Apr-26-2016 5:24 PM
I really need that patch!
As I suspected...After the death of Peter and his daughter..They must have merged.
So they merged...re-branded the ships and uniforms...
Why send a colony ship?! Are they so certain they will find a habitable planet? Seems like extreme optimism.
"Yeah let's go in that direction...I'm sure in a couple of centuries we *might* find a suitable planet"
Unless they were certain of finding this world. Got some clues from somebody or something?
Yutani must have known about the cave paintings. Is David 8 broadcasting a distress signal?
Apr-26-2016 5:48 PM
I highly doubt David would possess the ability to broadcast a signal that far, but who knows! It does make a lot of sense that the two companies would merge following Peter Wetland's death, however I too am wondering now, why send a colony ship?
Perhaps the Prometheus sent out signals back to Earth saying that they found a habitable planet? Although LV-223 was far from, it could be Terraformed as we saw the Engineers having done thousands of years prior.
If this is a colony ship, that means a lot of fresh hosts for the somewhat formant Alien spore... It's gonna be absolute chaos, I can see it now. Haha
Apr-26-2016 6:10 PM
Unless BD is right ---> "Also i found Beihn's comments on he was informed Alien Covenant was set THOUSANDS of years prior to Aliens as very interesting."
And Paradise IS LV223? They are seeing LV223 thousands of years before it was destroyed? or paradise is LV426? and the Derelict didn't crash there. It was there all along.
Some time warp stuff?
Apr-26-2016 9:50 PM
Now let's analyse the hell out of that patch while we wait...
Ok, so apart from the obvious wordings we see three planets on that patch. Or possibly a planet with two moons? But one of the objects seems to have a disc around it which would only make sense if it's a planet (correct me if I'm wrong).
Anyway, the planet/moon in focus is being protected by two winged creatures.
Obviously they are cherubim (plural for cherub). Not the small plump angelic kind of guys, but the ones you'll see on top of the Ark of the Covenant (aka. the mercy seat). They were assigned to protect the ark under their wings according to the Book of Kings (Kings 8:6-7) :
"And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the Lord unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims. For the cherubims spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above."
And in Genesis(3:24) they were assigned by God to protect the Garden of Eden (Paradise) after the expulsion of Adam.
So does this mean that the crew of the Covenant are looking for something more than a planet to potentially colonize? Are they maybe searching for something based on Shaw and Holloway's studies?
Maybe this is why Weland and Yutani merge. Remember that Prometheus viral with Shaw delivering her pitch to Weyland, indicating that she was working for Yutani? Maybe Yutani was still holding on to Shaw and Holloway's studies, and managed to discover some further evidence of where the Engineers came from. In order to get there they'll need Weyland's tech again, but after the failed Prometheus mission Weyland Corp is in financial trouble and so Yutani agrees to take shares in Weyland in order to help finance the trip...
Just my thoughts...
Apr-26-2016 11:43 PM
Thanks for the info Mr. C! It's clear they're using the Ark of the Covenant as the basis for this emblem design. It's no coincidence. Given the quotes alone you referenced we can assume that the Covenant's mission is to somehow preserve and protect Paradise? Weyland-Yutani must know more than what they discovered on the Prometheus mission.
Apr-27-2016 12:15 AM
I must say though, I love how Ridley is bridging multiple religions and science together. It makes putting the puzzle pieces together much easier.
So what we know:
- The Engineers represent the Bible's Adam, who was tempted by the serpent to eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge.
- The Xenomorph represents quite literally, the Bible's serpent (Devil). How does it tempt Adam (the Engineers)? Perhaps it's very existence enticed the Engineers to know more, it is the "Perfect Organism" after all.
- The Prometheus, like the Greek Titan, put man on equal footing with their Gods. Literally, the same floor on the same planet. Tech wise, similar as well since Prometheus represented Man's ability to journey beyond Earth's confines.
Now, some can also argue that:
- Shaw represents the virgin Mary and that her child is Humanity's savior. The Deacon though? Hard to see that being Humanity's savior. Though it isn't quite a "Xenomorph"... yet.
- David could represent David and Goliath. Goliath being the Engineers. If so, we can assume David will defeat the Engineers, but for what purpose? This connection is a bit of a reach.
In the middle, we have mankind and the poor souls caught in the Mortal struggle between creations and their creators.
So, what this could mean for the Covenant? I'm trying to place a good connection to the literal Ark of the Covenant, but haven't got a solid theory yet. What do you guys think?
Apr-27-2016 4:35 AM
The Covenant Crew could be a survey team, sent out to survey possible planets to colonize.
Also, being that David (Prometheus mission) is a robot. It could be a possibility that Weyland-Yutani can track him. I'm sure he would have built in GPS and they can know where he ended up.
Apr-27-2016 5:13 AM
What I also and I am sure you guys to like to see are those pulling the strings at Weyland-Yutani...with the death of Weyland and his daughter, they or someone had to come across Peter Weylands work on the planets. Also, I would imagine that the company some how can tap into the feed of David 8. I would think his cpu can be tracked and recorded, this sent back home to a "cloud".
Also so there will be more David's in this film, it will be interesting to see if David 8 takes them over. After all, he probably sees himself as a god now...
Apr-27-2016 5:13 AM
Very Interesting News... this changes a lot... i was going to cover a number of things but dont have time at moment... so BRACE yourselves latter lol
So i will come in from the rear end... and cover my last point first.
Yes this Badge gives us massive Clues and you are all speculating about it... and so i will cover the Covenant and Ark connection latter as its a biggy...
For now while those clues could be nothing more than symbolic or not even have any relevant connection... but there is more to them than that... but maybe its not... we have no FACT to say what the Badge means, or if its hiding something?
