David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-04-2016 9:36 AM
Thanks for the post. It is very intriguing and will be to see David's story arc. He has been alone for 10 years and it begs the question, what has David learned and has he matured as an android...thus begging the question, does he have a soul. I also read in one post that the crew of the Covenant stumble upon the planet based on a radio transmission....possible from the ship David and Shaw used. Perhoas getting to the planet, Shaw now needed to get off it and sent a distress call out and the Covenant comes across the planet, which has been unmarked and not known.
Neomorph ChestbursterMember731 XPDec-04-2016 10:15 AM
I'll believe it when I see it, trailer can't be far away now (super exciteeed!!!)
CentauriPraetorianMember2267 XPDec-04-2016 10:46 AM
omg fox, show us the trailer already!! lol xD <3
sp_jockeyOvomorphMember23 XPDec-04-2016 11:12 AM
With the "soul" being a religious construct exclusive to humanity, by definition, I don't see what relevance it would have to David. He should not be bothered about such fantasies.
RedXeno428OvomorphMember53 XPDec-04-2016 11:13 AM
Fassbender has said that the film has the same "scope" of Prometheus, so I think that it'll be a nice hybrid of Prometheus and Alien. I'd be disappointed if it's just another Alien clone.
ChrisEngineerAdmin21255 XPDec-04-2016 11:21 AM
It could drop any day, but I'm guessing the 15th or around there is when the first one will drop. Could happen sooner though, you never know!
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-04-2016 11:35 AM
David has been alone on the planet for 10 years and with the technology of the deceased engineers. Could of he used some of their technology upon himself...to where he has evolved? Become self aware. Like that of Skynet but far more advanced. I think the Covenant doesn't find this plant by accident but are brought to it by Shaw and a signal from the derelict ship she and David were on. After all, this planet is uncharted. It can't be accidental that the Covenant would come across it by accident. As they say, there is more here than meets the eye.
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-04-2016 12:01 PM
I also wonder too if the "Black Goo" is programmable? They can use it to change the DNA and create what they desire to transform.
Come on trailer!
MonsterZeroXenomorphMember1305 XPDec-04-2016 2:12 PM
No leaked footage from Brazil?
Oh well...Come on trailer!
ChrisEngineerAdmin21255 XPDec-04-2016 2:33 PM
@David001, I suspect the Engineers hoped it could be programmable, but like us and our lack of insight to the creation of life, the Engineers lack the insight of their creators and merely tamper with the tool of the Gods like a child who found his dad's gun.
@MonsterZero, Yeah I'm surprised none leaked yet. I'm sure Fox's security are remaining very strict to ensure nothing gets out.
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-04-2016 3:23 PM
@chris I agree. They thought they could handle it but as we shall see, it destroyed their planet and lives. Will be interesting to see if David and the audience learn of the Engineer's creators.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-04-2016 3:51 PM
I think it depends on what you call a soul....
The Definition of a Soul is..
1) The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
David does not have this... but then its one thing we can not 100% prove that we Humans have.... Religiously Faith in a Soul is the internal spirit within that will either live on in a afterlife... or be reborn into something else.
2) Emotional or intellectual energy or intensity, especially as revealed in a work of art or an artistic performance
David could poses this has he becomes more emotional and his programing evolves and adapts...
3) The essence or embodiment of a specified quality.
So someone with a Good Heart, Empathy, someone who puts other persons needs before their own.. is deemed to have a Good Soul... those who are Selfish are considered to have not so good Souls..
Again this is something David could gain... i think he will go through a Emotional Roller Coaster and Evolution and at some point he may see Mankind as weak, selfish and far in-superior and he may have started to realize he is by far more advanced and gifted than any Human could be... but lacks a Spiritual Soul.
There could be a point when he does a all manner of things in his own now Free Interests.... but i think at some point he could have a Epiphany for the actions and thoughts he may have carried out and then had some regret that what he has done is wrong?
Thus he could go through a Journey to some degree as Anakin Skywalker had done... something drove him to the Dark Side... and so actions of how Humans view themselves as superior and how Androids are just Tools... and seeing how Mankind Historically has acted... could have led David to despise Mankind, and see Mankind has not being worth the Gifts they had been given.
But as Vader had that moment at the End of ROTJ.... David too could soon also realize the error of his ways.
The source did mention to me last year and i put it on here last year about how he did mention in context to David that his Character would go through Rebellion, Retribution but then Redemption.
