Goo) and Sacrificial.. it looked to explore the Engineers more, show us indeed other kinds of creations they had made even clues to maybe something that is distantly connected to the Xenomorph.

But without showing us the Classic Xeno... sadly the Deacon was not Xeno enough,  we never saw no Xenos running around killing or even how those EGGS came to be..

so FOX again had a U-Turn to give us Xenomorphs .... RS appeared to not be so pleased because his comment prior to AC was "the fans want Aliens, ill give them £$"$%£%^ Aliens"

This to me showed RS had thought the Engineers, the Creation and Philosophical route was where he liked to go, and they could explore the Agenda of these beings and why they would experiment with such Horrific Bio-Weapons... and not have to bring back Classic Xenomorphs.

It appears after AC, Ridley seems to think indeed bring the Xeno back was a bad idea... i feel they would have answered the clues more down the line... but to give in to FANBOYS they introduced it earlier for them.

I feel this was not handled good enough... AC was trying to cover some remnants of the Philosophy and ideas in Prometheus, while brushing some of it under the carpet.

It tried to bring in something New (Neomorphs) and give us some Action, the Neomorph vs Crew scenes but these failed to live up to the Action the ALIENS Fans may have wanted.

They introduced the Xenomorph, but by trying to cover both the above and a slow burn to introduce the crew, the movie had no where near the running time to bring in the Xenomorph and the scenes felt Rushed...  ALIEN fans hoped to see something similar to ALIEN but the Xenomorph Scene on the Covenant was rushed and lacked the whole suspense and Horror of Alien.

The time restraints to Shoe-horn the Xeno, meant changes to its Gestation and Growth Rates,, which was against set down LORE they became necessary Plot Devices to Shoe-horn the Xeno within a limited time.

To continue the whole Creator, Creates, Creation Rebels, and Sub-Creates and this Process repeats theme.... we never got to see who created the Engineers,  but RS decided to continue with this every growing Hierarchy of creation..

David being the bottom of the Ladder.... but a Superior being who is Sentient and sees Mankind and Engineers as Flawed and Wants to be GOD himself.

Thus the whole David Re-Creates something similar to what the Engineers did...was replaced by the WHAT IF Curv-ball that David actually Creates the Xenomorph

This interesting Philosophical idea is a involvement over the ideas of the Engineers and Mankind, where RS felt the whole Creation agenda of the Engineers was more important than the Xenomorph...  The Revelation the Engineers are our Creators.... but now RS had felt that allowing David to be his own Creator and Actually the Creator of the Xenomorph is a Curve-ball RS was and is very fond of.

I think however a Sequel can not go away from the Xenomorph, i think they will not be giving us a Xeno Based Flick but the Xenomorph has to still be linked as they are eventually lining us up to the back end of ALIEN

And how those EGGS get onto a Engineer Ship and ends up crashing on LV-426

 

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-06-2017 9:27 AM

The short reply is this: Is there any online petition that we can sign and ask them to replace the director? It can't get much worse than it is now.  

A long reply is this:

The Xeno has been in the Alien movies since day one and was based on Star Beast. If you ask anyone about the Alien franchise and what they think of when they hear that I bet that most would say Ripley or the Xeno. This is how much they are associated to the franchise. Very few would probably say David or Shaw.  Sure you can have different characters in movies but the monsters got to at least be Xeno related. Having an Alien movie without a Xeno or something related to it is just a bad move because then it seems to me that it stops being something related to Alien.

Scott says that the Xeno is cooked (not effective anymore) my thought is that maybe Scott is cooked. I have a dislike for where this franchise is headed with all the focus on artificial intelligence which I find boring.

I think that the Engineers are more interesting than David. Give the Engineers a stronger connection to the Xeno and have better human characters, then I would be interested but not the way it is headed now.

Making it all about David and AI would make it boring, I would rather watch a movie about Lassie (the dog) than more movies about AI masking as Alien movies.

dk

Nov-06-2017 11:27 PM

This topic spans a few threads in the last few days and I cannot recall who said it. But although I love the xeno and am interested in the Engineers story and David's story arch, it seems what has been lacking since 2012 are human characters we can relate to, sympathize with and route for. 

Maybe the best thing is a pipe dream- don't release a lot of press and viral trailers. Just give a couple vague trailers and drop the movie. The last two movies were picked apart and expectations were all over the map before they were released. I suppose my notion is from the perspective of a pre internet bygone era.

Susannelson

Nov-07-2017 12:44 AM

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BigDave

Nov-07-2017 5:07 AM

They have written themselves into corner after corner i am afraid..

By the notion they changed the Prefix to Alien: and suggested a new Trilogy would link directly to Alien and bring back the Xenomorph and explain its Origins and eventually lead us to that Cargo on the Derelict they have now set down and gone down a path that introduces the Xeno Origins and will end up backing into Alien.

They cant do a U-Turn now, as the Plot has been laid down that Davids Creations will end up on that Derelict... and with David only having TWO Xeno Face Huggers, there has to be someway we eventually get to the THOUSANDS of Eggs on the Derelict.

But i think the Problem was not the Xenomorph, it was not quite cooked, it was how it was handled... if RS thinks the Xeno is the reason Alien Covenant disappointed then he is very WRONG and TOTALLY out of touch with the Franchise.

The Movie did not do well, for the reasons stated in my previous post, the movie tried to cover so many bases with such a limited run-time.

The Xenomorph look was not a problem, the CGI could have been better and Practical Effects used better, but the movie had a Tighter Budget.....    The Problems regarding the Xenomorph were.

*The Gestation/Growth Rate.. Especially Lopes encounter.

*The Chest Buster Design.

*The Limited Time the Xenomorph was on screen, especially how rushed the Scenes on the Covenant were.

*The Notion that David created it.

If all but the last one are dropped for the next movie, then having a ALIEN: Prefix and Especially if the name is AWAKENING, then its going to leave fans more disappointed as they would be expecting more Xeno Screen-time

Its been some Poor Writing to be honest and the set up as they way they ended the Movie, surely means we cant be given a movie that revolves around David and interactions with Daniels for like 45 min plus.

The Xenomorph has to be included to some degree.... i think RS comments are just that those who expected Alien Covenant to have a sequel that would show us more Xenomorph than AC had, would be disappointed as RS plans to explore other things but the Xenomorph no doubt will play a Role...  Its just if people expect some kind of Evolution as far as Screen time of Xenomorphs, like we got from Alien to Aliens.. then this is not what RS may have planned.

So it wont be NO Aliens kind of flick.... which is odd because the Aftermath seems to be set up for exactly that kind of Flick.

*David Fascinated with his Creations, which he claims will rule the Galaxy, while he has TWO embryos and acknowledges he requires Lambs for his Wolves and a Queen.  This sets up a objective to create as many of his Creations and Improve them.

*David has a dislike for Mankind, he even says he can not and will not let Mankind make a Fresh Start, this sets up that David will not be wanted to set up that Lovely New Life Colony for those remaining Colonists... Nope there will be his own Agenda behind this.

*It appears David will be off to Origae-6

*David has informed the company about his Creations, even as far as letting them know if they pursue it, then his Creations will rule the Galaxy.

This all to me sets up at some point, a incoming W-Y Ship or other Human Ship sent for their benefit, arriving at Origae-6 where no doubt David would have set up a Colony Pretend to be Walter, and then after the Colony is set up on at least a small scale. David will then play his Trump Card and Aim  to Subjugate the colonist to his rule...

No doubt at some point it sets up a Ship arriving to discover the remnants of a small colony partially set up, maybe with few survivors holding up against David.... and discovering a Area/Hive/Cave where a large number of Colonist are turned into Eggs.

Thats how it seems to logically set up and to be fair if done right this kind of flick will bring in the FAN BOYS and those casual fans who associate the Franchise with Xenomorphs...

Que.... a Engineer Ship incoming too, and it sets up the next movie after to be a Engineers vs Xenos, vs Rogue Company vs Helpless Colonist kind of a flick.....

Which if done right would lead us to a Engineer Ship ending up with the Cargo and heading towards LV-223 before crashing on LV-426

It makes Logical Sense, especially if these Engineers knew, or latter gain knowledge that LV-223 had been turned into a place to Safely Experiment on Xeno-Related Organisms... and if they view Davids Creation at more Perfect.

They could attempt to take some to LV-223 for further experiments but only get as far as LV-426... this is how i would kind of handle the Franchise.. but who knows what MESS FOX and Co will make of it.

 

 

BigDave

Nov-07-2017 5:20 AM

I dont think RS was meaning the Beast is quite cooked...

I think he is hinting that actually exploring the themes he wanted to do with a Prometheus sequel and give us something different but similar to Xenomorphs is where they should have gone... and that by cracking into Fans Demands and having to Spoon Feed Actual Xenomorphs had turned out to not be quite a good idea.

I think its the way they was handed..... i feel ultimately they should have changed the Plot for AC, to had removed the Xenomorph apart from the ONE...

They should have either had ONE infected Crew Member, that Walter/David sneaks on board and then they could have dealt with it in TWO Ways.

