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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

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New Perspectives: Devising the new Xenomorph for Alien: Covenant

New Perspectives: Devising the new Xenomorph for Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant has been out for a while now and although the film attempted to answer some questions posed in Prometheus, it still left fans with a multitude of questions still in need of answering. Monster Legacy have posted up a new article detailing some additional insight to the film's approach to the Xenomorph's creation and its association with the David character. Although much of what is shared has already been discussed at length by the community of fans here on Alien-Covenant.com, it's good to gain an additional perspective by those who actually worked on the film. Below are some excerpts and some of the images associated with the piece. Feel free to let us know your thoughts on their take in the comments section below!

In Alien: Covenant, the origins of the Alien are revealed as the result of David’s tinkering with the Engineers’ bioweapon, the black fluid. “We took it into a different direction,” Scott said in an interview. “The Engineers didn’t make him [the Alien], David made him; which I thought was far more interesting.” He also added: “he designed this motherfucker — rather than it came from the Engineers it came from him, but he needed to use their black deadly cleansing lotion.” Straying away from the original concept, the Alien thus became a reflection of its creator: a physical embodiment of David’s depraved, repressed sexuality — in both its life cycle and its appearance. The creature is the final result of the deranged android’s hybridisation experiments.

Shortly after Oram’s impregnation, a chestburster violently emerges from his chest. Like the Bambi-burster from Alien³, this chestburster has fully-developed upper and lower limbs. “It was based on a sketch by Ridley himself,” said Johansen, “and it’s quite different in its movement and look to the original Alienchestburster.” The creature, sculpted by Dominic Hailstone, was built as a rod puppet moulded from a sculpture by Dominic Hailstone, and endowed with an internal armature devised by Greg McKee. Translucent silicone was employed to give multilayered trasparency, with muscle, organ and bone layers.

In devising the new Alien, Scott and crew did reference the original creature suit, but decided to go for a more organic texture, which replaced Giger’s signature biomechanical aesthetic. In particular, the Museo della Specola in Florence, Italy provided key reference for the new design in the form of the wax ‘ècorché’ anatomical sculptures. “It was surprisingly difficult to extract that naturalistic quality out of the xenomorph,” noted O’Sullivan, “but that was a hurdle that we had to overcome, because that’s what Ridley wanted. The end result is more raw. It’s crazier, and a lot nastier.”

You can read the entire write-up over at Monster Legacy!

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51 Fan responses to New Perspectives: Devising the new Xenomorph for Alien: Covenant

BigDave

Feb-04-2018 10:25 AM

Thanks for the Share Chris...

I know this is going to BUG some fans, but it appears its the way RS is intending to go, HOWEVER with Disney now owning the Franchise Rights, anything can be changed, but i am not sure they will completely dis-credit what the Prequels have set up.

We have to WONDER if RS was allowed to Continue as he wishes, if the differences we now have will ever be addressed, from what ALIEN showed.

*Egg Chamber Size in Relation to Derelict (if its part of the Cargo)

*Space Jockey Size in Relation to the Engineers.

*Atheistic differences of the Derelict and Juggernaughts

*More Organic Less Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph.

Or if we would just have to suspend belief and just accept these as OVERSIGHTS

But who knows what Disney will do and what direction they will take and even IF David created the Xenomorph Origins, i hope they go some way to EVOLVE the Aesthetic to get to HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Big Chap, and introduce a different Race who are Taller, and their Ships more Aesthetically different to MATCH with what is Different in ALIEN compared to ALIEN: Covenant (Engineer/Space Jockey, Derelict/Juggernaught and Xenomorph).

 

Svanya

Feb-04-2018 12:51 PM

Ridley sure likes his sexually repressed androids... First Ash, now David. lol

Lawrence of Arabia

Feb-04-2018 1:28 PM

"The more organic quality (Alien Design) was explained by the crew as part of a story point of this creation essentially being a prototype of the original Alien. Johansen said: “those biomechanical elements are sort of what makes it the xenomorph, but due to the storyline, this Alien predates that. Ours is almost like a flayed body — it has impossibly thin limbs, with the musculature and ribs on the outside. It was a daunting task, because it’s such a legacy to live up to. We are creature effects guys, and the xenomorph is the creature.” In the Monster Legacy interview, he also remarked: “the designs of the creatures were to be more animalistic, more raw or primal and far less refined than the biomechanical xenomorph we know from Alien.”

Called it!

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-05-2018 10:28 AM

I think that the idea that David did the original Xenos is a disaster, Scott is totally wrong about that. At least the Engineers played a role by making the goo so they are indirectly responsible for the Xeno but I hope that hey make it so David re-created this which is a better thing.

“… the Alien thus became a reflection of its creator: a physical embodiment of David’s depraved, repressed sexuality...”

Which is to reduce the interesting thing about it because now it is humans making a robot, which makes a deadly weapon. I would rather have the Engineers making the Xeno but at least they made the goo if Ridley does not change his mind about it.

“The creature is the final result of the deranged android’s hybridisation experiments.”

Which is boring, I hope that they change that, they got to in my mind at least.

Charza

Feb-05-2018 2:27 PM

To me the ADF novel of Alien Covenant, together with the amazing art of Khang Le, seems like the way to go from here, as they have so much potential. 
I still don't think David is the ultimate creator of the xx121 Xenomorph species.
His tinkering resulted in some strain of the creature, and his knowledge could definitely be key to Weyland Yutani knowing of creatures like this out there, but it still is a different thing. 
Similar, but different, just like the Neomorph and the Deacon.  

Even within the movie releases and supplemental materials there are still a lot of clues that things can not be brought down to just David. 

1. On the blu ray release of Prometheus there are "The Peter Weyland Files". These files consist of the promotional clips that were made to be part of the Prometheus experience. Each clip has its own log entry written by Peter Weyland himself. 
In this case the "Quiet Eye" entry is very interesting as Peter Weyland writes this and I quote: 

"As fate would have it, Shaw and Holloway's interest in Zeta 2 Reticuli has proven to be mutually beneficial. While the good doctors rely on ancient carvings and primitive cave paintings, my science division's own long range scans have recently detected a faint, almost imperceptible signal emanating from one of the lesser moons in that system. And contrary to the findings of Shaw and Holloway, which target LV-223 as our primary site of interest, our findings suggest the point of origin could actually be the moon LV-426."

This ladies and gentlemen confirms that the derelict signal was already there prior to the Prometheus mission, and as we know, that derelict on LV-426 had cargo spaces full of eggs which lay dormant under a special stasis field. 

2. David is known to be incorrect in several occasions, and he is also known to lie. He mistakenly identifies the Ozymandias poem as written by Byron, while it was written by Shelley. He also lies about Shaw and her fate and his role in the downfall of the engineer city.
He is not the ultimate creator, it simply isn't supported by Prometheus. 

3. The ending suggests that David was somehow in touch with Weyland Yutani all along. Why would he still have a special access code which grants him special clearance if he was truly presumed to be a lost asset by the company. That just doesn't make sense. 