The ONE THING it however does Guarantee is Timeframe..
This means that prior to 2104 and post 2094 the Company Merges, this is a massive clue that can discount a few theories including mine.. well some..
I would assume the Merger happens at least few years after and so at least 2095 but no latter than say 2100, it could be safe to assume the Covenant also set off on its mission at some time between 2095 and 2102.... assuming worst case as 2102 and Covenant takes as long as Prometheus did to LV-426 to get to Paradise... but this assumes Paradise is or was LV-426 which i was going to cover in this but will add it latter.
This throws out the potential theory that Covenant had set off a long time before Prometheus... it throws out maybe the other David Doppelganger being a Non-android version of himself maybe the person who David Androids where modeled after.. what a great Plot this would have been....
David wants to be more Human, meets his Human counterpart but then David has over that Human Counterpart that David is superior in every way and potentially Immortal.
The Fact the Covenant is a Weyland-Yutani Mission makes such a Plot Theory very unlikely now. And so maybe the Synthetic Emphasis is on there being Two Davids and one of them will become non-synthetic by a event in the movie.
I will come back latter to cover this a bit more.. i.e Timeline as Covenant would now have had to set off after the events of Prometheus and prior to Alien Covenant but we dont know when.. just within the 10 years the Company Merged and Covenant mission was launched.
I will fill in how this could impact the potential Location of Paradise, and maybe now link it to LV-426.... and then a counter argument at Holes that do not support this...
We cant know for sure what Technology was like post 2093 so when working out Range of Travel... i will throw the case based on Prometheus Specs and Nostramo Specs.... assuming these are maximum and as advanced as at the time... and ignore any potential Worm Holes etc... or other Engineer Methods to Travel Further.
Apr-27-2016 10:37 AM
"What I also and I am sure you guys to like to see are those pulling the strings at Weyland-Yutani"
Maybe it could be covered briefly, I am not very interested in that being that we have already seen some of the Weyland company. I am more interested in seeing the connection between the Xenos and the Engineers.
It could maybe be interesting to see other David versions or at least some sort of robots that the Weyland company has built and what purpose these robots have.
Apr-27-2016 4:56 PM
I think the Alien Universe is Huge... plenty of Scope and Fox may Milk it with Spin offs... Lets see what the Franchise was about.
1) The Xenomorph... sorry Ripley.
2) Ripley.... but surely there is more to it than one person, she is not a God, closest she ever got was being Demigod/Demon Zuul lol
3) Weyland Yutani Company... yes this could be expanded on, maybe as Marvel Agents Spin off... as basically those companies did more than just go around trying to obtain the Xenomorph... and for me the Androids are interesting.. i found David far more interesting than Ripley or any other Humans...
4) Engineers, but i feel Engineers should be the top of the List... they and the Space Jockeys, are shown to be Ancient Race of Genetic Engineers, who play a Godlike role in creation of life, Tera forming worlds.
Creating Evil Bio-Weapons is just one part of what they do, just as Weyland Yutani's pursuit of the same Bio Weapon is only a part of what they do and Weyland-Yutani History. The Scope for the Engineers and their Hierarchy and what else they have created is to my FAR MORE LARGER... than the connection to Xeno Bio-Weapon and Mankind.
Apr-27-2016 4:57 PM
Right back to earlier... now all day i had idea of how and what i was going to write... now its blank... good job as this could have been a Essay and Half ;)
Apr-27-2016 5:32 PM
So again i will tackle the Badge...
The Badge as i said shows the Alien Covenant Ship is a Weyland-Yutani Mission well it plays are role in the Technology behind it. So this shows us the Merger has happened as of 2103-2104. This means the Covenant would have set off between 2093 and 2103, i would assume it would taken a few years after Prometheus for the Merger to Happen and then Covenant Mission but i also think it would have taken more than a few years prior to Alien Covenant time line set 10 years after Prometheus.
This put to bed one theory that i had that would have to me fitted in PERFECT... that being the Synopsis and "Synthetic" David and how Ridley said Fasbender would be playing Two Roles and one is a Doppelganger. We know David is Synthetic... those who would not would be those who have never seen Prometheus.... if Fassbender was to play Two David Androids then why does Ridley not say we shall see more than One David? Ridley has never said that, there was a rumor of Multiple Davids ages ago, but Ridley never said nothing... recently when confirming Roles Fasbender plays again as far as i know... Ridley never said Two Davids.. just Two Roles.
so yes this got me thinking what if the Doppelganger was a Human likeness of David... what if the Covenant has a Human David counterpart as in maybe someone who played a role in working on the David Androids with Weyland.. and thus David was created in that persons image. i thought this when considering Ridleys, Two Roles, Doupleganger and David being mentioned as Synthetic in the Synopsis...
This was interesting as imagine when David comes face to Face with his Human Likeness... the Pinocchio David meets a Real Boy in his image... something David may have wanted in part... And yet the Human Doppelganger is not as superior to David, and is well Mortal. What a Dynamic and Spin.... this is something i would certainly had considered if i was working on the Project.
So if i assumed the above was the case, i needed to ask when was David made in the image of a Human Doppelganger? The David Model came out in the year.. 2025, 2 years after the Ted Talk, and very basic compared to the David 8... the year 2026 Weyland applies for Patent for near Human Skin Technology.... so maybe appearance wise David was near Human Looking before David 2 and so some 79 years prior to Covenant.
But the question is how Human looking, it was not until David 3 where Humans started to show signs of acceptance to the Androids, maybe their appearance? or is it how they behave and function?
2042 David 4 becomes the first Commercial Available model.
To cut this Short i was trying to Tie in when would David Androids take on a Fassbender likeness? Then from that work out what potentail year that could be...