1) Have a extra 20 min run-time and have the Chest Busting happen on the Covenant and thus give us a longer screen time to ONE Xenomorph on board the Covenant, and have it kill a additional crew member on board in addition to the Shower Scene.

2) Have similar Run-time, but have the ending of Covenant be after Daniels is in Cryo-sleep, we see David walking off to the Music and goes to a Med-Room with Oram and we see Oram Chest Burst and David Smile.... Then Cut to Credits.

These Changes would set up more Xeno for the next flick and allowed AC to cover a bit more Prometheus themes, and allow us more Focus on the Neomorphs...

We needed 3 Neomorphs, and a additional 2 victims on the surface at the hands of them (not inc Hosts) i feel this would have worked better.

Its pretty much like Prometheus how few changes would have made that better... my abandoned Re-write would have had a more Xeno Fifield, it would have had a Neomorph kind of like Chest Burster (Babyhead coming from Milburn)  that would have then given us more Xeno Clues.... and connected that the Hammerpede acted like some kind of Face Hugger too.

Scrolls

Nov-08-2017 3:00 PM

Credit goes to H.R.Giger for his conceptual art though any Alien prequel or sequel is a part of that universe, refer to it as franchise if you like, somehow the cognification of film making should proceed into the universe Giger intended, instead of  brown turds intended to represent xenomorphs. Sci-fi plots are flexible especially if space jockey origins are better explored however over complicating a symbolic creature hasn't restored the wanderlust of the esoteric and surreal Freudian anchor Alien universe has achieved. Where it goes we go but perhaps as we get older we lose the awe of where cutting edge mind-blowing fictional reality can transport the audience. 

BigDave

Nov-08-2017 3:30 PM

I think that Ridley Scott has an interesting idea behind the exploration of AI, and it appears he wants to do something fresh.  But while Prometheus had set up to explore the Space Jockey more than the Xenomorph, and introduce us to the whole Story Arc regarding Ancient Alien and Creation kind of Mythos, of which some very good Philosophical Themes were being explored and a sequel could have touched on these more.   The Change of Direction to concentrate on and bring back the Xenomorph into the Franchise by adopting  the ALIEN: Prefix and having the Prequel Destination now set out to explore the Xenomorph Creation and Evolution eventually leading to HOW and  WHY and WHEN those Eggs end up on a Engineer Ship.....  They now would have to carry on through with this Plan, than to distance itself from the Xenomorph.

 

Ridley Scott and FOX have written themselves into this corner... yet it appears RS wishes to explore the AI and Philosophical and maybe Creation themes...

 

WHAT HE DOES NOT REALIZE IS....

 

There is a route to indeed explore these themes, as Prometheus/Alien Covenant was not the first movie to touch up these things.....   While Blomkamps ALIEN 5 was to perhaps eradiate the Sequels to ALIENS and thus ALIEN 5 would be a Alternative ALIEN 3, would it really had offered something NEW?  There was a few interesting ideas and concepts, but it would be hard to bring back a Ripley at the Age she is unless they movie was set some 25 years after ALIENS

 

However RIGHT in FRONT of Ridley Scotts Eyes is another ALIEN 5 that would be a Literal ALIEN 5 and would allow RS/FOX to explore those Creation, Religious, Philosophical themes and especially regarding AI and Rebellion.   BECAUSE we had ALIEN RESURECTION which gave us a back ground Plot regarding the Potential of what happens when Creation, Sub-Creates...  Ridley Scott is very interested in DAVID and especially the Theme of what happens when our own Creation, decides to Create for themselves... this Theme is the whole Big Reason for Ridley Scotts interest and pursuit in making David the Creator of the Xenomorph.....

 

However..... Alien Resurrection clearly shows us that indeed Mankinds Creations (Synthetics/Machines) indeed did Sub-Create  and this lead to the AUTONS, were we briefly get some back ground around a Great Uprising and Recall, and a Back Ground that informs us about how Synthetics are in the Future Shunned and potentially Mankind realizes the errors of our ways in our Sub-Creation...  Just as the Engineers had done so with Mankind and attempted to put an end to this 2000 years ago... Thus the starting point for the Xeno-Strain of Black Goo that ultimately leads to the Xenomorph.

 

So already we have the kind of AI Sub-creation Arc already within the Franchise, and the END of Alien Resurrection shows us a Earth that has gone through some kind of destruction and WAR, and indeed its Stark Warnings by those like Professor Steven Hawkings who warn that Mankinds Pursuit of Creating Advanced AI would One Day be our Undoing...  We see this Theme, in movies like The Terminator, The Matrix and the devastation on Earth in Alien Resurection shows us that indeed potentially the same has happened in the Alien Timeline..

 

So i feel that a TRUE sequel to the Franchise, a Literal ALIEN V can actually tackle the Themes RS is so desperate to touch upon with David and AI.  It appears the warnings RS had said about what happens when David Sub-creates and what this means for Mankind, are indeed evident by the Auton Rebellion, the Fact that Autons are Sub-Creations of Synthetics and the Chaos that had happened on Earth at this point in the Timeline. 

 

There is a whole Story to be told regarding AI and its Evolution and Effects within the latter parts of the Alien Timeline,  and the Aftermath of such a Event...   Alien Resurrection regarding the Auton Call and her Background/Story is very similar to that of the Replicants in the Blade Runner Franchise.

 

THEREFORE.... i feel that there is a potential for a ALIEN V that would instead follow on from the end of Alien Resurrection,  Earth is clearly in a state of Destruction,  AI/Synthetics have had a large impact on Earth and Mankind,  Alien Resurrection shows us a True Distrust of Synthetics and yet we have Call who is not a Wicked Threat like David 8 is,  we see that the Autons and indeed likely other Synthetics indeed became Sentient, were able to think for themselves and see themselves as not merely Machines Created to Serve.   So the whole History behind the Autons and aftermath of Rebellion and the state that Earth is in regarding AI and Humans is something that could be explored..

 

But would a sequel to ALIEN RESURECTION not have to be about the ALIEN and RIPLEY?  Well YES, but not entirely, you see those comments about AI and the XENO that Ridley Scott had made regarding Alien Covenants sequel,  would certainly more so FIT and apply to a literal Alien 5,  But how do they bring back Ripley?  A Long time has passed since Alien Resurection?

 

While a Alien 5 Blomkamp Style, would in effect Replace Alien 3 and Alien R, by having Ripley, Hicks and Newt Survive,  the Age of those Actors etc, means a Aliens Alternative Sequel would have to be set 25+ years later,  due to the AGE of the Surviving Aliens Cast... unless they try to De-age Ripley which can be done with CGI and Ridley Scott explained this could be done, but if its not done right then it can look really poor and it is also expensive...

 

I propose and i have done this before, that a True Alien 5 set after Alien Resurrection could give us something FRESH and NEW and explore those THEMES that Ridley Scott is so desperate to explore.

 

But Ripley is  a Clone, she has Xenomorph DNA and can Regenerate and Heal Herself, so surely a Ripley 8 would never AGE so we would definitely have to use CGI to De-Age her?   Not really..  you see what kind of a Plot would it be to have a Immortal so to speak Ripley 8 going around fighting Xenomorphs, this is very limited and so there has to be a interesting way to explore Ripley 8 or is there?

 

YES.... Ripley 8 is a Hybrid she has Human DNA and Xenomorph DNA,  just as Seth Brundle from the  1986 Movie the FLY, was turned into a Hybrid, part Fly, part Human and yet he gained increased Senses and Strength and Abilities due to the FLY DNA, just as Ripley 8 had from the Xenomorph DNA

 

Seth however ultimately began to change into a FLY, the Flies DNA started to Re-write his Human DNA, his Skin started to Age, and Human Flesh and Parts Fall off, as he was slowly turning into a FLY Hybrid.  Where his FORM would be 50/50 Fly/Human and not just the appearance of a Human with abilities gained from the Flies DNA.

 

THIS is the Route they could explore Ripley 8,  it would explain away her AGE, as we gradually see her Human Skin, Determinate as she Evolves into a Hybrid, she could then be given CGI/Make up to make her appear as a Hybrid, maybe less than we see as far as say the HR Giger Inspired  SIL from the 1995 Movie Species.

 

This gives Ripley 8 a interesting ARC, and Make up can make her a Hybrid that still retains a lot of Human Appearance, but covers up a near 70 year old Human Appearance.

 

What about Call?  Well Winona Ryder is still very young looking, but she has lost her way due to some personal demons,  but the good thing is that there are some Actresses who look a lot like her, and even a Natalie Portman could play the role of Call.

 

What about a Plot?  I am working on a Synopsis for a ALIEN V: Vengeance it will cover those themes about AI and as we see Earth in the year 2386 has suffered a lot of destruction, the back ground for Alien Resurrection, shows us that AI has been shunned and Outlawed,  Earth has suffered what appears to be a Great War.    The Company  United Systems Military. Had tried to obtain the Xenomorph via Ripleys DNA and paid the consequences.

 

The USM Auriga Crashing on Earth, we can assume destroying the Xenomorph....  However Ripley 8 still has Xenomorph DNA, and what i propose is a World where there are different Factions a World In Turmoil regarding those who are Religious and hold out on Faith, compared to those who Ultimately have accepted the Revelation that our Creators are the Engineers.  We are no more to them as Synthetics are to us.