 

 

BigDave

Feb-05-2018 2:56 PM

Indeed Charza we also had the Weyland Viral site for Prometheus that gave some insight too, however as none of these are in the Theatrical Releases then any extras can be removed from Canon, and changed, i think RS believes having David Create it is far more interesting.

@Thoughts_Dreams

If RS gets his input then i think he will stick with the DAVID creates the Xenomorph Plot, HOWEVER... there is a way to move forwards with this, its a idea i have with my ideas for how i would continue the Franchise and ideas i have with my TWO sequel ideas.

Engineers Obtained the Black Goo, via indirect, accidental or as punishment with something related to the Parasitic Life Form,  The Engineers too a great interest in this (Fresco Creature) and began to Experiment with this Organism that had infected the Engineers (much like David did with maybe the results of the Pathogen on Planet 4) Then the Engineers experimented on this, tinkering with it here and there UNTIL they Achieved the DEACON in the Mural, the Engineers saw this as Perfection and Sacrificed it to make the Substance in the BLACK GOO.

David took this Black Goo, Bombarded the Engineers and from the Results, he also began what those Engineers did on LV-223 and that is to experiment and Cross Hybrid various Experiments UNTIL David reached his own PERFECTION the Xenomorph.

This places us at the end of ALIEN COVENANT and so next i would have the Engineers or related Race Turn up and Discover Davids Xenomorph and see this as being MORE PERFECT than what they had Worshiped/Created on LV-223.   These BEINGS take Davids Xenomorph to LV-223 to begin to EVOLVE/PERFECT it even more and the Result is the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph, but the Engineers/Space Jockey suffer a GREAT Hubris for Attempting to Perfect and Control Davids Creation.

So we have LV-223 Engineers either Punished, or suffer a Punishment/Hubris for experimenting with the Black Goo on a Parasite they encountered, the end Result the Mural and Black Goo, David plays the MIDDLE MAN in Evolving the Engineers work to get to his Xenomorph and the SPACE JOCKEY then Evolve this further leading to those Eggs on the Derelict.

THIS ^^^^ is the route i would go, with a few Twists, and i HOPE its the route they take.

Without David there would be NO Xenomorph, without the Engineers there would be NO Black Goo that David uses to Create his Xenomorph but WITHOUT the Space Jockey there would be NO Evolution to Davids Xenomorph to get to the Bio-Mechanical Version, which the Space Jockey uses David, or David has to Sacrifice/Lose something important to him  (A Synthetic Construct) to be the Final Piece of the Jigsaw.

ignorantGuy

Feb-05-2018 7:56 PM

This whole explaining the Xenomorph pathos is stupid and disrespectful towards Dan O'Bannon first vision. A rapist android in space might be horrific, but it would not make it Lovecraftian horror, which tellies on the unknown and on the explainable/unknowable. That's why Lovecrafts "gods" are amalgamations of eyes of tentacles because they don't make sense in the real world. Trying to explain how the Xeno can see even if he has no eyes (as comment on an other thread) or why it raped Lambert in the first one (or why it's life cycle has a rape phase) can only degrade the monster and it's effectiveness.

PS. Why would anyone in their right mind built a synth with sexuality? Have they even got sex organs? Did they even program them to feel orgasms? Can this mechanism be hacked to feel it constantly? Can female synth have babies? For me this is very hentai.

PS2. As I said already I don't like the Xenomorph (and don't care where they come from as it does not matter) and I watch AC only because of Prometheus and it's promises at the end.

brego

Feb-06-2018 12:11 AM

Over thought and under delivered. The story arch is damaged beyond repair. So many opportunities lost, squandered and ruined. So disappointing that Ridley couldn't simply follow his own cannon. Too many plot holes. Too many departures from Giger. Too many changes from the original (perfect in my eyes) story. Too many over thought tangents. Too many disappointments.  Sorry. Ruined.

Charza

Feb-06-2018 5:42 AM

I think many people are still on the wrong train of thought. 

@BigDave

The viral videos, the Weyland Corporation webpage which is still somewhat there at https://secure.weylandindustries.com all served as supplements to the movie. 

The either introduce us to plot dynamics, or characters, and they do it in such a way that the movies don't have to deal with that. 
Quiet Eye gave us a bit of backstory on Shaw & Holloway's efforts to find funding for their expedition, and the rigorous psychological profiling that was done by Yutani Corporation in order to understand people's motivations.
Happy Birthday David introduced us to the character of David, and the Peter Weyland TED Speech showed us a pivotal part of Sir Peter Weyland's life and his motivations as a character. It gave us lots of necessary backstory into this world which we otherwise would not have seen. They have been essential within the scope of world building and setting up several plot threads. None of this is actually in the movie, but it is important for the movie nonetheless. 

Clips like Last Supper, Phobos and The Crossing were similar for Alien Covenant. They set up the world and gave us bits of background information not present within the scope of the final movie, but the movie still relied heavily on those elements.  
With your reasoning, one might consider "The Crossing" to be non Canon simply because we don't see certain scenes from that little clip within the final movie of Alien Covenant. 

I think that whenever information is "Official" it can be considered canon.
Why otherwise release it, if it has no meaning?

The Peter Weyland files are part of the official blu ray release of Prometheus, so for me there is no reason at all to consider them non canon. 

With that stated; Prometheus simply doesn't support the storyline that the xeno creature in Alien Covenant is an actual "protomorph" and thus prototype of the creature the Nostromo later encounters. 
The alien signal which comes from the LV-426 derelict was already there prior to the Prometheus leaving for Zeta 2 Reticuli which means the eggs were there as well, since they were in the statisfield contained cargo clusters. 
I'd rather say that the xeno creature in Alien Covenant is yet another strain of creature which came about by David's tinkering with the genetics of the black goo and thus closely resembles something which already was part of the Engineer culture. 

The engineers were well aware of what the black goo was capable of as the murals in Prometheus showed us several familiar elements, like for example an egg held by these webbed hands which look like the hands of a Xenomorph. 

 

Critters5

Feb-06-2018 5:43 AM

Agreed Brego

Charza

Feb-06-2018 6:02 AM

By the way, as the picture in the article actually shows, the Alien Covenant xeno actually looks more similar to the bug type xeno's we encounter in Aliens. 

It might very well explain the difference we see between the xeno creature in Alien and Aliens. 

