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Editorial - Ridley Scott's StarBeast and James Cameron's Xenomorph may not be the same creature?

Editorial - Ridley Scott's StarBeast and James Cameron's Xenomorph may not be the same creature?

Ever since its release in 1986 James Cameron's Aliens has polarized the fan base of the widely popular Alien franchise. For one portion of the fans, Aliens is a well-crafted action movie that has and continues to inspire fans of science fiction, such as with Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers and Bungie's Halo. For another portion of fans, however, Aliens is viewed as having lessened the evocative and nightmarish entity of the first movie into a horde of mindless insects. The disdain this portion of fans feel for the sequel is partly derived from the introduction of the Queen; a mother caste of the creature responsible for laying hordes of Ovomorphs (eggs), similar to those discovered by Kane beneath the derelict Juggernaut on Acheron, LV-426. The negativity towards Cameron's Queen comes from a deleted scene that was reintroduced into the 2003 directors cut of Ridley Scott's 1979 original, Alien. In this scene, while preparing to escape the USCSS Nostromo Ripley (portrayed for the first time by Sigourney Weaver) discovers her crewmates Brett (portrayed by the recently deceased Harry Dean Stanton) and Dallas (portrayed by Tom Skerritt) cocooned within the bowels of the ships lower levels, with Brett's body seemingly being mutated into an Ovomorph (AKA egg-morphing). Fans have since speculated that Dallas' fate was to be similar to Kane's, in which the Facehugger born from the Ovomorph that Brett was transforming into would have implanted a Xenomorph embryo inside of Dallas' chest. While Cameron's addition to the franchise gives the Alien an efficient means of propagation and reproduction, many fans feel that the original method shown in the deleted scene from Alien added to the creatures ambiguity and otherworldly nature.

Subsequent sequels Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection, and the crossovers AvP and AvP: Requiem continued to feature Cameron's Queen as the creatures means of reproduction, choosing to ignore the now legendary egg-morphing scene. However, last years Alien: Covenant, the second in Scott's series of prequels to Alien, introduced audiences and fans to variant forms of the Xenomorph with the Neomorphs and the Protomorphs. While the latter shared many similarities with the classic Xenomorph both physically and in regards to its method of propagation the Neomorphs were shown to be closer physically to the Deacon that was featured in Prometheus' closing moments. Furthermore, rather than relying on a secondary organism (Facehugger) to implant 'morph' embryos into viable hosts, as found with the Deacon and Protomorphs, the Neomorphs instead directly infected their hosts from spore motes ejected from Black Pathogen contaminated fungal egg sacks. The Neomorphs use of infection rather than implantation from a parasite highlights the possibility that there can be variant forms of the Xenomorph, which we may have already seen evidence of in the previous installments of the Alien franchise.

In Scott's 1979 original characters Dallas, Lambert, and Kane enter the derelict Juggernaut via the three vaginally reminiscent openings in the vessels hull, this leads the trio to the vessel's cockpit and the remains of its dead pilot, beneath which Kane discovers a cache of thousands of Ovomorphs. However, in Cameron's sequel, the Jordens enter the derelict Juggernaut via one of its collapsed arms, and although Cameron originally intended to show the colonists exploring the same cache of Ovomorphs as seen in Alien it was never filmed and as such it was never shown where the Jordens discovered the Facehugger that was attached to Russ Jorden's face. Therefore it is possible that the Jordens may have actually discovered a second cache of Ovomorphs within the collapsed arm of the strange alien vessel, the Xenomorphs within which may have been a variant form that differed from those discovered by Kane beneath the pilot's chamber 57 years earlier.

If we presume the (mysteriously sourced) Facehuggers seen in Alien 3 to be from the Queen Alien that Ripley battled in the USS Sulaco's hangar, and with the knowledge that the Xenomorphs in Alien: Resurrection are all sourced from the Queen Chestburster that was gestating in Ripley's chest during Alien 3, then we can almost definitively state that all of the Xenomorphs from Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection are all sourced from either the Queen Xenomorph that was introduced in Aliens, or from wherever Russ and Anne explored within the derelict Juggernaut. If, with the egg-morphing scene having been reintroduced in the 2003 directors cut of Alien, we are to count this scene as canon, it would suggest that the introduction of the Neomorphs in Alien: Covenant was not just showing the evolution of the Xenomorph from its Black Pathogen progenitor but was also highlighting that dependent upon what organisms it contaminates, the Black Pathogen can result in variant forms of the Xenomorph.