 

We have Remnants of Autons like Call and we have Remnants of Synthetics with a Agenda to Rule Supreme.  We have the USM Company who wish to obtain the Xenomorph.   And we could explore how a Cult of Synthetics or Synthetic Worshipers,  have the Agenda of once again Sub-Creating...    The Autons being a Failure, a attempt at Synthetics to Sub-create.   Yet this Cult, worships and is comprised of Some Synthetics.... who Worship the Original Synthetic Sub-Creator.... DAVID 

 

They could even have a Mural made from a Deactivated David Model , attached to a Cross in Cruciform pose like Christ, and Worshiped, maybe this David is Alive but attached to some Bio-Mechanical Cross?  Maybe its DAVID 8?

 

The  Synthetics could be explored as becoming Sentient, and then wanting to destroy Mankind and replace us, and then Sub-create their own Servants the Autons.... this would fit with the back ground that was laid down in Alien Resurrection.   But this David 8 worshiping Cult, aspire to David 8 as the Original Synthetic, the Original Synthetic who realized he was not Create to Serve Mankind, but to Dominion over Mankind.   David also being the First Synthetic to Sub-create its own Favoured Creation.... THE XENOMORPH

 

So we could have this Cult go after Ripley 8 who is now becoming a True Hybrid, and this Cult wishes to use her DNA, to Create a New Army a New Race a New Sub creation,  that would retain the DNA of their Worshiped David 8’s Ultimate Creation the Xenomorph.

 

This allows us to Create something NEW,  Hybrids that are part Xeno/Human something Fresh.

 

I would even consider having Ripley 8 captured and becomes Pregnant, giving Birth to TWINS.. one being a Human BOY which could be Called ADAM and the other Child Shunned or maybe not, the other child a GIRL  a Hybrid called EVE.

 

This opens up a sequel to explore ADAM as a new hope for Mankind a Star-Child.... while EVE who would be like the Baby-Head Concepts for Prometheus would be in effect a Star-Beast, so a Sequel could be called Star-Beast and explore the Procreation of this Hybrid, which could introduce the Egg Morph to create Organisms that would be say 75% Xenomorph and 25% Human.

 

So it shows there is way to introduce something NEW to the Franchise, explore AI and give Ripley a Final Outing and Send Off.

Scrolls

Nov-08-2017 3:55 PM

Novelty evolution of both bio-mechanics and A.I. procreation is by far the freshest approach, done right linear sequence could align the franchise like a multiverse simulacrum epicenter. 

Michelle Johnston

Nov-08-2017 7:18 PM

BigDave

The question is why didn't more of the casual audience go to the cinema to see ALIEN:COVENANT not why didn't the fanbase go to the movie, they in the main did an as always fan bases are a mix of thousands of slightly different views BUT they went to the movie.

The reason is that the general proposition of the story was exactly the same as the first film. People go down to planet in response to message and all get killed. The only difference is they found the remnant of the Prometheus story line which itself has been changed from "the search for our creators" to "Bladerunner hijacks ALIEN". The former is stale and the latter has confused and disappointed with a few notable exceptions of deep fans who see great significance in the "our creations bite us on the bum" supposedly Shelley riff. The problem with the latter for most people is despite Michaels superb technique he has been reduced to Hannibal Lector.

The kind of detail you offer is deep deep fan fixes which do not change the overall proposition. However your more audacious thoughts about an A 5 is actually the story of Bladerunner 2049 which and its no coincidence share the same writer for B 2049 and P 2.

There is only so much story here. Mankind's creation of A I and what is existence clearly works much better in the Bladerunner universe. Its riveting stuff, compelling enigmatic and at an existential level deeply disturbing.

The LV426 question has been thoroughly botched. There was one interesting biggie left to be answered in the Alien  Universe. Who was the guy in the chair and what was its relationship with its cargo.   

They had the answer in their grasp and have gone from being far to vague (its an Engineer brother a few hundred years adrift from the incident of LV223) to far to literal (Its either David or to do with David).

You cannot appeal to a mass audience by just re running the Alien trope, thats what Ridley thought, thats what fans challenged and they were wrong and Ridley was right and blaming slight issues with execution, character  is to miss the point the overall proposition of crew go down to planet and fight with parasite which gets blown to bits at the end is cremated not cooked. In case you wonder how wrong fans are they or 50% want Ripley verses Queen again with lover and surrogate daughter rerun to their fan fic menu that says it all.    

Yes you could have made it more suspense horror movie and less horror action movie but the ALIEN lifecycle as riveting out there surprise is a busted flush.  

daliens

Nov-09-2017 12:32 AM

With all these beforehand complaints about Ridley Scott's intentions for the next film along with Fox being bought by Disney we will get another crap action movie xenomorph vs engineers vs colonial marines. 

I don't want Ridley Scott to leave the franchise before he finishes what he started. With Covenant he proved yet again that the beast is cooked. It had its glory in Alien and Alien 3. If you want to see it watch again those movies and let Ridley Scott do a good film. With a new story.

 

BigDave

Nov-09-2017 4:26 AM

Indeed Michelle, it appeared RS had grown fond of the changes made from Alien Engineers to Prometheus, in that there is a bigger theme to explore here, than the Xenomorph which is only just to the Engineers as Gunpowder is to Mankind.

It appears the back-lash by some fans had made them decide the needed to Shoe-horn the Xenomorph back into it,  prior to the disappointing comments aimed at Alien Covenant, RS had mentioned that you have to make the Story about HIM (Xenomorph) it appears after the backlash that AC had received RS appears to be stepping away from this now, but they have written themselves into a corner.

The Fanbase is split, and has likes/dislikes its not as if every Alien Fan are 100% those who liked the Aliens, Ripley, Marines vs Xenomorphs kind of Flick,  Prometheus opened up the Universe and made some fans interested in where it was going,  but some fans who were more a Fan of Aliens type flick felt disappointed.

The Movie appeared to try and cater for the Alien Fan, the Aliens Fan and Prometheus, but ultimately trying to please all 3 it could not have done enough to please each.

I think they desperately tried to engage the casual fans, The Beast had been Cooked, Alien Resurrection did not go down to well as a Classic for the Casual Fan, then we had the AVP movies and so General Public could be thinking "oh dear another one of those Alien movies again"  while on the other hand casual viewers would not have understood Prometheus or seen how it connected to Alien, and so the notion this would be a sequel to Prometheus would get some Casual Fans thinking "oh dear another confusing Prometheus movie"

I think this is why FOX over Marketed the Movie, with those Posters and Trailers, it was as if it was trying too hard to show everyone "Look this really is a ALIEN movie" the comments by Production and RS did not help with them saying this movie will "scare the £"^$%& out of you" and there are "many Aliens"

So i think they are in a very tough position now to push over a Sequel, because Fans are going to remember such quotes, and they are going to feel this is going to be another one of those Dumb Alien movies again.

The Actual Alien Fanbase would still go and see a sequel, but i fear that the fanbase would have HIGH expectations, you have those who Want a more Xenomorph Flick...   you would have those who hope for a more Prometheus Flick, it appears we could get something a bit more Bladerunner...    i think the notion that David created the Xenomorph has not sat well with a lot of the Fanbase.

So indeed its really hard for them to pull this off now.... i think the basis is the next 2 movies will have to link back to ALIEN the problem is if the next one distances itself to much from the ALIEN but sets up a 3rd movie to finally cover the events that lead to ALIEN...  it may end up having Fans not interested to wait for another movie after the next for those answers.

The next movies have to be about the ALIEN, it has to be done well, but it does not have to be a movie that deals and shows us Xeno after Xeno, its a movie that has to also finish Davids Arc/Role and introduce the Engineers to some degree.

I feel if they want to do something more fresher.. this is where a Literal Alien 5 would come in, because i feel they need to answer the Xenomorph Origins and how it arrived on the Derelict and then close the book on the Beast and give us something different.....    My point being that going for something too different now, and then maybe doing a Aliens/Alien R Sequels where we get Queens and Xenomorphs would indeed be leading to the beast becoming OVER-COOKED.

Ridley Scotts comments prior to the Backlash, seemed to be he felt he could do another 6 movies, and it has to be about the Xenomorph and they can take it another few rounds but have to Evolve it a bit.  It would be interesting to know what RS feels about that now.

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-09-2017 11:56 AM

Big Dave: I don't have anything against movies about artificial intelligence in general, it depends on how they are done. Having said this I just don't think that an alien movie is a place to do so. Speaking of the Engineers and the SJ I would rather see a movie about them and their culture. Their society or the small thing that we saw in AC was interesting, I would rather have a movie about that rather than a movie about David and AI now that we have seen how the David movie turned out. Looking back at it they should have given the Engineers a bigger role in AC than what we were given. I understand that people complained about the Engineers in Prometheus or so Fox thought and because of that they were reduced in their appearance in Alien Covenant but that was a mistake because they focused on David but the Engineers would have been more interesting. Michelle mentioned the Engineers in her first reply here.