Then Assume what if sometime after David was modeled of Fassbender Human Character in the Franchise... what if this Doppelganger then went off on the Covenant Mission. what year could that be?
The First FTL Space Exploration Vehicle "Heliades" came out in 2034 it would take 38 years for the year 2072 before the next advancements where made on a Safer and Faster Prometheus Class.
So what if Covenant set off between 2034 and 2072... that would fit in with a Doppelganger who David was based off to be on a Long Mission to a Uncharted World, a Potential Paradise.. which would be the Ultimate discovery as opposed to Worlds that needed Tera-Forming.
The Synopsis hinted Covenant may not be aware of what this World Held for them.... how could that fit in if the Ship new of Prometheus, or even went past the Zeta 2 System without discovery of Shaws SOS? If they knew about either they would be more cautious... but we could excuse a Colony Ship to be more Foolish than the Prometheus crew.
This was what i was wondering..... it would fitted in.... they could have had Covenant leave after 2073 so it would have similar Specs to Prometheus i.e the assumed 20LY Per Year Travel.. which we have to wonder if ships was faster than that by 2091 then why would Weyland not use one of them, or why if Prometheus could go faster did it take so long...? Weyland was in a rush after all and had little time left.. so if there was a faster way to get to LV-223 before 2093 he would have taken it!
But a Covenant leaving after 2073.... would have to assume David likeness to the Doppelganger meant David models where either based off another Person prior to a certain year, or they was based off a younger photo of the Doppelganger and so the Doppelganger age difference would have to be explained by a Lot of Cryo Sleep Travel or using Old Man Makeup... and i doubt Fox would want to go that route after the criticism of Old Man Weyland.
BUT ALAS.... the Covenant Weyland Yutani Badge potentially now throws that out the window... as far as David Human Doppelganger unless the Doppelganger is the Son of someone who worked with Weyland on David Project... or again this Doppelganger will be in Old Man Make up..
SO... yes Weyland Yutani Logo means we are talking the Covenant is set after 2103... which Narrows down Potential Plot.
Apr-27-2016 6:10 PM
So back to that Badge..... Weyland Yutani after 2093 but when and will we know? I would have to assume a Ball Park of 2095-2100 would be ideal for either or both Weyland-Yutani Merger and Alien Covenant setting off on its mission.
Lets assume prior to 2093 Prometheus was the fastest ship (Weyland Viral site has plot holes in that... which if you went by the Discover New Worlds as of 2093 then they have ships that would got Weyland to LV-223 faster than even a few months lol
Anyway if we take movie as Canon, there is no reason why Yutani dont have better ships.. but then why would Weyland not want to use one of theirs? Would Yutani not want them too? would they not had been better to say yes but have the ship Spy on what they was doing? And would Weyland want to protect what he could potentially find... to keep to himself, at the greater risk of having less time... Maybe...
So we cant know the Speed of the Ships after 2093... The next mentioned on in the Timeline would be Covenant, but we have yet to know its specs... so lets go to the Nostramo...
2101 Nostramo was commisioned... it could travel to LV-426 to Earth in 10 months.. Giving it a Speed of near 47LY per Year, if we assume other ships around that same time could reach upto 50LY per Year... this would mean getting to LV-426 LV-223 would take 10 months...
which if Covenant is at least in that same Spec... means it could have left in the year 2103 and got to LV-426/223 10 years after Prometheus...
What is the point in all this.... BRACE YOURSELVES lol
it is relevant....
Back to the Badge... Weyland Yutani is only a clue to the Merger, and Time Frame.. ruling out the Ship leaving prior to 2094
The other clues are the Planets... ok the motto building better worlds could mean this is just to show Weyland Yutani as a priority are all about exploring and Tera-forming, Mining and Colonizing New Worlds... and this Badge just shows a few World... there is nothing relevant to Covenant, or Prometheus..
But what if... is it more than Coincidence? Maybe it is with the winged beings around that central large World... as noted this are the same depiction of the Cherubim as they appear on the Ark of the Covenant... maybe Covenant here is not Coincidental?
Ok so lets look at that relation to Covenant.. the Cherubs... now as far as the ARK goes they was there to Guard the Ark and its Contents.
Cherubs are also referenced in this roles...
Guardians of the Tree of Life
Guardians of the Garden of Eden
Guardians of Paradise
Guardians of the Throne of God
Prometheus Sequel was set to follow Shaw and David off to Paradise the Place of the Engineers, for answers, one of which is who made Them (Engineers) and so they are off to Meet God or so they hope..
Is all this Coincidence? Or do we assume the Paradise, being place of Gods, protected by Cherubs and how that World at the Center of the Badge is Protected by Cherubs?
Is that Paradise? if so was the badge made in honor of the mission to Paradise? This would assume the Covenant must know somewhat of its mission or is the Paradise they think they are off to, simply the other kind of Paradise... as in Tranquil World rather than Place of God, and Creation?
Then we look at the Badge regardless, why does it have One Large World and Two Smaller, and why is the one at the back a Ringed Planet?
Is this thus showing us that Paradise is in the same system as the Ringed Planet Calpamos before we had no confirmation that LV-223 and LV-426 are around the same Planet, it was assumption, they could have been two separate Ringed Planets in the same or near by system.
But later it was confirmed they are (LV-223 and LV-426) both around the same planet. Comic Book Fire and Stone also confirmed this..
Does this mean Paradise is LV-223? Nope.. because well the Engineer said they are not from this place... but they could mean as far as if your from the USA and are in the UK and you say No im not from here (UK) i am from USA... but i think the Engineer implied he is not from that World/Moon.
So LV-426 is Paradise? Maybe the Badge now fits?
Well the Alien Prequel was set on LV-426.. Spaights Alien Engineers before Lindeloff came in and it was changed to another near by Moon...
