Mar-11-2019 7:09 AM
Now this would have made the movie so much more enjoyable. What an insane decision to not have Shaw in the movie. I'll never understand studio execs and their ridiculous meddling.
Mar-11-2019 7:12 AM
Same. I was so disappointed to see Shaw underutilized in the sequel. Especially after her build up at the end of Prometheus. I was hoping she would have been the next Ripley, in a sense. She had more ferocity than Daniels, imo.
Mar-11-2019 7:39 AM
Oh boy, a lot of people are going to read “When we met, I had a script in my hand and it was not good. It would have been like Aliens, like an Aliens movie it wasn’t Alien it would have been an Aliens film” & freak out, because that’s the type of movie they would have wanted Prometheus to be!
I’m with Carlos. It’s a pity that Shaw was relegated to being nothing more than a museum exhibit. I recall an early interview with Ridley where he said that the Prometheus sequel would have 2 parallel stories, the Shaw-David angle set against what would become the colonisation mission. It would have been great to have Shaw save the Covenant crew, through sacrificing herself. That would have been very fitting.
Shaw was the main human character, she was on a quest for answers from the Engineer makers. I wouldn’t have had a problem with her eventual demise or becoming a Giger-inspired birthing machine. The way in which she was virtually completely removed from the sequel was shocking. It’s no wonder many people are unsatisfied with Covenant, it never followed through on Shaw’s quest, nor the Engineers or their hierarchy.
When are people finally going to stop blaming Ridley?
Mar-11-2019 7:50 AM
Edit- (couldn't edit my post) what I should have said was the Prometheus sequel would have 2 elements to the story, not 2 parallel stories as I wrote!
Mar-11-2019 8:25 AM
This is old news.
Svanya Wasn't you who said right after the release of Covenant, that Shaw was the excess fat needed to be removed for the movie to be more lean?
Lone Why can't I blame RS for not having a clear plan and sticking to it? But what I truly blame is Force Awakenings and the like who made nostalgia so profitable. Without it we could get something new aside Ripleys and Sarah Connors.
Mar-11-2019 8:55 AM
It was a huge disappointment that Shaw wasn't alive in the film. I read in the artbook of the film I think that one of the reasons of killing her off-screen instead of in the film itself was that it made it all more scary, intimidating, hazardous... Somehow true, but it would be still better to see her on screen. If it would end so brutal and disturbing, there should have been a more explicit implication at the end of Prometheus. The music, the visuals, the tone and atmosphere when Shaw and David left LV-226 with the Juggernaut implicated an adventurous atmosphere for the sequel... A little bit misleading... I think. Maybe the expectations of the audience were mislead by this.
It is sci-fi so they could still bring her back. The engineers who arrive at their devastated homeplanet could bring Shaw back to life. Not as a human, but as half-engineer half-human...
Mar-11-2019 9:09 AM
This is somewhat old news. Killing off Shaw was clearly a major mistake but its done. The need for fresh ideas is large here and maybe Disney can do it. Its clear Fox hasn't got a clue.
Mar-11-2019 9:17 AM
@ignorantGuy I am of the opinion the prologue footage of Shaw and David should have been in the actual movie. I feel the same way about the Blade Runner 2049 Dave Bautista short, "Nowhere to Run, 2048". Their inclusion would have made both movies so much better.
Mar-11-2019 4:45 PM
This is a interesting Interview, the other week there was a post by someone on here who claimed they read about Dr Shaw being in hiding from David... i mentioned i have never seen any such draft, and wondered if it was a case of taking into account something from one of the Set Reports that came out during the release of Alien Covenant, where some reporters had seen a place where Dr Shaw seemed to be HELD UP and they assumed was she in hiding from David.
So this Carlos Huante Interview is interesting and does indeed show us that in a Earlier Draft we had Dr Shaw trying to Hide Away from David.
I am a bit relieved that the Image in the Topic is NOT any work by Huante, and only Fan-Art.. when i saw this Topic and looked at that Image i was like PLEASE dont say that was the Original Plan LOL (The work is a Good Effort but i just dont think that would have been Good.. its maybe much more what a Cameron would have in mind though!).
Regarding the ALIENS kinda Prequel... i assume this appears to be something prior to Alien Engineers, well that draft by Jon Spaights, as while that was more Alieny and Shooty it was not quite a Aliens... But then he could have been talking about Alien Engineers, and the NEW draft being Lindeloffs Paradise.