And indeed if this Article ponders if David has a Soul in the way it seems to indicate could mean at some point David shows remorse, pity and regret for some of his actions.... a Act that would indeed maybe prove he has a SOUL
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-04-2016 3:55 PM
As you all recall in Prometheus when Weyland said he didn't have a soul and when he was called a robot, David would smirk and give that face of disappointment.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-04-2016 4:02 PM
There has been so much information and comments and changes regarding the Evolution of what was ... what do we do as far as a Sequel to Prometheus to what we have now.... and even now we get some comments that kind of maybe contradict each other a little.
so we are still not 100% sure of the Plot, but there is a Picture thats being painted... a lot of information has allowed us to paint more of a picture now... than we could when we pondered what could the first Prequel be about... for example speculation based on information and comments about Prometheus prior to the movies release...
Fans was expecting to for the most part..
1) Find out the Xenomorph Origins... where did it come from, how did it come to be, and why.
2) The Space Jockey, who are that race and what was it doing with that Cargo, what was it for, where did it come from and why did the Space Jockey have it... and also maybe some back ground into who this Race are.. and what Role they played.
We never got much clues apart from some Scientists had found clues in Ancient Cultures that lead to various Star Maps that all pointed to the same Place... and that a Mission was sent off to go to this would be Place of our Origins....
But when we get there... what is found is Horror and $&%* hits the fan... and we will see some Xeno related Shena****ns that may lead us to find out how these Bio-Weapons where created..
Sadly number 1) was over looked a bit... it was never covered in any way the majority of fans wanted...
With Alien Covenant... they are making no bones about it, that this time the clues and answers would be more clear, and we would actually this time see Xenomorphs on the rampage and hopefully how they came to be..... and a bit of clarity more on why such things was created....
So the Xeno aspect as in 1) that Fans was hoping for in Prometheus that the clues prior to release, teased at maybe getting them...... but did not deliver in anyway clear enough for the fans and No Eggs or Xeno......
Now been pretty much stated these things would happen in Alien Covenant... so we actually are told a bit more about the movie than we was with Prometheus...
Sorry for going off Topic.... but the point to this post was that we still dont have 100% concrete details on some elements...
For example.. i cant find any proof in that Portuguese Site about the Spores... and i have found nothing official as far as by Cast or Production Crew...
And so it remains... as with the Source that i had... merely something to take with a pinch of salt that has no firm basis, even though some things may add up...
No doubt as more comes out... such as trailers and in 6 months we would surely find out if any such so called leaks... and the source were in anyway correct.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-04-2016 4:04 PM
There was other times when David was maybe disappointed in comments and actions made towards him by fellow Crew.... Holloway in particular. He was constantly making Jibes at the Fact David is just a Robot.
Despite David being a Robot and even saying its fortunate he is... so that remarks by Holloway cant offend him.... you had the sense that deep down... they did effect David.
Neomorph ChestbursterMember731 XPDec-04-2016 4:24 PM
I think the goo is what creates the xeno eggs. That black stuff is certainly interesting if things clear up about it.
David was certainly interested in the black goo, I think he was ordered by Weyland (maybe Vickers if even she was aware) to examine and bring back the stuff. Why else was he so keen on obtaining an urn, and also cooling it down for the transportation back to the ship to preserve it? He knows stuff about the black stuff we don't know.
Maybe he knew that infecting Holloway would make him go hollow ;) and that intercourse with Shaw would create something interesting for Weyland Corp.
Now 10 years could mean a lot of research on the black goo, maybe he ended up purposefully or unintentionally "designing" the Xeno eggs?
I might be overthinking this a bit but since not much made sense in Prometheus anyway, you'll have to connect the dots yourself until we finally get some answers.
If I recall 100% accurately, Ridley stated in the making of Alien from 2002 that he envisioned the derelict as a cargo ship and the eggs being its "weapons". Yep, pretty sure he said something like that. That's a brilliant idea to expand upon so I hope that he sticks to it.
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-04-2016 6:49 PM
I also wonder if this incident causes Weyland Yutani to cease all David models which beings us to the Ash model we see in Alien.
Deep SpaceFacehuggerMember320 XPDec-05-2016 1:29 AM
I also read in one post that the crew of the Covenant stumble upon the planet based on a radio transmission....possible from the ship David and Shaw used.
Where was this David007 - was it an official source? I find it hard to believe that a ship hoping to colonise another world were just randomly 'space-hopping' until either luck or some random event helped them choose a suitable planet . . . I really think they need to get this bit right to give the story a good starting point.