Last year once Alien Covenant was revealed Ridley did say and he was maybe in regards to when they discussed a Alien Prequel before.. this could been just prior to Prometheus or other plans before that.
Ridley said he always felt that LV-426 was Paradise, but of course not Paradise to us in the traditional sense... so how can Paradise be dark and dangerous etc.... If he is talking in context to Home of the Gods and thus Gods are connected to LV-426.
So thats it then the Badge Confirms LV-426 as Paradise?
Not so fast! Next i will sugest reasons why it is not and cant be.. but then how there is a way it could be... think Terminator Genisys.. which after Weavers comments today on Alien 5 and Alien 3 means they could be Springing a Terminator Genisys Trick on us Twice!
Apr-27-2016 7:17 PM
If I'm not mistaken, but I did hear Scott say that Blade Runner and Alien share the same universe some time ago when he was talking about the films.
Apr-27-2016 7:27 PM
So Alien Prequel was going to start off on LV-426.... Ridley said he always felt LV-426 was Paradise.... Now the Badge and Symbolism confirms this?
Lets look at ways to discount this...
First... if LV-426 is Paradise and the Place the Covenant lands down on then it was a Lush World of Vegetation, Water back then and not a Baron Rock devoid of breathable atmosphere as in Alien. Can such a World that seems Hospitable become so Baron and Inhospitable within less than 20 years to Alien... YES!
Alien Engineers the World is described as Dark, Grey and can not support Human Life without any Space Suit.
But we can discount Alien Engineers as Canon, so maybe LV-426 could be a Paradise like the Location in New Zealand?
However... case point 1... Prometheus..
Holoway and the Star Map.... first of all does the Star Map Configuration show 6 Stars or 6 Planets, or a Planet and 5 Moons. This is important to determine how exactly these Match the Zeta 2 System.... and how come Holoway pointed to one particular body...
He did so in a way to indicate a Star, that has a Planet, that has ONE MOON that may sustain Life.... and they arrived there in the morning...
If this ONE MOON is not to mean One Moon but that only One Moon can potentially Support Life then do we assume this Moon is LV-223?
This would then mean by the time of Prometheus December 2093 only LV-223 was the only Place that could closely support life... if we assume and as it appears to be CANON that LV-223 and LV-426 are Moons around the same RINGED GAS GIANT then if only One Moon may be able to support Life that means Holloway was referring to either LV-223 or LV-426... but as he said we arrived there this morning in regards to the ONE MOON this would mean LV-426 is less Habitable than LV-223 and thus nothing like Paradise or what ever World Covenant is set on as far as Scenes shot in New Zealand...
We have to assume Prometheus is Canon, are they going to ignore everything from Prometheus?
So if the system that LV-223 is part of, does not have immediately near by i.e LV-426 a World that is a Paradise as far as a Place that could support life with its Environment based of the Shooting Locations in New Zealand....
Then how can LV-426 be Paradise... and how then does that Covenant Bade fit in.... it could fit in with showing LV-426 Paradise, LV-223 and then the Planet Calpamos
The Weyland Viral Timeline the Company discovered that system and LV-426 Acheron in 2039 "Weyland astronomers discover multiple moons and a ringed planet just outside the Zeta 2 Reticula System, which are possibly able to support life. Weyland expects to travel there within the century."
This shows the potential for Life.. it does not rule out LV-426 from being able to... but i would go with Holloway and how there was ONE MOON that potentially could and they arrived at that Moon (LV-223) but again maybe Holoway overlooked LV-426 but i fail to see how as they arrive near LV-223 he would miss that LV-426 is a far more habitable world.
Most references to LV-426 Acheron suggest it is a Dead Rock as of 2122. Acheron has a number of meanings that can apply to Prometheus Back Story but this is for another subject or later.
Strike 1 (or maybe not)
So how can a Baron LV-426 be Paradise... maybe there is a clue in what Micheal Beihn said about Alien Covenant and how it was set THOUSANDS of years before Aliens.
How? and could LV-426 had been like Paradise thousands of years ago... YES! maybe?
If so and if we assume Paradise, Covenant, the Badge and Cherubs who protect Paradise/Eden and Planet Formation point to LV-426 as Paradise... then how does this place be a Lush World?
Answer... either something happens that allows David to Travel Back in Time, or Engineer Ships can do this... If Engineer Ships can do this, then why have they never been back to undo things such as creation of Mankind, the Outbreak on LV-223 the failed destruction of Mankind... unless a Covenant was made to prevent this.. (come to that latter). But yes its possible... as far as Technology but then a Covenant to re-frame from trying to kill us off had occurred at some point.
So thats a theory that could work....
But we have to assume how the Hell does the Covenant arrive on a LV-426 Paradise when it is in a state of Paradise as far as Habitable Lush World?
Oh the one part of the synopsis and more so Ridleys comment about "they are going on that ship" With a new group of Travelers incoming"
So Covenant follows David and Shaw? Well with the Alien Covenant Crew confirmed as Weyland Yutani that rule out a few things..
How does the Covenant follow.. and surely they are not on board the Juggernaut but following? Here is the PROBLEM If LV-426 is Paradise, which is a short distance from LV-223 how long would a Engineer Ship get from one Moon to another? Not very long.. not even a day, not even a hour maybe? maybe even minutes.?
so for the Covenant to be following it then how can that be? David sets off Jan 1st or so 2094 when LV-426 is a rock.... it dont take David 10 years or less to get to LV-426? surely?
What about how it becomes a Paradise and not Baron? Time Travel or something... Why would David want to go back.. unless he knows the Engineers are dead.. but they was not thousands of years ago and so he knows how to jump back in Time...
