Dec-26-2016 8:35 AM
Interesting ideas Chris! I find your analysis to be quite thorough, and the concept that "David has become an Engineer" really got my head spinning ; )
But there is something interesting:
"However, the scene was cut and so canonically, we can only assert that the cloak was specific to the Sacrificial Engineer."
Elders were mentioned...so....????????????
Love the post Chris, upvoted!!!
Dec-26-2016 8:39 AM
I wonder did he made the cloak by himself or he found it somewhere in the engineer temples.Well I suppose he made it.
I mean if he found it why would he wear a cloak made for a 10ft giant.
Maybe he's wearing it to hide his identity,to fool the crew into thinking that its Walter idk. Or he's wearing it because he wanted to play God,be the engineer idk.
Long before the trailer came out on some topic I mentioned how I envisioned some banner for AC that had David wearing a cloak,standing on a hill and watching a human ship landing in far distance.
Coincidence?I think not.
Dec-26-2016 8:53 AM
Does this possibly point towards Shaw giving birth to an alien queen? The egg came from somewhere. And with David playing mad scientist...
Dec-26-2016 9:33 AM
For me, he's just wearing his coat so he will not be recognized, there's nothing too much else. But for a moment I thought, and if David, after seeing his resemblance to Walter, would he kidnap him in order to take his place on board Covenant, thus giving birth to Proto or even Xeno?
Dec-26-2016 9:40 AM
He's holding a flare gun hence why the light goes out and he's reloading
Dec-26-2016 9:46 AM
If the planet is not the homeworld of the Engineers but the planet where one of them made sacrifice to create new life as we saw in the begining of Prometheus, and if David is wearing the robes to make Engineers feel more comfortable around him because he is working with them as he wearing clothes around humans as the post mentioned and he said in the movie.
David and Shaw in the end of Prometheus targeted the Paradise where the Engineers came from. What if they reached and after David came to the planet where he met whit the Covenant's crew. What if the crew landed on the planet couple of them got infected, one person impregnated with an alien embryo, things gone wrong and after they went back to the Covenant with David and in the end he talk about Paradise and Shaw and they headed to that planet.
If there will be anoter movie(s) after Covenant as Ridley said, i think he doesn't show it to us yet because on Paradise are all the answers in my opininon. And why he changed the name of the movie?
What do you think? Or maybe David and Shaw just not reached Paradise after all and crashed on this Planet, or this is that planet?
Dec-26-2016 9:47 AM
god damm bulshit! the xeno was created long before david! ridly scott fakine the all story!
Dec-26-2016 9:50 AM
Eggs aliens existed millions of years ago And you can see it in the first film, Ridley Scott just faking
Dec-26-2016 10:43 AM
In my point of view David use Shaw as a host to mix black goo and human dna. Finally she gave birth an alien queen which laid the eggs we saw. David probably became an engineer using the covenant crew to experiment.
This planet is not the homeworld of the engineers..
Dec-26-2016 11:03 AM
I don't believe this is David.
A L I E N 4 2 6
Dec-26-2016 11:12 AM
dude, Ridley DIRECTED the ORIGINAL film. It's his baby and he can do whatever he wants with it. People like you who think you can do better are the reason we get bad films. And the eggs LOOKED old. We never got confirmation on HOW old. Also, David may not be creating them for the first time. He may just be RE-creating them
Dec-26-2016 11:15 AM
At the end of prometheus Shaw asked David to take her to the homeland.. so whether they have crash landed here or this is the homeland we won't know till May.
Ridley said in an intervie that this movie would answer all the questions from prometheus that people were baffled by and it would show how these aliens would be formed (clearly by the dna manipulating black goo)
It may only be flashbacks of Shaw in this movie but apparently David has been on this planet experimenting with the goo... and it is he who coaxes the captain in to see the eggs, to which he gets face hugged. * defo think it's David and not Walter in that scene*
I believe the engineers are going from planet to planet creating organisms and using the goo to either change dna or wipe the species out. And when you see the dead engineers in prometheus with the holes in their chests then obviously it doesn't always go to plan.. they were clearly running from some type of xeno in that scene. Maybe the snake alien that killed the biologist was a transformation of the small worms we seen when they first discovered the jars of goo
So this planet is possibly the same and that's why the environs are dangerous i.e the spores into his ear.
All the planets have been different from the one in aliens to the one in prometheus and now this one. The engineers are clearly just using them as test areas and when they go badly wrong they do a runner.
That's my thoughts anyway. Can't wait until May
Dec-26-2016 11:23 AM
See this film interesting triangle: engineers, xenomorf and humans And the connections between them. Since humans are inferior, I love the idea that engineers have created them,But xenomorf should be another step of human and race That was not created by engineers.What is similar between engineers and xenomorph ? Engineers are the most intelligent race in the universe and Hzinomorf are physically perfect race in the universe, hence it can be assumed that engineers do a merger between their intelligence amazing physical abilities of xenomorph. that is the story ridly need to do
Dec-26-2016 11:27 AM
And make no mistake:This is not the star of the engineers but engineers managed just as they were planning to bomb the Earth.Ultimately this idea quite poor dumb race like xenomorph destroy the engineers.
Dec-26-2016 11:29 AM
A L I E N 4 2 6 You do not got any balls
and you do not even require consistency from the director, very Lamo
Dec-26-2016 11:39 AM
Chris, I am resolutely avoiding spoilers as I wish to be genuinely surprised by the over arching story and the banner moments which are included in the trailer as they happen in the movie but the cloak is I believe an important part of the jigsaw and one worth extrapolating over.
For those who do not know of my posts here I have no connections with anyone involved with the films so my observations are merely observations.
The cloak is highly symbolic because it tells us two things :-
1) David views himself as an Engineer with all that implies rather than quasi man kind that will shape his thinking toward his decision to bait the Covenant and what his intensions are on arrival. It perfectly positions who he has become.
2) The thought that he is now a lone engineer rather than the lone "synthetic" of the early synopsis (which has disappeared) plays into my views on the disaster of Paradise. I always held a 20% view he was responsible as opposed to an 80% chance of the hierarchy bringing down punishment. I believe now he triggered the disaster on Paradise as I described it earlier in the summer "a synthetic with issues". Why ?
1) Janek was right LV223 was a separate and dangerous military establishment. David left there bringing hell, the goo, which has airborne potential in a heathy atmosphere (David knew in a poor atmosphere it was neutralised, in a terraformed environment lead to the disaster on LV223, with the head room acting as a bunker. After all they were not taking thousands of vials to earth just to pop them in the water supply).
2) The Engineers in there death throes look up at the Juggernaut dissembling death, which David later lands, and of course the goo has all sorts other outcomes. During this period we know Shaw is largely incapacitated but then her narrative can shoot off in several directions not least being at the mercy of David's re creation agenda with her own black goo issues.
3)David has baited the Covenant and he can feel confident that they will not discover the catastrophic death scene having burnt the corpses leaving only impressions and residue which will only be discovered on much closer inspection by Daniels. In the same way the corrupted eco system will only become apparent with close contact.
4) David is in control has had ten years to understand the tools and knowledge of both the benign and the fallen Engineers. He will have watched the effect of the Black Goo on the eco system, considered the evolving creature and given thought on witnessing the Covenant as to what more can be achieved.
This arrangement draws Prometheus into the narrative, explains the deaths of the Engineers on LV223, and leaves the question of the hierarchy and Space Jockey still to come though on the latter all the parts are in place to deal with that through the Covenant narrative.
David will have a fascinating interaction with Walter whom I see as the victim of David's ambitious for Bio Mechanical outcomes and may even try Bishop strategy's from A 3 when cornered by Daniels who herself is a terraforming engineer - a space gardener as it were - kindred spirits.