In summary, what this theory is suggesting is that the Alien from the first movie may not be the same as those seen in its subsequent sequels, with both variants relying on different forms of propagation, with the former variant using egg-morphing and the latter using a mother-caste known as the Queen. Further examination of these variants would seem to suggest that the egg-morphing Xenomorph is a solitary creature with a heavily bio-mechanical appearance whereas the Queen born Xenomorphs have a more organic appearance and exist within a eusocial, supercolony hierarchy similar to that of ants and bees, with the Queen as the dominant figure. The Neomorphs introduced in Alien: Covenant also suggests that could be more variants of the Xenomorph not yet discovered or yet to be created through experimentation with the Black Pathogen on other organisms, as inferred in Alien: Covenant.

Despite having actually praised Cameron's design for the Xenomorph Queen, and almost working with Cameron on an Alien sequel Scott's return to the Alien franchise with 2012's Prometheus and last years Alien: Covenant has seen the director not only remove the crossovers AvP and AvP: Requiem from the franchises continuity, but also distance the franchise from its sequels with little to no mention of any of the elements seen in Cameron's Aliens, David Fincher's Alien 3 or Jean-Pierre Jeunet's Alien: Ressurection, which would seem to suggest Scott is trying to return the Xenomorph back to the primordial, ambiguous, and malevolent creature he introduced to audiences back in 1979. The possibility of variant forms of the Xenomorph opens up the franchise to almost limitless narrative possibilities. Somehow, within an overtly formulaic and generic "Alien" movie, Scott has (possibly unknowingly) evolved the Xenomorph, giving it another means by which to adapt and grow towards being... The Perfect Organism.

If you're a fan of Alien / Prometheus and would like to discuss Alien: Covenant and its upcoming sequel with other like-minded fans, be sure to join in our Alien: Covenant forum! Ranked the #1 Prometheus forum back in 2012 and reigning as the web's top Alien: Covenant fan site, it's a great place to discuss the upcoming Prometheus sequels, dissect details from every trailer and engage with other fans just like you.

About Alien: Covenant 2 / Alien Awakening

The state of the Alien: Covenant sequel continues to remain uncertain. Ridley Scott has mentioned previously that they have a story already in place and know exactly where the sequel to Covenant will go, however the recent acquisition of 20th Century Fox film properties by Disney have potentially put the rumored-to-be-titled Alien: Awakening on hold for the time being. As new details arise concerning Alien: Covenant 2 we will be your premiere source and you can find information on the Covenant sequel by visiting the About Alien: Awakening page here.

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More Alien: Covenant Articles

32 Fan responses to Editorial - Ridley Scott's StarBeast and James Cameron's Xenomorph may not be the same creature?

Resurgence

Feb-08-2018 3:43 PM

I ALREADY CAME UP WITH THIS THEORY OVER A YEAR AGO, WHO WROTE THIS?

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 4:09 PM

I think its certainly possible....

If we ASSUME that the Derelict has been on LV-426 way before the events of Alien Covenant.

To be honest this is something that actually had by-passed me in all the years... the Xenomorphs in Alien and Aliens being from a different Source... but its possible if we ignore Alien Covenant for sure...

When starting on a Prequel to ALIEN we first had ALIEN ENGINEERS, which indeed was to show us that the Engineer Ships have many Cargo Holds and Each had a different version of the Organism, and so looking at it like this, then WHY NOT and so Kane simply entered a different Cargo of Eggs to those that infected the Jorden's and Hadleys Hope...  This would explain the slight differences.

So i agree GAVIN its a theory to ponder....  as the one i was drawn to prior to seeing this was that a EGG MORPH leads to a Queen.

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 4:15 PM

Indeed Resurgence i have to say KUDOS to your Topic Here

The Differences are you was suggesting TWO different Ships, which is interesting... i dont think its a case of any one Ripping one Person off, but just TWO minds thinking alike but at different times.

I am actually surprised i never thought of such a connection/explanation after studying Alien Engineers lol   I deducted from Prometheus that Each Temple Mound/Complex Produced a Different Version of the Bio-Weapon so each Complex could have Ships with different types of Cargo...    which is maybe why some differences are seen in Alien Covenant.

But looking at Alien Engineers, it was showing the Ships have a number of different Cargo Holds with varying Organisms in them.