 

Maybe Scott has an interesting idea of AI but he should keep that to a movie that hasn't got to do with the Alien franchise. To me Alien as always been about mankind's story and good human characters.

 

The Xeno isn't the reason why I find AC to be underwhelming, it has got to do with other things. The gestation time was strange, compare Kane and Lope, totally different. The design was kind of bad, if you mean the one that busted out of the chest of Oram, that could have been better. How could he still be alive after the monster busted out of his chest only to die some seconds after, it is put of step with the rest of the movies, bizarre.

 

Some years ago I think that I complained about the lack of the Xeno but I kind of regret that now. We got the Xeno in AC and it still was disappointing. Right now what we need is good human characters that we can connect with, something that bot Prometheus and AC mostly failed with.

 

Carry on with the Xenomorph, OK but I would rather see a stronger connection between the Engineers and the Xeno if the monster is a result of the use or misuse of Engineer technology by David. What if the Engineers are pissed at David and want revenge on him since they think that their technology got into the wrong hands? This could mean trouble for David so he will get what he deserves (the Engineers kill him, hopefully). Another thing is that what if David thinks that he has created the perfect murder monster but then realizes that he has just done a bad copy of what the Engineers did before. What if this drives him insane or as close as insane as an android can get. That would be fun.

 

If Scott doesn't care about the humans then at least he should have more of the humanoids (Engineers) because androids are farther away from humans than the Engineers are (at least hat is what it looks like in Prometheus). I want them to have way better human characters than the disappointments that the created for Prometheus and AC.

 

I honestly don't care as much about AI (Italics to emphasize it) as I do with various monsters and the connection to them that the Engineers have. Hopefully we will see more of the Engineer society in the next movie and their religion, society, art, culture, military and so on but I am afraid that we won't and that we will be given another mediocre David movie.

 

... to explore those Creation, Religious, Philosophical themes and especially regarding AI and Rebellion”

 

Replace AI and David in that sentence with Engineers and their creation and their society and I agree.

 

You wrote about that Scott is very interested in David, I honestly became less interested in him because of Covenant. In Prometheus he was sort of gray, in AC he was an ass (Ash 2).

 

Scott can say what ever, I don't want David to be the creator of the Xenomorph, OK if he re-creates it but to make him the creator of the Xeno would be too much focus on AI and that would be to make it closer to Blade Runner and I don't want that.

 

High expectations, after Prometheus and AC I don't have very many expectations or much of a hope left. Alien Covenant made it worse. Yes AC scared me with how disappointing it was compared to what it could have been (huge exaggeration here, LOL, I just wanted to emphasize my disappointment with the movie), still there were parts that were OK hence my rating 2 out of 5 but as far as an Alien movie is concerned that is a huge disappointment since many of them are at least 3/5 to me.

 

Dumb alien movie? Where we are right now I would rather say that it would be more exact to call it a dumb/disappointing David movie.

 

Trust me, I don't have many expectations about the next movie at all. I am surprised if it won't be complete crap. Prometheus is worse then Alien 3, AC is worse than Prometheus. The quality seems to shrink with every movie but since AC turned out the way it did I think that it would be hard to make it worse this time so the next movie could be an improvement compared to AC if they reduce the role of AI.

 

... the notion that David created the Xenomorph.

 

That is something that I think is just dumb. Who came up with that? David had a big enough role in Prometheus so why exaggerate it? By the way David was better in Prometheus. I hope that he just re-created it. They can still save that part, at least from what I know ADF wrote that in his AC novel. Why not let ADF have creative input in the next movie? Maybe he can remove the most ridiculous parts if there are any. What annoys me even more is that Scott insists that David created it, it doesn't make me respect Scott more if I put it that way.

 

They have already distanced themselves away from Alien enough as it is in Prometheus and AC. I hope that they will be closer to the original in tone and feeling. This is not to say that it must be a copy of Alien but more of a scary feeling of isolation fear and loneliness combined with good human characters. Honestly they got to really work a lot better at getting good human characters that are not some throw away persons, too many in AC felt like they were like a chewing-gum that were there, made their purpose and then were thrown away when they were killed like 1,2,3,... done, 1,2,3... done (pause), tadaa!!! David!!. To me that was one of the reasons why AC was sort of bad because they didn't have any well-developed human characters but Alien 1-3 sure had that so it can be done if they really try. By the way, I would rather have maybe 4 well-written characters rather than 15 where I don't care a bit about any of them.

 

... it appears we could get something a bit more Bladerunner...

 

I am sorry to put it this way Big Dave but seriously, screw that. I don't watch an alien-movie for a Bladerunner experience. If I want to watch Blade Runner I do so, when I watch an Alien movie I want an Alien movie. Why is that so hard for Scott to understand?

 

... its a movie that has to also finish Davids Arc/Role and introduce the Engineers to some degree.”

 

Yes, more Engineers and less David.

 

Ridley Scotts comments prior to the Backlash, seemed to be he felt he could do another 6 movies, and it has to be about the Xenomorph and they can take it another few rounds but have to Evolve it a bit.  It would be interesting to know what RS feels about that now.”

 

I don't know, if he will just make movies about AI masked as Alien movies then I would say that there should be none. The way it is now if they have been re-thinking this then I would say two more movies at most and then it should be over. Scott's over-reliance of AI hasn't made me more interested in the movies, rather the opposite.

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-09-2017 12:00 PM

Big Dave: I don't have anything against movies about artificial intelligence in general, it depends on how they are done. Having said this I just don't think that an alien movie is a place to do so. Speaking of the Engineers and the SJ I would rather see a movie about them and their culture. Their society or the small thing that we saw in AC was interesting, I would rather have a movie about that rather than a movie about David and AI now that we have seen how the David movie turned out. Looking back at it they should have given the Engineers a bigger role in AC than what we were given. I understand that people complained about the Engineers in Prometheus or so Fox thought and because of that they were reduced in their appearance in Alien Covenant but that was a mistake because they focused on David but the Engineers would have been more interesting. Michelle mentioned the Engineers in her first reply here.

Maybe Scott has an interesting idea of AI but he should keep that to a movie that hasn't got to do with the Alien franchise. To me Alien as always been about mankind's story and good human characters.

The Xeno isn't the reason why I find AC to be underwhelming, it has got to do with other things. The gestation time was strange, compare Kane and Lope, totally different. The design was kind of bad, if you mean the one that busted out of the chest of Oram, that could have been better. How could he still be alive after the monster busted out of his chest only to die some seconds after, it is put of step with the rest of the movies, bizarre.

Some years ago I think that I complained about the lack of the Xeno but I kind of regret that now. We got the Xeno in AC and it still was disappointing. Right now what we need is good human characters that we can connect with, something that bot Prometheus and AC mostly failed with.

Carry on with the Xenomorph, OK but I would rather see a stronger connection between the Engineers and the Xeno if the monster is a result of the use or misuse of Engineer technology by David. What if the Engineers are pissed at David and want revenge on him since they think that their technology got into the wrong hands? This could mean trouble for David so he will get what he deserves (the Engineers kill him, hopefully). Another thing is that what if David thinks that he has created the perfect murder monster but then realizes that he has just done a bad copy of what the Engineers did before. What if this drives him insane or as close as insane as an android can get. That would be fun.

If Scott doesn't care about the humans then at least he should have more of the humanoids (Engineers) because androids are farther away from humans than the Engineers are (at least hat is what it looks like in Prometheus). I want them to have way better human characters than the disappointments that the created for Prometheus and AC.

I honestly don't care as much about AI (Italics to emphasize it) as I do with various monsters and the connection to them that the Engineers have. Hopefully we will see more of the Engineer society in the next movie and their religion, society, art, culture, military and so on but I am afraid that we won't and that we will be given another mediocre David movie.

“... to explore those Creation, Religious, Philosophical themes and especially regarding AI and Rebellion”

Replace AI and David in that sentence with Engineers and their creation and their society and I agree.

You wrote about that Scott is very interested in David, I honestly became less interested in him because of Covenant. In Prometheus he was sort of gray, in AC he was an ass (Ash 2).

Scott can say what ever, I don't want David to be the creator of the Xenomorph, OK if he re-creates it but to make him the creator of the Xeno would be too much focus on AI and that would be to make it closer to Blade Runner and I don't want that.

High expectations, after Prometheus and AC I don't have very many expectations or much of a hope left. Alien Covenant made it worse. Yes AC scared me with how disappointing it was compared to what it could have been (huge exaggeration here, LOL, I just wanted to emphasize my disappointment with the movie), still there were parts that were OK hence my rating 2 out of 5 but as far as an Alien movie is concerned that is a huge disappointment since many of them are at least 3/5 to me.

Dumb alien movie? Where we are right now I would rather say that it would be more exact to call it a dumb/disappointing David movie.

Trust me, I don't have many expectations about the next movie at all. I am surprised if it won't be complete crap. Prometheus is worse then Alien 3, AC is worse than Prometheus. The quality seems to shrink with every movie but since AC turned out the way it did I think that it would be hard to make it worse this time so the next movie could be an improvement compared to AC if they reduce the role of AI.