Lawrence of Arabia

Feb-06-2018 8:33 AM

Several themes found in Lovecraft's writings are considered to be components of a "Lovecraftian" work:

  • Anti-anthropocentrismmisanthropy in general. Lovecraft's works tend not to focus on characterization of humans, in line with his view of humanity's insignificant place in the universe, and the general Modernist trend of literature at the time of his writings.
  • Preoccupation with viscerate texture. The horror features of Lovecraft's stories tend to involve protean semi-gelatinous substances, such as slime, as opposed to standard horror elements such as blood, bones, or corpses.
  • Antiquarian writing style. Even when dealing with up-to-date technology, Lovecraft tended to use anachronisms as well as old-fashioned words when dealing with such things. For example, he used the term "man of science" rather than the modern word, "scientist" and often spelled "show" as "shew" and "lantern" as "lanthorne." Lovecraft was an admitted Anglophile, and frequently used British spelling, as in the title of "The Colour Out of Space", his most reprinted and filmed story.
  • Detachment. Lovecraftian heroes (both in original writings and in more modern adaptations) tend to be socially isolated, reclusive individuals, usually with an academic or scholarly intent to compensate for social shortcomings.
  • Helplessness and hopelessness. Although Lovecraftian heroes may occasionally deal a "setback" to malignant forces, their victories are temporary, and they usually pay a price for it. Otherwise, subjects often find themselves completely unable to simply run away, instead driven by some other force to their desperate end.
  • Unanswered questions. Characters in Lovecraft's stories rarely if ever fully understand what is happening to them, and often go insane if they try.
  • Sanity's fragility and vulnerability. Characters in many of Lovecraft's stories are unable to cope mentally with the extraordinary and almost incomprehensible truths they witness, hear or discover. The strain of trying to cope, as Lovecraft often illustrates, is impossible to bear and insanity takes hold.
  • Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.

Alien Covenant was a very Lovecraftian origin story for the Xenomorphs (confirmed by both the writer and the director of the film to be the origin) in line with films like 2001 A Space Odyssey. There is still so much we don't know about the Engineers or the Pathogen and when David "learned of their ways" he went insane. David is alive, more so then a toaster, and with sentient life comes the bigger questions and the capacity to want to procreate, so it makes sense that he's become sexually repressed especially when he falls for women like Shaw or Daniels. The whole arc of these prequels reflects the Xenomorph perfectly in that in order to create one must first destroy, especially when one is struggling to stay on top of the food chain. A perfect survivor. It's a shame people aren't taking to these narratives as it's the best the franchise has had to offer since the first ALIEN and is more in line with Dan O'Bannon's original origin of the creatures but everyone is crazy for a simple bug hunt. 

Critters5

Feb-06-2018 8:35 AM

Lawrence I think people are just more upset with the piss poor character development and rushed narrative. People weren't upset that it wasn't a bug hunt they were upset because the movie sucked. 

Critters5

Feb-06-2018 8:38 AM

...and lousy special effects

Lawrence of Arabia

Feb-06-2018 8:55 AM

Critters5 Lovecraftian Horror tends not to focus on the characterization humans and 2001 A Space Odyssey didn't have compelling characters either, it's more about the narrative, thematics, and spectacle. I disagree with your assessment but we are free to feel differently, I thought Covenant was awesome and I'm interested in having the mythology further fleshed out. A problem I think people are having is that the film wasn't scary enough to which I somewhat agree so hopefully the next one will sate everyone's appetite.

Critters5

Feb-06-2018 9:28 AM

I just feel it was a squandered opportunity to expand the story told in Prometheus. Felt like a filler track on a CD. But that's my opinion. 

Lawrence of Arabia

Feb-06-2018 11:01 AM

Critters5 I do understand a bit, Covenant did play like a greatest hits of the original Anthology while not doing much new in the way of the Xeno, origin aside and the Neomorph, but I felt that in way was a tribute to the legacy. I also wish they would have built the Engineers more aside from the bombing sequence (which Ridley fought the studio hard for as they were gonna cut it all together) but everyone wanted a more direct Alien prequel with our favorite beast so that's what we got. I would argue that Covenant did expand on Prometheus both narratively and thematically as it still focus' on creation but instead of it being about finding our creators it's about being disappointed with them and surpassing them. Covenant puts the Xeno on the board for further installments so we can get more Xeno/Engineer action as we get closer to the Nostromo, that's how I see it at least.

Critters5

Feb-06-2018 11:08 AM

I just feel like it basically added nothing and took up the time which could have been spent on a meaningful addition to the series which further developed the story-line. It was interesting that David created the xeno but without any experimental scenes the twist affect was lost on the viewers. I would have loved a film centered around his successes and failures culminating with a short shot of the finished Xeno at the end. 

Charza

Feb-06-2018 12:27 PM

Well, Ridley Scott, Jack Paglen and Michael Green really dropped the ball if actually all of them claim that the xeno in Covenant is the first xeno ever. 
I don't think any of those writers actually ever stated this as fact for the franchise.
Ridley Scott certainly has stated that he was intrigued by the idea, and the movie was deliberately made ambiguous in regard of the more lovecraftian themes that they were going for, but still many things are left largely open and unresolved.   

What grinds the gears of lots of fans is the way Alien Covenant felt inconsistent with the already established lore. 
Prometheus had its goofy moments within the scope of the film, but they made really sure that is was actually part of the world in which at least the first Alien movie also took place while also exploring new ground within the setting. 
Alien Covenant actually didn't follow up on any of the setup done in Prometheus other than using the character of David, which in many ways was also a very different character this time around.  

All the OFFICIAL material that came with Prometheus was made in such a way that it was part of the canon, while doing its own thing. 
Like stated before, The Peter Weyland files clearly state that the strange signal from LV-426 was already there even though it was very faint and hard to decipher. This comes from official information, which was released with Prometheus. (And in the Alien movie we learn that this is the derelict which crash landed on Acheron)

This fact alone makes the theory that the xeno in Covenant is the first ever of its kind impossible within the greater and already established canon.  

BigDave

Feb-06-2018 4:41 PM

"With your reasoning, one might consider "The Crossing" to be non Canon simply because we don't see certain scenes from that little clip within the final movie of Alien Covenant."

I can see where you are coming from and i can agree with The Crossing etc.. my point is not really my view or opinion, well not how i like to interpret stuff, just how i feel the Production company have gone.

INDEED we had those clues, but they removed the Viral Website but someone did a Backup, the Original URL just redirected to the Alien Universe Website and Walter Virals, it was like they was removing the Prometheus Marketing from Canon.   So my point was that Ultimately as they go along they can remove what ever they want from Canon... and replace it with what ever they want.

THERE IS NO 100% Proof... in regards to Theatrical.

*David could not/did not create the Xenomorph

*The Derelict/Space Jockey has been on LV-426 for a long long time.

*The company are aware of LV-426 prior to ALIEN

Many more but i am not in the right frame of mind at the moment... via DRINKING lol

I 100% agree they should have considered continuity and lore, i just FEEL they are Re-writing the History and if doing so then some extra clues like the Viral Sites for Prometheus would contradict the route they are taking with Alien Covenant.

So nothing is REALLY Official apart from what is shown in the Movies, by that i dont mean any disrespect i am just saying how they could go, we could get NO Alien movies for 10 years and then they reveal the PREDATOR created the Xenomorph, which would then be a case of NOT having previous clues that Fail to show this, but in how Previous Clues Fail to Disprove this.

I think the Direction they have taken is a bit flawed, as the Clues pointed to a Ancient Event and Ridley Scott even confirmed it, but ALAS when they worked on Alien Covenant they changed their minds.