Thrilled with the reaction to the trailer it is having exactly the effect discussed and anticipated "Its an Alien movie stupid" to coin a phrase of the successful Clinton.
Dec-26-2016 11:39 AM
The thoughts of this photo is that David comes to the rescue of the crew that remain after their shuttle is destroyed, thus this being his introduction to the crew and to us watching the film. He helps in assisting the when they are sighting the two Neomorphs who are around the area (seen in the 15 minute footage shown to the reporters). I believe david will then take them back to the cave as we see in the Trailer, from there Cudrup is infected by the face hugger by David or by Walter not reacting but some how Crudup gets back to ship and thus gives birth to the Protomorph, the Alien we see in the shower at the end of trailer. Also note that the Covenant has a total crew of 200 colonist and it would be ideal for David to take over this ship for his agenda but as of now, the whole plot is under wraps and maybe in a month or so another trailer will come out that gives us more insight to the plot of the film and maybe more of david's evolution and intentions in this film.
Dec-26-2016 11:43 AM
s were in a spaceship in the first movie came out xenomorph which existed long before David made them, Ridley Scott falsifies the facts
Dec-26-2016 11:48 AM
Thanks for the upvote Facehuggers!
And I'm pretty sure this is in fact David. The trailer didn't shy away from showing Walter but David's appearances were all shadowed and secretive.
@namtraz, a flare gun makes sense. He could be using it to alert the Covenant of his presence as they're landing, perhaps?
Dec-26-2016 11:50 AM
Good post Chris :)
I'd say he found the cloak either on the ship or in the temples/his 'cave'; but it does make quite an obvious visual parallel to what he is doing/has been doing and what the engineers were doing, I think . . . It's a cool image, no doubt!
I have no fixed theory on this, Chris, for a few reasons but I do feel that David's actions may surprise us in this film. We expect all bad but there may be a twist where he is concerned. Likewise with Walter, who could turn out to be less altruistic than we may at first imagine.
I think it's very probable that one of the above will impersonate the other at some point. Also, quite a popular idea but the theory that David will use Walter in his plans somehow is one I also buy into . . .
Really can't wait to see Fassbender's performances in this film and what has happened/is happening to Shaw . . .
Dec-26-2016 12:01 PM
This just occurred to me:
Could this imply that David himself set fire to the Covenant?
Dec-26-2016 12:09 PM
I sure do! He wanted to keep them so he blew up their spacecraft
Dec-26-2016 12:15 PM
If im not mistaken...
According to the footage description.It was some woman who was trying to shoot the neomorph but she accidentally shot the tank and blew up the ship.
I suppose the trailer was edited to look like it was David.
Dec-26-2016 12:16 PM
Could be FH but on the trailer it looks like the woman shooting at the neomorph hits something that blows up? Could that be the start of a chain reaction that blows the ship up?
I like the idea above of David coming to 'rescue' the crew when the ship has gone . . . 'come to my safe lair muah ha ha ' ;)
Dec-26-2016 12:21 PM
In the next chapter we will probably go to Engineers worls
Dec-26-2016 12:25 PM
This is probably the same scene where David shows up. They are on the defensive after the two Neomorphs are roaming around out there...David is coming toward the lights.
Dec-26-2016 12:40 PM
David admires the engineers. When he entered the juggernaut and walked up the stairs he said: 'A superior species. No duobt'. And 'Mortal after all.' Maybe he wants be like an engineer, but better... stronger and more powerful. He had 10 years to study them... If it is the homeplanet of the engineers... then why is it such a lethal environment?? Doesn't make sense right? Maybe David had really something to do with the death of the engineers... and changed the planets ecosystem extremely... What if the David wakes up all engineers that are in cryo sleep on the planet and unleash them upon Daniels? On the leaked pictures, we've seen Daniels and another character in front of an temple (without engineer corpses). What if David manipulates/programs the engineers to kill Daniels and the other survivor because they are destroying his plan? However the engineers tried to enter the temple, but lot of them are dead...
Another question... What is inside the temple? We've just seen the stairs and the gate...Whats inside? A more superior being? Davids palace? More biological weapons?? What do you think?
What if the engineers are synthetic and don't really have a homeplanet? What if they are created by something divine? Who created them? And why?
Dec-26-2016 12:49 PM
David is probably naturally burnette, since he has no hair dye now, i think it will play a big part in the audience and the crew's confusion of who we think david or walter really is..
Dec-26-2016 2:07 PM
What if David, finds the details to the xenomorphs, in one of the temples, perhaps they are the pinnacle that the engineers had achieved with the black goo.
This would explain why the alien eggs in the derelict juggernaut on LV426 are so old.
Maybe David is just trying to recreate the Xenomorphs, otherwise how would he know what the end result he is trying to achieve?
Dec-26-2016 2:12 PM
Ridley Scott said he was making "two" other films, (2) sequels to this film. He stated that the answer for why the Space Jockey was there and why he got an alien inside him will be answered in the next two films. So, in this film we will start to see that evolution in the story arc and well, this film will end in a cliff hanger fashion as Prometheus did.
Dec-26-2016 3:40 PM
I think the cloaks are/were common...
if you watch the hologram recording in the juggernaut that David starts you can see what looks like the main engineer in the group getting ready for cryosleep looks as if he is taking off a cloak/cape of some kind
also, in the topic pic it looks like a grenade launcher is what he is holding and about to load.
maybe he is the one who destroys the lander
just an FYI
Dec-26-2016 3:47 PM
I think we will see David there in that cloak about 40 minutes in, and we won't see Shaw til toward the end of the movie, but when we do, she will be attached to a biomachine in a wall somewhere similar to this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GHKxfu66_Bs/VebbJ7YkcvI/AAAAAAAAU8w/bKr53BgRqAE/s1600/stillbirth%2Bmachine%2B313.jpg
i think she will have been kept alive by David to keep producing his "children"
Dec-26-2016 4:16 PM
I don't think my parents will let me watch the movie with imagery like that XD
Dec-26-2016 4:19 PM
"The character is David, the maniacal android from Prometheus who escaped LV-223..."
Pretty sure I wouldn't describe David as "maniacal." Actually his actions were in complete accordance with his mission.
Dec-26-2016 4:33 PM
Well first Happy Holidays.... 2nd the Trailer proves a lot of the one leak was not true, but the Spores on was, and also one on 4chan is accurate the other that most on other sites think is accurate is not...
First i will quickly tackle @ido lam
welcome aboard, and indeed the Derelict looked ancient, but there is no shred of proof to how long it had been there.... Prometheus is the only clue.... (Chest Busted Cryo-Engineers from over 2000 years ago) so was this coincidence?
Ridley had prior to Prometheus and after mentioned the Space Jockey was a event from thousands of years ago. So indeed you have a right to argue against a Xeno creation after Prometheus..... but we dont know where they are taking us now... but i would not be too concerned... as... Noonespecial mentioned and welcome aboard to them too.
"Maybe David is just trying to recreate the Xenomorphs, otherwise how would he know what the end result he is trying to achieve"
There is a lot to back up the Ancient Xenomorph event, but Ridley did Tag the one Prop of the Hand as were it all begins... but then he also said they are coming into Alien from the read end/back door.... Maybe we need consider Star Wars that was never Phantom Menace to Return of the Jedi.. we had EP 4-6 then 1-3... and so that means the Space Jockey event could be covered as a past movie/flash back.
Dec-26-2016 5:02 PM
@Dark Nebula good point
The Robe is near enough the same as the Engineers apart from the size...
This has 3 possible implications.
1) Its a oversight we are not meant to notice... (another Ridley Scale Mess up). And it is a Engineer Cloak.