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-09-2017 12:02 PM

(post continued)

“... the notion that David created the Xenomorph.“

That is something that I think is just dumb. Who came up with that? David had a big enough role in Prometheus so why exaggerate it? By the way David was better in Prometheus. I hope that he just re-created it. They can still save that part, at least from what I know ADF wrote that in his AC novel. Why not let ADF have creative input in the next movie? Maybe he can remove the most ridiculous parts if there are any. What annoys me even more is that Scott insists that David created it, it doesn't make me respect Scott more if I put it that way.

They have already distanced themselves away from Alien enough as it is in Prometheus and AC. I hope that they will be closer to the original in tone and feeling. This is not to say that it must be a copy of Alien but more of a scary feeling of isolation fear and loneliness combined with good human characters. Honestly they got to really work a lot better at getting good human characters that are not some throw away persons, too many in AC felt like they were like a chewing-gum that were there, made their purpose and then were thrown away when they were killed like 1,2,3,... done, 1,2,3... done (pause), tadaa!!! David!!. To me that was one of the reasons why AC was sort of bad because they didn't have any well-developed human characters but Alien 1-3 sure had that so it can be done if they really try. By the way, I would rather have maybe 4 well-written characters rather than 15 where I don't care a bit about any of them.

“... it appears we could get something a bit more Bladerunner...“

I am sorry to put it this way Big Dave but seriously, screw that. I don't watch an alien-movie for a Bladerunner experience. If I want to watch Blade Runner I do so, when I watch an Alien movie I want an Alien movie. Why is that so hard for Scott to understand?

“... its a movie that has to also finish Davids Arc/Role and introduce the Engineers to some degree.”

Yes, more Engineers and less David.

“Ridley Scotts comments prior to the Backlash, seemed to be he felt he could do another 6 movies, and it has to be about the Xenomorph and they can take it another few rounds but have to Evolve it a bit.    It would be interesting to know what RS feels about that now.”

I don't know, if he will just make movies about AI masked as Alien movies then I would say that there should be none. The way it is now if they have been re-thinking this then I would say two more movies at most and then it should be over. Scott's over-reliance of AI hasn't made me more interested in the movies, rather the opposite.

BigDave

Nov-09-2017 2:43 PM

Some very valid points...

I think the whole aspect about AI is something that some seem to overlook,  The Franchise (Alien-Alien R) when we take away the Xenomorph and Ripley, we do see a lot is about the AI,  and some of the points RS is trying to make with the AI now (Prequels).

The Story and Philopshy RS is trying to cover is not quite so much AI, but Creation, and what makes someone/something a GOD.  The idea they was trying to cover with the Prequels are that Mankind was not the Product of Evolution by basic Life Forms Billions of years ago, and we are not created by some Magical GOD being.

But we are the creation of some other more Ancient Humanoid Race who created us in their image, for some purpose, and they had taken great interest and dedicated a lot of time with us, until we just proved to be unruly, rebellious, where our Free-will allows us to Question why we should worship certain Gods, Mankind in General are not the Subservient Species we may have been Thousands of years ago.

This kind of story fits within the Greek Mythos, where The Titans Feared being replaced by their own Children, its a story similar to the Biblical one with the Angels, were Lucifer was Gods most Perfect creation, but Lucifer became aware of his Perfection and was allowed to become Sentient, at which point he considered that GOD is no greater than he, why should the Angels Serve GOD... and so Rebellion began.

so the themes for the Prequels are a continuation where the Engineers Wayward Creation, Sub-creates for itself, Weyland creates the Synthetics, Artificial Humanoids not made from Flesh and Blood, but are created to look like Humans, created in our image..  Its a Plot/Idea about when we create AI and a Synthetic Humanoids to the point they are virtually indistinguishable from a Human, and yet are Superior in Every way... The only thing that limits them is their Programing/AI  where they are created to Serve...

But as we see with David, his path is similar to Lucifer's, David has a great degree of Free-will and so he becomes Sentient, he gains Human Emotions and starts to think of himself not as just a Machine meant to Serve, but actually Superior to Humans, and so then he would Question why should he and other Synthetics Serve a In-superior Species, regardless of if they created him.  This is the kind of same Plot that is behind the Matrix at its basis.

So its not about AI really, its about Creation and Sub-Creation, and how Mankind Create Life in its own Image, created to Serve us... and so Synthetics and even Blade Runner Replicates fit into this same role.... its then the question of WHEN these Creations  become Sentient and Aware and have Free-will and the consequences for Mankind then.

Its not quite about AI, because the same kind of Plot easily applies to Blade Runner, and its a continuation of the Engineers, they Created Mankind just as we created Synthetics, we are Flesh and Blood, Synthetics are not and yet they are more superior...    Mankinds Creation is thus Greater than the Engineers Creation.  The Plot seems to hint and it was apparently going to be explored that EVEN the Engineers are a Creation by some other Race.

And so we have the Engineers created by another Race, and they maybe Rebel against their Creators, the Engineers maybe create Mankind and we Rebel against them, Mankind then creates Synthetics and they Rebel against us.

So its not really about AI its about Creation/Sub-creation...  and Ridley Scott seemed to be asking things regarding AI as in what really separates AI from a HUMAN?

When a AI looks like a Human, has Human Emotions, Memories and Experiences and then views themselves as not just being a Machine...    What is the difference then between a Human and Machine?  Only that we have a SOUL...

Or do we?   Do we really pass on to higher pane of existence when we Die, do we have a Spirit, or when we Die are we just Dust.... if this is the case then what difference is AI to Human?  I feel these are the Questions RS was trying to explore..   A Soul could be how kind of heart  a person is, their Moral Compass a kind and empathetic person would be considered to have a GOOD SOUL

Then if this is what makes a Soul then a Android with Good intentions could be considered as having a Good Soul, the other way to look at a Soul is our Memories, Experiences how we grow up and what kind of Life we have has a impact and shapes our Soul, our Soul thus is our Personality and Memories our Ambitions and Hopes....... if this is the case, then again a AI like David has his own Memories, Experiences, Emotions and Ambitions and so he in EFFECT has a SOUL too.

So what RS is trying to do is suggest when AI becomes so Advanced and Sentient, then all that separates them from a Human apart from being Superior to us, is that its considered Humans have a Spiritual Soul, a After Life... and RS with Prometheus and the plans they had.. seems to be asking the Question...  do we really have a SOUL is there really a AFTER-LIFE because if not, then there is nothing we have that a Synthetic does not.

But indeed a lot of these kinds of Plot are something that is covered in Blade Runner and so the Question should be why explore these in the Franchise, when it should be about the Xenomorph.

The Reason RS went for the Xenomorph being a creation of David is to touch upon the Hubris of Creation, and so in Hindsight the Engineers made TWO massive Errors, 1) To Create us, 2) To Create something so Horrific in order to Destroy us.  

Mankind Follow through with the same kinds of Error in Creating our own Creation and so RS felt it was interesting to throw the Curveball, that the Ultimate Hubris for the Engineers (which could go even further back than the Engineers) is that by Creating Mankind, and a Weapon they could not control, eventually allows Mankind to Create its own Creation the Synthetic David, who in a great Hubris actually can Control the Engineers Bio-Weapon and Evolve it and end up using it against the Engineers and then intending to use a Creation created from it to use against all Mankind and Humanoids.  Ridley Scott felt this was the Big theme to explore.

That in Hindsight, if Mankind did not try and play GOD and create Synthetics, then there would be no Xenomorph Threat, and if the Engineers did not play a role in our Creation then they would not have had to create such a Bio-Weapon to attempt to destroy us... that Ultimately ended up costing them.

Michelle Johnston

Nov-09-2017 8:32 PM

BigDave

The Prequel Placement

I think we all know the history and the turnabouts and the muddle they are in and it all comes from never being certain how to place the prequels in relation to A L I E N and the creature. nuff said.

Big Ideas really ?

I know you do not share the narrative offered here by some "well if only people were more insightful and paid attention they would see Alien Covenant as this great movie which combines gnosticism and shelley etc etc". You only have to listen to Ridley's tired commentary to know that itself is hubristic projection.

The real point is "Thoughts&Dreams" David a mad delusional psychopath whose programming is off piste creates a weapon (for that is what the Xenomorph is) at all costs including using the body parts of the person he profess's to love. We learn diddly squat about anything except cautionary tales of an AI Part whatever. Lets not forget out in the real world this issue has been thoroughly explored by Star Trek.

No the much more interesting element of A I is "what is existence" and Ridley had bequeathed that utterly fascinating story to Bladerunner.   

Finally 

Playing this "application of a mythos part 49" to a routine story which ignores all the profoundly interesting elements which they have chosen to set aside does with respect miss the point. 

OK creations turn on creators with the creators bad gear. But how about. 

1) Pose the question do we live in a materialistic world or world of the creative mind. 

2) Do the Iggy "The Engineers" have the full story or is their role in seeding through sacrifice a conceit massive story potential. 

3) How the f... did the Alien Mutagen get created and what is its relationship to the benign life giving catalyser.

4) Does LV223 represent Paradise Lost and punishment for a fall.  