JurassicNight

Feb-08-2018 4:23 PM

I actually like this, only there's one problem. Scott wants the Alien to return to it's mysterious malevolent ways, yet he tells us how they're created. I'm sorry but I can't get over that, I hate the fact that they have an origin, an origin of which they were created by an android. Hopefully if this theory turns into truth then have the Alien from the first movie be something that existed before David. 

Resurgence

Feb-08-2018 4:42 PM

BigDave it wasn't really me complaining about it being ripped off, but rather surprise and joy that someone else realized this and was able to explain it better, because I admit it was VERY poorly written, and could still possibly be canon as in the novelization it is stated the engineers also made a version of the xenomorphs which was the inspiration for David making the xenomorph and they could be what we see in aliens, as at the end of covenant in one of the deleted scenes DAVID stated "I have one thing left to perfect; My Queen"

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 4:43 PM

I think regardless of what route they take....

If they leave some Mystery to the Black Goo, then we can always ponder... where did this stuff come from and so while the Xenomorph may be relegated to being a Creation of David, we cant rule out that the Origin of the Black Goo is related to some other Ancient Related Organism.

Resurgence

Feb-08-2018 4:47 PM

 BigDave I am afraid to say but David in the Advent extra DAVID tells us exactly what it is a form of radical AI that alters DNA based on an advanced Algorithm 

Dark Nebula

Feb-08-2018 5:09 PM

If I'm not mistaken, originally the Xenomorphs from Aliens were supposed to be the same design as the one from Alien, but in the last minute change by Cameron, the smooth drone carapace was removed because it was considered too fragile to stand up to the rigours of filming. Over the years, these xenomorphs were accepted as a new variant of species. Also, the 1979 big chap and the 1986 aliens have more human legs while the A3, AR and AC ones have more animalistic leg joints. Design changes made by the filmmakers happen all the time.

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 5:25 PM

Indeed Resurgence

This is the case that they have given... i do question the routes they take as far as considering LORE and what was laid down before, but it appears its a every changing make it up and change it as we go along.

They really dont think hard when working on ideas, especially in Alien Covenant... because if this is the case, we have to wonder WHAT does the Goo do at Default... HOW is it Programed?  The only Logical Explanation would be that from its SOURCE which we may not have seen yet..  The Substance is Programed and then its encased into the Ampoules...  

Which means the Black Goo in Prometheus on LV-223 had been Programed to Create those kind of Deacon DNA effects.... the Sacrificial Goo must have been Programed some other way before being placed into the Sacrificial Cup/Bowl.

This kind of makes the whole point of those Experiments on LV-223 a bit odd, i think the Radical AI was just a LAZY Cop out by those working on the Plot... so that the Black Goo is no longer a MacGuffin

If we assume its correct what the Advent shows us, then it makes little Sense for David to carry on with his Experiments, he just needs the Black Goo and Figure out what Algorithm would have created the Xenomorph and then just obtain what ever is needed to Program the Black Goo.

The Radical AI part is like kind of saying if we develop a Genetic Technique we a computer Program can Map the differences in DNA between various Organisms.... and so if the DNA of a Dog is say 110011011 and a Cat is 110010111 then having a way to Re-Program the Dogs DNA so that this area 11011  is rewrote to change it to 10111 then the Dogs DNA becomes a Cat.

I think this is kind of what they are now saying the Black Goo does... if this is the case, then all David needs to do is figure out what sequence his Xenomorph is, and Program the Black Goo to replicate this.

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 5:27 PM

But saying that...... when looking at Prometheus and the Green Cystall and then considering what the Source i had mentioned about its connection and what the Black Goo was, this does kind of add up to what they said it was in the Advent..

ignorantGuy

Feb-08-2018 7:12 PM

Yes, however if the only way to reproduce is thru egg morphing you need 2 host to get to 1 adult Xenomorph, and how is that efficient, "perfect"? 

Gavin

Feb-08-2018 9:04 PM

@ DarkNebula,

Indeed, James Cameron also added later the suggestion that the Aliens in his movie may have shed their carapaces and biomechanical elements as they aged.

Design changes aside all of the Aliens in Aliens, 3 and Resurrection can be sourced from the Queen in Aliens, whereas the "Big Chap" Alien is sourced from the plethora of eggs in the egg silo, which may not necessarily have come from the Queen, especially if we are to accept the egg-morphing scene as canon.