Unless they were heading somewhere and picked the message up by 'chance' en route like in Alien? Even then, if it mirrors the Alien story too much i'd be a bit disappointed, I think.
Re. David having a soul I kind of agree with sp_jockey. Without getting all philosophical i'm not sure I agree with the idea that humans have souls. They are constructs created by us for us. Awareness and self-awareness, yes, definitely; I think we have the former and can develop the latter to various degrees, possibly even to an enlightened state of being.
I find films/stories that ham up the 'soul in a machine' a bit emotive and, dare I say, tacky. I hope they don't push this too much.
However, if they look at David becoming more self-aware and reflective, and thus possibly developing a sense of morality or compassion for living beings, then I think that could be an interesting arc to pursue. Especially if tied into technological developments from new/engineer tech.
I hope this post doesn't come across as being too pedantic, as I suppose some may argue that a soul and self-awareness are one and the same - i'd disagree, but don't want to get side tracked on that topic here :)
I'm also with you guys - can't wait for the trailer!
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-05-2016 7:05 AM
Indeed i see where your coming from, and it depends what they want to mean by a Soul and in general people think of as a Soul. I defined what the main things that are deemed towards having a Soul are and David could fit the bill for them apart from the Spiritual/Religious one..
As while we dont know what happens 100% to Mankind when we die... which was one theme Prometheus was going to try and touch upon..... for David 8 when his Life comes to a End... there is Nothing for him....
But then as he is a Synthetic and his Memories and Emotions are stored in circuits and chipsets etc...... i guess TECHNICALLY... when David dies... he can actually for certain gain after life and be immortal... as they (provided these components are not destroyed) Transfer his Data Processing Unit and Memory Components into another Android.... and bobs your uncle David is Re-Born....
So his Soul so to speak can be transferred to another existence... where as for Mankind who may or may not posses a real Soul... we cant be sure if the End is the End for us.
So in some kind of Ironic Twist..... David could be the only one with a Actual Soul as such....
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-05-2016 7:10 AM
I think what i put would certainly be a interesting thing to follow for the Franchise... if they expand on some of the Questions Ridley teased for when he made Prometheus.... regarding Gods and after life...
If Shaw in the next movie or who ever else gets to finally meet or get answers from the Top of the Hierarchy and Creation and find out that Nope..... there is nothing Special or Divine about Creation and there is No actual afterlife for us...
Maybe at the end of it all, they show us a damaged dead body of David but then they can replant his SOUL into a new body to gain information from.... it would be a big Ironic Twist... where the movie prequels started to explore a bit of Spiritual Faith Side that is then proven to be NOTHING... and ultimately that David is actually the only one with anything as far as a Soul that can live on after death.
I think this would be a very interesting move if they ever followed such a path
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-05-2016 7:25 AM
A lot depends on how much they use or follow the Viral Sites and how much they eventually as Canon show us the company new about the Engineers and Tech prior to Prometheus...
I would assume they knew little or nothing as far as how the Goo worked etc.... i am not even sure how much David could have gained prior to when they entered the Temple Mound.
But no doubts David is intelligent way more than any Human, he could logically piece clues together and we can assume he could read the Engineer Writings and would know what ever they was saying... He got to spend a bit of time down there after the crew went back...
for someone like David, they would only have to visually look at say a Page in a Book for a matter of seconds before that information is processed and stored.... so if he came to a area where there was Engineer Writing on 4 walls that equaled to say 400 words..... it would only take him merely seconds to store and process that information and so being left alone in such a place for a matter of minutes he could gain as much information as a Human would in hours.
So maybe David could interpret a lot from the Hologram scene when he activated it in the Juggernaught, it looked like he did not 100% know how to work the stuff and was a case of educated guess work... then once he saw the Ghost Engineers he could follow everything they have done and then repeat the same process..... it would be like him seeing a Piano for the first time and watching the hand movements of a Expert playing a Symphony and right away David would then be able to repeat that Symphony..... where as if David had never seen a Piano before or any reference material he surely would not be able to play a Symphony right away... but in minutes he could logically string along the keys to make Music rather than random key bashing.
Another thing is the Goo... i am not sure he would know 100% what would happen with Holloway and Shaw... he would have known the Goo was organic... and if any Engineer Writings on the Walls or Urns (which are different) if he could read those he would have a idea.... but i dont think he knew that Goo + Drink = Pregnant Shaw...
He was just trying to see the effect of the Goo on a Human, and then report back to Weyland his findings.... once Shaw was having Abdominal Pains... maybe something clicked in Davids programing then....