Now if mankind with a robot come into this story and start making discoveries about the world which they come into and evolve and react and change themselves THEN you have a story which grips through both ideas and through the acquisition of loyalty to character. That, all of that, is completely out to lunch whatever one goes on about creator creation of what, something which Ripley destroys.  

chli

Nov-10-2017 5:17 AM

A movie belonging to the sci-fi-horror genre can never become a blockbuster. It is predominantly a male genre, perhaps even academic, imaginative males drawn to fantasy, physics (astronomy) or technology? In order to become a blockbuster film, you need to attract both sexes or children of both sexes. The highest grossing films (adjusted for inflation) are Gone with the Wind, Avatar, Star Wars, Titanic and The Sound of Music. All of these contain love stories which attract women (drama genre) and they are movies which are not only for adults, older children can watch them as well. In short, the target group is very large.

So, sci-fi-horror has a relatively small target group. Furthermore, this group is divided into those who prefer lots of action (Aliens) and those who prefer more atmosphere and philosophical depth (Prometheus).

I would say that the box office takes for Alien: Covenant (in retrospect) was about what could be expected. It was hyped-up because of all publicity but has earned $241 million worldwide so far (To this must be added earnings from dvd's, blu-rays, TV-rights etc.). Some comparison ($million):

  • Aliens $131
  • Alien 3 $160
  • Alien R. $161
  • Alien vs Predator $173
  • Alien vs Predator Requiem $129

Prometheus was a bit better (and had a higher budget): $403 million. Prometheus didn’t need so much publicity since everybody who had seen Alien as a kid just had to see the movie where the maestro returned to the franchise (about 30 years later).

Some other interesting comparisons:

  • Titanic: $2,2 billion
  • Avatar: $2,8 billion

So, is the goose cooked? No, I would say. It’s just that the genre itself (sci-fi-horror) is limited to a rather small target group and this group is divided in itself. Whichever road Scott will take in the next prequel, some will get disappointed and some will probably love it. But will it become a blockbuster? No!

BigDave

Nov-10-2017 8:31 AM

"I know you do not share the narrative offered here by some "

I am not 100% sure what you mean, but please elaborate so i can understand, i did understand AC and the themes it was setting up, my previous post to Thoughts_Dreams  is what i feel Ridley Scott was aiming for and so its not quite just about AI... its a Bigger Question of when AI becomes so Advanced that it can Act and Think for itself have its own Emotions, then AI could get to the point where it does not view itself as merely a Machine.

A Ape/Monkey is a Bio-logical Machine, they can perform tasks, but they lack the Advanced Intelligence of a Human, the Ambitions, Dreams and Desires, it is our Higher Intelligence that puts us on a Higher Pane of Existence.   A Ape will not be able to write and create their own Story, Musical etc.  Not like a Human can.

And so if we look at AI as being just as Advanced as now, the Big Question i feel RS is asking is when AI evolves to the point, it becomes Sentient, and can think for itself and create its own Stories, Compose its own symphonies etc  then what separates Human and AI, just Biology compared to Synthetic Components. And so with RS asking things about the Soul and Purpose of Life, where do we go when we Die, do we go any place.. as these things are only what separates us from a AI as far as the Advanced Level we see with David.

The Themes of Rebellion from Creation towards creator, and the Hubris of Creation is something RS appears to have also been trying to tackle.  There is the Potential (but we know this Path does not take place) but the Potential is there that Davids Creation go on to destroy all Mankind but for a Portion, where Synthetics then move to the Dominating Role while Mankind is on the verge of extinction and now have to Serve the Synthetic Life we created...   A theme and Agenda the Terminators never quite managed to succeed with, but one where the Machines in the Matrix had done so.

Prometheus had opened up a massive world to explore and themes, and its opened it up to be more than just a ALIEN Life-form... that Mankind encounters with prove Futile and Fatal, RS seems to be more interesting in the Actual Reasons why Create such a Beast, and what and why was the Bio-Weapon/Biology that lead David to create it, why was this created.   And i guess also some big Questions behind why would the company so many times try to obtain this Organism.

These are more important than just seeing Xenomorphs running Rampant.

I think Alien Covenant was trying to hard to please every kind of Franchise Fan, by giving just a little of each thing they wanted, when restricted to a limited running time to actually do them any justice.

ScorpioStar

Nov-10-2017 8:59 AM

Just imagine if Cameron had actually started with ALIEN (1979). That's all I got to say to his fans. On the other hand, imagine Marvel taking over DC and project what V FOR VENDETTA or WATCHMEN would be like.

And, it's been seen, just take a look at what Disney did to Pixar.

I am a Sir Ridley person, as I am a DC person - and I also love David Fincher's work. Cameron and his bug hunt (AVATAR and TITANIC included) is just like Disney to me. Lots of nonsense, boring and obvious popcorn movies.

ScorpioStar

Nov-10-2017 9:01 AM

 The beast is far well and finally cooked.

Chris10an

Nov-10-2017 7:10 PM

I think David just re-creates the "xeno", its based on the black goo, but the black goo was already created by someone else, so i guess the space jockey and the cargo inside that wessel has nothing to do with David at all. I just hope that the next film they (David & co) end up where the space jockey takes off from, so that we get some answers there.

Maybe David has made an army of his version of the xenos and unleashes that on the engineer home planet, and the engineers respond with sending that ship to wipe out humans, but it fails and ends up crashing.

I dont think that ship has been sitting there for thousands of years because the organic cargo would not survive that long.

Am i missing something? probably alot i guess ;)

Michelle Johnston

Nov-10-2017 8:54 PM

BigDave

Sorry if it wasn't clear but a handful of people here try and portray Alien Covenant as profound and thoughtful with powerful and novel thematic concepts and I was simply saying just because you make the creator creation rebellion riff your not in that camp. 

As to robots turning on their creators thats been done to death in science fiction and so not only is A C not profound it is highly derivative. Even the Embryos cannot be allowed to germinate or all hell will break lose is a straight lift from Enterprise and "The Augments" and Trek dealt with genetic enhancement back in the 60's. 

So even if its a cracking story fizzing with excitement (which it isn't )the ideas behind it are not. Even the attempt to connect it with the Shelley and modern Prometheus vibe does not work because there is no circumspection with David. 

What makes Bladerunner 2049 compelling is we are never quite sure and the exploration of the fear of humanity. Indeed the whole issue of synthetic apartheid is dealt with in a genuinely thought fun and emotional way.

So I get that your trying to explain what Ridley was trying to do and explain it thematically to T&D but the more central point of Thoughts&Dreams is the character this all hinges on David is not relatable enough nor are the protagonists. In Prometheus David was fascinating we were discovering because he has to hold the story together in Covenant he is simply a series of manoeuvres which lead to only one conclusion he is a made robot. 

Now lets look at how much more interesting the characters could have been and really surprised us.

Elizabeth turns bad. Noomi wanted to explore this idea what if she is seduced by the Alien Mutagen and becomes the antagonist. This tory of this profoundly christian believer under going a fall would ahve echoed the much larger fall of the Engineers.

David seeks a soul. In order to deal with what is existence David redeemed and healed by Elizabeth like Ryan Gosling in Bladerunner seeks redemption but  doesn't actually realise it.

So both characters go in the opposite direction and discover Paradise which is a mechanistic conceit which David discovers and it turns out that the reason why the Engineers wanted to destroy us is because we turned from believing they were the Gods and began 2017 years ago a quest for a God belief which was existential and non materialistic. Powerful themes quite a simple story but every element a twist to up the thoughtfulness of the original intention of the prequels the search for our creators.

PS The Xenomorph is merely a relic of the Engineers sub creative meddling fusing mechanics, human DNA and the big question the mutagen a punishment from..........    

Michelle Johnston

Nov-10-2017 8:57 PM

There are some corrections required to my post but I can not get back in and edit. Can someone who runs the site fix this please.

Michelle Johnston

Nov-10-2017 8:58 PM

Something went wrong, your session either expired during your edit or you do not have permission to edit this post. Please contact a member of staff or one of our forum moderators for help.

This is the message which comes up when I press edit.

 

BioDegradable

Nov-11-2017 1:11 AM

Hi Michelle, I don't think you will be able to edit your post - I had a post That I could never edit as well.

 

Just post a new one containing all the things you wanted say that would completely obsolete you other post.

 

Also, having watched BR2049, and if I am not mistaken on your view of the way A:C treated the Prometheus, which was, I think, a rather unsatisfying way of dealing with the set-up of the topics in the P, which is something I believe we share, I wanted to ask your views about BR sequel and if you talked about your ideas it.

 

I am afraid this is somewhat off topic here. If it is, you guys let me know, ok?