2) The Engineers at the start or Prometheus and those in the scene of disaster are not as tall as the Space Jockey/LV-223 Engineers...
Space Jockey maybe more Ancient? Engineers maybe similar to Genesis 6:4
3) David manages to make a smaller cloak from a Engineers.
Indeed nice to see in part you are on the same level of thinking as I...
There has to be a meaning to the cloak...
It could just be a sneaky way the Production can hide that David is different to Walter without having to shoot Fassbender with Blonde and Brown Hair Scenes.
or it could have symbolic implications...
The Sacrificial Engineers has these robes, but so did the Elders, it must have been a Ritual Dress of the Ancient Engineers and does not have to imply David is going to play to play or has played a Sacrifice.. at least not as far as him being the Sacrifice.
The Robe is a Relic, a artifact from a Ancient Race who seeded worlds many Millions if not longer years ago... a deed of great importance before any Fall of their Kind or Rebellion...
Its symbol of the Original would be Elders and Ancient Engineer Culture prior to the LV-223 Engineer days...
David has arrived at their home world... maybe all he finds is the remnants of a long gone culture, maybe he finds a few survivors or unlikely he finds hundreds of them...
I think he finds a ancient derelict culture, but from this he can gain clues from their Hieroglyphs and other means he can learn what the causes of their downfall was..
NOW... David is alone.. he has the Knowledge and Tools that made these beings GODS...
Regardless of this theory.. or if he wiped them out when he arrived... THE CLOAK IS A SYMBOL...
That David is now the God.... and Superior being.
Lord Tyrannos/I Meme Everything
Dec-26-2016 5:04 PM
If your theory is correct, it will be interesting seeing how it plays out
Dec-26-2016 5:12 PM
"The Engineers in there death throes look up at the Juggernaut dissembling death, which David later lands"
Im not so sure about this Michelle, you was right as far as this looking like a Pompeii like disaster where they are petrified as stone look.
I was drawn to more of a Sodom and Gomorrah kind of Massacre.
The Trailer gives clues to the fate of the Juggernaught if we assume thats what we see.... the later shot of the internals looks like the Juggernaught. The shape is more the C shape of a Juggernaught than the U of the Derelict but it looks more like the Juggernaught in the Prometheus Trailers and not movie.
If the Juggernaught delivered death to the Engineers, we have to ask why and how did it crash... as the AC Trailer shows the ship did not land, not as far as a smooth landing goes.
Why would David set it down in a Forrest unless forced to do so?
This is a big question... this is no straight forwards landing, that the ship surely can make as it can make a vertical smooth take off.
Dec-26-2016 6:00 PM
Why couldn't David manipulate/control his dismembered body to cause harm to Shaw while in flight/hyper-sleep and thus the crash landing? I mean he is a robot after all, still able to talk while decapitated.
Dec-26-2016 6:17 PM
You have nothing to compare this characters size to... this could easily be an engineer.
David was doing everything in Prometheus because Peter told him to... simple as that. That said... I don't believe he is accurately described as maniacal in the final cut of Prometheus. In Jon Spaihts script, David was a major douche canoe...Read it....its great!
Anyhow... I'm gonna continue to believe this is an engineer until I see otherwise. Either way I cannot wait to see this movie!
Dec-26-2016 6:17 PM
As far as the weapon that David has (we can assume its David?) maybe not?
But it looks Man made and its either a Grenade Launcher, a Shot Gun Type Weapon or Flair Gun.
The scene is darker in the background and it would appear its after the Drop Ship Explosion....
But the Trailers are edited in a way its hard to figure what the hell is going on.... (i fear a lot of people are gonna complain about more stupid crew here than Prometheus).
The Drop Ship has 8 People who depart, so we can see.
From front going right to left
1st Fassbender (Walter)
2nd Alexander England (Character unknown)
3rd Uli Latukefu (Character unknown)
4th Nathaniel Dean
5th Carmen Ejogo
6th Katherine Waterston (Daniels)
7th + 8th hard to make out...
7th looks male, and Benjamin Rigby definaetly goes down as he is the infected one via ear infection. We dont see him with hat up close though.
But also Demián Bichir is wearing a darker coat too but a dark hat so that rules him out as number 7
I think Number 8 is also not Demián Bichir as number 8 has light jacket
Amy Seimetz is in Pilot gear and she is Piloting the Drop ship with Billy Crudup and so its a case of who else has gone down and so either of these two could be number 8..
This scene its not so dark... the next shot when they are walking across the woodland towards the Juggernaught its a bit darker..
The scene where they are running back to the exploding Dropship is similar darkness as when they was walking to the Juggernaught.
The David shot, its darker, but this could be caused by lighting from the Blast.
The thing is like with Prometheus trailer, its cut maybe in a way that we cant really be sure which order each shot is from.
But if we look logically at it... the ship is blown up by Amy Seimetz
Character as she tries to shoot at the Neomorph (if this is the correct term), we have to assume we are not going to be show a super fast growth like instant... and so i would assume that Benjamin Rigby feels unwell and returns to the ship with Ejogo and Seimetz to be inspected.... while they are doing this... the rest are off to the Woods.
Dec-26-2016 6:26 PM
"I mean he is a robot after all, still able to talk while decapitated."
Well this would imply that he is in two halves, and so we then have to assume Shaw would know what he was doing, and refuse to rebuild him.. or if she died.. well again can David rebuild himself?
Maybe you mean his head and body are placed close by but not attached. but i think we can assume David is re-connected before they even leave LV-223
"You have nothing to compare this characters size to... this could easily be an engineer."
It is 100% not a Engineer, they have grey ish clothing underneath...
Also the grass height is the same as on the other crew... But it could be Walter....
The Scenes are shown in maybe wrong order, as the one shot with Walter and Daniels, Walter has the same type of top on as the David/Walter that is in the Egg Room.... but Walter is wearing a different more collared shirt on departure to the surface.
Dec-26-2016 7:32 PM
I just blew this up and it is either David or Walter watching the Captain get facehugged? Notice the dark hair? Now I'm confused. Maybe David's hair isn't blond anymore?
Dec-26-2016 7:44 PM
It's David or Walter, Def not an engineer. I believe it's David. Chris' analysis is dead on guys.
Dec-26-2016 8:10 PM
@marredwow, except the official plot synopsis made a point of acknowledging that David was the sole inhabitant of the planet they land on. Also the leaked set photos confirm any Engineers who were alive on that planet are not anymore.
@Hawley Griffin, you beat me to that! Haha the dying of his hair occurred to me after seeing the trailer and that clip of him watching Crudup get Facehugged. His hair is definitely dark brown like Walter's. I will be covering this in one of my next analysis posts.
Dec-26-2016 8:14 PM
How would David change his hair color back to dark brown? He is an android, not a cybernetic Skynet robot that has tissue that can heal and blood. Being the David dyed his hair to blonde, he would not have real hair that grows.
Dec-26-2016 8:39 PM
Hence my confusion. According to previous interviews Walter is more in line with aiding and taking care of the Colonists. But in the facehugger scene picture, the "Android" is more watching the Captain than he is the egg. I would think that an Android watching after the welfare of the crew would have told him to get away from the egg. But his hair is dark? Did David switch faces and or or hair with Walter? I agree, he's a synthetic so his hair has to be artificial in nature.
Dec-27-2016 1:56 AM
David also has to 'eat' to nourish the more 'organic' parts of himself so it's plausible his hair grows hence why it could go back to brown.
I always thought it odd that they showed that (hair dying scene) in Prom but perhaps it was a more subtle highlight (pardon the pun) of what's to come.