After the Scan... then David would then had made a lot of connections....
i think by the end of Prometheus David had gained a lot of knowledge about the Goo but i think there is more he needs to learn and i am sure his time spent on the Juggernaught and then up to 10 years on Paradise he has not spent just sitting around... he would further want to explore the Black Goo.
We dont know what David has done with his time since he left... if we assume he is put together in some way and Shaw in Cryo-sleep as thats the only way they can get to Paradise.. or even if thats what he informs Shaw about....
Once thats done... David could have gone anywhere really... back to Earth... off to LV-426... have a nose around LV-223.... anything really.
But i think he would have gone right to Paradise, because this is where these Engineers came from and so David would expect to find more answers there than in the Zeta 2 System.
Deep SpaceFacehuggerMember320 XPDec-05-2016 8:05 AM
Maybe at the end of it all, they show us a damaged dead body of David but then they can replant his SOUL into a new body to gain information from.... it would be a big Ironic Twist...
I think that would be a very interesting direction to take but not sure they will go that way, in AC at least - still, who knows!?
Just to clarify my post above, not having a soul wouldn't necessarily mean no after-life. It's more the idea that humans have 'something in them' that essentially never dies. I don't buy it. However, nothing can come from no-thing and something can't ever become no-thing; so on an esoteric level the question I would ask is where did we come from? When did our life begin? Difficult to answer and pin down - but if we could, then perhaps the questions 'what happens when we die or what is death, really' are a little easier to answer.
So, in relation to David - if he is self-aware then perhaps the same logic may apply? i.e. do you need to be organic to be truly born or truly die?
I'd love a film to tackle these ideas in a sci-fi context but not sure AC will be this vehicle. I think David maybe becoming more sensitive to other life and this then affecting his actions may be a route they take.
Who knows though - its what makes this film so anticipated because it could go in so many directions. My feeling is they will essentially be making a 'beasty' horror in space but in doing so will touch on some of the over-arching and grand ideas form Prometheus; like who, why and how the xeno, insights into the SJ/engineer race and the nature of AI and life.
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-05-2016 11:05 AM
I also think the Covenant will have a drop ship. Seems like they will get onto the planet, have to escape it and then the final act will end in the Covenant which is orbiting the planet.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-05-2016 3:52 PM
I see what you mean Deep Space about Humans not having a Literal Soul as in context of Spiritual well Eternal as many Faiths and Religions suggest.
It is the one thing that make us unique but its also something we cant prove or disprove 100%
We could just be Bio-logical Robots that can self replicate..... we dont really have a heart as far as the soul goes... the heart is just a Biological Component to Pump Blood and Oxygen to our brains... our Brains are just a Advanced Computer that sends electrical and chemical signals to our body to allow they to move and function..... our memories are just stored emotional, physical and visual encounters and experiences that are stored.
HOWEVER..... unlike David..
Humans feel Physical and Emotional Pain, i doubt David would ever have the level of Emotional Pain and Suffering a Human can from great loss, be it via death of a loved one, or suffering of a loved one or the loss of someone you was in love with..... and getting your Heart Broken.
The feelings that hurt in this way a Human, that cause a kind of Physical pain too... like Heart Break and Stress... are things that i think a Android would never truly ever experience...
And i think Deep Space maybe this is what you mean by Humans having a Soul.... and Androids not.... and if so that is 100% correct
I do think these questions as you posed in your last response are things they was going to be touching up with the Prometheus Sequels... but it now seems they are toning that down and narrowing it down to a more simple task of not trying to explore to many themes....
But who knows where the next movie after AC will go... i think they have a idea... but a lot could change depending on Fans Reception and Praises or Critics of Alien Covenant.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-05-2016 4:05 PM
Indeed David007 this is very very likely...
You see so far we dont have much of a Cast released and so while it seems small, the mission is a Colony One and maybe its not so huge.... but then there could be throw away Characters like the Prometheus Mechanics and Mercs....
I would assume the Covenant would only be a Ship of the Prometheus size or Nostromo.... and so that explosion would surely render a Ship the size of Prometheus Null and Void... it would even damage badly a larger ship....
I doubt it was just a way to destroy the Prop after working on it, because the Prop for the part of the Ship with Landing Ramp, had Pyrotechnic Poles at the side from the get go... and they are shooting in a National Park and so they would not blow up a Prop after use just as a quick way to dispose of it..
So it has to be some Scene where the Ship or a Lander/Shuttle is dispatched.