BigDave

Feb-06-2018 4:47 PM

"This whole explaining the Xenomorph pathos is stupid and disrespectful towards Dan O'Bannon first vision"

I would totally love to see them get back to O'Bannons and Gigers ideas, but its a case of if we will see that...

I agree its a bit odd to have Synthetics Reproduce... but seeing as though RS is running with Sexual Feelings with David, and how the Xenomorph is lacking that Bio-Mechanical Atheistic, i was pondering the introduction of a Female Synthetic Construct, part Organic part Synthetic who turns up and David tries to Seduce to his Side, like he did with Walter but failed.  David would use the same tactics that Satan did with Eve to get her to Eat from the Forbidden Fruit... so David can get her to take his Side, DAVID Finally finds a Female Companion who sees his side.... only she ends up being the QUEEN to his Project, which is something David did not want...  He was willing to use Dr Shaw, and Daniels as he cares not much for Humanity, he cared for Shaw because he felt SHE was DIFFERENT towards him.

So yeah my idea would be that David Falls for a Female Synthetic Construct but she gets infected as she is Part Organic/Synthetic then this SHOEHORNS in the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic.

ignorantGuy

Feb-06-2018 9:07 PM

Lawrence of Arabia

How can you compare to process of gradual enlightenment of humanity in 2001 with the creation of a parasite without morals and culture who only wants to survive in Covenant?

You copying the characteristic of lovecraftian horror does not make for explaining how AC is lovecraftian. Sure w e have an insane character in David, but he's the antagonist, he destroys the Engineers(elder gods my @$$), which judging from AC, in the story's present, are some space hippies. He is said to become insane because of lack of maintenance not because of "learning of their way" (if that is so insanely awful who could they live peacefully on Planet 4?).

The idea that David, a human made synth, created the Lovecratian monster makes the universe pretty much human centric and the Engineers in the moral right to want to destroy them?

David becomes alone by his own hands (Killing Shaw, etc..) not because he is shun be society which is the case with the lovecraftian "hero". His victory over the gods is easy and pretty much final, and he will fall because of his hubris not by some ancient unstoppable power.

Where is the slime (excepting the Protomorph's saliva) in AC?

David is more like the titular character in Herbert West, reanimator the least lovacraftian short story from HP Lovecraft and a spoof of Frankenstein. In honesty, I did felt that AC in parts is a spoof of the Alien series (also there were people who felt this also and said that AC was made to mock the people who wanted Xenomorphs in Prometheus - I don't agree with this however).

How is this story about the created surpassing the creators? The humans are not superior to the Engineers, how managed to survive for millions of years without destroying there own planet and are capable of interstellar flight since God knows when. And why is David superior to humans, he takes notes with quills on scrolls, he mixes and matches DNA of several creatures to make the xenomorph (not design it from scratch and 3d print it, or what ever), he recite poetry which he does not understand. His immortality is also only in his head (as he would have died after Prometheus if it wasn't for Shaw) and he needs periodical checks from humans.

Quite the contrary to 2001, this is the story of sentient life downfall. 

Charza

Feb-07-2018 1:46 AM

@BigDave
I'm afraid you might be right. It seems as if Fox has completely lost sight of the project and its direction and focus.
It doesn't help that for some reason the worst and most lacking script iterations end up to be the final product.  
Had Alien Covenant be more like the official ADF novelisation it would not have been as problematic a movie as it turned out to be. 
The novel is in many ways superior, as it actually resolves several issues that cause gaping plotholes within the context of the movie. 

After the version of Alien Covenant we got, things simply don't make sense any more. It uses elements from Prometheus, but doesn't follow up on it in a satisfying way.
Neither does it tie in with any other pre existing canon up to this point. 
It is there and totally disregards anything that came before.  
With its implications it rather contradicts the themes of Prometheus. 
The movie is also frustrating because it deliberately leaves out any significant or conclusive story elements.

Like Lawrence of Arabia already mentions, it is as if Ridley Scott and Fox were trying to troll the audience. 
And I also agree 100% with Lawrence that this movie isn't smart or lovecraftian or philosophical in any way. 
Even though Ridley Scott and his production team seem to take several influences from literature, poetry and imaginary arts, referencing great artistic achievements of others, doesn't automatically warrant a good movie with substance and depth.

 

ignorantGuy

Feb-07-2018 1:56 AM

@Charza

Lawrence is one of the biggest AC apologists on this site, he is in love with David the android. I was the one how rebuked the lovecraftian themes, as opposed to Lawrence who copy+pasted things from wikipedia to demonstrate how lovecraftian AC is.

Charza

Feb-07-2018 3:10 AM

Yeah I'm sorry, I misread, I meant you red0guy. I 100% agree with you, and not Lawrence. 
I thought the reaction you wrote to Lawrence was written by Lawrence because the name was shown big and green. Shame I can't edit my posts to rectify this. 

Once again, I agree 100% with red0guy and not Lawrence of Arabia. 

Critters5

Feb-07-2018 4:44 AM

Red0guy nailed it on Lawrence lol 

Charza

Feb-07-2018 4:51 AM

Indeed he has! 

BigDave

Feb-07-2018 10:35 AM

"The novel is in many ways superior, as it actually resolves several issues that cause gaping plotholes within the context of the movie."

Alas this always seems to be the case, they have more space to explain stuff in a Novel, the same thing can  be said regarding the Draft for Prometheus, it explained many if the silly moments etc in a more better way.   Sad that some of the more important things are left out when a Movie is Shot.

Regarding the whole Lovecraftian Themes i am not expert on the subject and i do need to read more of his works...

I will kind of agree with some of Lawrences points, but i cant speak for them as far as how Lovecraftian they are it does appear that David felt a Outcast, its implied that he felt he was not treated as equal by most Humans, yet he knows he is Superior.   I would say that he had started to get Emotionally Attached with Dr Shaw, because Emotionally he had very Human Emotions that Evolved over Time and he certainly had some DADDY ISSUES and so after the death of Weyland he was Free, and seeing how Dr Shaw Treated him, he grew fond of her and we can assume they started to build a better relationship.... until David maybe miss-took this as being able to go further than Platonic which could well have been seen as Disturbing by Dr Shaw, and if she rejected his advances this could certainly have a negative effect on his Psychology.  The thing is David is more than a Robot, some people think he is just a Stupid Crazy Robot, but he is a AI with such Advanced Emotions that he is constantly learning and taking on board Influences much as Interactions and Influences can Shape a Child into the kind of Person they will become...    The Problem i think is the AI Circuits and Technology that David is comprised of simply cant handle all this Emotional Input,  and i think this is where MAINTENANCE could have helped.   I think Davids Upbringing, how he felt about Humans, and then Dr Shaw and feeling maybe Betrayed by her, as well as years ALONE and with no Maintenance have all lead to the Way David had become VERY BROKEN. I agree he had become a bit of a Mad Scientist/Dr Frankenstein kind of Character.