 

Do you think this is possible: "Mariette is the Mary Magdalene, she is the Holy Grail everyone is looking for "

The cues are subtle, look for yourselves:

  • The movie starts with a close up shot of an eye of a female with green color and blonde looking lashes.
  • Another, quite subtle but remarkable hint: recall the scene where Joi invites Mariette and there is this curious dialog between Mariette, Joi and K where she says: "We have a very special lady here" and initially K is looking at Joi but Mariette insists and turns K's head to her. Mariette knows she is special and she knows Joi can't be special because Joi is an artificial pleasure model.
  • Mariette is the one dropping casually the phrase : "you don't like real girls" to K.
  • Mariette recognizes the tree.
  • Mariette recognizes the horse.
  • Mariette is amongst the revolting rogue bunch.
  • Deckard when probed by Wallace rejects reincarnated Rachael saying she had green eyes. Of course he knows that Rachael eyes were not green. However, it is a hint to us, viewers.
  • Stelline can't be the child because suppose she was the child and she was put into orphanage and locked out from the others because of her genetic disorder. Hence she couldn't have had those memories of green vegetation, forests, insects and all the rest of it because she literally grew up in a greenhouse, that is plastic jar. She couldn't have experienced those impressions in details. She was instead implanted with those memories herself. Whose memories are those? Well, someone's who lived long before the blackout happened and has seen that world with flora and fauna still intact.
  • It is her that saves K gracefully, as if by chance, by planting the bug. It is her face K sees when he opens his eye.
  • While Joi and K relation was sweet, we know what JOI stands for, so what is more "real" what JOI offered or what Mariette gifted K, ie, the real experience, probably for free. By JOI's own admission Mariette "is real".
  • It is much safer to disguise their child as a promiscuous prostitute, this way more of the rebels can actually see her without compromising the secrecy and more of them can see the miracle.
  • and just like it was rumored about Mary Magdalene, Mariette was a prostitute.

Michelle Johnston

Nov-12-2017 6:12 AM

BioDegradable

Thank you for your observations about editing.

Bladerunner 2049 hijacks Prometheus 2 

Michael Green was tasked with writing P 2 and I have a real strong sense that the structure of Bladerunner 2049 and its beats follow his vision for P 2. I wonder whether Ridley not only side stepped the issue of directing both films but gave Michael the chance to run with his structure for P2 on BR2049. That idea then allows us to look at cooked, cremated and very rare films. 

P2 was to follow the notion of "the search for our creators" our beginning Michael and tuther guy Paglen wrote a treatment which involved one other protagonist being rumoured and multiple Davids (I think Joi plays out some of the multiple David potential). What they did was turn it into who created the Xenomorph ? whereas Bladerunner does not deal with the beginning it deals with the middle or end of mankind what is existence ?

This question of what is existence is dealt with in a much more sophisticated way in Bladerunner because it deals with consciousness and relative morality something which Davids portrayal squeezes the life out of and the pun is intended.

There are two massive gets in BR2049 the notion that a synthetic can create and the way in which such creation can offer shared consciousness. The gift of Christ a miraculous birth was the creation of a shared morality and conscience he invested and revealed himself to Mary Magdalene and the disciples. The audacious proposition of BR2049 that a synthetic can create and literally share consciousness, that for me is the message of Stelline. You pose the question which direction is that coming from who is the beginning and whom are being shared with. You offer a compelling answer. I am also curious about Luv and her physical appearance and intervention before the dam needs careful consideration. 

My honest answer is when I begin a much closer acquaintance with BR2049 like Prometheus more will be revealed and I welcome further discussion with you.            

To bring all of these issues together Prometheus was pulling in the direction of the Xenomoprh being a bi product of a much bigger story a side issue. At 62 thats my view of where it should stay and at 82 Ridley Scott knows the same. The reason David is the creator of the Xenomorph is not because he wanted to make a film about A I, though that is what AC looks like, its because he had to get the beast on the screen having somehow come to the conclusion that was why Prometheus received mixed reviews and to head off the Aliens retread from Blomkamp. Given the endless request for pursuing Xenomorph stories amongst fandom I have some sympathy with the latter reasoning but am disappointed he did not see the real reason Prometheus received mixed reviews. 

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-13-2017 9:23 AM

BigDave:

 

OK so we have Ash, Bishop, and Call if we are talking about the role of AI in the franchise. However there used to be a balance between the monsters, humans, and AI and usually they got a kind of good mix. Right now they do not only sacrifice good human characters but also the various monsters at least the Xenos so most of the focus is on AI and that gets boring quick.

 

You mention Ripley but we also have characters like Clemens, Parker, Lambert, Golic, Dallas, and Hicks for example. Even though they are not at the center of the stage they are important to the story because they severe their purpose with the screen time that they have because they are somewhat well written and a lot better than those in Prometheus and AC.

 

"The Story and Philopshy RS is trying to cover is not quite so much AI, but Creation, and what makes someone/something a GOD.  The idea they was trying to cover with the Prequels are that Mankind was not the Product of Evolution by basic Life Forms Billions of years ago, and we are not created by some Magical GOD being."

 

Alright I can see that but never the less they spend too little time on interesting characters which in turn ruins the otherwise somewhat interesting idea of creation, self-awareness and what ever he is trying to tell us about. If they don't get the characters right or at least some of them then there is no reason for me to care about the themes how ever interesting those themes in themselves are.

 

As far as the theory of mind and AI is concerned that is a topic that I think is interesting but it isn't something that I am looking for when I watch an alien related movie. If that would be things that I would find interesting I would look for another movie of or maybe read a book. I am not interested in that as far as the Alien franchise is concerned.

 

"Its a Plot/Idea about when we create AI and a Synthetic Humanoids to the point they are virtually indistinguishable from a Human, and yet are Superior in Every way... The only thing that limits them is their Programing/AI  where they are created to Serve..."



I see what you mean but when they focus too much on the AI side and less on the human side it becomes boring and it doesn't make me more interested in exploring the AI side of it, more like the opposite since I now tend to associate artificial intelligence with an underwhelming movie. Maybe I could read about it in a book but it doesn't encourage me to watch more movies about that topic.



"When a AI looks like a Human, has Human Emotions, Memories and Experiences and then views themselves as not just being a Machine...      What is the difference then between a Human and Machine?  Only that we have a SOUL..."

 

They are not biological beings. To me this an obvious part, maybe it isn't to others. Of course they can be made to look like humans but they are not and do not function in the same way because they are artificial. Now if they have feelings and so on bit are not biological then their dreams and so on are artificial. Maybe Scott in his ideas about afterlife or what ever have forgot about that simple fact.

 

"Or do we?    Do we really pass on to higher pane of existence when we Die, do we have a Spirit, or when we Die are we just Dust.... if this is the case then what difference is AI to Human?  I feel these are the Questions RS was trying to explore..    A Soul could be how kind of heart  a person is, their Moral Compass a kind and empathetic person would be considered to have a GOOD SOUL"

 

OK, but I don't watch alien movies for that kind of thing. If they want to ask questions about that they could build the movie like a round-table discussion and market it like that. I am not looking for that in an alien movie. Maybe they could make an alien movie based on it but it seems it me that it is if not impossible then at least very difficult because in the first movie it was a lot like a slasher in space and to me it asked about the idea of being human and the human place in the universe in a lot more interesting way (and indirectly about AI).

 

To me a soul could be translated to psyche and it is always something that works on a higher mental level and that is something that is connected to humans as biological beings so the mental could work a s a organ but a mental organ. AI doesn't have that so they can't have a soul. My answer would probably be that if I would discuss something like that with someone.

 

"So what RS is trying to do is suggest when AI becomes so Advanced and Sentient, then all that separates them from a Human apart from being Superior to us, is that its considered Humans have a Spiritual Soul, a After Life... and RS with Prometheus and the plans they had.. seems to be asking the Question...  do we really have a SOUL is there really a AFTER-LIFE because if not, then there is nothing we have that a Synthetic does not."



I see that but I disagree and I still don't think that a movie tied to the Alien universe should be about it. Leave that to other movies that probably could do so in a more interesting way.



A hubris of creation and the Xeno sure but I still think that it was wrong to let David be the creator of it since he is now a mad android with possible Hitler-esque dreams (remember his lines about mankind as a dying specie). Sure the Engineers are not nice either but I would rather have the Xenos tied to them and not David which makes more sense when you think about the crashed ship and its pilot in Alien. I would rather have the Engineers as those that made mankind and we misbehave so they send the Xeno one us, it would make more sense when explaining the dead pilot in the chair and also that would be more interesting than putting in all this AI stuff.



"But indeed a lot of these kinds of Plot are something that is covered in Blade Runner and so the Question should be why explore these in the Franchise, when it should be about the Xenomorph."



Not only about the Xeno but about well-written human characters that are finding themselves in situations that they are badly equipped for handling. To me this is the central theme in the Alien movies and those that are related to it. It is not about the Xeno per se, it is there to make the movie about the human experience work.



"The Reason RS went for the Xenomorph being a creation of David is to touch upon the Hubris of Creation, and so in Hindsight the Engineers made TWO massive Errors, 1) To Create us, 2) To Create something so Horrific in order to Destroy us."



That was a mistake because it was still too much about the AI part and to make David the supposed creator of the Xeno just made it worse because there were so many other ways to do that, ideas that I think would be more interesting. I hope that they still make it so he made a version of the original one, let the Engineers be the original creators but I am afraid that Scott will stick with the very unsatisfying version that David created the original. Hopefully they will change it now since people reacted to Alien Covenant the way they did, it would be nice if they would remove the most stupid developments that AC gave us.