In HINDSIGHT... the First Prequel would have fared better if it had less Ambiguity than Prometheus and had a few more of the Action-Like Scenes from Alien Engineers.. a 60% Prometheus, 20% Alien Engineers and 20% Filler/Merger Material would have given a better Platform to please the Grumbled Aliens Fans and then allowed the Sequel to go off and do its own thing... and not U-Turn to Spoon Feed/Please Fanboys.
Mar-11-2019 5:00 PM
I think its easy to jump on Alien Covenant and blame this and that, i think with Ridley Scott a thing to remember is that FOX call the shots... if they said RIGHT.. Prometheus 2 needs to be more Alieny, we want Queens and Ripley Connections... and RS was like "No Feckin Way" we still need to remember that THEY (FOX) had the Final Say and they could simply REPLACE the Director, so RS had to come back and agree and make some compromises, from his Interviews it does appear that RS was not 100% happy with the Direction of Alien Covenant, but he made some compromises as long as some of his ideas could be kept.. So he gave the Fans the $"%$^% Aliens.... but he wanted to keep some of his Creation/Rebellion themes and felt placing David as the Creator carried his themes, but it could be a BIG Finger to those who wanted the Xenomorph Back!
Saying that i feel RS was quite a YES-MAN so that he could be kept at least on the Project, he seemed Happy with Alien Engineers, but FOX wanted to TONE-DOWN the Xenomorph Elements and RS appeared pleased with that... he seemed to after Alien Covenant... appear to be in favor of the Chronological Path to take us to ALIEN and not Steer-Way as planned at First.... but then in latter Interviews (after AC disappointed) he appeared to be indicating he was not a Fan of some of the Changes.
I think we have to remember that the Writers would have to report back to RS, so you have to wonder if he came up and said that IDEA is utter Pants... Change it... would that be a decisive move? I suspect that some at FOX would also be part of the Proof Reading the Writing Process and have a lot of their INPUT into how things progressed. So while the Status Quo would be to SET-UP a set of Prequels that would Connect to ALIEN and direct us to how the Xenomorph came to be... We still have to look at the Execution of the Ideas/Route they had taken... which was Flawed and Ask who is really to Blame? Harper? Logan? Ridley Scott? but certainly those at FOX would have the Largest Part to Play as they would be the ONES to Green Light each phase of the Writing Process... I assume that is.
Mar-11-2019 5:28 PM
To Continue with the above...
Regarding some Disappointment/Blame on HOW they threw Dr Shaw under the Bus...
We maybe need to UNDERSTAND the Complexity that the Cliff-Hanger for Prometheus had Set-Up... (They are off to the Planet of the Engineers, to meet these beings who are Not Gods, Not in the Traditional Sense, and Far from Benevolent but David is bringing HELL with him... what happens when the Black Goo infects a God or a Machine).
So before we have Dr Shaw get her Answers or Not and HOW this would go down. A lot would depend as i discussed here after Prometheus... on How-many Engineers are on Paradise and How they would view Dr Shaw and David turning up.
We also have to consider WOULD a movie where we have a Dynamic between Dr Shaw and David on screen like the Crossing, we have to ask would a 40 Min Version of that be something most Fans would want too see?
After this we then would have to Factor in HOW-MANY of our Engineers would be on Paradise and how welcoming they would be to David and Dr Shaw... and so how would any interaction take place between them and a Handful of Would be GODS... or Hundreds or Thousands...
So we get to this PART and we are what a Hour into the Movie then what happens next takes up 30-40 Minutes...
Which could be explored in a number of ways depending on How-Many Engineers there are and How they feel about Unwanted Guests.... then we would have to ask HOW do they pull off the Dialect? David Translating to Dr Shaw like some Extended David, Weyland and Engineer Scene?
Then comes the BIG one.. can a movie work like this with LITTLE/NO Human Characters (other than Dr Shaw)... so then its HOW do we introduce more Characters.... The Covenant Colonist is WHAT they chose.
But you imagine at this point if the Movie went a bit like above.... would adding a 1Hr 30 Min Plot, onto the Beginning of Alien Covenant had worked? They maybe would have had to have the Covenant Arrive at the Final Act... and we END with the Lander Setting off to the Surface...
Then this is where the 3rd movie (Alien Covenant) takes off... unless we had some 3 Hour + Movie.