It also gives us some character insight i.e. this is a robot that chooses it's own appearance based on it's personal likes . . .
Dec-27-2016 2:12 AM
The more I look into these stills, and compare them to Prometheus, there are interesting analogies. David has realised that there two factions of engineers. Ones who do go to a planet and sacrifice themselves and create life, and there are those who go to a planet and kill everything, destroy all life on it, with the black substance. Now, there is a reason Ridley put Walter in the Covenant. It seems God created two different kinds of engineers, but so did Weyland (who thinks he is a god). All the engineers look alike, just like David and Walter. It looks like the engineers are all biological androids, they serve one master, David and Walter also serve one master and all come from the same mind who created them. Some engineers seed life, some destroy it (maybe all fractions of engineers do have a purpose, they all do what they are suppose to do, remember sometimes to create one must first destroy, its all connected)
These movies have biblical meaning, (heck even tha trailer has arrived on christmas eve) but I believe Ridley must stay subtle, cause he has to make two more movies after this, it would ruin the profit :)
The Bible says there was mutiny in Paradise, a war if you want it that way and maybe what we perceive to be the bad guys are not bad guys in the eye of the supreme being? Remember that they almost chose the Jesus story line? Romans killed him and because of that the engineers were sent on their way to earth to vipe out humanity, now what fraction of engineers is sent to do that? The black, tall suit dudes with ampules of death of course. So the truth is, the black suit fraction is the bad one in our eyes, but in the eyes of their master they are doing their job. I reckon what Ridley wants to put out there is, we were created, we failed the test in the eye of our true creator, so he chose to destroy us, like in the bible states about those who did transgress the law. This I think is the whole idea of these movies, mutiny against the creator, because we all want more life, we are all in sense Weyland, because we all want to live forever right? ;) the theme from Miltons "Paradise lost" says it all ;-) This is also present in Bladerunner...And so we come to David, because of his honest curiosity and will to find out his real purpose, he is the prometheus, he is lucifer from Paradise lost in a sense, maybe he will turn out to be the good guy, I sort of think he will conclude this all saga about life and death. I believe he will destroy everything about these supreme species, and create a new law of creation and destruction...it all hints to that.
Dec-27-2016 2:26 AM
i really hope the script is not steered this way. the bible like other religious texts has some interest as a historical remnant. that is all. if there is some kind of 'jeebus' message behind all this then it is a failed project. i thought this was hard scifi not the rantings of some piss smelling old man, whether jew, gentile or muslim.
Dec-27-2016 2:40 AM
Hi Hope you enjoyed christmas and have a good New Year.
I did not expect to contribute until next May but there are some obvious things to avoid and somethings which are conjecture. The really important elements is how the mythos is deepened and which characters go on journeys and we have not a clue about either. We have a great trailer which places the movie where we know they wanted to take it for the mass audience. Thats worked so well I have even seen people bemoaning the lack of all about everything Prometheus type conjecture which is a little ironic!
It doesn't make dramatic sense for both of them to have an arc with redemption. For a large scale movie with two characters played by the same actor one needs to remain constant and simply become clearer in our minds the other can "move". To pile all the expectation on Walter and simply make David a lost waif and stray makes no sense to me. Both of them can surprise but one by being un David like and the other by going through an Arc. Indeed one has up to date protocols and is not Weyland's son the other has been a lost canon for ten years, self employed as I described it in the summer.
Chris connected the cloak to sacrifice which fits with the Valhalla legends and the playing of the Entry of the Gods to Weyland. What kind of sacrifice, a life cycle offering of his "new condition" or a simple redemptive sacrifice to save Daniels and or the Space Jockey redemption. This takes us to the million dollar question where to next. The Fox explanation has dropped numbers and talks about the next entry in the franchise and we have a book sequel. On the whole I do not want to get this right before the film but let the film provide the answer. But if Sigourney's fork in the road is next an AC follow up is years away why not close out the narrative of the S J now ?
The Destruction of the Engineers
If David is responsible that ties the two types of Engineers up and suggests their is a hierarchy (Annunaki) who use this "superior species" for their purposes Paradise being the promised land. It drives out the Paradise Lost of Paradise and makes LV 223 the fall but Paradise has been lost and as Ridley said last year 'thats as far as it goes". What intrigues me is the inert bodies are missing from the foot of the Temple and simply charred impressions left. That suggests within the story telling there are two stages, the leaked set fully dressed and the charred impressions.That feels less coming amongst Pompeii and more action/coverup, we shall see.
There is lots of chatter about fresh horrors and the neat thing is that fits in with the prequel status the evolving creature. The Black Goo is a mutagen and therefore it mutates and if it behaves akin but slightly different in a benign atmosphere that makes sense for the story. It also tells us what would have happened if they had made it to earth. The perfect morality tale re ordering does not create order and improvement it creates chaos and mayhem and distortions.
On the whole having not seen the trailer just these stills of David I think Ridley is bang on millions of hits a clear message and not a clue as to the outcome of the big story or the big arcs.
Dec-27-2016 2:51 AM
If you check back through threads earlier this year you will see this site is alive with minds, like yours, who remain agnostic in the delivery of ideas but see applicability with ancient mythical traditions.
From the get go Ridley has aimed to take the lifecycle and give it a mythical context which is both thought provoking and highly entertaining. If you are looking for a gratuitous thoughtless empty take on rape, dominance and punishment you have come to the wrong address. I did not find your description of Ridley enlightening or supportive of Chris's intent that in talking about the subject we stay classy. You can call it pseudo intellectual drivel and offer direct and robust views but we can do without highly personal insults.
Dec-27-2016 3:59 AM
Well the thing about David is we assume he is 10 years self employed, and all the time in Prometheus we can clearly see he always had an agenda of his own, while Weyland was still alive. Now, this is a subtle idea, when Weyland died, (davids creator, his master, god if you like) david regain freedom? Nietzsche "God is dead","ecce homo"? Didnt David said all children want to see their parents dead? Its interesting because Shaw said "No", and when you look at the Jesus scenario we actually did that, humans killed Jesus, and Christians do believe he was god in the flesh. So, the Bible theme is more than self evident. Weyland told the crew of Prometheus, David has no soul, in translation he is not worthy of a human, so David questions himself what is that, soul? Why are humans better than him? Are they? So he asks Holloway why did humans create him, Holloway says "because we could", and David immediately responds, how humans would accept the fact that the engineers created them because "they could"...
David knows he is superior to humans, but his creator told him he is not worthy, it does resemble the old tale about lucifer, the light bearer, he thinks he is superior but his creator punished him, so he rebelled and is trying to replace him.
The black goo like I said is part of the whole creation concept, big things have small beginnings, first destroy then create, there is coherence between all these sayings. Its doesnt necessary lead to chaos, it leads rather to order out of chaos.
Just like at the beginning of Prometheus, the sacrifice engineer, held a cup with a tree symbol carved in it, the tree of life perhaps? Its actually awesome how Ridley put all these clues just when you look at Prometheus, Kubrick would be proud ;-)
There are of course many ways how this saga will end, but there are clear evidence in the storyline, Ridley even confessed it in many interviews, and in one interview, the guy who interviewed him said "Prometheus gives me a biblical feeling", which Ridley replied "then I have done my job".
Dec-27-2016 4:04 AM
some clarification needed. i am here for the hard scifi, the meditations on the future, how it changes us, or perhaps makes us more as we truly are.
i am not interested in a "gratuitous thoughtless empty take on rape, dominance and punishment". i find the idea repugnant. to use spiritual terms the original sin imho is the imposition of one's will or desires against another. dominance, no thanks.
leading to the second point, it seems i should have made that clearer, and no insults intended to Mr Scott. Rather they were directed to the patriarchy of various denominations who seek to control others with their Abrahamic mythologies. Looking around us at the way the world is, it can be seen these narratives are still harmful. the catholic church, neo con christians in the USA, Daesh (ISIS) and many more. they are redundant notions for a species who are born into freedom. before indoctrination.