 

"… the Synthetic David, who in a great Hubris actually can Control the Engineers Bio-Weapon and Evolve it and end up using it against the Engineers and then intending to use a Creation created from it to use against all Mankind and Humanoids.  Ridley Scott felt this was the Big theme to explore."

 

It still gives too much importance to the AI, I don't like that. Scott might think that it is something interesting but I don't. At least one can say that it was not well executed on screen. To me the AI angle is getting cooked, and that happens at a fast tempo.

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-13-2017 9:25 AM

Big Dave:

OK so we have Ash, Bishop, and Call if we are talking about the role of AI in the franchise. However there used to be a balance between the monsters, humans, and AI and usually they got a kind of good mix. Right now they do not only sacrifice good human characters but also the various monsters at least the Xenos so most of the focus is on AI and that gets boring quick.

You mention Ripley but we also have characters like Clemens, Parker, Lambert, Golic, Dallas, and Hicks for example. Even though they are not at the center of the stage they are important to the story because they severe their purpose with the screen time that they have because they are somewhat well written and a lot better than those in Prometheus and AC.

"The Story and Philopshy RS is trying to cover is not quite so much AI, but Creation, and what makes someone/something a GOD.   The idea they was trying to cover with the Prequels are that Mankind was not the Product of Evolution by basic Life Forms Billions of years ago, and we are not created by some Magical GOD being."

Alright I can see that but never the less they spend too little time on interesting characters which in turn ruins the otherwise somewhat interesting idea of creation, self-awareness and what ever he is trying to tell us about. If they don't get the characters right or at least some of them then there is no reason for me to care about the themes how ever interesting those themes in themselves are.

As far as the theory of mind and AI is concerned that is a topic that I think is interesting but it isn't something that I am looking for when I watch an alien related movie. If that would be things that I would find interesting I would look for another movie of or maybe read a book. I am not interested in that as far as the Alien franchise is concerned.

"Its a Plot/Idea about when we create AI and a Synthetic Humanoids to the point they are virtually indistinguishable from a Human, and yet are Superior in Every way... The only thing that limits them is their Programing/AI   where they are created to Serve..."

I see what you mean but when they focus too much on the AI side and less on the human side it becomes boring and it doesn't make me more interested in exploring the AI side of it, more like the opposite since I now tend to associate artificial intelligence with an underwhelming movie. Maybe I could read about it in a book but it doesn't encourage me to watch more movies about that topic.

"When a AI looks like a Human, has Human Emotions, Memories and Experiences and then views themselves as not just being a Machine...       What is the difference then between a Human and Machine?   Only that we have a SOUL..."

They are not biological beings. To me this an obvious part, maybe it isn't to others. Of course they can be made to look like humans but they are not and do not function in the same way because they are artificial. Now if they have feelings and so on bit are not biological then their dreams and so on are artificial. Maybe Scott in his ideas about afterlife or what ever have forgot about that simple fact.

"Or do we?     Do we really pass on to higher pane of existence when we Die, do we have a Spirit, or when we Die are we just Dust.... if this is the case then what difference is AI to Human?   I feel these are the Questions RS was trying to explore..     A Soul could be how kind of heart   a person is, their Moral Compass a kind and empathetic person would be considered to have a GOOD SOUL"

OK, but I don't watch alien movies for that kind of thing. If they want to ask questions about that they could build the movie like a round-table discussion and market it like that. I am not looking for that in an alien movie. Maybe they could make an alien movie based on it but it seems it me that it is if not impossible then at least very difficult because in the first movie it was a lot like a slasher in space and to me it asked about the idea of being human and the human place in the universe in a lot more interesting way (and indirectly about AI).

To me a soul could be translated to psyche and it is always something that works on a higher mental level and that is something that is connected to humans as biological beings so the mental could work a s a organ but a mental organ. AI doesn't have that so they can't  have a soul. My answer would probably be that if I would discuss something like that with someone.

"So what RS is trying to do is suggest when AI becomes so Advanced and Sentient, then all that separates them from a Human apart from being Superior to us, is that its considered Humans have a Spiritual Soul, a After Life... and RS with Prometheus and the plans they had.. seems to be asking the Question...   do we really have a SOUL is there really a AFTER-LIFE because if not, then there is nothing we have that a Synthetic does not."

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-13-2017 9:27 AM

I see that but I disagree and I still don't think that a movie tied to the Alien universe should be about it. Leave that to other movies that probably could do so in a more interesting way.



A hubris of creation and the Xeno sure but I still think that it was wrong to let David be the creator of it since he is now a mad android with possible Hitler-esque dreams (remember his lines about mankind as a dying specie). Sure the Engineers are not nice either but I would rather have the Xenos tied to them and not David which makes more sense when you think about the crashed ship and its pilot in Alien. I would rather have the Engineers as those that made mankind and we misbehave so they send the Xeno one us, it would make more sense when explaining the dead pilot in the chair and also that would be more interesting than putting in all this AI stuff.



"But indeed a lot of these kinds of Plot are something that is covered in Blade Runner and so the Question should be why explore these in the Franchise, when it should be about the Xenomorph."



Not only about the Xeno but about well-written human characters that are finding themselves in situations that they are badly equipped for handling. To me this is the central theme in the Alien movies and those that are related to it. It is not about the Xeno per se, it is there to make the movie about the human experience work.



"The Reason RS went for the Xenomorph being a creation of David is to touch upon the Hubris of Creation, and so in Hindsight the Engineers made TWO massive Errors, 1) To Create us, 2) To Create something so Horrific in order to Destroy us."



That was a mistake because it was still too much about the AI part and to make David the supposed creator of the Xeno just made it worse because there were so many other ways to do that, ideas that I think would be more interesting. I hope that they still make it so he made a version of the original one, let the Engineers be the original creators but I am afraid that Scott will stick with the very unsatisfying version that David created the original. Hopefully they will change it now since people reacted to Alien Covenant the way they did, it would be nice if they would remove the most stupid developments that AC gave us.

 

"… the Synthetic David, who in a great Hubris actually can Control the Engineers Bio-Weapon and Evolve it and end up using it against the Engineers and then intending to use a Creation created from it to use against all Mankind and Humanoids.  Ridley Scott felt this was the Big theme to explore."

 

It still gives too much importance to the AI, I don't like that. Scott might think that it is something interesting but I don't. At least one can say that it was not well executed on screen. To me the AI angle is getting cooked, and that happens at a fast tempo.

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-13-2017 9:28 AM

I see that but I disagree and I still don't think that a movie tied to the Alien universe should be about it. Leave that to other movies that probably could do so in a more interesting way.

A hubris of creation and the Xeno sure but I still think that it was wrong to let David be the creator of it since he is now a mad android with possible Hitler-esque dreams (remember his lines about mankind as a dying specie). Sure the Engineers are not nice either but I would rather have the Xenos tied to them and not David which makes more sense when you think about the crashed ship and its pilot in Alien. I would rather have the Engineers as those that made mankind and we misbehave so they send the Xeno one us, it would make more sense when explaining the dead pilot in the chair and also that would be more interesting than putting in all this AI stuff.

"But indeed a lot of these kinds of Plot are something that is covered in Blade Runner and so the Question should be why explore these in the Franchise, when it should be about the Xenomorph."

Not only about the Xeno but about well-written human characters that are finding themselves in situations that they are badly equipped for handling. To me this is the central theme in the Alien movies and those that are related to it. It is not about the Xeno per se, it is there to make the movie about the human experience work.

"The Reason RS went for the Xenomorph being a creation of David is to touch upon the Hubris of Creation, and so in Hindsight the Engineers made TWO massive Errors, 1) To Create us, 2) To Create something so Horrific in order to Destroy us."

That was a mistake because it was still too much about the AI part and to make David the supposed creator of the Xeno just made it worse because there were so many other ways to do that, ideas that I  think would be more interesting. I hope that they still make it so he made a version of the original one, let the Engineers be the original creators but I am afraid that Scott will stick with the very unsatisfying version that David created the original. Hopefully they will change it now since people reacted to Alien Covenant the way they did, it would be nice if they would remove the most stupid developments that AC gave us.

"… the Synthetic David, who in a great Hubris actually can Control the Engineers Bio-Weapon and Evolve it and end up using it against the Engineers and then intending to use a Creation created from it to use against all Mankind and Humanoids.   Ridley Scott felt this was the Big theme to explore."

It still gives too much importance to the AI, I don't like that. Scott might think that it is something interesting but I don't. At least one can say that it was not well executed on screen. To me the AI angle is getting cooked, and that happens at a fast tempo.

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-13-2017 9:30 AM

Michelle J:

"So I get that your trying to explain what Ridley was trying to do and explain it thematically to T&D but the more central point of Thoughts&Dreams  is the character this all hinges on David is not relatable enough nor are the protagonists. In Prometheus David was fascinating we were discovering because he has to hold the story together in Covenant he is simply a series of manoeuvres which lead to only one conclusion he is a made robot."  

Exactly this, it sums it up in a short and understandable way I think. Failed human characters as far as the writing is concerned and a robot with fascist tendencies don't make a good movie. When I read this about a robot with fascist tendencies it sounds really horrible but that is how he is in the movie which is a failure as far as character writing goes.

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