What Alien: Covenants Neomorphs show us is that not all "Xenomorphs" rely on the same form of propagation as the established beast, and that there can be variant forms of the creature. Davids "Protomorph" is one such variant, that simply refined the Deacon - which highlights that regardless of Scott's comment's David did NOT create the Xenomorph.

chli

Feb-09-2018 1:28 AM

Well, I like to see the xenomorph as an ancient being - even older than the engineers. The engineers discover this species (the eggs on LV-426) and bring eggs to LV-223 to do the ritual on sacrificial humans or engineers (which we see in the mural). The being we see in the mural is a human (or engineer) clad in a ritualistic dress resembling the being which they give birth to. The dress is open in the chest/stomach and there is a hole there portraying result of the chestburster.

The engineers eventually make the pathogen out of xeno DNA because it's easier and not so dangerous to transport (and the result is just as deadly). It’s also obvious that we get different results depending on the host. So, I agree that the original xeno might be different from the others we have seen - eggmophing e.g.

Charza

Feb-09-2018 3:28 AM

JurassicNight

Feb-08-2018 4:23 PM

 

I actually like this, only there's one problem. Scott wants the Alien to return to it's mysterious malevolent ways, yet he tells us how they're created. I'm sorry but I can't get over that, I hate the fact that they have an origin, an origin of which they were created by an android. Hopefully if this theory turns into truth then have the Alien from the first movie be something that existed before David. 

I have been thinking about this a lot lately, and after reading the official novelization I've come to the conclusion that Scott in fact might not have explained the origin of the Xeno species. 
Like I already mentioned before in another topic, David has been able to ultimately produce some kind of Xenomorph like creature although it is different. This is however NOT the same creature the Nostromo crew encounters. 

I think David merely recreated a creature that was already part of the Engineer culture. 
It is not a protomorph, and not the absolute origin of the xx121 Xenomorph species. 

R35

Feb-09-2018 5:06 AM

Does the Advent clip exist anywhere online? I have never been able to find it...

Critters5

Feb-09-2018 6:53 AM

I think the lore at this point is pretty F-ed thanks to oversite and carelessness at this point imo

Seraphis

Feb-09-2018 7:32 AM

Wait did the site's design change? It looks even better now.

Svanya

Feb-09-2018 1:36 PM

@R35

Here is one of the clips they released, there is a longer version on the Blu-Ray. I wrote about it when it was released DAVID'S LAB (BLU-RAY TEASER): DAVID EXPLAINS WHAT THE BLACK GOO IS.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BC4vOycX1hM" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

BigDave

Feb-09-2018 3:02 PM

Indeed good points regarding the Camerons Xenomorphs, i was going to mention the same thing but Dark Nebula and Gavin already covered it ;)

Regarding the Xenomorph, this is a tricky one really because the ever changing clues and explanations do make things a bit more cloudy really.  I know MANY fans are holding on to the Xenomorph being Ancient, but i think at the VERY LEAST what we know is there had been related Organisms in the very Ancient Past.

The Advent Black Goo explanation is a bit flawed, its basically ONCE AGAIN Fox Releasing some after movie EXPLANATION that contradicts a bit of what we have been shown, the first time we saw a similar Explanation was the WY Black Goo File.  Where it never needed a explanation if people had read Spaights ALIEN ENGINEERS draft, and FOX should have released some extra information that connected to how Spaights had envisioned the Substance (Nano Parasites)  But ALAS FOX decide to change things which effects a lot of my theories :(

There are a lot of pieces to the Puzzle of the Ooze as David calls it, with the Advent, and every other time we have seen the Substance, i will have to put some effort into getting to the bottom of it now we incorporate the Advent Video.

But i think some can misunderstand what David was saying, he calls it is Ripe with Advanced Nano-Particles and then its essentially a Radical Form of AI ..... In Reality what we have is a component of this Substance that are Nano-Particles that Act as some kind of Mutagen that Manipulates DNA/Genome and Organic Molecules and the AI Element has to apply to this Substance either has a varying effect on different Genomes so it either effects different DNA/Genomes differently or maybe effects the same Genomes in a Different Random Way...  OR that this Primordial Creation Tool can be Manipulated to Effect Genomes in different ways.

So it in essence is a Mutagenic Substance for Manipulating Organic Matter that acts as a Organic Tool that can Reprogram Genetic Codes.... so its like if every strand of DNA/Genome has a Unique Code, so as we can examine the DNA/Genomes of a Rodent, a Ape, a Reptile we will see while a lot of code is shared, there are differences.