I am not so sure we can conclude that Learning the Engineers ways had lead to the way David was however..... i think a lot of what we need to UNDERSTAND as far as David goes, is he is now Free and Sentient and he only has his own Goals/Agenda, i would not be surprised that learning the Engineers ways has led to David conclude these Would be Gods, are nothing of the sort and are just similar to Humans in many ways. I think David has a Godlike Complex, Certainly sees himself as Superior to Engineers and Humans.  He may have learned about the Pathogen and viewed how the Engineers failed to be able to Create Something they cant contain/control as a sign of the Engineers inability to Survive and so as David can see he could make better use of their Pathogen then David would see himself as Superior and even maybe views this all as his Divine Right to Carry on as a Creator himself.

I have to say regarding Davids Creation of the Xenomorph, is interesting on one hand, but not very Lovecraftian  we can see Prometheus and Alien Covenant do maybe touch on these themes a bit, but they are still FAR of as Lovecraftian  as the Derelict/Space Jockey or indeed many of the works that HR Giger has done..

Hopefully we can be introduced to a more Alieny/Giger-esque and Lovecraftian themes in future movies.

ignorantGuy

Feb-08-2018 3:03 AM

I might have exagerated... everybody can like what he wants and should be free to talk about it.

BigDave

Regarding lovacraftian movies have you seen In the Mouth of Madness by Carpenter? Great stuff .... or the Void (I don't like this as much as because of female reproductive organs type horror)...

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-11-2018 8:28 AM

Charza:

Welcome back, I haven’t seen you around here for a long time. I agree, I hope that David is not responsible for the Xeno, that would be even more lame than Covenant. AC has its moments but is lacking overall.

Big Dave: That is why they got to keep him away from the storytelling. He is not a writer. I would not mind if the Engineers try to re-arrange the Xeno that David Made. My hope is that they will not take an obvious route, that would be the best so if Scott says that David did it then they could do something totally unexpected which still makes sense in the total story. Hopefully they will keep the origins of the black go as a secret so there is something to speculate about.

Critters5: I can only speak for myself but my main problem with AC was that the characters were so poorly written and that all the focus as far as character building goes was spent on the androids. When a movie doesn’t care about the human characters, that is when I don’t care about the movie. Not everything about it was crap but there was enough underdeveloped things for it to be sort of bad.

Charza

Feb-11-2018 11:15 AM

Thanks Thoughts_Dreams. 
It indeed has been a while. Good to see this site is still great though :)

By the way, I have been thinking about Lovecraftian themes lately, because of this topic, and came to realize that the original Alien is actually more Lovecraftian than Alien Covenant is. I do own several H.P Lovecraft stories myself, and usually these stories center around people who have seen the impossible and because of that lost their sanity/grip on reality. 

It usually also involves cosmic forces or entities that are incomprehensible and titanic in scope, making humanity small and insignificant in comparison. 
The first alien kind of checks all the boxes in this regard. 

When the Nostromo crew finds the derelict ship on LV-426, it doesn't make sense to them. The complete alien nature of the structure and the possibilities surrounding its origins are a complete and utter mystery and fully beyond their comprehension. 
The first half of Alien has elements of Lovecraftian storytelling, while Alien Covenant has lots in common with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. 

By the way, I still recommend the novelization of Alien Covenant, as the way the story is told there makes much more sense, and is much more in line with already existing lore. The movie is just a horribly executed mess, and I think a lot of the choices they made in the end just prevented this movie from being a true masterpiece.  

 

BigDave

Feb-11-2018 2:20 PM

@Charza and Thoughts_Dreams

I think you both raise good points, and indeed it appears these Prequels have put a Emphasis on David and AI a lot, they also dont utilize Characters much apart from them being merely to drive the Plot.  The only real Characters being invested in was Dr Shaw/David and Weyland and then David/Walter in Alien Covenant, with maybe Daniels a tiny but but she felt more like a extra and not a lead in Alien Covenant and so her role was only as significant really as what?  Vickers or Holloways.

I think now DISNEY own the rights, they may not appear in too much of a Rush to make another Alien movie and every year that passes by does  effect the potential as far as Ridley Scotts role in the future Movies and also the Android David...  by that i mean if Disney decide to not make any ALIEN movies for 10 years we can assume Ridley Scott would not be up for Directing/Producing the Movie and that Fassbender is going to find it hard to play a Android who is supposed to look 10-15 years younger than Fassbender will be in 10 years.

DISNEY would also want to make sure any future Franchise movies not only DO WELL at the Box Office but also Set Up the Potential to do further movies, that will continue to make good returns.

THIS MEANS.... Disney will be looking to Gauge the Reaction and Wants of the Fanbase, and while the Fanbase has different likes and dislikes since the Prequels... they would no doubt be looking at the Higher % of Fans, and if there are some Elements they feel have displeased the greater Fanbase Population than other elements, then Disney could look to CHANGE some things.

In General i appears a Majority of Fans feel the Prequels have made the Alien/Enigmatic tale of the Xenomorph thats very Alien, maybe somewhat Lovecraftian  which includes the Derelict/Space Jockey, they now appear to be Less Alieny/Lovecraftian   from the more Human looking Space Jockey Race to how they actually are Historically connected to Mankind way prior to the Xenomorph Origins to now giving us the route that its Mankinds own Creation the Android David behind the Xenomorph.

So if Disney feel elements like this have not done justice to Mystery/Enigma that was the Derelict, the Space Jockey and Xenomorph Origin and Purpose, then maybe they would change this?

Lawrence of Arabia

Feb-11-2018 6:02 PM

red0guy

You're a piece of work, ignorant as all hell but you don't see me acting like a dick about it. Yeah, I guess I am an AC apologist but that doesn't make me wrong just cause you can't add or put two and two together or that your butthurt over a movie but, please, go on like you know it all because you got me bro. I swear, Alien fans are the worst, bunch of children.

Charza

Feb-12-2018 2:28 AM

@BigDave

Disney's takeover of Fox scares me a little to be honest. 
If we take a look at their treatment of the Marvel and Star Wars franchises, things can turn out to be quite grim. 

Alien movies should not be mass produced creature flicks. In my mind Alien movies should explore themes of the unknown, and be thoughtful in that process. The fact that Prometheus and Alien Covenant are criticized and ultimately underperformed in their cinematic runs, are not because of lack of potential, it is because of lack of execution. Both movies had terrific scripts with lots of intriguing details and several very real connections to the original Alien Mov. Alas a lot of those very specific details also ended up on the cutting room floor, in an attempt to make the movies more obscure or as the creators put it "open for interpretation".
One of the things the original Alien did so well is utilizing their characters. Although none of the characters had elaborate back stories when you got into the movies, they at least behaved like real human beings in a certain situation. You also learned more about them as the movie went on, and that is why Ripley for example has such lasting appeal. Prometheus and Alien Covenant both suffer greatly because the characters don't behave like normal real humans would ever behave. Sore examples are goons like Milburn and Fifield, who are the most unconvincing scientists ever put on screen. I think the only character in Prometheus that actually has a hint of the raw realness that made the original Alien work so well is the character of Janek.  