What we know is some of the Crew would arrive and explore the Landscape of Paradise.. the movie is mainly not a Space Suit movie and Paradise is a World that is Habitable like Earth.
Wayne Haag also confirmed the Crew arrive in a Ship, they land... on Paradise... Hell breaks loose and they attempt to escape and get away on a Ship....
We also know at some point that Aliens get on board a Ship and for Daniels to be running in a Space Suits being chased means either the Planets Atmosphere is Polluted at some point... the Covenant main ship has its Life Support Compromised (i think is what happens as McBride said he was being chased by Aliens to and he had a Shot Gun... well Shooting Aliens in Space would lead to Hull Breaches would it not).
so if the Lander is destroyed.. or disabled... we have to ask how come they cant right away get back to the Ship.... but then eventually they must do...
if its the Covenant then it must be disabled but then be able to have some kind of escape shuttle they use latter... but why not at first? Maybe because it only holds a few Passengers? We dont know.. would the Covenant have same flaws that the Titanic had (not enough escape rafts etc for the size of the Passengers and Crew).
Who knows.... maybe another ship comes in to rescue them... a Company one... with a hidden Agenda? they recover survivors and the Organism and hell breaks out again?
its a interesting thing to debate...
All we know for sure from Shots and Cast Comments and Production Comments is...
*The Ship Arrives at Paradise.
*The Crew somehow land (via Ship or a Drop Ship)
*Perhaps the Ship/Drop Ship is sabotaged or damaged by other means so it can not escape.
*The survivors make it off Paradise in a Ship.
*its likely that some Aliens get on-board this ship too.
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-05-2016 4:14 PM
There are some good and notable actors aside from Waterson and McBride. Also read in a interview with McBride that there were like 50 people on set,actors and he would say weekly they would dwindle as their character died. So, it seems like this ship Covenant is fully staffed. It will be intersting to see.
Neomorph ChestbursterMember731 XPDec-05-2016 5:07 PM
Prometheus was also "fully staffed" but you can't focus on too many characters within an approx 2hr time frame or the cast narrative will lose focus.
Maybe we're seeing Ridley's habit of choosing practical effects here with 50 real people rather than 50 CGI people SW prequel style.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-05-2016 6:43 PM
I think we need to remember they could mean Production Staff too...
We have not including Rappace and Fassbender or Pearce.. 15 credited Cast... Its been said most are Couples and i kind of did a post before trying to connect couples... i think maybe we could remove Goran D. Kleut as being a part of a Couple or maybe even the Crew.
If we then say the Covenant has 14 credited cast members plus Walter (Fassbender) thats 15.... i think if they are going to give us a movie that brings back the Horror of Alien.. i cant see there being mass Xeno killings... but more like being picked off one by one or few a time... like in Alien 3
I think actually Covenant will be very much like Alien 3... very much so... as far as a lot of running and dying... rather than Aliens where a lot of the Marines died in one event (blown up by Ammo and picked off by odd Xeno) to leave a Smaller group that hold their own against the Xenos.... much like the Betty Crew in Alien Resurrection..
We also seem to be covering a bit more than Covenant lands.. explores finds David, finds Evolving Creature Hell breaks loose... they try and escape... get killed off... some survive escape but are followed by Aliens... more hell breaks loose and then get a few survivors..
If this is how the most of the movie goes and the Covenant has say 20, 30 Colonists.... i think that would require mass killings and bring us to a AVP Requiem kind of flick than Alien.
The Source did say in February 2015 that the Prometheus Sequel has a Larger Cast.. and the way it was emphasized (so the person who was in contact with source said) it was not as in just a bit larger cast... but some considerable larger cast... but they also said Prometheus 2 would have 3 Plots... and hinted one was Flash Backs with Engineers and what purpose they had.
If that Scene of Disaster Set Shot is not Props but Actual Actors/Actresses then that for start is a considerable more than Prometheus.
I am going to assume minus Walter... the Covenant Crew would consist of 12-18 Personnel. Looking at what is said about the Plot from Cast Members comments...
I will assume that 20-25% get infected chest busted.... a further 35-50% get killed by the Aliens... leaving 10-20% to die from other means and of the Covenant Crew 10-15% Survive
Patient LeechFacehuggerMember158 XPDec-06-2016 8:45 AM
Google does not translate Portuguese very well. (My wife is Brazilian).
But this sounds awesome. Sort of a simple b-movie premise (again like Alien), but will obviously have an A+ production. Fu#kin' love it. Can't wait.