Dec-27-2016 4:23 AM
and as a postscript, my reading of the available data from the films so far is that in contemplating themes of creation and destruction, origins and purpose, there are no definitive answers. there is no one meaning. creation myths are just that. attempts to provide meaning where there is none. the attempts of primitives in caves seeking to understand why the sky throws lightning at them. religious thought is barely developed from that. sin, punishment and penance. all attempts at control.
in the context of the films, in Prometheus, it is Dr Shaw realising her faith is misplaced. a projection of her own worldview onto an alien and indifferent universe. It is the crew of the Nostromo in Alien encountering an organism that does not care for their humanity, their views or beliefs.
And now perhaps a synthetic human, David has developed his own personal mythology of creation. A flawed creation himself. Just like his manufacturers. The curse of self awareness, the search for meaning. Atrocities committed in the name of godhead.
Another reading of the alien organism in its many forms can be taken from the synthetic Ash. 'the perfect organism'. unrestricted by beliefs or morality. it just is. its function is horrific to human eyes, but it is honest.
Dec-27-2016 4:48 AM
One thing I didn't see mentioned that deserves consideration. The cloak is a trophy. David is flaunting some triumph over the engineers. "I'm still here and you aren't." He is impervious to the black goo, and whether he unleashed it on the remaining engineers or just discovered that is what killed them, he is victorious. What killed them could never kill him directly.
It is also important to note that the two different types of engineers were at war with one another. There are several clues and bits of media that confirm that. That doesn't clear up which was "good" and which was "bad" it just shows that they weren't working together.
Also, engineers have blue/grey skin. The carnage on the temple steps was ongoing, not a mummification. Those engineers had been Fifielded and were actively killing each other in that shot. The only question is did it happen long before the arrival of Shaw and David, or shortly after...
Dec-27-2016 5:54 AM
My premise is that two fractions always existed, one for creation, one for destruction. And yes there was a mutiny as it seems. In the beginning all engineers were the same to their creator. They were all good in sense of their purpose, and all were necessary for their master, but some fraction thought they deserve something else, they could do something better, and that is the whole point. The fraction we think is "bad", is the fraction that is sent out to wipe everything the "good one" created. Now, problem is, these bad guys, in this scenario are actually the ones God sent to destroy us. So humans should stay on the side of those engineers who created us, the engineers at the beginning of Prometheus, but they are the ones who are opposing God as is it seems.
Remeber "the trick is not minding that it hurts"? Exactly what Weyland told David, the trick is not minding that it hurts, although you are superior. And that also is exactly what God did to some engineers, and some engineers couldnt stand anymore something they witnessed in paradise, so the mutiny began, just like it states in Bible and Paradise lost, which the sequel of Prometheus was first named.
Funny thing is Prometheus as a myth represents the sacrifice, the love for humanity in the same way we could observe at beginning of the Prometheus the movie. Prometheus was sentenced and cast out for the gift he gave to humanity, like Weyland states in the promo for Prometheus. Kind a makes you feel sympathy for the devil, because it all hints the fallen angels arent really bad, and we need to be enlightened in a sort of way.
Read Milton Paradise Lost, it all makes sense.
Dec-27-2016 6:44 AM
It is absolutely clear that David is not inventing anything But using prior knowledge of the engineers.He must have found their formulas in the spaceship. The stupid thing is thinking like engineers superior race can worship stupid beast as xenomorfh.And another interesting question: Is the engineers are top hierarchy or they themselves working for someone? If so, for whom?
Dec-27-2016 6:47 AM
@Morpheusss Very interesting!
Dec-27-2016 6:53 AM
Dec-27-2016 6:54 AM
You always assume that the engineers has creator , it is not clear at all.
Dec-27-2016 7:40 AM
Are you retarded? It's Scott's story. He is the original director. He can make the story whatever he wants it to be. It's not real. It's a story. Lol I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read your dumbass comments.
Dec-27-2016 8:01 AM
understand something fag:
Before the film was the book and is absolutely clear that aliens are a race and not a biological weapon. Anything else u licking cocks: Ridley Scott is trying to distort even the first film in that it claims that David created the aliens For the simple reason that they were already exist in the spacecraft's first film it's very old. Understanding that u stink Hispanic shit or is it difficult for you
Dec-27-2016 8:16 AM
@deez nuts @ido lam
Please lower the tension in these forum discussions, your insults are not necessary.
Dec-27-2016 8:17 AM
One thing also pops up in my mind, and I have certain doubts about it,
What we saw at the beginning of Prometheus, the sacrifice and everything with the Elders all wearing cloaks, has actually taken place on Earth, and maybe a clue was being given by Shaw, when she said about the engineers DNA, "its us, its everything", so the reason blacksuit ones that the creator sent to destroy us, want to destroy us is because we all are descendants of those fallen angels which are at war with the divine power.
Maybe that is one of the reasons Ridley rejected the Jesus scenario, because he wanted it to be of epical, gigantical proportions kind of a tale. From the beginning we were on earth as the last resort, our ancestors actually fled from paradise, we werent cast out in this sense, we were forced to flee and so Earth is our dwelling point for now.
Thats why Ridley stated in one interview, "what if Paradise isnt such a good place at all?"...
Take care guys
Dec-27-2016 8:19 AM
Interesting ideas! I never thought of David's cloak to be a trophy, maybe explains the scenes with dying engineers?
David the Conqueror hahahah!
Dec-27-2016 8:28 AM
It is clear that there is no heaven and no Creator!Ridley completely atheist, I'm not sure that engineers have over them a superior race. i am Sure there in no heven and allso that in alien convenat we dont see the engeenrs home planet
Dec-27-2016 8:42 AM
Your reading of David in Prometheus is shared. Ridley describes him as becoming poison to the narrative. Not poisoning the narrative artistically but his actions become exceptionally dangerous to all. What we are seeing is actions played out without a moral compass. He is very close to the classic sociopath. Vickers says you are going to die to her father, David knowing much facilitates Weyland's journey to the Orrery. A moral person would have debated the wisdom of waking a surviving member of a crew that was hell bent on re inventing mankind. One can argue that was not neutral robotic algorithm making choices, but a being with a point of view which emerged out of sentiment.
The big miss with Prometheus is people did not realise the centre of logical gravity was only with David. The rest of the crew were Promethean or a pay check Janek and co pilots were the hapless foot soldiers who found themselves heros with the biggest threat ever posed in these movies. The destruction of mankind and they were willed on by the delusional Elizabeth who herself found the answer but not one she was looking for.
So David offers a co dependent relationship to Shaw pure, sociopathy, but how this David can be anything other than extremely dangerous to the Covenant is difficult to see. However he may not like or realise the impact of his creative curiosity and thats where his arc may turn.
The simple point is this is a morality tale and its so origin conceived you can apply any strand of "ism" for applicability. That Elizabeth was a christian was about likely hood. A different character may have been from any of the faiths that might have produced a character who projected their needs into an outcome which was off the mark. Daniels is a terraformer so she will have a more dispassionate view for the "chosen" intergalactic gardeners. Amongst all that history her response will be fascinating. Causes effects whats this mean. It means you have to put on your Ripley flack jacket and get the .... out of here.
Thats great to hear and thanks for the clarification. The image of old men of religion is one I have seen played out in both the "Crown" and a fabulous remaster of "Lion In Winter" recently so your observations when clear chime with mine.