Alien Covenant continued this trend of stupid people in space, and the real shame here is, that within the novelization these characters actually don't do stupid and inconsiderate things. a lot of the characterization and motivations have been altered or don't get context within the scope of the movie, and it suffers because of that. 

With Disney franchises we have seen consistently bad characterisation in multiple of their franchises. Especially Star Wars the Last Jedi has now become an infamous movie because of the badly written script and totally forced Mary Sue type characters. I don't want the Alien franchise to suffer the same fate. 

If Disney decides to can and shelf the franchise, Ridley Scott won't be able to work on it any longer. The man is 80 years old already. But is Ridley truly the man to continue this legacy? So far he has not been able to recreate the greatness that was the original Alien. He never lost his ability to create great visuals and compose visually stunning movies, but with all his hefty ideas, he has shown an increasing disconnect from understanding human motivations. The strange thing is that it only seems to plague his efforts within the "Alien" series so there must be some other factors within the production as well for this to be the endresult. 

It is however interesting to ponder the possibilities of what a movie in the Alien universe would be like if it was made by a younger visionary director like Christopher Nolan or Denis Villeneuve. 

@Lawrence of Arabia

Well no need to be sour towards red0guy, he already admitted that he might have exaggerated, and thus went too far. I'm sure we all respect your opinion although not necessarily agreeing with it.   

 

ignorantGuy

Feb-12-2018 7:41 AM

@Lawrence of Arabia

Just for you I change my handle, because you were so insightful. And sorry I'm no Alien fan however, I only like Prometheus and the first part of Alien 79,  while should have the xenomorph  stayed in his cameo from Prom.

@Charza

I regret apologizing.

I find the hate towards Milburn and Fifield exaggerated because the story after they f**k up does not go into people are killed one by one. While the cleverness of people on the Nostromo is exagerated... it's hard to imagine that at least Dallas, Kane, Ripley, and Lambert would not have some form of higher education and as such they were not all simply space truckers. But Kane is plain stupid, Dallas makes very questionable decisions in more than one occasion (they maybe explained in the novel, but in the movie) and Ripley wastes time on the cat.

The so called stupidity is part of the Alien movie formula and it won't go away if the execs dictate.

@all

I wonder were is Michelle? Maybe she does some better things.... good for her.

 

Charza

Feb-12-2018 8:38 AM

I partially agree red0guy/IgnorantGuy that some of the decisions in the original Alien are also questionable. Fifield and Milburn however have absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. They behave strange and unsympathetic, with Milburn being a cocky know it all sceptic, and Fifield just being an allround jerk all the time.

One of the key elements of scientific thinking is having an open mind about a subsequent  subject and then trying to proof whether a certain theory is correct or not by subjecting your theory to certain tests. The Milburn and Fifield characters we get in the movies doesn't fit that profile at all. They aren't open to the idea that ancient aliens might have had some influence in human evolution and especially Milburn immediately discards the theory. When the Prometheus successfully finds remnants of the Engineers on LV-223, and it is proven that there are other things out there, both him and Fifield just freak out, because Mr "Biology" and Mr "in love with rocks" according to their assessment have nothing to contribute in the "Gigantic dead body arena". This just made no sense at all. 
I don't necessarily question Fifield losing his bearings within the structure getting the 2 of them lost after separating ways with the others in the team, since that might very well have been an interference issue with the equipment, though the movie could have done a better job actually establishing why Fifield and Milburn had no access to the map, while at first Fifield clearly had his pups mapping out the structure and giving him readings on his wrist computer. I agree that Shaw and Holloway also make some pretty poor decisions within the movie, but Fifield and Milburn just blew my mind in the cinema in terms of stupid behaviour. 

Now with the Nostromo crew it is a little different. Yes perhaps some things could have been handled way better, but part of what happened to them is largely because they were indirectly sabotaged by their own android. They simply had no clue of what was out there, and at least had some regard for sensible safety protocols. Heck if Ripley was not just overruled by Ash a lot of things would not have happened. 

So yes, I agree that questionable decisions and strange motivations have always been part of the Alien world, but the Nostromo crew still acted way more sensible than the Prometheus crew ever did. 

ignorantGuy

Feb-12-2018 9:33 AM

@Charza

Milburn and Fifield are charactures, that's true, but they are only 2 of the 17 member crew. Holloway is not straight stupid, he was too brash and eager to make leaps of faith (he found the "invitations" and because the Engineers were producing breathable he assumed that everything was made for human visitation). I don't know what Shaw does wrong however and thank God she did not run around corridors being chased by Xenomorphs. And this crew was also sabotaged.

Now the crew of the Nostromo:

1. The party that visits the derelict is made of the Captain, the Second-in-Command and the pilot, if somehow all died the rest of the mission would have been f...ed.

2. They don't put Kane into hyper-sleep when he gets infected as it is suggested and would have done with Shaw.

3. They don't abort the ship as suggested when Dallas dies, drawing straws who would stay behind.

4. Even Ash is stupid as he keeps suffocating Ripley (even when he is attacked) instead of finishing her and the rest of the crew quickly when his cover is blown.

5. They keep searching for the bloody cat.

I won't mention Kane's shoving his head into the egg especially when he sees something is moving inside of it as it was a first.

 

BigDave

Feb-12-2018 5:18 PM

"Disney's takeover of Fox scares me a little to be honest"

AND

"it is because of lack of execution"

Totally agree the execution of the ideas was flawed, the idea was good the execution not so good.... as far as Disney goes i agree Disney have taken some Franchises to then over do the same thing over and over...  But Marvel Comics are always aimed at ages 10+ and Star Wars was a  Sci-Fi Fantasy Family flick that would mainly interest a majority of 8+ year olds.

So Disney has made those flicks more for younger generations, for me i feel the ALIEN Franchise is something aimed at 15 year olds...  This Market for Serious Sci-Fi that touches on Horror aimed for the more Mature 15+ Audience is a Feather in Disneys Bow that they simply did not have.

Lets hope they dont feel the need to produce these movies for 12 or unders and think that Milking Xenomorphs and Ripleys is the way forwards.

Regarding the Characters... to a degree i totally agree.. Alien actually felt more like watching a Big Brother lol... Acting was not great (no academy awards here), but seemed real... like we was watching real people thrown into this situation..

It just never seemed SCRIPTED is what i mean...

Prometheus however we have scripted characters only there for the Plot and yes Milburn and Fifield and others did silly things but these where to drive the Plot Along. But this happens in Horror Movies... if everyone was the best of the best then a lot of the Chaos would never happened, the same is with Alien Covenant.

Alien had the same Problems only the way it was Dealt with was a MASTER STROKE... the reveal of ASH and Special Order 937, was very clever Writing.... without Ash, then Ripley would not have let the returning Crew on the Ship and we would have had a Chest Buster outside, then Dallas and Lambert maybe Rushed inside or left outside and a desperate attempt for the Crew inside to get off that World, and trying to prevent the Xenomorph from entering the ship.