Neomorph ChestbursterMember731 XPDec-06-2016 9:48 AM
That's a good way to see it, seems like they finally came to their senses XD
Amazing how quickly the production actually took (provided that AC sticks to the planned release date)
Shasta cycloneFacehuggerMember281 XPDec-06-2016 9:49 AM
in any form was it made clear why in the cave paintings shaw found showed where LV223 was and why? especially with what the engineers was doing there.
123EngineerFacehuggerMember143 XPDec-06-2016 1:01 PM
I think David has a soul. It sounds very strange but he has a consciousness and self-awareness. He feels, he thinks, he knows whats good for him...The soul continues to live after he dies ... through the influence he had on other people. His ideas and thoughts live on...
123EngineerFacehuggerMember143 XPDec-06-2016 1:08 PM
I think just one person will survive the Horror haha @BigDave
I have the feeling that this movie will be pretty badass. Regarding the Horror, the Action and the Story.
Neomorph ChestbursterMember731 XPDec-06-2016 6:06 PM
I'm not sure how you define a "soul" without using internet definitions (written by other's interpretations tbh) or by bringing religious or philosophical beliefs into it.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-07-2016 1:37 AM
Yes i think we will get one survivor for certain, and one of the Fassbender Characters too. But i am not sure if we would get more...
It depends how big the Covenant Crew is... if its the 15 listed cast members... then a 10-15% Survival rate would mean 1-2 Survivors.... i think we could get 2-3 depending on how big the crew is and what plans are in store next...
i.e does the next movie follow on the path of Daniels... or is it going to be a movie that covers events prior to Alien Covenant?
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-07-2016 1:59 AM
We kind of have the answers... in parts but no we dont have it fully... it was surely one of the Questions Shaw would ask... and maybe originally she would get some kind of answer...
Prometheus showed us that Engineers (may not be LV-223 ones) but in general they seed life in the Galaxy by those means... Sacrificial Scene... for some unknown purpose... as of yet (no concrete reasons given).
The Engineers then visit these Worlds.. or some and they continue to Evolve Life on those worlds and in regards to some over and over until we get to Humanoids..... Ridley confirmed this in a few statements... which also suggest Earth is not the only World they may have done this on.
Engineers interacted with Ancient Mankind, which somehow led to the Star Maps pointing to that System.... Ridley confirmed the Engineers visited us over and upgraded us Genetically and Technologically over thousands of years.
Many Cultures interpreted the Engineers and Worshiped them as Gods.... and they recorded the same Star Maps.
*The Map was never a Invitation....
*The Location was never where the Engineers came from...
*The Location was a place where they was working on some Evil Bio-Logical Warfare... that they intended to use on us 2000 years ago..... we dont have concrete reasons for it... we are teased at it being because Mankind was out of control and a failed experiment.... but then also that to create one must destroy.
Thats what we have and so there is never a 100% reason for the Star Maps.... only that.
*The LV-223 Engineers who was working on those Bio-Weapons did not intend us to ever reach the place and never invited us.
*The other Engineers and their Society did not come from this place.... either.
This leaves TWO Outcomes....
1) It was a warning from some Engineers to never go to this place...
2) It was at one time a Waypoint Outpost where the Engineers watched over us from, a base they would come to visit us and operate from.... but we was never intended to go there... it was a case of this is where we Watch over you from... It would be like how in a Biblical way had some depictions of Heaven being above the Earth God made it clear this is where he is from... and his Angels... and there is only limited way to get there (depends on version of Christianity based Religions) but the overall basics was that no man could just go and make his way to even off his own back...... this is why the Tower of Babel was built to try and Ascend to Heaven.... which was not allowed and so it was destroyed.
There is a 3rd option....
The Engineers are Genetic Gardeners.... if you owned a Garden, or some Land to seed Plants, Harvest or Fruit... when you wanted to experiment with these Plants/Harvest/Fruit maybe making upgrades etc.... you want to first make sure any changes you make are perfect and suitable first rather than just experiment in the Fields/Lands or experiment then seed right away... what if the new Seeds corrupt the others or have adverse effect on the others.?
What do you do?
You have a Greenhouse/Nursery Complex/Building where new experimental seeds/plants are tested and grown and when happy... then you seed them in the Fields/Land... i.e Garden.
The Engineers as Genetic Engineers could be doing the same... LV-223 is a place they experimented with Life First when upgrading and when pleased they then seed the upgrades to Earth (The Garden).