If we do this basically, so say a DOG is 1100.1101.1011 and a CAT is 1100.1101.1101 we could see its the last 4 digits of this Code that differentiates between a Dog and a Cat, if we had some Method/Substance were we could take a Cat and change its Codes last 4 digits 1101 to 1011 then the Cate DNA would mutate/change to a DOG

I would assume the Black Goo is a Tool that can Re-code DNA/Genomes, maybe how it does this can be programmed, or maybe its random or dependent on other Factors?  I would still say that unless this stuff can be Programmed, then we still have to look at how some element of the Substance, Breaks Down the DNA Characteristics/Traits of a Organism into a substance that allows for this DNA/Traits to be passed onto another Organism thus causing Hybrid DNA.

Gavin

Feb-09-2018 4:02 PM

@ BigDave,

What we have seen of the black goos mutagenic traits is an evolution of what Spaights originally imagined. The clue is in the wording, the phrases used - Nano, AI, Pathogen, Genetic.

Think back to the opening scene of Prometheus, the scene where we saw a strand of the Engineers DNA being covered in a black substance before splitting apart. What the "Black Goo" does is similar, but instead of decimating the hosts DNA it reconstructs partitions of it to a preprogrammed template, that of the Xenomorph.

Rather than the scarabs that Spaights originally created, Scott and his creative team have shrunk the instigating agent of the "Black Goo" down to a nano-sized, artificially intelligent, virus - possibly biomechanical in nature, and likely sourced from the Xenomorph itself.

BigDave

Feb-09-2018 4:55 PM

I think its something quite open for debate for sure.

When i saw Prometheus, i was led to connect the Goo, as a Tool that the Sacrificial Goo was a Tool used to Break down a Organism into a Substance/Mutagen that then passes on the DNA of the Organism that ingested the Sacrificial Goo onto other Organisms to create a Hybrid.    Sacrificial Goo plus a WOLF breaks the Wolf down into a Pathogenic Mutagen that would then pass on Wolf DNA and so if this infected a Human we would get a Werewolf like Hybrid...  i saw the connection with the Black Goo that this stuff was obtained by introducing the Mural Deacon or the Fresco One to the Sacrificial Goo to produce the substance in the Urns.

A months after this theory i was led to, the Alien Engineers Draft got leaked and when i read this, i indeed saw how Spaights Scarabs worked IMO how i interpreted the Sacrificial Goo/Black Goo.  I felt this was the basis for the idea, but there are certainly other theories and with the release of the Weyland Viral File, it kind of contradicted some elements of this theory...    and now with the Advent Viral it could kind of contradict it a bit too.

But thats not to say the Sacrificial Goo is the BASE Primordial Ooze, those the Black Goo Variants have been Programed with Xenomorph Strain, maybe obtained by introduction of the Source Ooze with a related Organism.

But its become such a  McGuffin  that i guess if we have to take the Advent at Face Value, then this Substance either by pure accident or coincidence, lead the Sacrificial Engineers DNA to eventually become Humans (i think it took Millions of years of Evolution from this Seeding) or indeed the Sacrificial Goo was somehow Programed to take on Engineer DNA to then start building blocks of Life based on this DNA/Genome.  Which would still mean maybe to get the Xenomorph Programed Version the BASE  substance had to be introduced to a Xenomorph or related Organism.

The other way has to be that the Goo can be Programed, but if this is the case why does the Engineer need to drink it?  If it can be programed to contain Engineer Genetic Code, then why not just pour the Sacrificial Cup Contents into the Waterfall?

If we accept the Goo is one Substance and can be manipulated to change DNA/Genomes into anything, then we would have to ask why would David needed so many experiments?  Or now he has his Creation the Xenomorph, he only needs to know what Code this has to Program the Black Goo to then Produce his Thousands of Eggs.

Maybe they are going this route that the Goo/Ooze is Programmable and can be Programed to take different forms... this could mean David would need BLACK GOO rather than those Face Huggers to "Create what kind of a world he will" so RS says, and for it to not be about the Xenomorph.  But about AI

Then if the Goo is AI, David could use it on the Colonist to basically Evolve them into anything really, even something so different to the Xenomorph or anything we have seen prior.... he could even Program it to turn Humans into Engineers, into Lizzardmen,  Birdmen or anything.

BigDave

Feb-09-2018 5:00 PM

I think they took something quite simplistic from Prometheus (seemed to follow the same Laws as Spaights Scarabs) and just made it more complicated with each new POST Viral or File they released.

Gavin

Feb-09-2018 9:30 PM

While there are base similarities between the two, the Sacrificial Goo and the Black Goo are not the same substance.