But then for the Covenant to enter LV-426 Paradise it would have to maybe jump into the same Worm Hole/Time Shift that Davids Juggernaut enters..
How does such a Hole in Time and Space, occur and how long would it remain open? surely not be Alien and Aliens....? (UNLESS ITS IN A SPECIFIC PLACE). And oh dear the Sulaco enters it too, or maybe the blast on LV-426 at the end of Aliens re-opens it so one Sulaco passes through into a Parallel universe Alien 5... while the other carries on to Alien 3
Could this Link Alien Covenant and Alien 5... remember i said remember Terminator Genisys lol
But how did the Covenant knew Davids ship went through this opening that allowed Time Travel? a worm hole that you come out of the other end... in the same place but thousands of years prior... the IDEA WORKS! a COVENANT with the Engineers could explain why we dont see them bother to destroy us again.
But how does the Covenant know where Davids ship went?...
Or does David stay on LV-223 do some research, then LV-426 and then he figures out what happened... and then he makes the TIME SHIFT Jump... but just as Covenant is entering the System.... or maybe he sees the Covenant and he goes back in time to undo something but Covenant slips through the back Door...
Having David hanging around for 10 years on LV-223 and LV-426 and then somehow triggering a event that throws the ship back in time... just as Covenant is in bound WOULD AGAIN Fix this..!
So again this avoids Strike 2? and Strike 1?
Nope because here Comes Strike 3!
If we take the last theory which could work... either which way.. (Space Time Hole/Tear is open for years after David passed and Covenant passes through... or David has been hanging about for a while and only enters/creates it just as the Covenant is incoming).
Then why would the Crew of the Covenant be thinking they are arriving at Uncharted Paradise...
Why would they be in that system as David enters a Time Shift or they enter the remains of a Time Shift... when surely in the timeline of the Covenant entering that system LV-426 is not Paradise... Unless LV-223 is this Paradise.. but surely Weyland Yutani would know thats not quite the case?
Unless we got a first attempt of a Order 937 on our Hands? But then would they not intercept Shaws SOS... if they do would they not want to be asking Questions about Shaw in the movie... if they either detect the SOS, or if they are aware of the fate of Prometheus.
I would suggest the Synopsis points to them being non the wiser and that they find David as a surprise... as they thought they was the first to discover a uncharted Paradise... when LV-223 is Charted... maybe covered up and LV-426 is not a Paradise.
So while the Weyland Yutani Badge can give us clues to allude to Paradise as LV-426 i have came up with 3 Strikes against it and even a Final Nail in the Coffin.. or maybe not!
However i feel the Uncharted Paradise, and lets see this part "Bound for a remote planet on the far side of the galaxy"
I dont think LV-223/426 at 39 Lights years is the Far side of the Galaxy... and both are not a Planet..
I would assume 1) Engineers are from a Planet and not a moon, and 2) while they was not stupid enough to build those Weapons on their own Doorstep.... (LV-223) i still think LV-426 is still a bit to close for comfort as far as messing about with stuff... this would be like taking a Dangerous Experiment from out of the House and into the Garage
What do you guys think?
Apr-27-2016 7:29 PM
Yes i think he is loosely trying to tie them in somehow... Blade Runner and Alien as far as same universe... but how far this connection is could be any ones guess.
Apr-27-2016 7:31 PM
Next Step will be to take a look at COVENANT in terms of the meaning as far as a Deal, maybe to re-frame from between God and his Creations in context to the Bible... and how this fits in with Prometheus and maybe Greek Mythos..
It could go some way to explain why after trying to destroy us the Engineers then stopped.
Apr-28-2016 4:31 AM
Taking away Covenant in regards to the Badge and relation to the Ark of Covenant Cherubs and thus pointing to Guards of Paradise and thus the Cherubs Guarding Paradise or a Covenant on Paradise.
The other way to look at Covenant would be via its meaning.. which for the most part applies to a agreement, contract, settlement, arrangement, promise, treaty or Pact/Vow.
If we look at it in context to the Gods Theme well Creators then it is a Agreement Between God and his people a deal that usually means to refrain from something.
Examples in bible... just use a few.
*Noah a Covenant made to him and his descendants that God will never Flood the Earth again. Genesis Flood.
*Mosses God Gives Noah the 10 Commandments and Later the Ark of the Covenant to store them. Moses deal in this would be to have his People obey the 10 Commandments and in-return Moses People (Jews) who are also Gods Chosen will be given a Promised Land and Freedom. Exodus
Note in these main Two there is a Ark, both are different however.
*New Covenant this between Jesus Christ and his followers, in that his Sacrifice would allow those who follow him and choose Christ as Lord and Savior will be Granted Eternal Life.
So we see a lot of the Time, it is a deal between God who provide something for his Children or Chosen in return for Worship. That provided Mankind Stick to its side of the Bargain God sticks to his.
With Noah, God only said he would never Flood the World Again... that does not mean he would use other means to destroy Life on Earth.
Trying to put it into context of Prometheus, and Alien Covenant, we have to assume the Namesake is not here for no reason.. Covenant has to play some role in the Movies Plot and Theme, even if it is as vague and none literal just as Prometheus Myhtos
Looking at Prometheus and Alien Franchise we have to consider what is going on as far as the Connections to Creators and Gods or who Mankind may have interpreted as Gods.
The Engineers Created mankind, played a role in our Evolution and Teaching us Stuff, the Engineers either did this themselves or they are bound by a Hierarchy.
But at some point the Engineers (or faction) either, or was ordered to... Create something to Destroy Mankind, or Replace Us.... the movie Franchise maybe hints that something had happened where Mankind displeased the Engineers/Hierarchy or they realized we was a experiment that had ran its course and did not turn out the way intended... (yes there could be a bigger darker Agenda behind it all).