"within the novelization these characters actually don't do stupid and inconsiderate things"

Totally agree.. this is what happens though when a movie cant contain as much detail, if anyone read Lindeloffs Paradise Draft it explains many of the silly decisions in Prometheus, that make some of the silly scenes seem much more plausible.

I agree maybe some Fresh Blood is needed for Future Movies ;)

BigDave

Feb-12-2018 5:29 PM

 "But Kane is plain stupid, Dallas makes very questionable decisions"

Forgot to bring this up in my prior post...  as far as Alien Flaws, i totally agree with this.... apart from those TWO the rest were cautious, Ripley especially and i think the well written Plot for ASH really worked in overriding Protocals because of the Special Order 937

"Mr "Biology" and Mr "in love with rocks" according to their assessment have nothing to contribute in the "Gigantic dead body arena"

LOL love that comment.... ;)

But i have to say Fifield was a dick, he was here for MONEY he never signed up to turning up to a place where Dead Bodies with no Explanation were scattered around...  Lindeloff draft did give some better explanations for those scenes....  my attempt at a Prometheus 2 Re-write also addressed these in a manner that made more sense... No Space Cobra Petting, only a Reaction to a Attacking One.

"why Fifield and Milburn had no access to the map,"

Again this was something the Drafts Addressed .... Fifield thought Milburn had the Map, and Vice Versa  so they forgot it.... this was a bit flawed still and showed that Fifield was incompetent as he basically should have not even considered leaving Milburn the Map..

But Lindeloffs Draft showed us that Fifield was in it for the Money, and a Pot Head and also that Vickers Hired not exactly he best crew, because she maybe wanted the Mission to be a Failure.

ignorantGuy

Feb-12-2018 8:25 PM

BigDave

Fifield was shown to be a pothead and Milburn was (maybe a stereotypical) gay geek, he wanted to show of to Fifield how much he knows about animals. Because of his knowledge he thought was in control.

On the other side, if Alien would have been made today it would clearly be accused by many as being SJW.

Charza

Feb-13-2018 3:38 AM

ignorantGuy

"Milburn and Fifield are charactures, that's true, but they are only 2 of the 17 member crew."

Yes totally, it is almost as if the movie creators wanted to make a statement here, and present these 2 characters as being the apex of "anti science".  
It made me realize something. Within current times there are also a lot of people who call themselves scientists and have degrees in some field.  However they don't actually do a lot in terms of actual science. One of the key things in science is to think outside of the box, push boundries and be open to whatever outcome/evidence actually presents itself. This objectivity is very important in order to do science properly. 

There are many "scientists" nowadays who actually don't operate like that, but instead cling to the theories they have learned in school and never question any of them even though there might be gaps or contradictions within those theories. These people are in reality not so different from the religious fundamentalists who only reason from within their religious scope, and ignore all the rest. Objectivity is certainly not a thing that applies to these people. 
The ancient alien theory for example is very controversial, because many "scientists" don't give it any credit. 
To them the idea of extraterrestrial life, influencing the natural evolution of this planet is outrageous. There is however compelling evidence that certain ancient civilisations indeed might have had contact with something else out there. This however would also mean that humanity as a whole, and all the preconceived notions we have of our history, might need some serious revisions. Prometheus of course deals with this subject, and perhaps the exaggerated and nonsensical personalities of Fifield and Milburn are metaphors for the very subjective establishment, who instead of a commitment to science are more committed to corporate interests. 

Wow, I never actually thought of them that way lol!! 

 

 

"Holloway is not straight stupid, he was too brash and eager to make leaps of faith (he found the "invitations" and because the Engineers were producing breathable he assumed that everything was made for human visitation). I don't know what Shaw does wrong however and thank God she did not run around corridors being chased by Xenomorphs. And this crew was also sabotaged."

I actually appreciated the "daredevil" aspect of Holloway's personality. Science indeed can also mean one has to take a leap of faith, and he definitely had that quality. Holloway was also a very driven character. He does however have some serious character flaws as well. He is shown to be arrogant and he is utterly sure of himself. When David for example explains how he de-constructed ancient languages to their roots, and should be able to communicate with the Engineers provided their thesis was correct, Holloway just scoffs at David for even considering the possibility that their thesis might be wrong. Like you also mention, he and Shaw are for some reason utterly convinced that the Engineers of old were "inviting" humans to go to the Zeta binary star system, which is a ridiculous leap in logic. I understand them being excited about the possibilities of ancient aliens in the past who might or might not still be there, but to consider it an "invitation" is just nonsensical. 

One of the biggest screw ups on Shaw's part was the scene where she actively dismisses Jackson and his security team from going with them into the structure as "This is a scientific expedition and that means no weapons".  
Now that is just stupidity on steroids. She has absolutely no idea what's out there and what kind of dangerous situation can present itself. Security should be a mandatory thing, plain and simple. 

BigDave

"why Fifield and Milburn had no access to the map,"

Again this was something the Drafts Addressed .... Fifield thought Milburn had the Map, and Vice Versa  so they forgot it.... this was a bit flawed still and showed that Fifield was incompetent as he basically should have not even considered leaving Milburn the Map..

But Lindeloffs Draft showed us that Fifield was in it for the Money, and a Pot Head and also that Vickers Hired not exactly he best crew, because she maybe wanted the Mission to be a Failure.

I think it is quite clear that Vickers had other interests, I'm not so sure whether she actually wanted the mission to fail, but she definitely wanted to prove something to Peter Weyland. 

As for the map, it could have been easily solved. At a certain point we see how Fifield starts to map the structure with his Pups. We see the data of those pups on the 3D map that is present within the Prometheus, but we also see that Fifield gets data on his wrist computer. He actively uses this computer during the initial exploration of the complex, and even indicates certain points of interest his pups have found, which he reads from his wrist computer. Now the movie at a certain point establishes that the silica storm causes a lot of signal loss, and to me it seemed that Fifield because of that, no longer had access to the mapped data and there respective positions on that map. The only thing the movie had to do here, was clearing that up. It could be a 10 second scene which shows static on Fifield's wrist computer and just shows the audience that there is some serious interference going on there. 

So yeah, all in all I still feel that the original Alien was more convincing, more realistic. Yes there are strange things going on there as well, and the point IgnorantGuy brings up are very valid. It does however feel more realistic like BigDave also states, because the situations still have some degree of plausibility.  

 

 

ignorantGuy

Feb-13-2018 9:08 AM

Charza

How can an ignorant guy be right? :P But you still have to emphasize on feelings, but my intent was pointing out somethings were blown out of proportion and maybe the root of the problem is the Alien formula. (and yes, AC does not want to depart far from it).

Charza

Feb-13-2018 11:33 AM

hm, I'm not sure whether the root of the problem is within the Alien formula. The novelizations and earlier drafts of the scripts of both Alien Covenant and Prometheus were great. (As BigDave also mentioned) Much of what is in there ends up on the cutting room floor though, and that is what surprises me most.

Many people hated Alien 3, and I agree that it is a troubled movie which probably is because of the development hell it went through. The characters and their motivations are well done however, and you can definitely see Fincher's handiwork all over the movie. Alas studio intervention made this movie worse than it ultimately could have been. 