I think this 3rd theory is what i would go for.... its my main theory on that... So the Engineers are showing "where we was created from" but again its not a invitation ever at all.
The Engineers are Proud and Arrogant over their Creation and Role... its why they build monuments to their own success... and the pointing out the Star Maps is that...
They subjected Mankind, had us praise them for their creations and they pointed to us where the Miracles of our creation was based from...
But these 3 are just theories.... we have not yet been given no Reason... but they are the 3 i feel make sense... but thats not to say thats what is going on.
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-07-2016 7:37 AM
This has been a busy week for trailers being released. Tomorrow the release for the new Spider-Man comes out. I do wonder if Fox will releases Alien Covenant by the end of the week or with Assains Creed that comes out the 21st.
Very nail biting.
Neomorph ChestbursterMember731 XPDec-07-2016 8:20 AM
Indeed, the secrecy surrounding AC has been amazing in a sense I'm not sure is negative or positive imo. Probably the best option though to prevent the film being overhyped like Prometheus.
It's nonetheless brave to play it out like this in a world where you nowadays need at least 2 teaser trailers, 3-4 main trailers and 10 TV spots for a blockbuster to succeed among the competition.
I'm 100% certain that the AC trailer will be released within two weeks.
Deep SpaceFacehuggerMember320 XPDec-07-2016 8:34 AM
I think David has a soul. It sounds very strange but he has a consciousness and self-awareness. He feels, he thinks, he knows whats good for him...The soul continues to live after he dies ... through the influence he had on other people. His ideas and thoughts live on...'
I kind agree with that but . . .
'I'm not sure how you define a "soul" without using internet definitions (written by other's interpretations tbh) or by bringing religious or philosophical beliefs into it.'
To me he is just like a human in the the way 123E says - take out the 'soul' bit and I totally agree. You could possibly argue David is more self-aware than a lot of humans! But certainly, his actions have cosmic effects like ours, however small.
@BD - I'm liking your 3rd option! I suppose I'd then ask Why did they not carry out their plans? Outbreak, sabotage, war, all three or other(s) ;)
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-08-2016 5:38 AM
@Neomorph i will think they would be Marketing this movie more than the first and more people would be Aware its a Alien movie due to the Prefix Alien: and the Poster....
Not everyone over say 15 who has gone to the Cinema over the last 5 years would know what Alien Covenant is... if they was shown a trailer... but a % would have a idea... and then if you ask those what Prometheus was then a lower % of that would know they are connected.
The Alien Fans and Sci-Fi fans would know... and so its them who was disappointed with Prometheus who may not 100% get too over hyped about the movie due to the imprint Prometheus left.
I think they have given away more with AC than Prometheus... Prometheus had led fans to expect somewhat answers, but certainly more than they got.
AC is setting up to kind of Guarantee Answers which if it does not deliver i think this movie has a risk of disappointing fans too. Unless its more of a Alien movie like say Alien Resurrection.... But i think it would be something of a Cross Between Alien R and Prometheus as far as a Alieny movie goes.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-08-2016 5:44 AM
@ Deep Space...
Indeed that is another MASSIVE Question.... why did they never come back...
*Had they Forsaken us?
*Are they all dead?
*Are they some who never knew about Earth at all?
*Are there just a few left who decided it was too much trouble to continue and left us to our own path of destruction (they have created other Life on other Worlds) so if one of your many Children has turned out a Bad Egg, that you tried to correct and then punish but it proved a big cost and loss to yourself.. then maybe you just walk away and leave them to be....
But no soon as you find out that wayward child is back on your doorstep... and you know they are as troublesome as they had been.... i guess that would make you have to deal with them... Harshly....
But we see no evidence from Alien to Alien R of Engineers coming back after us.... so chances are what little remained as of Alien Covenant and Prometheus... could be even less after these movies have ran their course.
I think the term COVENANT could apply to why they have not came back... or why we dont see them in the Franchise and the last interactions they ever have was thousands of years ago.... or indeed around the events of AC.
Neomorph ChestbursterMember731 XPDec-08-2016 6:25 AM
Big_Dave, I actually find myself more and more hyped about AC despite the massive disappointment of Prometheus, because of the fact that it has new writers, a new direction, a picture of a Xeno and a new cast.
It hadn't crossed my mind before you mentioned it now that nothing was in fact hinted about the Engineers in the Alien franchise (maybe because I never consigned Prometheus to the Alien series)
This could potentially be a massive continuity error unless- like you mentioned- there's an explanation. And I hope it's a really good explanation considering the massive scope in Prometheus that covers the whole muddle of our origins(!) , while in stark contrast the Alien films are merely limited to survival horror.