So when we see the important thing was to give us a Movie that Sets-Up a few sequels to link to ALIEN, where they are going to introduce the Xenomorph, keep some of the Themes but base them around David... and have to introduce Humans so they are placed in this Jeopardy of the Xenomorph, and threat of its Creator David..
Then we can see WHY the Engineers/Dr Shaw had to be by-passed. Alien Covenant was already trying to CRAM so much into under 2 hours (hence Quicker Gestation/Growth Rates of the Xenomorphs) and to add a longer Scene of Dr Shaw and Engineers would have added about 60-90 Min onto the Movie. And would have been trying to ADD too much.
I had mentioned on here a few times way in the past, and after Alien Covenant that there was a WAY they could have introduced Human Characters.. without having to go the Covenant Colonist Route... and had interaction with Dr Shaw, David, some Engineers and Humans... that would have been a little bit like what Raised by Wolves would likely cover. (Humans Raised by Superior Beings, to follow a certain Life/Path that gets Interrupted/Corrupted by the Arrival of other Humans who would raise QUESTIONS for the occupants of said WORLD.
The ideas i had would have worked... because they would have answered WHY would the Engineers Put so much Effort into Mankind who had Not-Pleased the Gods... to then Destroy them.... Particularly if its Knowledge/Free-will that lead to this...
so WHY did God NOT destroy all of Mankind?
Why did he Grant Noah and his Family a way out? So we could consider would the Engineers NOT take some Humans or Children and Raise them on another Place and Leave Earth to ROT?
Or even IF not... surely Earth was not the ONLY place that had Humans or Close Relations in the Galaxy... Earth was surely not the only place the Engineers Seeded... So indeed there was ways to introduce Humans, without having to make The Engineers Home-world close to Earth for the sake of PLOT convenience (how in 28 years we had to get from Prometheus to Alien and introduce Humans).
Mar-11-2019 5:55 PM
Thanks for that Post Dark Nebula
Interesting Break down of the Process of Changes.... It surely would be interesting to see some of those Earlier Drafts!
I had someone who claimed to be have knowledge of the Project but was Cryptic from February 2015, who passed onto someone i know information regarding the supposed October 2014 Drafts.... they claimed on the Contrary that the movie would feature Monsters... it just would not Directly Link to ALIEN but by Virtue of what would be shown we would get a better understanding into WHY and HOW the Xenomorph came to be. They claimed it would Feature TWO Monsters, both we could trace some links to the Xenomorph but both are NOT Xenomorphs... One of these would be a Creation by David... and it was indicated he USED Dr Shaw to obtain this.... they claimed her ROLE was Small but IMPORTANT.. they also gave other information which included that there would be more than ONE David but to not expect a Platoon of Synthetics.
It really would be interesting to see some of those Prior to 2015 Drafts come to light.... as it does seem in part at some earlier point maybe Dr Shaws role would be reduced?
But even looking at what we GOT!
From the Moment David was recovered by Dr Shaw, until the Moment of say where David had Finished his Experiments, and was awaiting the Arrival of others to this place... we have a series of Events, that certainly would Deserve a Novel.
I have interpreted a number of ways that i feel things may have gone down... which i would gladly share again on here... certainly would revolve around Dr Shaw and David before things go to POT.... Because in Part this Aspect
"So they end up going to the city and that’s when David looks at her and tells that story ‘Do you trust me, do you trust that I love you and everything I’m going to do from this point on is because of you and that’s all to protect you’…she looks at him and says ‘Okay, yes I do’ so then he turns around and kills all the Engineers on the planet. It’s his own twisted way of vengeance for her, he kills the planet. She is like ‘Hey, I wanted to talk to these people’ but too late the whole planet is polluted now and everyone on the planet dies."
Is not really the picture i got, i would certainly think David would have left her in Cryo-sleep.. Bombarded the Engineers, then gave her a Reason for WHY it happened.
He would then convince Dr Shaw she has to remain on the Juggernaught due to contamination.... and David would come and go to her, bringing her things to survive... which eventually she would Question... how is he able to get me Food/Drink if this World is so badly infected.... She grows Tired, Lonely and starts to Question what David has said.
She then ventures out and discovers... that actually she would not DIE... then she stumbles on David in his Lab Carrying out Horrific Experiments... does she discover Living or Barely Living Engineer Females and Infants?