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-15-2018 11:54 AM

Big Dave: I kind of agree about what you said about the lead characters but I disagree about Daniels. To me it felt like they did not put that much thought to her what she was about (the part where you put some example of the characters that they invested in). At least I did not get any idea what she was about and her character traits. Yeah her part felt like Holloway's part but I must say that I like her more than Holloway, but that is not a big accomplishment.

As far as the time thing, I would rather have a well done movie rather than one that is rushed. I hope that they will make a movie that is at least like aliens in quality. Keep in mind that I put Aliens as number 3 after Alien 3 and Alien.

David and Ridley: well as long as we get a movie that focuses better on characters then I don’t see that as  a problem. Some people might get disappointed if we get less of or no David but I wouldn’t mind. There has to be a way to improve this, right now it can’t get a lot worse but that is not to say that AC and Prometheus are the worst movies in history.

Further alien movies, yeah but how many do we need before it gets repetitive? If they get the last movie right then maybe we will not have to worry about any more alien movies.

Yes I agree that some of the mystery has been taken away by the prequels but that can be saved, they have got to think about it though. A specie above the Engineers could solve this. Having David responsible for the Xeno makes it less err alien, no pun intended. This is a mistake I feel so they got to undo that no matter what Scott says.

“So if Disney feel elements like this have not done justice to Mystery/Enigma that was the Derelict, the Space Jockey and Xenomorph Origin and Purpose, then maybe they would change this?“

Into what though? It could be improved but it could get worse. This is why I hope that we will get a specie above the Engineers and they have one of them that is the SJ so we will save some mystery to that. An alternative is that it is a part of the engineer secret military that we will not get to know that much about which is another way to save some mystery about it.

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-15-2018 11:56 AM

Charza: Yeah I have thought about getting the novelization of Alien Covenant. I think that Allan Dean Foster did that, they had an interview with him at AVPGalaxy podcast, that was interesting. Disney could have done a lot better with Star Wars, I am still annoyed that they killed Luke. Hopefully they will stay away from Alien but maybe it would be better if they would sell that to another company who knows how to make movies like that. Yeah they should be smart enough when to explore the human psyche, that is what I think that it is really about what humans do when they are under extreme stress/face things that they are not prepared for. Agreed there were potential both for AC and Prometheus, but it got lost along the way. When you look at cut scenes for Prometheus you probably find that a lot of it would have made a better movie.

“… who are the most unconvincing scientists ever put on screen.”

He he, I don’t look at F and M like scientists, they are more like people who shall take a bus to town but they take the wrong bus and end up in the woods or somewhere. They just got on that mission by accident but they had no clue what they were doing (or more like Weyland making fun of them or something, like a prank), it could be fun if you look at it like that but yeah their characters were not good.

They Mary Sue shit in Star Wars, yeah. I don’t mind that females get leading roles but when you make them like miss perfects then it doesn’t make me believe in these characters because everyone have flaws. Rey is probably the most obvious example of this, I didn’t feel anything for her what so ever even though I wanted to. Everything that she faced she went through it without a lot of problems, you can not make people feel sympathy for a character like that. Plus those a-holes killed Luke, grr.

I realize that some of that was a response to Big Dave but I felt that I wanted to make a comment on it if that is OK.

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-15-2018 11:56 AM

Ignorant Guy:

“Even Ash is stupid as he keeps suffocating Ripley (even when he is attacked) instead of finishing her and the rest of the crew quickly when his cover is blown.”

Not to be an ass but I am not sure if you can say stupid about an android, maybe it had more to do with his programming. Another possibility is that they did not think about that when they wrote the script. Sorry for being nit-picky, I see your point though.

ignorantGuy

Feb-15-2018 12:16 PM

Thoughts_Dreams

At least you did not make me ignorant beyond belief...:P

BigDave

Feb-15-2018 4:06 PM

"Into what though? It could be improved but it could get worse. "

Your follow up to this is exactly what i meant.. Disney can change things as nothing is set in STONE yet!

There is not 100% undeniable evidence in the Movies that David Created the Xenomorph, and the Derelict has not been there for Thousands of years... it appears it is hinting that the Derelict would be a Recent Event, POST 2105 for Certain and that without David there would be NO Xenomorph...

But there is nothing concrete that any U-Turn would not conflict against.

The Same goes for the Space Jockey and Derelict, while the clues show the Engineers and Juggernaught are connected there is NO concrete Proof they are 100% the same, and so they could be explained as something different... 

At the moment it appears they are the same, but we have some Aesthetically and size differences, this means a Element of Doubt and Contradicting Evidence.. so these can be changed.

Thats not to say they will be though.

Capt Torgo

Feb-15-2018 6:57 PM

Brego, unfortunately, you nailed it. My only hope lies with Disney to reign in Ridley Scott and his meddling in the script & story for which he has no expertise. If he could just focus only on directing through cinematography w excellent sets + sound. It's gonna take fresh eyes and clean hands to salvage the mess(story) of Alien Covenant.

BigDave

Feb-16-2018 4:09 AM

Well we have to remember that FOX have the Final Say...

I think RS had a lot of interest in the Ancient Aliens/Gods links to explain the Space Jockey,  and the Creation Mythos, and touching upon Creation and Rebellion and Hubris of Creation themes.

Some have wondered if RS had made some flaws with AC as a big F-U to those who pressured the Prometheus sequel to be about the Xenomorph, but i dont think RS would be so stupid to give us the changes we saw in the xenomorph just for a F-U Fanboys reaction.

I think having a interest in Creation/Sub Creation Arc, was going to lead to David attempting to Create his own Xenomorph DNA Monster anyway.....  I think RS had then thought you know what, having David create IT rather than Re-Create something similar was more interesting and fitting with the over all Creation/Hubris Arc.

Its interesting for sure... but they should know its something that WILL Split the Fanbase... and something that offer a conflict to clues in previous movies and mean a lot of Tidy up work to make this fit with what we saw in ALIEN.

The Ancient Aliens Plot, Fantastic, Engineers Great idea, as a Stand Alone movie... not connected to the Derelict/Space Jockey..  By going the route they did it made the Enigma of the Space Jockey and Alien/Derelict less Alieny, more too connected to Humanity.

Then the route that they took with David creating the Xenomorph, has made even this Organism now less Alieny too.

I think introducing some other Party that has a sinister motive and fits more in tone with the Giger-esque Aesthetic and  Visions of that great Artist is whats needed.

I think RS needs some input, but they do need to look at something more Alien....  i dont think Cameron should be involved if they are going to make it about the Xenomorph and Queens...

RS is only as good as the Script...  and FOX did make some changes too and i think the Scripts have been not strong enough, they all needed a bit of tinkering with.

Charza

Feb-17-2018 9:36 AM

Thoughts_Dreams

"Yeah I have thought about getting the novelization of Alien Covenant."

You should, I truly recommend it. It is of course largely similar to the movie, but there is so much more in there that fans would appreciate. Things also just make a lot more sense. 

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