I am sure we agree Ridley is not attempting allegory but applicability. To give his vision a grounded feel he is borrowing from a range of sources to answer a simple question. What might creationism look like without morality. So if we are encouraged to think of christmas day/the miraculous birth/a fall/punishment/creator-created and incautious sub creation because they are part of reality it makes the story like the fabric of the movie feel authentic. However like you I can see if people start over laying allegorical religious significance as opposed to philosophical applicability then it becomes a matter of agendas rather than enquiry. If you type Engineers on Mu/th/ur you get 620 CE the year Mohammed was flown to Paradise. Is this like the 2000 year old mission to Earth caught up in another unique personality that has dominated thinking for the last two centuries. if it is I am sure Covenant is not an allegory of Islam but I am sure that the tale is intended to say that breaking Covenants can have terrible retribution which is part of the message of the Holy Book. Little echos refractions which set you thinking rather than defining an allegorical agenda.
Dec-27-2016 8:47 AM
I see you are new here.
If I were you I wouldn't use that language for conversations because we have forums rules If you haven't read them.
Dec-27-2016 9:03 AM
Dark Nebula Sack of shit got what he deserved
Dec-27-2016 9:14 AM
I will be honest I have always looked at the retribution witnessed in the leaked set was the heirarchy's retribution. However there is no evidence of their rebellion. I have speculated it is a refusal to succumb to the role they were ordained to pursue. That the LV 223 Engineers are merely as Janek said their brothers keeping the .... at a safe distance.
Going on further we know the experiments ended in two things Xenomophic outcomes and disaster. They can hardly be described as feeling like ordained outcomes.
Those latter thoughts can be crystallised and said to be the truth and then move to a different outcome for Paradise. A place the Igigi (Einherjar) were brought to for sacrifice. The intervention is then David who bringing the fruits of the Engineers labour turns it on them. What intrigues me is the reaction of the hierarchy and how do you introduce the next layer to the story.
The intermediate ending out of this David becomes entwined with the evolving creature is clear but if the disaster is the result of David where is the retribution and loss of Paradise and the Poems influence - in this instance it would be limited and what Covenants would the David responsible narrative see broken.
"there is so much we do not know"
Dec-27-2016 9:21 AM
I tried to make a concept of what you are trying to communicate and few things have sense whatsoever.
The whole point of these movies is the quest for our creators, and it is all well explained by Ridley in his interviews and now you tell me all the stuff put in this movie and all the extreme analogies with religion dogmas is all likely hood? I mean Ridley spent an entire year explaining the allegory of these movies through various interviews, he mentioned Paradise Lost and the bible like every time they questioned him about the movie. Heck even the Covenant is a biblical term. I agree we can talk about applicability, but the movie Prometheus and I assume this one Alien Covenant are a heading to expalin what really happened in our universe and how do we as humans fit in this epical story of existence, and how do the alien beings xenos fit in all of this.
Now, the logical gravity of David, is extremely important because he survived all events in Prometheus, and I am of the opinion he will be of crucial importance to end this saga. Why is David a sociopath? Is he really that bad? Didnt Holloway say when David asked him what would you do to find the answers you came here all this way for, "anything and everything"? Didnt Weyland say "try harder"? You see we humans arent so much better, because what David did, we do to our own race on a regular basis. He was honestly curious about life and wanted knowledge. In that sense he is the Prometheus. I believe that in the Alien Covenant and in the movie after, he will be much more of importance then we think.
Dec-27-2016 1:37 PM
To be honest I do not understand what you are trying to say. My point starts with me dealing with the question posed by Chris. What is the significance of David8 wearing a cloak.
1) He is no longer a quasi human he is a quasi Engineer.
2) To take their appearance is highly symbolic and suggests he perceives himself as having replaced them.
3) We have seen a still of the entrance to the temple with the mummified bodies removed and simply ash shadows suggesting a burning. That suggests there are two stages to their presentation.
A) The effect of something on whole Engineers where they are all squirming in agony which could be the effect of A03959x.91
B) A burning of the remains to remove the evidence remove the contagion.
This makes the likely hood of David being responsible for the disaster that much greater. Rather than coming upon an "ancient Pompeii" of mummified creatures there are two stages within the film.
My point then is if the Engineers on Paradise disaster is caused by David and not a hierarchy there is no judgement no intervention no moral relativism no specific application of Paradise Lost.
I am well aware what the big themes are and I have a good knowledge as anybody as to what Ridley has said since the Alien Prefix was added. I championed the concept of moral relativism here many months ago. But if David is responsible for the death of the Engineers then some of that narrative is lost or the fall of the Engineers resides with LV 223 if the Engineers of Paradise are mere victims of David playing god.
David8 has no moral compass. He operates without remorse to achieve his objectives though there is growing evidence in Prometheus he is driven by negative sentiment. However that he acts with out remorse to achieve his objective makes him in human terms a sociopath thats precisely what a sociopath does. He knew the Engineer was on a mission to destroy earth and yet he facilitated Weyland meeting him. If he had a moral compass he would have cautioned him not to just as his real unloved daughter did.
I hope that is clear.
And Finally I am not certain that the Engineers of Paradise were mere victims of David I am simply suggesting the evidence available suggests the likely hood has increased with consequent effects on how you shape the various elements of the big story. it is possible that interaction between David and Walter who may have different viewpoints on humanity explain why David is doing what he is doing and what he came to. There is another rather simple point to make David was rejected by the Engineer on LV 223 and may have informed his subsequent actions.
Dec-27-2016 1:49 PM
142 days until the bughunt 8)
Dec-27-2016 7:31 PM
I wonder if this is foreshadowing David's role to us as the engineer's roles to us. The theme of created pitted against creator. David remarks that doesn't everyone want their parents dead? I wonder if the space jockey we see in Alien is NOT the engineer race we see in Prometheus. The space jockeys created the engineers, the engineers created us, we created David. In addition, each of these want to "kill" the other (Not that I agree with this, however I think the theme is leading this way). The engineers make the xenomorph to create life (mimicking their space jockey creators) but also weaponize it to destroy them (ancient engineers killed the space jockey thousands of years ago in the one on LV426), we create David who now wants to kill us and also create his own creation. It is a theme of death and creation that goes along with the hints from earlier movies.
Dec-27-2016 8:47 PM
"What we saw at the beginning of Prometheus, the sacrifice and everything with the Elders all wearing cloaks, has actually taken place on Earth"
It hints to that, but Ridley said it does not have to be Earth, its just how these Engineers create life... the process of Mankind is one of constant re-visits and upgrades. They could now even have the Sacrificial Scene as not being Earth.. it could be Paradise but then Mankind are kicked out of Paradise and end up on Earth.... this would fit with in part the Paradise Lost connections... which i think will still be there loosely..
"A place the Igigi (Einherjar) were brought to for sacrifice. The intervention is then David who bringing the fruits of the Engineers labour turns it on them"
Indeed Michelle as we have discussed many times, there are/was many links to Ancient Cultures there is a great deal of connective tissue and themes... that are going to be or were going to be touched upon... only maybe loosely...
The Igigi connection was on i also had discussed a number of times... if there role was replaced from being used to Toil for Gold for their Gods.... but something else... or used for some purpose other than Gold..... a sinister twist on this would be that the Engineers are the Igigi and they created Mankind to replace them and bare their Toil.. what ever in context to Prometheus that is.... this action was against their creators wishes...
Or there creators created Mankind to replace the Engineers, but the Engineers then overthrown their creators and saved some of Mankind and took us to Earth to then release us from the same Toils... they was free, they made us free and as reward for this they tried to get us to serve them as gods... but this did not settle well with their Hierarchy.