Whatever... i feel she makes a Discovery, that means David is lying to her... she is shocked at some of the Horrific things David is doing, this is WHEN he gives her his explanation... and offers Dr Shaw the reason is he is trying to Create a New Paradise for Dr Shaw and that he CAN allow her to have Children as he was trying to figure out HOW he can FIX her inability to have Traditional Fetus....
Dr Shaw Rejects this, and she runs for her Life!
This is WHEN things go to POT for their Relationship.... well this is how i would fill the GAPS in...
Mar-11-2019 10:53 PM
I am of the opinion the prologue footage of Shaw and David should have been in the actual movie.
Agreed. Additionally, all of the teasers would have made the movie much better imo.
I slagged Shaw for Prometheus but flipped after seeing the prologue. If only...
Mar-12-2019 1:08 AM
@ignorantGuy Fair enough, but I always felt that Ridley did have a concrete plan, both for Prometheus & then Covenant, but he had to buckle down to the powers that be.
Granted that's not good, but he tried to fight to keep some things in. For example, the studio wanted to completely scrap the Engineer bombing sequence, Ridley fought for what remains of the scene.
Also, I feel The Crossing was originally intended to be included too, but again the only way Ridley managed to hold onto it was via additional marketing.
Plus, remember that beautiful renaissance styled poster with the Engineers & Aliens entwined? How did that come about as opposed to the Run, Hide etc egg posters? It pointed to a different story. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an absolute shed load of filmed footage which is lying around in some storage room which backs that up!
It's easy for us to say that he caved, but what would anyone do under those pressures, when your options are either do what the studio wants or walk away entirely from what you put so much effort into.
Mar-12-2019 9:02 AM
@Lone but what did that scene actually provide from a narrative p.o.v? Wasn't it merely awe inducing? If Fox would have been smart they would have reduce the budget by quite a bunch by not filming that scene.
Well all I know is that Rs is foremost a business man so he probably never though to quite. But I wonder, if he removed an actor because of rape charges, the resurgence in 2018 of Fassbender's 2010 domestic abuse would entail for his Alien avatar (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5392861/Michael-Fassbender-domestic-abuse-claims-resurface.html). I don't think that Disney will like to commit to this mess.
Maybe they did not kill off the right character (but they are such great business men).
Mar-12-2019 9:35 AM
ignorantGuy the Daily Mail article ends like this:
"Fassbender has never commented publicly on Andrews' claims, but his mother Adele told the Daily Mail at the time: 'Anyone who knows Michael at all knows that it’s a complete fabrication.'
Mar-12-2019 9:48 AM
I think NOT having the Bombardment Scene would have caused some ambiguity to what happened to those Engineers, i am sure the Dead Engineers were PART of the Drafts that Harper/Logan worked on... The Bombardment Scene was to show us HOW this happened... would it have been needed? For some maybe not! As some hints or direct acknowledgement by David in regards to he caused their deaths would have sufficed.
I think a number of people are upset we never saw much from Dr Shaw, she would have been the Anchor Point and our Proxy to what she would have discovered... her Character was Flawed.... but as Noomi had mentioned, she felt that they could have done some interesting things with her Character, giving some indication that she would have liked to had brought changes to her.
For a Naive Scientist in Denial of her Discovery, Clutching at Straws to her FAITH. They kind of Discovery she could have made when she arrived to meet her MAKERS could have Crushed her Faith.... and Broken Her... this could have led to a Interesting Arc in her Character... you could ponder such a Revelation could cause her to want to PULL THE TRIGGER on these False Gods.
As i had mentioned in this Topic, and a few times before Alien Covenant came out, or the Trailers.. Dr Shaw has NOTHING!...... apart from her FAITH and a Quest for some Answers... ONCE she gets Answers that are Much Further from the Truth she felt her Faith Showed... then she truly has NOTHING!
I felt this is WHEN we could have had David suggest that he could discover a way so that Dr Shaw could Conceive Humanoid Off-Spring so THEY can then make a New Paradise of the Hell they Discovered.... this in Part is one of the routes i was going to expand on Prometheus sequels. I feel this would have been a Interesting Idea to follow on, after David Unleashes Hell on these False Gods!
Regarding that Apocalyptic Poster..
I felt it proved to be a Red Herring... it was a Marketing Ploy that was used to Hook Fans in.... and well we saw NOTHING like it in the Movie!