Remember not only was the sacrificial goo slightly honeycombed and scattered with golden highlights, when consumed it was imprinted with the Engineers DNA, whereas the totally black goo already had the imprinted template of the Xenomorph. The sacrificial goo also decimated the host, whereas the black goo reconstructed the host.

Walter

Feb-10-2018 12:45 AM

Aliens and its sequels are not made from Ridley Scott.

He would not chance xenomorphs head and create queen.Thats why in Covenant we have the smooth dome and there is no queen.

Just dont count the movies that are Not directed by Scott as part of the franchise.

Yog Sothoth

Feb-10-2018 4:33 AM

Nice idea...but a few problems. The Neomorphs DO use a parasite stage in thier lifecycle. Those "spore motes" as people call them are actualy tiny insects, which are seen under the microscope in David's lab. Please see here for more details on this -> https://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/46223

Also we must remember that the events of Aliens happend on the same planet as the original Alien. The Aliens in the sequel were intended by James Cameron to be the same creatures as in the first film. So for this article to be "correct", we would need counter-information from Ridley Scott as to the direction he wishes to take the franchise. If he point blank says that he does not see the Queen as related to his creature, and that his story is on a different line to Aliens, Alien 3 etc. then yes this idea holds out. But minus any of that, it is pure speculation at best, fan fiction at worst. So basically...until Scott comes clean about his intended direction, all we can do is shrug and just go with the current authorial intent of Cameron. His Aliens are the same as in Alien. Cameron explained himself, that his Aliens looked slightly different to the one in the first movie because they had aged slightly.

Gavin

Feb-10-2018 6:57 AM

Remember Yog Sothoth,

In the directors cut of Alien Ridley Scott reintroduced the egg-morphing scene which many fans of the original movie view as a better and more ambiguous form of propagation than James Camerons Queen, which many fans feel has been overused and led to the "cooked" nature of the franchise.

If Scott reintroduced the egg-morphing scene to hint at its canonicity it gives us two forms of egg production, just as the parasitic motes in Alien Covenant gives us two forms of parasitic part of the creature's lifestyle.

Speculation is part of the fun of being a fan, as we all are, and with a franchise as ambiguous as the Alien franchise, speculation is not only inevitable but is what keeps the fandom alive, as members of this and other forum sites will attest to. As already stated in a previous reply James Camerons intentions are well known, but the finished movie of Aliens (nor the special edition) does not state definitively the Queen and her brood are of the exact same origin as the Alien, and so is open to speculation.

In Prometheus and Alien Covenant Scott clearly shows use variant forms of the Xenomorph do exist with the Deacon, Neomorph, and Protomorph, with only the latter bearing the most resemblance to the creature seen in the first, and subsequent movies. Yet who is to say that the creature of the first movie is the same as those depicted in subsequent movies when the aforementioned egg-morphing scene contradicts the need for a Queen.

Myself and BigDave have offered the possibility that potentially the Facehugger born from the egg formerly known as Brett may have impregnated Dallas with a Queen Embryo. But Scott's introduction of variant forms of the Xenomorph allows for more than one type of the creature, meaning that his intention for the Alien and Camerons can now co-exist without the need for the compromise BigDave and I offered.

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-11-2018 8:15 AM

Hopefully they will leave the black goo a mystery so we can think about that. Yeah David says that it is a radical AI but he does not say how it works so I think that there are things there that can be left vague, I hope so.

BigDave

Feb-11-2018 3:07 PM

"While there are base similarities between the two, the Sacrificial Goo and the Black Goo are not the same substance."

Indeed Gavin

The entire reply by you is exactly what i was pointing out and concluded when i saw Prometheus, that then reading Alien Engineers helped to make better sense of and so my interpretations matched what i latter read in Alien Engineers.   And so it was as i was saying the more they fiddle with the Goo/Ooze they seem to be taking something quite simple and making it more complex.

If we look at the MAIN Plot for Prometheus its not a Angry Alien Race of Engineers Creating Bio-Weapons... its about a Ancient Race of Humanoids who had adopted a Sacrificial Ritualistic way to SEED their DNA...   Even after AC, we have RS again refer to the Engineers as GARDENERS

And so if we look at this being their Agenda, and the Sacrificial Goo as the Tool to do this, then we can see this is a Tool that is used to Spread the DNA/Genomes of any Organism to then imprint their DNA into the Genome of other Organisms.

so Sacrificial Goo ==> Broken Down DNA that reforms/becomes a Mutagen that then passes on the Organisms DNA that was Sacrificed DNA onto other Organisms it comes into contact with.