I think one of those two twists on the Annunaki/Igigi tale are at play here.
The Source seemed to point to similar...
i was not upto scratch with Norse Mythology until a message off you Michelle, which then when i looked into many of those Fables.. to me the Sources information started to fit into place..
But alas.... who knows now.. as re-writes had happened in Summer 2015.... this is assuming the Source was correct... in the first place.
i can only thank you for the many debates, and thought provoking ideas you have.
"My point then is if the Engineers on Paradise disaster is caused by David and not a hierarchy there is no judgement no intervention no moral relativism no specific application of Paradise Lost"
Very good points..... there had to have been some kind of connection... non-literally as to how the Paradise Lost and Fallen Angel connections Ridley had teased at fits in place.
Right now a lot seem to think David did the disaster... the one leak that most on AVPGalaxy think is legit is based around this... described Mummified Engineers.
The Trailer and Stills actually go against that supposed leak on many levels...
These Mummified Corpses have been shot, they are props and not Actors (as you Michelle said they was.. but first leaked photos we could not tell) 2nd ones 100% confirmed it and Female Engineers for sure...
But there are latter shots where these bodies are not there at the time the Covenant Crew Arrive.... they could indeed have been attacked by the Goo and broken down to nothing but dust (building blocks for new life) or mutated and moved away from that place....
if this event is by David... it seems a shame to off screen kill the Engineers off with no answers.... But also if this is David dropping Hell on them... we have to ask how did he then crash the Juggernaught?
At the moment its still pretty open for debate when this disaster scene took place... indeed they are keeping a lot back.
Dec-27-2016 9:00 PM
Certainly a lot of that could be at play....
I will RE-CAP... my interpretation of the Cloak..
But some of you have come to the same conclusion..
The Cloak is connected to the Sacrificial Scene, this is maybe no Accident...... and while it helps to hide TWO different Fassbender roles... (Blonde vs Brown) to make shooting scenes easier.
I think it plays a role connected to the Sacrificial Engineer Scene.... but this is not David making a Sacrifice... as the Elders wore the Same Clothing...
The Engineers in the Scene of Disaster seem to had been wearing like this..
The Statue in that scene that has fallen over and has no head is wearing the same... (another clue to maybe the Goo not being dropped as how can it knock over a statue?).
The Sacrificial Engineer Scene they wore the Cloaks..
The Sacrificial Scene hinted at these beings being Millions and Millions of years old... Predate the LV-223 Engineers.
These were for all intensive purposes the Ancient Gods..
But Ridley felt disappointed in them and maybe revamp of them.. he said in regards to removing of the Elders (he did not wish to meet God in the first movie) This does not mean the Elders are God as far as a Hierarchy like God/Angels or Titans/Olympians etc... it could be like the Egyptian Pharaohs
The Cloaks symbolize these Ancient Hierarchy of beings, its linked to a great purpose of high importance just as in Churches a Cardinal would wear specific attire..
The Cloak represents a Important Order of Engineers or related beings.. these were the Guys who had the Gift and Tools and Permission to use the Sacrificial Goo to Create Life via Sacrificial Process.
The symbolism of David having this Cloak is that.... those beings are Long Gone.... Mankinds path of creation Gone...
David is superior to Mankind, the Gods are Mortal after All, and all that made them Gods was their Knowledge and Tools... David now possesses this..
And as Weylands TED Talk showed...... "we are the Gods now"
This is what David know realizes that he is.... and so the Cloak is to symbolize that David is now GOD.
Dec-27-2016 9:14 PM
Another thing i have noticed...
Ridley has messed up the Scale again.... 26ft Space Jockey is actually a 13-15ft one... so Spaights draft and Lindeloffs gave us 12-15ft Engineers... which was revised to give us 10ft ones... who actually ended up being 7.5ft tall.
Alien Covenant has used Human Sized Props for these beings who are Bald like Engineers, who have Engineer Hieroglyphs and so are connected.... and have Females....
Stupid mistake if they plan to have Covenant crew or David interact and walk around these Mummified remains.... but then the Tree Trunks where massive to scale... to create a illusion of Land of the Giants for our Humans... so we can grasp the size of these Engineers.....
Which must mean the Temple Scene is a Flash back?
Well latest shot does show no bodies remain and so its a pre-history event... either 10 years prior.. or thousands..
Ridley Scot Scale mess up....... the shot of Daniels and someone else in front of the Temple... seems by Scale to show those Engineer beings are not 10ft or taller... not even maybe 7ft...
But more Human in size...... WOW Ridley Scot Scale Mess up again? Or is there more to it..
Nice how the cloaks of a 10ft never mind 15ft Race fit a 6ft David 8?
The Elder Engineers and Sacrificial are Human in size... they predate us....
The LV-223 Engineers are either a creation by them much like David 8 is to Mankind... only they are Organic Cloned Terminator Robots rather than Synthetics... this could be why the Engineer had pitty for David... before tearing his head off.
Or those LV-223 Engineers are the result of Genesis 6:4
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to"
Or maybe the LV-223 Engineers are above the Sacrificial ones... or some other Race... and the Sacrificial Engineers were led to sin for the lust of Females.. so they was punished and Females destroyed (Paradise Disaster Scene)
Which is why the Sacrificial Engineers had to go around another way of creating? Then this would but the Temples at Millions of years old.... which they remain in good shape for that.
The Space Jockey could play the Role of Hierarchy, or they could be the result of Genesis 6:4 I think there is potential to have 3 Races here... Sacrificial Scene Engineers/Paradise ones of Human Height..... LV-223 ones of 8-10ft Height and Space Jockey ones of 12-15ft Height..
its a case of where in the Order of Hierarchy does each fit?
Dec-27-2016 11:50 PM
@ido Iam, Final warning man. Dark Nebula is a moderator for these boards and asked you to tone it down and review our rules. I suggest you do so. You are welcome to converse about this film like everyone else, but personal insults and attacks will not be tolerated. This isn't a YouTube comments section, here we value respect and decency. Please abide by our rules from here on out.
@morpheus, I really dig your responses. I'm totally on your level with this. I like your mention of the Engineers being the good guys just doing their jobs. You've made some legitimate arguments to support these theories, I'm with you!
Dec-28-2016 2:07 AM
Just some general points at all those pushing this debate on.
Allegory- An allegory is the description of a subject in the guise of another subject.
This is how I understand allegory, there have been lots of elements of Star Trek where they are really telling another tale within a science fiction environment. "Undiscovered Country" was playing out Chernoybl and the fall of the Soviet Union and Perestroika through the Klingon arc. I do not think Ridley is that literal I think mythos ideas inspire him and end up in the blender and everyone then blue skies and out comes something at the other end, so for me, to say its the Bible its the Poem is to narrow its everything being brought into play.
@Chris There is great audacity in your ideas that the Engineers are putting right a wrong by attempting to destroy us. I think its part of your view that the A L I E N is part of the plan. I may have said this before but if the idea in the franchise was to destroy us because we broke our Covenant with God it hasn't happened !
This is precisely where I am. Ridley has placed before us a creation myth of intergalactic gardeners. There is a hierarchy the creators/engineers/mankind and we have added in A. I.
What I think these stories are about is moving away/fiddling with the ordained hierarchy through rebellion partly through the Promethean Myth and in particular the breaking of Covenants and at several levels. David is on the move against his creators and has leapfrogged mankind. The Engineers stole the fire and perished on LV 223 and at the very least let the cat out of the bag for David to scope up.
Once we know how the A L I E N came about, and big dave knows I think the answers in the worm to the hammerpede, which will be echoed over and over in several ways on Paradise (simple organisms are transformed and taken into the Xeno narrative) then we have a little more idea of the nature of the mythos created and where the authority lies. For me the teardrop ship set in motion life giving ordained outcomes whereas the message of LV 223 is self worship self idolatry and sub creationism which went badly wrong.