We have to Ponder WHY did they create this? Was it purely to LURE the fans in... but this was not needed as the Trailers and other Posters basically showed the Fans they was going to get EGGS, FACE HUGGERS and the BIG BOY (Xenomorph).
You could speculate is this something that happened in the Past? But then is it not indicated the Xenomorph was not around until David created it.
Is it something that could happen in Future? But then its indicated there are NO-MORE of the Engineers on Planet 4... but thats not to say this kind of Apocalyptic Scene could not happen to other Engineers in the Galaxy.
It certainly does-not represent what happened after the Bombardment of the Engineers. Maybe some Engineers went into Hiding, and David Unleashed a Horde of Xenomorphs upon them?
ULTIMATELY it was maybe there just for the sake of being COOL.... and so just ending up being Misleading like maybe the Prometheus Fresco's and Murals were too.
Mar-15-2019 3:54 PM
I don't know if ALIEN: Manticore 'Paradise' will satisfy everyone's 'wishlists' regarding Prometheus and Covenant storylines, but it'll close a lot of gaps, and answer some questions--no way can it answer them all, of course.
But, it should scratch a few 'itches' at least, and I want you all to know that your posts and such are invaluable to me regarding development, for which I Thank-You all. Thus, my stories are my way of returning something to you all, and keeping the essence of the franchise vitally, droolingly alive.
Mar-16-2019 4:50 AM
IMO Noomi Rapace should have had a lead role in Alien: Covenant. Her relegation to an offscreen death and the macabre pornography of her remains is, in my view a discredit to the character of Dr. Elizabeth Shaw and to the acting talents of Rapace herself (compare Michael Fassbender's David and Walter performance to Rapace's performances in What Happened to Monday).
However, I would not have liked to see her become, as Katherine Waterston's Daniels became, a Ripley-lite. The character of Ripley had her time and place in Alien, Aliens and Alien 3.
Instead, I personally would have had the crew of the USSCS Covenant, after landing on the planet split into two teams (one heading for the Juggernaut, the other the city), with one team meeting a disheveled David, as we saw, and the other team meeting a sickly Shaw, the latter presumably hiding from the former.
From there I would have shown that the Engineers, not David, had been researching the Xenomorph from eggs discovered on LV-426 (an ambiguous back door into Alien), but that the release of the black pathogen from Shaw and Davids Juggernaut against the Engineer city has mutated the Xenomorph specimens (the Protomorphs) and created newer specimens from the planets flora (the Neomorph spores).
The mystery and suspense would come from whether the crew of the covenant should trust David or Shaw. Is Shaw's deterioration from her contact with the pathogen changing her to emphasize with the creature or is she just a victim; has David devolved into a genocidal maniac or is he protecting humankind from a deadly alien weapon.
The movie could have ended with the reveal that both Shaw and David were playing the Covenant crew as fools and that after Shaw's inevitable death, their plan is revealed - that David and Shaw lured the Covenant to the Engineer city world so that David could use it to take him to LV-426 where he would use the 2000 colonists with the eggs to be found there and continue the Engineers 2000 year old plan of wiping out mankind.
A further twist could be that as her contamination from the pathogen continued Shaw's humanity was replaced with something "Alien", which fell in line with Davids anti-human views. This would infer that the Alien has a purpose and possible intelligence, which together with the revelation that the Engineers found the eggs on LV-426, not developed them would have reinstated the Alien as the primary antagonist of the franchise. As it was, and as it should be.
Mar-16-2019 7:19 AM
We still cannot rule out that the Engineers, not David, had been researching the Xenomorph from eggs discovered on LV-426. In the novelisation David found some eggs on the planet. Although that part was not in the movie, when he referred to the Enginners banishing the wolf, that wolf could be the xenomorph.
I don't know if we can connect the colour of the pathogen, black, with the colour of the original xenomorph from Alien. Why wasn't the pathogen green, like the crystal in Prometheus? Or red? The pathogen was a radical form of AI. The Big Chap looked like an AI. Who made them? Who made the Engineers? Who was the Space Jockey the Engineers were mimicking in their suits? I don't believe David is the Space Jockey.
Until now I wanted the Space Jockey to remain a mistery, but no more, I need to know who is the big guy. I need the complete story.