So if a Sacrificed Engineer DNA, via this Mutagen obtained from the Sacrificial Scene infects say a Primate then the result is a Primate/Engineer Hybrid... if we say this is 50/50 Hybrid,  if we then infect this Hybrid with more of that Engineer DNA then it becomes a 75% Engineer 25% Primate Hybrid... but if this 50/50 Hybrid could mate with a Primate then it would be maybe what 75% Primate and 25% Engineer.

If we took this 50/50 Hybrid and introduced it to Sacrificial Goo, then the resulting Mutagen infects a WOLF then we would get a Hybrid thats 25% Engineer, 25% Primate and 50% WOLF

THIS ^^^ is how i saw the Sacrificial Goo, and its what i think Jon Spaights intentions was, which Alien Engineers appears to show us with the Nano Scarabs...   This means the Sacrificial Varient is a Tool to not only Spread DNA but to Manipulate and create Hybrids and its a case of multiple interactions of different Hybridization Attempts that lead to Mankind, likewise we see it was many attempts by David to get those Eggs, those Eggs containing Traits obtained by many Organisms he experimented on.

This seems to be the Original Idea, and Simple one.... before changes here and there...

Thus if we look at it the way Spaights Scarabs work, then the Urns of Black Goo must contain the Broken Down DNA of something related to the Xenomorph/Deacon that was obtained by using the Sacrificial Goo on them.... HENCE IMO  the Mural having a Sacrificial Pose (same pose the Engineer had taken in Alien Engineers) and HENCE the Sacrificial Bowl/Cup on the Altar before being changed to a Green Crystal.

I think the Revelations in the ADVENT do not necessary rule out the Tool being as above still.

BigDave

Feb-11-2018 3:35 PM

I would go even further when looking at the Sacrificial Goo being a Creation/Hybridization Tool

"sometimes to create, one must first Destroy"

David must have interpreted this from what he found out about the Engineers and LV-223, but if the Intention was to Create Xenomorph Type Organisms,  then why the Sacrificial Scene? Why not Program the Goo with Xenomorph DNA and give that to the Sacrificial Engineer?   Why not Sacrifice a Xenomorph/Deacon instead of a Engineer, unless this does not produce Organisms like the Xenomorph and they had to Evolve a World to have Engineer/Humanoid Life First and then use the Xenomorph Strain on us?

Thats a lot of Effort really, especially as we are shown Female Reproductive Organs can lead to Deacons, and eventually those Eggs, and also if a Xenomorph Queen can lay Eggs...  it just makes little sense to spend Millions of years to get Humans, to then Sacrifice them to the Black Goo to mutate them into Xenomorph like Organisms.

If this was the Purpose, why did the Engineers interact with us, teach us stuff? if we assume without the Engineers we would just be like Cave Men,  then surely dropping Black Goo in Cave Men would still give them the same Xenomorph like Results, indeed even earlier Pre-Man Primates.

Which brings us to the Star Maps dating back to 35'000 years ago, why leave a Map to a Outpost that has only ONE purpose which is Xenomorph related Parasitic Pathogen, why show us a Map to a Bio-Weapons Facility?  Did the Engineers plan this place for the Creation of the Black Goo 35'000 years ago with the intention to one day use it on us?

But then why wait 35'000 years, why leave us Star Maps at different intervals?  Did the Engineers Create and Experiment with the Black Goo 35'000 years ago, and if so HOW did they manage to Maintain/Control it for so long until 33'000 years latter?

Which brings me to Planet 4....

If those Engineers are aware of LV-223 and the Black Goo Pathogen, and more so if this has been the case for 35'000 years,  WHY did they not react with Fear when seeing the Returning Juggernaught?  WHY was there no Safeguards to Protect against the potential for a returning Ship?

*Maybe because when ships return to Planet 4 they NEVER contain the Bio-Weapon this is left on LV-223.

*Maybe because in their NAIVETY they could never comprehend any of their own Race every using the Weapon against them, or indeed Created Races ever being able to Travel the Stars?

*Maybe there are SAFEGUARDS the Docking Ship, and maybe something was released that caused the Engineers to appear to be Burnt in a attempt to Stop the Infection etc.

HOWEVER...