So we can gather these Engineers played a part in the creation, visitation and evolving us both Technologically and Genetically over Thousands of Years....
But then they had reached a point when they had created something Horrid and Evil that would bring about the End of Mankind.... WHY we dont know... WHEN well about 2000 years or so ago....
But something happened during this, Mankind was not destroyed and the Engineers seemed for the most part to not come back to us, they had disappeared from our lives.....
Why, How Come? Was they all destroyed? If not then did the Hierarchy know of our creation and intended Destruction? If so then why did they never come back?
Perhaps a Covenant was made to refrain from such Actions... why who knows.. but it would fit as far as explain why they never came back.
If we assume in real life (and i dont want this to be debate about Religion and if its true) Lets say there was something more than Fables to the Greek Gods, The Sumerians, the Mayans, the Egyptian Gods and yes God of the (Bible and Koran).... but they where more Omnipresent and Monotheistic.
Lets say if all these had a Element of Truth... the Ancient Aliens Connection which Prometheus was fundamentally based off... Then how come these Ancient Gods, in particular the Polytheistic Ones never came back or are not in our Lives now?
Maybe there was a point they got Fed up of us and decided to leave us to our own Downfall.... or they was destroyed in a Civil War with no Winners?
This could be what has happened with the Engineers etc in Prometheus... what ever is left of them, simply has decided to not bother with us and leave us to our own devices...
Maybe they made a Covenant between themselves to leave us to be.. and move on and just leave us as a failed experiment that would eventually see to our own demise in a matter of thousands of years and so not worth them trying to destroy us after the cost of the last attempt?
Maybe they made a Covenant to leave us to be, with some of Ancient Mankind?
Finally maybe the Covenant comes after the events of Prometheus.. or a New Covenant...Because if the Engineers as above decided to refrain from destroying us, and coming to visit us and basically give up on us and leave us to our own downward path... (as well they have created life on other Worlds, maybe its better to just cut us off).
I felt his is what the Last Engineer was... but no soon as he saw Mankind could reach the Stars, create Life in their own Image, that can communicate and use Engineers Technology the Engineer knew then that Mankind has to be stopped it cant get its hands on Engineer Tech or be allowed to roam the Galaxy and have us INFECT other Worlds with our Corrupt and Greedy Nature.
Thus Likewise... no Sooner as David arrives at Paradise provided their are Engineers or Hierarchy left .. this would be a Game Changer... how would they react?
What if they find out David is a creation of Mankind, how would they perceive him? Would they now consider Mankind Once Again a Treat now they have Managed to get to the Stars and use Engineer Technology...
What ever Covenant they made prior.... how can they stick to this now....
Does some event lead to a New Covenant between David and the Engineers? Maybe David pleads with them and makes a Deal that if they Grant David a Gift to make him Godlike... he would for fill and finish off what the Engineers intended as far as destroy Mankind.
so the Engineers etc do not have to get their hands Dirty.... this theory may be off... but could work... it could also work in a way that David has a Agenda... maybe he then can set up events to allow for the destruction of Mankind... via the Xenomorph... and he sets off a Signal and Communicates with other Androids and Computers.... so that a New Dawn where Androids would Take over could happen... and so behind the Scenes David is pulling the Strings and not Weyland-Yutani they are prawns in his Goal to Destroy Mankind... (Does everyone not want their Parents dead)
Yes this is all a bit Terminator... and a bit Matrix but who knows?
Apr-28-2016 4:36 AM
Covenant could also apply to a Pact between Engineers and Mankind, that was broken by Mankind and thus called for the Program to Create Bio-Weapons to destroy us....
Thus in context of the Movie... Alien Covenant could be the start of how they show us WHY they created the Evil Bio Weapons... that is because a Covenant was Broken between them and Mankind?
I think one of those scenarios mentioned over the last Two Posts has to be close to the Ball Park as far as Covenant meaning in context of the Franchise and Engineers.
Apr-29-2016 6:02 AM
The Covenant is just the name of the ship, it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with the story but rather with the crew. What if the ship has importance? I imagine that all the engineers are long since gone and dead but David 8 knows much since he has been there for about 30 years. Thus, this crew wondered in space for years, looking for paradise, much like the Jews wandered in the desert for 40 years.
Just a thought...I thought I go a different route.
Apr-29-2016 6:14 AM
Also things to consider...
How does the crew come about this planet? The planet that David happens to be on? By sheer luck or were they directed to go there much like the Nostromo was re-routed to LV426? With Yutani merged in, I'm sure they got their hands on Weyland's research and data that was collected.
Apr-29-2016 6:29 AM
That is what i was thinking... the Synopsis hinted the Crew (which is Colony Ship) were hopping to find UNCHARTED Paradise (means no one has been there yet to the official accounts that is). But they find David on his own.
This to me made me wonder.... did a Company survey a potential Earth Like World... a World that would not need Tera-forming.... and so off went a mission to check this World out and it was via Coincidence they found David... when they expected to be the first to set foot on that World... i thought they did not know it as Paradise in relation to place of Creation/Gods etc but Paradise as in a Tropical Place that is Tranquil... Much like how New Zealand could be seen as a Paradise compared to some Baron Desert Place like Sudan..
But with the reveal of the Weyland Yutani emblem... then the Covenant set off on that mission years after Prometheus and this rules out things... maybe the crew know about LV-223 and Prometheus... but i dont think so... that would be lame... i think however someone on the ship or behind the mission knows more..
So the Covenant are off to a World, without knowing what is in store... but the company does... like in Alien and Order 937
Alien Covenant is set 10 years latter.... we have to assume 10 years when it arrives at the World that David is on... how long David has been is anyone's guess... I did think it would not be with the Covenant following behind... as i have covered this on one of the posts i think this one..