Mar-16-2019 7:47 AM
The Juggernaut has the shape of the biomechanical creature from the mural above, inspired by the Ancient Egyptian goddess Nut and we can see the eggs are produced by this Mother vessel. The eggs were produced by the Juggernaut and that could explain the biomechanical nature of the xenomorph. The ship is the queen,.JC. And the Space Jockey is another race, a god of the Engineers, who created them and had them perform cruel rituals in his honour. He was on his way with another supply when the fatality occurred.
David learned about this story and planned to become a god for the colonists, get them through the same rituals and create an army of xenomorphs that can be controlled by a human-xenomorph hybrid, his queen.
Mar-16-2019 8:02 AM
In Ancient Egyptian mythology, Nut swallows the sun at dusk, which travels through her body at night to be reborn at dawn.
Quite an inspiration for the lifecycle of xenomorph.
Mar-16-2019 8:09 AM
I think another proof that David did not created the xenomorph, he only recreated his own wolf, is the chestburster. David's chestburster cannot evolve into the original chestburster that looks primordial by comparison.
Mar-16-2019 5:08 PM
To some degree i find that could have been interesting, it would go against what we would expect by Dr Shaw.. but its interesting to speculate that she was in part infected with the Black Goo still, that begins to re-write her Character/Brain. This is interesting because it would show that the Viral Infection would Brainwash infected Victims. Ridley Scott was a fan of the Parasitic Wasps that would Mind Control Ants... so that fits.. it would be similar to how a person changes when they are infected by a Vampire. They are NO longer the same person, but use their previous Character/Personality to take advantage of others and Manipulate them... I think such a Plot Twist would have been interesting.
I think however when looking at the Themes of Prometheus it seemed to set up that lower levels of Sub-Creation Rebel and would want to peruse their own Sub-Creation which the David ARC clear fits, and i was drawn to the Hopeful/Wishful Discovery of our Gods and Creation and Reasons for it that Dr Shaw may have expected.. would be NOTHING as such.... and having a revelation we are used purely to replace the Engineers as Hosts would have been a fitting and Horrific Truth for Dr Shaw to Discover..
But that Plot Twist regarding HOW the Black Goo infection can reprogram our minds/purpose is interesting. The ambiguity of Prometheus and the Crossing allows us to ponder all sorts of ways to continue.. I thought Dr Shaw looked drained/ill due to the lack of Nutrition she would have had to had survived off after the Prometheus was destroyed.
But if we assume Dr Shaw became Pregnant with either a Infected Holloway Sperm, or the Black Goo comprised of Nano Organisms/Particles that either Mutated one of her Eggs, or Grouped together and used her Womb to Gestate.. THEN we would still have to wonder what becomes of the Thousands and Thousands of other Nano Organism/Particles or infected Sperm?
So you could wonder if it would be a bit ODD if these just died off and had no effect, like unused Sperm would (as only ONE in Millions Fertilizes the Egg). But then we could ask how come the SPORES only Produce One Neomorph, when maybe Multiple could Gestate in a Host looking at the Many Spores that could ENTER the Body.
Mar-16-2019 5:27 PM
I will add that its ALMOST Certain the Intention of Prometheus 2 would have NOT been that David is revealed as the Creator of the Original Xenomorph... but no doubt he would have used the Black Goo to Create something related.
It seems this route of David Creates it is something that does-not settle well with MOST.. but it maybe Clutching at Straws for him to NOT play a Role and Reveal the Eggs was on LV-426 all along... at this point in TIME... but who knows what the Future Holds... as Disney could REBOOT the Prequels.
Right now i think DAMAGE Control is the way to go, we only need to look at the Mural in Prometheus and see this place was used to create that Organism that was regarding in HIGH ESTEEM by the Engineers.
If the Engineers Hierarchy see that Mankind has Created a more Superior being than they could (David) and then seen our more Superior Creation has Created a more Superior Destructive Monster than they (Engineers) ever could (Davids Xenomorphs) then looking at the THEMES of Prometheus which Creation and Perfection are KEY... then the Engineers Hierarchy could view David and his Xenomorph as the more PERFECT Creations compared to Engineers, Mankind and the Horrors the Engineers Created on LV-223.
This Hierarchy or Engineers Creators could see a Amalgamation of David and his Xenomorph as Perfect and then show them Experiment on Synthetics/Xenomorphs to then PERFECT the Organism and this ends up on LV-426.
This makes David merely the Middle Man as without our Creation then David would NOT exist, and without the Black Goo Experiments by the Engineers, David would not have the TOOLS to create his Monster in Alien Covenant.