To me the City Plaza with the Hanger and the Buddah like Offering Statues Around it, all sound to me like this RACE take Pride in Self Sacrifice where a Chosen Sacrefice is seen as being Perfect Specimens to Seed their DNA to create Life on a New World....  These Engineers who are Chosen hold it as a Great Honor to be Chosen, they LIVE ON in the Life Created from their Sacrifice and maybe they get a Statue in their Honor Erected in the Plaza?

I therefore think the Juggernaughts are maybe a Evolution to the Tear Drop Ship in Prometheus, and instead of Dropping off a Engineer to Seed his DNA, they now instead Sacrifice the Engineers at some place so their DNA is collected into the Ampoules/Urns and these are dropped onto Worlds instead of the Sacrificial Scene.... were maybe more than ONE Engineer is Sacrificed so their DNA is dropped onto a World to offer more Genetic Diversity.

THIS^^^^ Fits more with the SPACE GARDENERS and would Explain why those Planet 4 Engineers Welcomed the Returning SEEDING Ship... its why Engineers left Star Maps to show us where WE came from because LV-223 is a Nursery/Green House where the Engineers Experiment/Evolve Life to a Satisfactory Level and then Plant them back to Worlds they Visit...

BUT something happened, something that involved what ever Origin was the Xenomorph DNA, the Engineers at least on LV-223 started to Worship the Parasitic Organism that was birthed from some Encounter/Creation and THEY saw this Organism as Potential and began to Experiment and Evolve it until they had Created the Mural Deacon, which they then Sacrificed to get the Black Goo.

These Engineers saw the Deacon DNA as more Perfect than Engineers and chose to EVOLVE Life on Earth (after being displeased with us) so that we would be UPGRADED to the Deacon DNA these Engineers saw as PERFECT..

"sometimes to create, one must first Destroy"

Charza

Feb-12-2018 3:19 AM

I remember this article from almost a year ago: 

https://www.alien-covenant.com/news/engineers-did-not-create-humanity-or-xenomorph

I still think this information might me close to the truth. Those on paradise were not engineers, but another link within the chain, a chain now disrupted by David. After Alien Covenant people rapidly jumped to the conclusion that the Engineer storyline was ditched, and David was the ultimate creator of the creature, and ender of this civilisation. 

With a space faring species like the engineers, who are possibly seeders of galaxies, the possibilities are kind of endless. We should remain open to the idea that Alien Covenant was never meant to be a full exposition and certainly wasn't meant to be an origin story. 

 

 

BigDave

Feb-12-2018 9:15 AM

"So we've reinvented the idea of Alien, I think, which is that Covenant gets us a step closer to who and why was this thing designed to make human beings. And if you think it's them [the Engineers], you're dead wrong."

This is the quote that some took as meaning the Engineers did not create Mankind, but i think RS was referring to the Xenomorph, as the purpose of Alien Covenant was just ONE PLOT well it was based around the Main Plot which was Who/Why would someone create such a Horrific Creature, it Felt Bio-Mechnoid, it felt like a Weapon and Alien Covenant was to start to show us this.

So i think what RS meant was  this part "who and why was this thing designed to KILL human beings"

If we replace the Make with KILL then consider what we thought regarding the Engineers and Xenomorph in Prometheus and then get to what Alien Covenant shows us, then indeed we can see that we all maybe thought it would be the Engineers, but we was dead wrong.... it was David.

But as far as the rest of that article, indeed there was a source i had who had suggested a lot of interesting things, which was that Current Mankind are 4th/5th Generation of our Kind and the Engineers are connected within Mankinds Evolution.   There comments were vague and ambiguous but certainly hinted at Mankind being much older than we are thinking, well earlier versions.  So there comments seem to point to the Sacrificial Scene not being on Earth.

BigDave

Feb-12-2018 9:21 AM

To continue i agree Charza

The scope set up is HUGE, Prometheus laid down a foundation to suggest that we are not looking at the Gods (Engineers) and Mankind, but that actually we are not unique and there are many worlds these Engineers had seeded.

Ridley Scott also after Alien Covenant, mentioned as there are many versions of Mankind, why cant there be many versions of the Engineers....  he also claimed the Engineers are not a RACE but a Civilization and also called those on Planet 4 the ORIGINAL Engineers.   The source did say that the Engineers (LV-223) actually have more in common with David than Mankind.   This seemed like maybe the source was suggesting those Engineers are Engineered Creations...   Now after Alien Covenant and looking how RS said the Planet 4 Engineers were the Originals it could indeed mean those LV-223 Engineers were in effect to the Planet 4 Engineers, as Replicants are to Humans.

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