But now who knows..
Apr-29-2016 6:51 AM
As for the Name.... i think the Name Covenant, and now especially with the Badge... i think these are more than just random... i think they are to apply to the Plot... but how far and deep we wont know yet.... i have explained this.. before my take and i think again in this Topic.
Prometheus was more than a Name Sake... how far who knows... hints are it could be deeper than shown... and that a sequel could show this.. Here is what we got*
*Weyland and Ted Talk, now common viewers would maybe not known about the Bonus Ted Talk speech about Titan Prometheus and Mankind... and mainly about Prometheus gave us our first piece of Technology Fire... which he was then punished for. Weylands speech was about how far mankind has come Technologically since then.
*Prometheus Myth as far as Ancient Star Maps, of Mankind and Ancient Gods.. of which Prometheus was a Greek Titan.. the movie was trying to show that the Engineers visited us, and in interviews Ridley said they had came back to Evolve us both Genetically and Technologically.
Prometheus Titan, played a big role in the creation of Mankind in the Greek Mythos aswell as Teaching Mankind a lot of our Knowledge. This fits in with the Plot they was drawing us down the path with as far as Engineers.
*Prometheus Tale, is also about Betrayal and Rebellion... Prometheus a Titan, Brother of Cronus (Father of Zues) Helped Zeus to overthrow the Titans... without Prometheus's Betrayal maybe the Olympians would never had Won?
But then Prometheus also did the same to Zeus, before he took Children of the Titans side (Cronus Children) in the Rebellion and Overthrowing of Cronus and the Titans... but then he latter took Mankinds side against Zeus.
Rebellion is a key theme... also bare in mind Davids comment.. does everyone not want their Parents Dead...? Well in Greek Mythology that was indeed the common case..
Cronus Rebelled against his Father and Overthrown him... killed him.... he was warned one of his own Children would do so to him... so he Ate all his Children but Zeus was hidden and replaced bya Rock..
Zeus Rose to Power and overthrew Cronus (with Cronus Brother Prometheus help) But even Zeus was aware that a off spring of himself would one day overthrow him too..
The whole Rebellion of Son (usually most highest/powerful) against Father ran in many Generations... in the Greek Mythos... and indeed this connects to the Bible.... God vs Satan... few differences but broad themes are same.
If we go to Prometheus.. we see Engineers, create Mankind... we upset them.. maybe Rebelled, so they wanted us dead (but did we kill them?) the next Generation of creation in the same image as creators is then David... in our Image and we see seeds of him Rebelling against Mankind... his creator...
Shaw wondered... just because the Engineers created us and are Mortal... who created them? And so maybe the Rebellion against Creator did not start with Mankind or End with David and maybe the Engineers rebelled against their creators.... this could maybe explain a lot...
So yes PROMETHEUS was more than just a Name of the Ship... it had a baring on the Plot... how deep depended and could got deeper in a sequel.
Thus i think COVENANT would also play some role as far as the Plot... i explained what i think on this Topic above... in relation to a Covenant maybe between Engineers and Each other.. thousands of years ago... or their creators... or even Engineers and Mankind, or Engineers creators and Mankind...
But also it could be in context of a Event after Prometheus and maybe a Covenant between David and Engineers or David and something or someone else...
I think its a past Covenant, that was broken but we can see a new one take its place.
Apr-29-2016 7:00 AM
Another possibility was that the Engineers created the bio-weapons to break free from their "gods"...and in doing so, authored their demise. Could these engineers want to be free from their service to the ones that used them. So, all hell breaks loose on their home world and thus, they kill themselves with the very weapons they wanted to use on others.
Apr-29-2016 7:02 AM
Also read that Fassbender will be playing multiple roles...as in multiple David's. I'm assuming the Covenant has a few androids on board and I wonder just how many people aside from the main crew are on this ship.
Apr-29-2016 3:31 PM
@Bigdave, there is some continuation here from the Shaw thread.
Weyland Yutani break their covenant of building better worlds by pursuing their continuously covert agenda of harnessing ALIEN technology by sending the Covenant on a seemingly moral mission when in fact the synthetic on board is aware of Shaw's transmission and or a bait/signal from David 8.
Theme 2 The Engineers have broken their covenant with their makers and have fallen and Paradise is now lost some thing David can exploit.
Theme 3 David 8 rebuild is as Ridders said a big idea and he is now driving the narrative and may now be wound into the refining and developing of outcome of playing with fire. As David said, he wanted to kill his parent and move on and in order to create one needs to destroy. David may have broken his covenant with Shaw
David who has come to Paradise ahead of Covenant will mediate the answers as to why the specific Zeno life cycle was created. In the Prometheus commentary Sir Ridley describes the Deacon life cycle as early days first stages. 10 years enables evolution to have occurred and provides a legitimate reason for introducing the specifically familiar Zeno Life Cycle. The ten years is not an accident anymore than the Covenant arriving on Paradise the delay enables for a credible positioning of the plot point beginning.
The recurring application of breaking Covenants (the ships name) and falls from grace works in the same way that Prometheus (the ships name) was a morality tale with multiple applications of the mythos. Curiously the battle between the Titans and the Gods lasted ten years.
Put simply its not just the name of the ship.
Apr-29-2016 3:36 PM
Well we cant be sure for now... Officially Crew is 9 + a David... But then thats not to say that is the Crew some of the Cast may not even be the Crew of the Ship or that Ship but its safe to assume they are.
There been rumours of Gun Battle with Weyland-Yutani Security and Scientists but this could have been as far as against some Horror found on Paradise and not Human vs Human Battle. Some who read this report that was Eye witness to Shooting on set... Then thought is this how Weyland and Yutani Merge.... But the New Logo shows there would be no Weyland VS Yutani at all as they are at the time of the movie a Single Company.