It would maybe be further fitting if another Race, Created the Engineers who Rebelled against their Creators and this RACE attempted to Destroy the Engineers but instead the Method of Destruction was used by the Engineers to Perfect themselves instead.
This would be much like IF the Black Goo lead to Davids Xenomorph which leads to those in ALIEN/ALIENS and the Company Finally did Manage to Obtain and Control the Xenomorph, then a Weapon Intended for our Destruction would have ended up leading to a Weapon Mankind Controls and Benefits from!
WHY could this sort of thing not also have happened prior... as in Weapon intended for Engineers, ends up Benefiting them instead... but Ultimately in the END it costs them.
If David is relegated to the Middle Man, and the Engineers Hierarchy or Creators use Synthetics and Davids Xenomorphs to create the LV-426 Xenomorph then its FITTING that these beings Hubris is the Pursuit of doing this which leads to one of them being that Pilot on the Derelict.
I feel this would be Damage Control Route, that does not piss all over Prometheus/Alien Covenant but also does-not damage the Xenomorph as bad as it has been.
The introduction of another RACE that is 12ft Tall, and introduce a Surreal HR Giger, Lovecraftian Plot to them, is also a way to take the Higher Levels of the Creation Plot to a whole NEW and ALIEN level... that fits more with what HR Gigers Vision was.
Mar-16-2019 5:47 PM
"We still cannot rule out that the Engineers, not David, had been researching the Xenomorph from eggs discovered on LV-426."
In context to that comment, this draws us back to Prometheus.. if we say go back to prior to 2013, then indeed the LV-426 Eggs had to be either the Origins of the Experiments on LV-223 or a result of the Experiments on LV-223... Ridley Scott kind of confirmed the latter. Even giving a Rough Date, and the Fate of the Space Jockey.
When looking at the Novel... i am sure that Alan Dean Foster had a earlier pre-shooting draft to work off, and he assumed from this the Engineers had Encountered it prior and so he added that Dialog/Scene with Oram where David claimed he FOUND the Egg as it was... YET i am sure this was not the case with the Drafts that ADF had to work off.
Another thing that could allow Fans to Dispute the David Created it, was in the Art-Work... which was used in Davids Workshop, which shows Classic Xenomorph and Chest Buster.. which could be used to suggest David just Re-Engineered the Original Xenomorph.. or if not he Engineered the Earlier ones, and then Evolved it to what we got in Alien Covenant... but then WHY does the Company Pursue the Original Kind or how this earlier works by David end up on LV-426 instead of his own kind... but then maybe BOTH do... because the Derelict had been intended to have Many Different Variants. Which could help explain the differences between Alien and Aliens Xenomorphs.
Ultimately they are just Art-Work that they thought some would be cool to add to Davids Work-shop even though they are not maybe anything he worked on, this is the same with the various drawings of Dr Shaw. But such things can always lead Fans down the Wrong Path or open up a Debate.
If we go by every Drawing in Davids Workshop represents something David had Created or Encountered, then that would suggest that David also Created or Encountered this too.
I do however agree that the route to have the Xenomorph something that is NO-LONGER many Thousands of Years Old is a mistake, its a case of would they ever do anything to suggest this is the case or not? At the moment it leaves it open to debate.
While RS said this is NOT the case... things can change, as of Prometheus he had CONFIRMED the Derelict/Space Jockey was a Event that was THOUSANDS of years old.... which conflicts Alien Covenant.
Until the Prequels Conclude with the Exact LV-426 Cargo, or show Davids Xenomorphs become more Bio-Mechanical and have the Original Chest Buster, then its open for debate.
Mar-16-2019 5:58 PM
Indeed i had discussed this a number of times, and as of after Prometheus, when thinking about a Prometheus 2 and 3 and trying to figure how i would have taken it... then indeed i was also drawn to going back to HR Gigers Concepts.
These showed me the following..
*The Space Jockey was a Space Suit, its Occupants Bald Humanoids.
*The Derelict Ship and Xenomorph had a Aesthetic/Molecular Connection.
*The Ship or its Cargo Hold appeared to Create the Eggs (something which HR Giger had also mentioned).
*There appeared to be some Symbiotic Relationship between the Ship/Cargo and those Humanoids. What caused this Mutual Agreement, or which are the MASTERS.
If we look at David, then WHY was he created? To be a Companion?, to Show what Achievements Weyland had made (prove his Worth), to be a beloved Son that Weyland never had?