That was one small step for the Alien films and an exaggerated giant leap for Prometheus to take into consideration. This vast difference doesn't mix seamlessly in terms of the overall picture.
This is just my opinion, and I might be very surprised to see a very good explanation.
BigDaveDeaconMember10324 XPDec-08-2016 7:56 AM
They backed themselves into a corner with that Plot..
Instead of the Space Jockey being some Ancient Race like the Predators.... but the Space Jockey had never been to Earth.
It was just a Alien Race (maybe Humanoid ish) who had ended up there... and they could have explored it as being involved in a War... or they came across those Eggs and merely carrying them but got infected (like Star Beast) or maybe they was going to try and destroy Worlds like Earth.
No soon as they went they Space Jockey created Mankind and are who we interpreted as Gods etc.. they came and visited us and taught us stuff then wanted to destroy us..
This Plot is MASSIVE..... Great.. Epic... but its a tricky one.. get it Correct.... Epic Franchise.... get it wrong or partially wrong and well your in a Mess..
But they have backed themselves into that Plot now... they need to try and do it some justice.
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-08-2016 9:47 AM
It will be worthy of seeing of how Scott expands and explains this universe of the Engineer and possibly those that were superior to the Engineers. Perhaps through flashbacks and through the demise of engineers and their planet. As I am sure David has found their "library", their scrolls or database that would have such information, not only about their experimentations but also that of their creators and the history behind them.
Michelle JohnstonChestbursterMember763 XPDec-08-2016 10:53 AM
Curiously in the last few weeks I have realised Ridders remarks are oblique and fuel thought, as opposed to the leaks coming out of "Hicks" on AVP Galaxy which have now dried up and actually feel quit off piste and distracting. This type of remark from Sir Ridley takes us back to the spring of this year.
How do you make David grow and become even more powerful in the narrative. Transformation (the big idea), mirroring (the Engineers) and the narrative beats (involved in a new event).
Focusing on Michaels powers as an actor to show us humanity or the absence of through David AI, David the catalyst and David the proxy engineer makes perfect sense and we can define and explore AI by watching his amoral curiosity in the mutagenised goo and experiments and see how he makes in a small way the same mistakes as the Engineers which delivers their failings in a highly personal way and then having pursued that curiosity see his reaction aided by his transformation.
We have talked about the big idea being connected to the mutagenised goo, their is another alternative Shaw has two potential "gifts" to the narrative her repaired reproductive capacity which may take its own course and her humanity. David has searched her dreams and knows them (reversing Gaff's relationship with Deckard) but has he unlocked the capacity to search her mind and acquire her humanity. I do not deny the bandaged woman's head and Davids torso in the reflection felt like a clue but would that give him a "sort of soul" which in storytelling terms would be a moral compass.
Deep SpaceFacehuggerMember320 XPDec-08-2016 12:14 PM
It hadn't crossed my mind before you mentioned it now that nothing was in fact hinted about the Engineers in the Alien franchise (maybe because I never consigned Prometheus to the Alien series)
Could this be where ALIEN 5 was going?
Neomorph ChestbursterMember731 XPDec-08-2016 3:25 PM
Sorry to be controversial here.
@Deep Space I haven't followed much news regarding Alien 5 so I can't comment on that, what I will say in all honesty though is that I wish that Blomkamp decides not to disregard Alien 3 and Resurrection. This would be extremely disrespectful to the whole production crew of both films respectively, no matter how people feel about the quality of A3 and AR.
Same applies to Prometheus even though it took an unnecessary religious and deeply philosophical dump on the franchise imo.
@Big Dave I'm sure by "get it correct" you mean being optimistic, forgiving and using a good dose of wild imagination about Prometheus. Because in all hilarity, even Lindelof couldn't explain what he wrote! There is no consistency so far, only question marks for the wrong reasons.
I've seen and read defending "Prometheus explained" videos and ambitious posts that were:
1. Different to each other. Again no consistency here but ambitious.
2. Actually very well written (some of them)
To sum this up with a quote from Bad Old Guy Makeup Guy Pearce "there's nothing"
I believe AC has the elements to stand up to the challenge of fixing the mess of Prometheus and at the same time connecting it back to Alien in a "retrofuturistic" fashion in a lack of better words. What I mean is a cool mixture of '79 horror fanservice and Ridley's view on things in the present time. I can buy that concept easily.