Apr-29-2016 3:51 PM
As far as the Bio-Weapon... again who knows... but Rebellion seems a key theme in the Prometheus Franchise... where the Hierarchy is as follows... Engineers ==> Mankind ==> David Androids
This is only as far as a Literal Family Tree.... if we look at Engineers being Davids Grandparents.... we dont know how many layers occur prior to the Engineers... i.e Elders ==> Engineers and who comes before the Elders.
Its all very open... but i think the Theme of Creator/Creation Rebellion is key, and maybe Davids "does everyone not want their Parents Dead"
So maybe the Xeno was a Tool for this...a Weapon in this conflict... either a Engineers... for use on their creators and/or us... or a earlier kind of Bio-Weapon intended on the Engineers that back fired, and Engineers then tried to use it by Re-Weaponizing it to use and it back fired again..
So yes its possible... and to me indeed the Prometheus Fresco is indeed more like the Greek Prometheus Fresco.. (Punishment) replace Eagle with Xeno related Ancestor.
Also if we are going by the Bible loosely and Paradise Lost, then God turned the Fallen Angels into Serpents/Dragons..
If there was any element of Truth... to the Source i had... what was interesting is one of the vague clues they said was that "Mankind play more of a role in the creation of the Xeno"
If thats true, well how and it could be a number of ways, maybe the basic one that fits with what we have seen is in a way that its the Actions of Mankind that cause it... i.e if the Engineers where Happy with us then they would not have created the Bio-Weapon... but then maybe its a tease at a more hands on role?
But again until either Covenant covers same kinds of things, or the Paglen/Green drafts come to light, then we cant consider the source at all...
So that comment could be anything if was true... much like Ridley say Covenant will show us how THEY (Engineers) created the Xeno and Why..... but this could just mean the Biology .... i.e David played a role in the creation of the Deacon at the end of Prometheus... Shaw and maybe Holloway play a role, but it was David who set off the events.... but ULTIMATELY... the Engineers still created the Deacon as it was created with their Biology...
But yep as far as Xeno and Rebellion goes who knows.... if we consider the Ancient Aliens links... then if we consider the Anunnaki then there was a lower cast the Igigi.... they did the Chores for the Anunnaki until they Rebelled... and so the Anunnaki created Mankind as a replacement... This could indeed be whats happening too in Prometheus.
The Gods (Engineers) where Angry .... maybe more like Jealous?
Apr-29-2016 4:07 PM
Yes i can agree with that, totally...
I think a big puzzle is still the Time frame... and Location of Paradise...
For years it seemed the Space Jockey had been on LV-426 for a long time... Ridley said thousands of years old.. Ancient a while back... this could mean as far as how old the Space Jockey is and not how long he been there... but if this is taken as Fact.. then it means the Space Jockey was a Ancient being, but does not have to mean he was on LV-426 for that long.
Ridley had also said the Derelict had been there for thousands of years, and he also at another point came out and said the Derelict and Space Jockey event occurred within a few hundred years of the LV-223 Outbreak... 2000 years ago.
Is the 2000 years ago outbreak and connection just Coincidence?
But again these comments are not in the Movie and so any Answers can be changed from any ideas they had before... And so also the Space Jockey could be changed from being a Engineer or related.. even though Ridley said they was brothers.
They have freedom to Change the Plot how they want, they could even have it the Predators are creators of the Engineers lol.... so what i am saying is nothing concrete in the Franchise has yet Confirmed how long the Derelict has been there, or how/when and why it got there and who was the Pilot.
I just hope they find a explanation that fits and makes sense... Especially if they go the route that LV-426 is Paradise... but we dont know yet the location... number of flaws that dont support this that i covered near the start of the Topic... but few new clues that could.. (Covenant Badge).
Again the source i had and again we may never know if it was True now.. they said Paradise was a Large Planet... and located in the Constellation of Ophiuchus and that it was about either 600 LY or 600 Parsecs from Earth.... thats 600LY or so or 1950LY or so
Again unless Alien Covenant is set in similar place and distance or we see Green/Paglens Draft that who knows and maybe we will never know.
Apr-29-2016 4:27 PM
I know bit off Topic..... but i never really knew much of Ophiuchus at all... only after i uploaded this information... that someone mentioned some stuff... and so i looked into it.. and found out some interesting things..
*13th Zodiac Sign (13 for Bad luck)
* Linked to Serpent
* Linked to place of Gods, in more than one Culture
* Mentioned in Paradise Lost (Satan was seen flying through)
* Place of the great Oracle
* Place of Healing and Death (Serpent) which is linked to Life/Death
* Place Holds the secrets to Immortality (Weylands ambition)
They also said as well as distance.... the Planet was Large and Blue, as far as Concept.... but also Concept of Nebula near by... again who knows. But they said the location was near the Center of the Galaxy..
Earth is about 25-26'000 LY from the Center of Milky way but they could have meant as far as the Galactic Plane.... which most of Ophiuchus lies along.
Apr-29-2016 6:45 PM
I'd like the Alien universe to expand. Right know we have Earth, LV223 and LV426. With FTL, the Engineers have probably spread to just about all habitable planets/moons. The galaxy is probably very much dead.....and the Earth is next.
Sort of like Alastair Reynolds The Inhibitors.
Apr-30-2016 4:29 AM
I am betting that Danny McBride will be the Yaphat Koto (Parker) of this film...and he will probably die a violent long death....lol...cause it's Danny McBride.
May-12-2016 4:33 AM
I like the badge. It's a lot like the badge in ALIEN. When I first saw it I thought that maybe the two angels are meant to symbolise Weylan-Yutani merging to "Build Better Worlds."
But the Ark of the Covenant thing makes more sense.