Ultimately his kind (Synthetics) were made to Serve, and Ultimately we see he Rebels.... i feel this THEME had been repeated before with Mankind, and so WHY-NOT the Engineers Prior?
This is ONE of the Main Themes of Prometheus... Creation, Rebellion, Revolt against Servitude. And so i was going to explore that the Engineers were Created, or Engineered from another Race to Serve for some Sacrificial Purpose for some other Race (The STARBEAST) they Rebelled, overthrow their Masters, and use their Masters Technology to Enhance themselves and then Sub-Create for themselves.
This allows another Layer to be introduced that is very ALIEN and Lovecraftian which is HOW i think HR Giger viewed the Franchise.
Mar-19-2019 9:37 AM
“I think it was a studio call as to why she didn’t return. What a shame”
At least the studio (Fox) did something right, it would have been boring go go through another movie with her annoying crap at least if she would have been like she was in Prometheus. She was better in The Crossing
“It’s no wonder many people are unsatisfied with Covenant, it never followed through on Shaw’s quest, nor the Engineers or their hierarchy."
Lone, I never gave a damn about Shaw but the Engineers were interesting. I would have liked to see more of them in what became Covenant. Getting rid of the Engineers made the movie worse if you ask me.
As far as studio interference goes I do not blame Scott for everything but his ideas are not very good. I think that Fox or whatever they are called now should have nothing to do with the story telling, leave it to those that are able to do that.
About David and the Xeno, I felt like the Xeno was just thrown in there without Ridley caring about it. It got smashed by a crane very shortly afterwards. Ridley only cared about the robot and we have what we have.
“I suspect that some at FOX would also be part of the Proof Reading the Writing Process and have a lot of their INPUT into how things progressed.”
No thanks, they do not know what writing is. They all did a mess because it is a collective effort. Blaming one persons (like they did with Lindelof in P) isn’t fair, they all messed up in their own way. Get someone that can write characters or else it will be crap.
Mar-20-2019 4:04 PM
"it would have been boring go go through another movie with her annoying crap"
It maybe could be the Studio had taken note of Fan Reaction to Dr Shaw and the Engineers, as Fans were disappointed with both... but i discussed this before, what we got was a way to show how you can take a Interesting Character from the First Movie and well Screw It up of sorts for the Sequel. on the Flip Side they could have taken Dr Shaw and gave her a interesting ARC to make her more interesting as Noomi surely was limited a bit by the Character Given/Written.
They have to get out of the Habit of just Writing Off Characters, instead of looking how we can learn from the mistakes and improve them for the Sequel.... The Plot Set-up does make things a little Limited Though.. because you have to have David be a part of the Sequel, but a lot of Fans have lost interest, but just killing him off screen would not be the way to go... he would have to play some role! Then its do we continue with Daniels?
If we decide to in EFFECT write them both off, then the Studio have to ASK, how many movies NOW do we do that connect to ALIEN.. because they cant introduce NEW Characters, that maybe their Future would Hang-on HOW-WELL the next movie did.. AND... we cant really introduce NEW Characters to then have them KILLED OFF in say Alien Covenant 3 or killed off prior!
Getting Characters Right is Paramount, its ok having a Character Pass the Torch, so say Daniels Survives until ACT 3 then passes the Torch to another NEW introduced Character who appears by ACT 2
But to By-Pass Daniels and David like the Engineers and Dr Shaw was in Alien Covenant, would not be ideal, unless the NEW Characters are going to appear in AT-LEAST a few movies.... or the NEXT MOVIE would be a ONE-MOVIE connection to ALIEN and the Prequels are then DONE/DUSTED.
Regarding the Engineers, certainly they was not to everyone's taste in Prometheus, but those in Alien Covenant seemed to look even LESS Un-Awe Inspiring than those in Prometheus. Chances are any return would be of those LV-223 Engineers who will just be on a Rampage, they will give No Answers, Ask No Questions and just Turn-Up to Kick Ass like the Predators....
I expect them to basically be portrayed like the Predators apart from the Aesthetic Difference in Appearance of their Ships and Physical Appearance... so they would both be portrayed as 7-8ft Tall, Alien Species who go around Killing Humans and Xenomorphs using their Superior Strength and Technology.
I certainly agree the writing Process of Alien Covenant was Chaotic and i dont think was not the best way to had pursued a sequel.