Dec-28-2016 4:09 PM
Indeed Michelle, and Morpheus and rest of you guys...
There seems to be a tale behind it all thats layered behind the Engineer and Xeno Plot... it will be interesting to see how loosely Fables and Mythos will connect or how deeply...
I think it would be done in vague ways mind...
Such as indeed Matrix covers a similar theme of Creators, Create a Synthetic Life Form (AI) to aid and make life of the creators easier... this AI becomes advanced and sentient and then rebels and overthrows... its creator and in-turn now enslaves them in some horrid agenda...
This movie as well as Bladerunner touched upon the Creator/Creation and Rebellion and how Freedom of Knowledge can lead to Freewill and downfall for the creator and they touch upon a number of Biblical and other Mythos themes...
Which even the Tale behind "he Rihne Gold - Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla" Also has similar themes... Maybe the Rihne Gold... the Forbiden Fruit, Prometheus Fire and Engineers Secret to Creation (Goo) are all loosely connected.
Dec-28-2016 10:50 PM
The cloaks were also supposed to be worn by the prometheus engineer but was cut.
i tried uploading the photo but it says that type of file now allowed.
Dec-30-2016 12:41 AM
I think the Pompeii scenes are flash back scenes.
Shaw learned to fly the Juggernaut from David and left Paradise with David on it and went on to search for the creators to get her answers.
Apart from flash backs I do not think we will be seeing anymore engineers in this film.
It's all going to be about David and the "aliens".
Dec-30-2016 2:15 AM
I agree completely. Good theory. David could be one of the gods now so to speak.
Dec-30-2016 3:42 AM
For me the teardrop ship set in motion life giving ordained outcomes whereas the message of LV 223 is self worship self idolatry and sub creationism which went badly wrong.'
I think that's a pretty good summary of what we can infer about the Engineers MJ.
I also like an idea above that suggests there were two kinds of engineers; those that create and those that destroy (although perhaps our understanding of those two terms is somewhat skewed i.e. maybe the Engineers on LV223 were not the bad guys at all. . .)
Dec-30-2016 6:29 AM
"I also like an idea above that suggests there were two kinds of engineers; those that create and those that destroy (although perhaps our understanding of those two terms is somewhat skewed i.e. maybe the Engineers on LV223 were not the bad guys at all. . .)"
Thats a real neat summary of a view a number of people share. It makes Promethean sense in that the Good Guys stole the fire created mankind and the Bad Guys said "hold on this is out of control" lets redact it. In hierarchy terms the good guys are then the bad guys and the bad guys are on message and the good guys.
Wow that Lindelof dude has certainly lead to the wearing out of a lot of keyboards !!!
My take is actually the reverse and slightly amended the Good Guys are the inter galactic seeders and the Engineers unhappy with their role as the Igigi (Einherjar of Valhalla) rebelled and used LV 223 as a test site (Janek was right) for their sub creation and revisionism and suffered Promethean punishment for stealing the fire and whether booby trapped or simply caught by something primordial created the zeno strain which takes over its target and whilst retaining some of its base characteristics e.g. the worm turns into a predatory,over sexualised, parasitical organism whose base DNA code is to mete out punishment.
What has jolted the narrative is not only has mankind evolved but he has created another layer A I which when mixed with the knowledge of the Engineers is a whole bag of trouble.
Some day maybe only one of these theories will be right.
Dec-30-2016 10:53 PM
"I think the Pompeii scenes are flash back scenes"
i always felt it was like a Ancient Sodom and Gomorrah
Mentioned in a other thread in more detail..
As with Michelle i feel there is connections at play here...
The Igigi/Angel /Olympian role is what the Engineers may be.. its so wide a plot that it can evolve in any shape... but i think there has to be some connection...
If its more the Igigi then a Horrid Agenda could be applied... where as we are not talking Mine for Gold here....
The thing with these Mythos is they can connect and cross connect in so many ways... and narrowing it down and how it connects to us (Mankind) and the Xeno.. becomes the hard part.... no wander there was so many re-writes..
Its these connections that allow for endless ways to go, that is hard to do... its reason i abandoned my P2 draft as its one aspect i could not choose which Fork in the Road to take.
Nice that these themes are not being abandoned... i am relieved that Ridleys comments and Trailer and shots since 4chan leak seem to disprove its approach...
And so i bank on some Ancient connections and Flash Backs.. as i said when this came out "Michael Biehn" comment on Alien 5 and how Alien Covenant was set thousands of years ago.. or so thats how he was told.... i dont think he would make that up ;)
Dec-30-2016 11:01 PM
As for the Engineers... Ridley has constantly messed the scale up.... he has backed himself into a corner...
Now with AC again we get Smaller Engineers.... those Mummified Engineers have Females and they are Props (which MJ thought) i was not sure as low resolution but leaked new ones confirm they are Props... Human sized too.
Why do that? Unless the scene is not intended to interact with Human Crew or David.... which now seems it maybe does not.
But then we have the Cloak... we have the shot of Daniels and who looks like either (Rigby, or Franco from behind.. but could could be Crudup or Bichir)
Anyway the scale of the Ziggurat behind them fits with same Scale of the Disaster Scene... its either another Monumental Scale Mistake by Ridley again..
Or a Re-design....
These beings are either creators of the Engineers (Engineers there version of David) or Engineers came about via Genesis 6:4
Or these beings are earlier Generation of Mankind..
Regardless i think they are Human Sized... the Sacrificial Engineer Scene guys could now be Human Sized... Hence Scale and Hence the Cloak that fits David/Walter.
The Engineers and Space Jockey could be the result of Genesis 6:4 or other means and they started to get Mankind to Worship them as Gods..... where as the real Gods are not Giants...
Jan-31-2017 6:30 AM
Given that the set photos show engineers in a frozen kind of state, I would bet that they were killed by some type of nuclear weapon. I doubt that David dropping the black substance would knock over the statues, if in fact that's what happened.
As for Shaw, maybe David used her to create another Deacon or the Xenomorph queen. The Xenomorph could have originated with David. That's why it's bio-mechanical and not completely biological like the Deacon.
I doubt the Engineers are still alive. The group on LV-223 died as a result of sabotage. That's why the bodies are piled up at the door. Remember what Fifield said, that it looks like a scene from the holocaust? The engineer race probably died as a result of a civil war. This would explain why no other engineers visited the Earth.
It is possible that David unleashed the black substance on Paradise, but I'm not convinced of that. I think the ecosystem was changed as a result of the war between the Engineers.
The only question that lingers for me about the Engineers fighting against one another is that one single Engineer is left in cryo. Notice that the others had chest bursters come out of them. Why not the other? Was he not infected? Obviously the others were and they were in cryo, but that didn't save them.
Mar-07-2017 6:43 PM
Trevor indeed you pick upon some good points.. I had pondered the whole sabotage theory many years back and it held some weight when we look at the deleted Engineer Scenes.
The Dead Engineers to me seem like some kind of Sodom and Gomorrah type Event...
Unless Ridley has lost the plot as far as continuity... as well Black Goo on Engineers would result in either Mutations/Hybrids or it would break down their Genetic Material to nothing...
What we see goes against what the Black Goo seemed to do in Prometheus unless Engineers cant be affected by a strand of the Black Goo.... but then the Sacrificial Goo proved they can and those Dead Engineer Bodies in Prometheus seemed to be Hollow... its as if the Engineers inside those Space Jockey suits all disintegrated to nothing... apart from the Preserved head in the Big Head/Ampoule Room.